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Scruffy

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Join date
29-Nov-2005
Last activity
31-May-2016
Posts
625

Post History

Post
#161529
Topic
Why do they go into exile?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161529/action/topic#161529
Time
The Jedis' whole continuity-of-governance plan sucks. They don't attempt to rally with the survivors, leaving the survivors to be hunted down and turned or killed by Vader (per EU). They don't attempt a third strike against the Emperor. They hide from the Rebellion almost as effectively as they hid from the Empire. They don't fight the propaganda war. They don't seem to have substantial caches of weapons or equipment. They don't attempt to create any new Jedi while waiting for Luke and Leia to grow up. They would've been seriously boned if Luke died in a T-16 accident or Leia was killed on one of her "mercy missions."

Their whole "going into exile" plan was probably based on religious, not pragmatic, reasons. To the Jedi mind, exile was probably the only thing that made sense at that point. Being raised in a fanatical order of super-powered warrior-monks must not develop much creative thinking.
Post
#161521
Topic
When did you give up with the Prequels, TPM, AOTC, or ROTS?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161521/action/topic#161521
Time
I posted a smallish rant in the Phantom Menace Initial Reactions thread. So, yeah, TPM was a big clue-by-four to me.

As for Han and Leia clearing up their misunderstanding, that's classic comedy. A pair of lovers is kept apart by some misunderstanding, but united at the end. It worked for Wilde, it worked for Shakespeare, and probably also Moliere and Plautus and lots of other people I ignored in school. I think it even worked for Lucas. The actors are capable, the lines are realistic, the music is fitting, it's photographed well. I don't really see what the problem is.
Post
#161168
Topic
What are the worst lines of dialogue from the 6 SW films?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161168/action/topic#161168
Time
Obi-Wan: Sith Lords are our speciality
(was that a joke? He's talking as if this was some kind of restaurant)


I think it's a self-deprecating joke. The Jedi have encountered three Sith Lords in the last 1000 years. The first one took on two Jedi at once and killed a master before a padawan brought him down by a fluke of good luck. The second fought three Jedi, including two masters, to a standstill before escaping. The third got elected head of the government and they never figured out he was a Sith, even after Darth Tyrannous told them.

Sort of like, "How did this happen? We're smarter than this." It's clear that the Jedi are beginning to realize they're idiots, so they make light of it as they rush towards their own destruction.
Post
#160823
Topic
What are the worst lines of dialogue from the 6 SW films?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160823/action/topic#160823
Time
RotS is fresh in my mind, so here's a few from that.

RotS:

Anakin: I've grown twice as powerful since the last time we fought.
Dooku: Twice the pride, twice the fall (or something like that).
(It's bad enough that the Jedi go around quantifying their power, but then both the Jedi and the Sith use that as the basis for their lame repartee.)

Palpatine: ummwhaggahaROOOOOO!!!
(Whatever he said when he blew Mace out the window.)

Anakin: You're talking like a Separatist!
Obi-Wan: My loyalties are to the REPUBLIC, to deMOCracy!
Padme: So this is how liberty dies -- with thunderous applause.
(Political drama can be really interesting. Unfortunately, Lucas thinks throwing in a few polisci 101 words is the same thing as writing political drama, or saying something meaningful about political philosophy. It's not. One could say a lot about Lucas's confusion between democracy and republicanism, but let's save that for another day.)
Post
#160738
Topic
Back in Time
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160738/action/topic#160738
Time
I wouldn't want to go too far back, because the past is a nasty, brutal place. Go more than a few decades back, and you'll probably get some debilitating disease like polio that they don't innoculate against in the present. Medical technology is primitive, the information technology infrastructure is all but nonexistent, there's racism, there's the threat of nuclear war, modern conveniences are nowhere to be found or priced so high only the rich can afford them, environmental and health standards are much lower, et cetera. As a middle class person today, my standard of living must be comparable to that of the very rich in the 1970s by any number of measures.

I chose the '80s, because I lived through them the first time, and I'd probably survive a second go-round. I also think that viewing my formative decade through adult eyes would help me better understand myself in a way that temporal tourism to some alien decade wouldn't. Or maybe I just want to get all those Masters of the Universe figures my mom sold at garage sales and lock them away somewhere safe. (sniff) Terror-claw Skeletor, where are you?
Post
#160560
Topic
Empire '97 SE
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160560/action/topic#160560
Time
... Yeah... but you know, Star Wars is just Space Opera... Boba = Jango's clone , so, Boba voice = Jango voice...
You know, when I'm watching Star Wars, I'm not wondering about all those scientist or rational explainations, and I think I'm right, cause when we see lightsabers and sound in space, well, we know that we're not watching an ultra-realistic sci-fi movie...


Wow. If you thought I was being somehow "scientific" or looking at SW as "ultra-realistic," then people like Curtis Saxton, Mike Wong, Brian Young, or Wayne Poe would blow your mind. (Incidentally, Saxton's "scientific, ultra-realistic" take on Star Wars is what got him a job working on the Incredible Cross-Sections, and I'm pretty sure he mentioned those other guys in the acknowledgements.)
Post
#160559
Topic
Info Wanted: 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit?' - has anyone done the uncensored version?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160559/action/topic#160559
Time
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Ash595 ... They cut one of the shorts, too? DVDfile.com missed that one; they're usually very good at noticing cuts made to DVDs. What was the nature of the cut? The third one was the one in the forest, right?

TR47 ... I used the search function before posting, but it didn't find anything to do with 'rabbit.' Then again, it didn't find this thread tonight, so maybe it's broken. Or maybe the thread disappeared due to fear of the Mouse?

Darth Enzo ... I am eagerly awaiting the end product. I have a number of blank DVDs if that will help jump-start distribution when the time comes.

ocpmovie ... I'm rather fond of the novel, actually. Considering that it's out of print and -- at least for me -- very, very difficult to find, I was considering OCR-ing it and formatting it real nice. Maybe including it with the putative DVD.

ricarleitte ... I think the pig head sequence on the DVD is full frame. I hope the LD was OAR?
Post
#160549
Topic
Empire '97 SE
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160549/action/topic#160549
Time
About Vader's Shuttle, it doesn't disturb me, but I must say that those scenes are pretty useless...
Concerning Boba's voice, I prefer the original voice, but for the sense, Boba having Jango's voice, well, it's pretty understandable, no?


Concerning the shuttle, "disturbing" is exactly the phrase I'd use. To one who is use to the terse delivery of, "Bring my shuttle," the laconic delivery and almost iambic pentameter of, "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival," is disturbing. As is seeing the Death Star II hangar bay and hearing John Williams's score altered. I suppose that if you're not familiar with O-ESB or the score all that may seem perfectly natural, but if you are, it all seems just a bit off. (It's also unnecessary, both for the audience and for Vader. Shouldn't his SD always be prepared for his arrival? What preparations could possibly be necessary, or warranted? Did he expect them to set up a mariachi band in full mess dress to greet him?)

Concerning Boba's voice, it only makes sense if you make certain assumptions about what happened to Boba after Jango died. If he was taken in by other Mandalorians (?) like his father, or clonetroopers, he would've kept his accent. If Boba struck out on his own, the primary influence on his speech patterns would've been the media, which was probably dominated by the Core World accents like Coruscanti and Corellian. Although his Mandalorian accent might not have been lost entirely, it would have been attenuated, and he probably would've suppressed it when speaking to Core Worlders like Vader. I've heard that's what Morrison did when revoicing the OT, trying to blend the original Boba voice with his own.
Post
#160290
Topic
SW.com's apologetic press release (re the 2005 OT SE re-release set)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160290/action/topic#160290
Time
Because Lucas's original vision was for both full and widescreen versions of the trilogy. It's the ways the trilogy was meant to be seen, he just didn't have the technology to screen it in 1.33:1 twenty years ago. Now that technology has advanced, he can crop, pan, and scan the Star Wars trilogy the way he envisioned all those years ago. Or not, if you get the widescreen version.
Post
#160278
Topic
SW.com's apologetic press release (re the 2005 OT SE re-release set)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160278/action/topic#160278
Time
I see a bunch of confused grandmothers getting this set for their grandkids for Christmas, then the grandkids bursting into tears. "This isn't the one I wanted Grammy!"

Am I alone in imagining this? Probably. I just think it's kind of rotten that Lucasfilm is releasing an inferior version of an existing product, in similar packaging, just in time for Christmas. And then they give us a half-hearted excuse, "It's for people who want the Star Wars movies but without the value-added material, so they can save money!" But they're still bundling all three movies together, not selling them individually. For, you know, people who want one or two Star Wars movies, without paying for the value-added material of the rest.

(If you think there's no demand for individual SW movies, check out Amazon's DVD section -- some enterprising entrepreneurs are splitting up the box sets and selling the individual movies for $20 apiece, getting them a nice little profit.)
Post
#160276
Topic
RotS: Evolutionary design in the prequels and the "Vader Outfit"
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160276/action/topic#160276
Time
The clone/stormtroopers' armor is just a battle uniform, and those change over time, due to changing tastes and technology. Compare a US Army ACU of today to the BDUs of twenty years ago; different camouflage pattern, design, tactical vests, kevlar, boots, etc. It makes sense that stormtrooper armor would evolve quickly, especially given the rapidly changing military and political climate of the late Old Republic and the Empire.

Vader's outfit, on the other hand, is his sole outward identity. It's his face to the universe, and it should remain the same throughout his life -- aside from the occasional repairwork, upgrade to the internal gadgetry, and polishing.

Though I do wonder why Palpatine had such a suit handy, and whether its appearance had any meaning. It looks a little bit like Warb Null, the Naddist enforcer on Onderon. But Palpatine's Sith traditions, as a whole, seem divorced from the ancient Sith; he goes so far as to insult the Lords on Korriban near the end of his life. Vader was more in touch with the original Sith, as there was a throne prepared for him on Korriban.

Of course, if Vader's outfit screamed "DARK LORD OF THE SITH," everyone in the Galaxy would soon know the true source of his power and patronage. Maybe he just wore a standard issue Sav-a-Life Suit(TM) from Republic MedTek(TM).
Post
#160271
Topic
Found this quote from Lucas about changing the Original SW
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160271/action/topic#160271
Time
I'm willing to buy that the OOT Star Wars was only 25% done. But the changes he made affect only about 2% of the film. Does that mean that the DVD Star Wars is only 27% done? When's he gonna do the 73% that's still missing? What, conceptually, is still missing? What's left to change? The performances? The music? The production design?

If OOT Star Wars was only 25% done, that means that the "real" Star Wars is more unlike the OOT than like it.
Post
#159897
Topic
George Lucas is Darth Vader
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159897/action/topic#159897
Time
Anyway, since George is so similar to Vader, he just needs to be "redeemed" by someone so he can release the OOT. Someone close to him will need to bring him back from the dark side and remember his true self as the director of a movie that was made in the 70's and does not need to look like a film made in the 21st century.


Ah, but Luke wasn't close to Vader. They were virtual strangers. Aside from what intelligence files he could read, and what he divined through the Force, Vader knew nothing about Luke. Almost everything Luke had ever been told about Vader, either by Owen or Ben, was a lie; his sister had met the man, but probably had nothing good to say about the encounter. Therefore, we don't need someone close to Lucas to redeem him, we need a complete stranger who can get in close and influence him. Maybe it could even be ... no, let's not go there.

BTW, if Lucas is Vader, who is Palpatine?
Post
#159614
Topic
It's official, George is really losing it (claims more changes to the OT to come...)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159614/action/topic#159614
Time
Tolkien's academic career hardly brought him great riches or fame. Remember how he answered the question, "Art or money?"

Lucas is typically compared to Tolkien because Lucas spent six movies trying to develop a character who could rightfully be called "Dark Lord," but never came up with a Morgoth, Sauron, or even a Tevildo, Prince of Cats. Also, one could draw some comparisons between Beren Erchamion and Luke Skywalker. Except Luke ended up being the Princess's brother, so he failed to sire a heroic line upon her. I guess there's some Turin Turambar in him, too.
Post
#159612
Topic
Return of the Jedi: A Generational Conflict
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159612/action/topic#159612
Time
Lucas may have replaced Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christiansen to increase the superficial similarity between the prequel trilogy and the Star Wars trilogy, but I doubt that was the only reason. Between 1999 and 2005, it was frequently reported that the nature of Force ghosts would be a major plot point to be resolved by the prequels. Ultimately, Lucas failed to provide a satisfying resolution to this plot, perhaps due to Liam Neeson's nonparticipation in RotS. (I have my own theories regarding Neeson and Qui-Gon Jinn's role in the prequels, but that's for another thread.) When he composed the list of substantive changes to be made to the Star Wars trilogy ca. 2004, Lucas still thought Force ghosts would be a major point in RotS. So, the change to a Force ghost in RotJ (DVD) was not haphazard; it was something he had been thinking about for some time, perhaps since he wrote The Phantom Menace. It is very probable that the insertion of Christiansen reflects a change in Lucas's conception of the Force. This change in the Force necessitates reconsidering the conflict between Luke and Obi-wan, and who was ultimately right.

Of course, there may be more at play here than Lucas simply changing his mind, or clarifying a previous point, about how the Force works. The new resolution to the Luke--Obi-wan conflict represents a radically different worldview than the resolution of 1983. It emphasizes the primacy of elders' wisdom over youthful qualities (naivete, hope, faith in daddy). This may or may not have occurred to Lucas when he made the change. The investigation is even more fun if we make the assumption that he was unaware of the full implications of his change.
Post
#159557
Topic
Return of the Jedi: A Generational Conflict
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159557/action/topic#159557
Time
The central conflict in Return of the Jedi (RotJ) is between Luke Skywalker and Obi-wan Kenobi. Luke's position is that his father is alive in the person of Darth Vader. Obi-wan's position is that Luke's father died decades ago, and Darth Vader is another person. Either one is right, depending on which version of the movie is under consideration.

There have been many different versions of each Star Wars film. It is generally accepted that three versions of the trilogy have achieved "canonical" status: the 1977-1983 "original original trilogy" (O-OT), the 1997 special edition (SE), and the 2004 DVD edition (DVD). For the purposes of this discussion, we shall refer to both the O-OT and SE versions of Return of the Jedi as the original version, and the 2004 version as the DVD version.

First, I will show that Luke and Obi-wan had differing positions on who Darth Vader was. This material has remained the same throughout all three canonical versions of the trilogy.

In A New Hope, we hear Obi-wan say, "Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, betrayed and murdered your father." This summarizes everything Obi-wan believes about the person of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. They are two separate people, and Anakin is dead. This attitude is evident throughout the film; Obi-wan speaks warmly of Anakin, but with disgust to Vader. He addresses Vader by his Sith title, rather than use his personal name or a Jedi title (usually "my young padawan" in the prequel trilogy).

Obi-wan continues to bifurcate the two persons of Anakin/Vader in RotJ, telling Luke, "When [the Emperor seduced Anakin to the Dark Side], the good man who was your father died." Obi-wan has been trained in metaphysics from a very young age; there is no questioning his statement. He firmly believes that Anakin Skywalker is no more.

Luke believes and acts differently. Although initially doubtful of Vader's claim to paternity in The Empire Strikes Back (ESB), he easily addresses Vader as "father" minutes later, when the two experience a moment of telepathic communion. Luke continues to identify Vader as his father throughout RotJ, even as Obi-wan attempts to discourage this line of reasoning:

Obi-wan: You must confront Darth Vader.

Luke: But I can't kill my own father!

Obi-wan: Then the Emperor has already won.

Luke resists Obi-wan's persuasion, and meets with Darth Vader. Although this meeting could be described as a confrontation, it is clear that Luke does not plan to kill Vader. Instead, he reminds him of his pre-Imperial identity:

Luke: I've accepted that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.

Vader: That name no longer has any meaning for me.

It is clear that, to both Luke and Vader, the name has changed, but the essential person has remained. Neither one considers Anakin Skywalker dead the way Obi-wan Kenobi does.

Luke continues to identify Vader with Anakin throughout their confrontation in the Emperor's throne room. Ultimately, as Luke writhes in pain under the Emperor's Dark Side assault and calls out, "Father, please!" Vader decides to act as a Jedi would, and dispatches the Emperor at the cost of his own life. There is no evidence that a discorporate Jedi spirit is reinhabiting Vader's body, or that the decision to save Luke from the Emperor came from anywhere other than Darth Vader. Wounded by the Emperor, his life support systems destroyed by lightning, Anakin Skywalker throws away the trappings of his life as Darth Vader to look at Luke one last time for the first time, tells Luke, "You were right about me. Tell your sister, you were right." Having made his final statement, he dies. Luke burns his father's body, still caparisoned as Darth Vader, in a private ceremony on Endor.

The next scene is where the original version and the DVD version differ, and where either Luke or Obi-wan is proved right. After Luke has cremated his father's body, he returns to the Ewok village where the Alliance commandos recruited their indigenous fighters. A number of Alliance officers are celebrating their victory against the Death Star, but Luke is in no mood to celebrate. He moves off from the throng, and sees three Force spirits. Two of them he immediately recognizes as Obi-wan Kenobi and Yoda. The third, he realizes, is his father.]

In the original version, his father is an old man, perhaps old beyond his years. His face is lined, but he smiles at his Luke. He is the archetypal father of an adult, who has suffered much in his many years, but looks with hope and pride upon his offspring. Luke was right about his father. Anakin Skywalker didn't die when he became Darth Vader; he grew old, and died old. His Force spirit reflects this.

In the DVD version, his father is a young man of perhaps twenty-five or thirty. He appears approximately as Anakin did in Revenge of the Sith (RotS). This supports Obi-wan's position, that Anakin died when he became Darth Vader. (The exact time of death is unknown, but may be determinable after careful study of Anakin's spirit and his appearance throughout RotS.) Curiously, this means both that Luke was wrong, and Anakin/Vader was wrong in proclaiming that Luke was right.

One wonders what occurred between 1983 and 2004 that compelled George Lucas to revisit the central conflict of RotJ and choose a different winner. Is it merely the result of aging? Does Lucas look differently upon his own father, now, or his role as a father? Was the internal logic of the Force reconsidered throughout the writing of the prequel trilogy? Further research is warranted, but it would require more biographical information on Lucas and in-depth information on his writing process than I have available.
Post
#159543
Topic
Do you think Lucas really knows there is demand for the O-OT on DVD?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159543/action/topic#159543
Time
Eh, I'd keep the old lightsabers and matte lines, or I wouldn't really consider it the original original trilogy. I love to see through the frame of my cockpit, I don't know about you!


Yeah ... Just clean up the film, scan it, hire the guy from starwarslegacy.com to color correct it, encode a nice 16:9 MPEG-2 out of it with the original sound mixes, and slap it on a DVD. Most of this work was probably done for the 1997 and 2004 releases. They can get a fan-made DVD cover set from a torrent site, then hire a child or trained monkey to oversee the actual encoding of the video. This thing could be on store shelves by New Year's.

With regard to Lucas, I think he doesn't care about the "fanbase." The base of Star Wars -- The Movies' popularity is not the fans, but the populace at large. If half the hardcore Star Wars fanbase gave up on Star Wars completely, they might have to scale back the publication of reference books and whatnot (as Pocket Books did to Star Trek during the Trekkie Diaspora in the late 90s), but movie sales would not be terribly affected.
Post
#159540
Topic
It's official, George is really losing it (claims more changes to the OT to come...)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159540/action/topic#159540
Time
Except that Tolkien began the Silmarillion in 1916-17, and it was very close to the 1977 "final" form in 1937, when the first edition of The Hobbit was published. In fact, he offered it for publication in 1937, and it was rejected. Although he continued to work on it until his death, it was a fairly complete story before he went on to write Lord of the Rings. The bits of the Silm that were changed, such as Celeborn's origin or the Second Prophecy of Mandos, don't really introduce any errors into LotR. So comparing the Silm to the SW prequels, which were written decades after the "later" material, is not really accurate.
Post
#159118
Topic
Info Wanted: 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit?' - has anyone done the uncensored version?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159118/action/topic#159118
Time

Are there any preservation projects for Roger Rabbit? I imagine no home edition of the movie has the Betty Boop flash or the director’s phone number, but I’ve heard the LD does have the uncensored “'Scuse me, toots,” scene, as well as the peek up Jessica’s dress. Both were modified by Disney, even on the “Enthusiast” disc in the 2-disc DVD set.

Not that I, you know, want to see Betty Boop or Jessica Rabbit naked. I’d just really like to get the most complete version of this film possible. The official DVD release is fantastic, but I still feel a little cheated that they redrew a few frames. There’s probably still enough stuff out there that didn’t make the official DVD that a decent fan DVD could be put together; I’m working on a couple potential extras, myself.

Post
#159108
Topic
phantom menace first thoughts
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/159108/action/topic#159108
Time
I had been greatly anticipating the movie for years. I effortlessly moved from collecting all rumors to avoiding all spoilers before much of the plot got out, so I could go in and enjoy it. However, some of the stuff that got out had me just a bit worried. As did the ... excesses and miscues of the Special Editions. Not a lot, just a little nervous.

I saw the movie on opening day. I had gotten my tickets early, but there was no line when I arrived to get my seats. (I should have figured that'd be the case for a daytime showing, but I was young, and the hype was getting to me.) The theater wasn't empty, but it was far from packed. The movie started, and I watched the whole thing, from beginning to end.

For a few days, I told myself that I had enjoyed it. Darth Maul was neat, and it had a good score. It was nice to learn some of the backstory of the Imperial age, even if the backstory was kind of bland. But the truth could not be denied. Before long, I admitted that I hated it. It was awful. Even the parts that most people liked, on reflection, were hollow and substanceless. A "pod race?" I have Speedvision for when I need a NASCAR fix. A Sith ninja? Not nearly as threatening as Darth Vader, and besides, he's dead. The parts that people didn't like, I really didn't like.

I didn't watch another Star Wars movie again for three years.

Admitting to myself that I hated TPM was very liberating. The three years between TPM and AotC were also very productive, for me. I stopped worrying about Star Wars "canon" (varium et semper mutabile), and decided to stick to my own interpretations of events. I discovered Tolkien, and read most of the published Arda saga. A lot of Tolkien's unpublished stories, rough drafts, and superceded editions are available in print due to the efforts of his son Christopher and numerous Tolkien scholars. This is almost exactly what Star Wars fans are doing, preserving earlier versions of the story for study, entertainment, and posterity -- only we're forced to do it in an underground samizdat style, while Tolkien's early writings are generally available in large bookstores.

But I digress! This is a Star Wars forum, and a Phantom Menace topic. You have seen that, while my first thoughts regarding TPM were positive with qualifications, upon reflection it nearly destroyed Star Wars fandom as an element of my life.