Cut darth_ender some slack! Maybe he has a cold. :)
mee 2 its is sew anoying adn i wish thay woodnt doo that
I do appreciate that you are acting in my defense, or at least in defense of my thread, but I propose that we just ignore him until he smartens up.
^Nice unintentional Star Wars reference (...sort of :P).
I dropped my pawn in 2c.
DominicCobb said:
I never knew that Twilight Zone episode was actually how people viewed hell. Interesting, thanks for the clarification.
Remember that I was just giving an analogy of why hell is torture, so that isn't exactly what it is. Hell is torture because you constantly want more, and for eternity. After a while it would just get unbearable.
HotRod was being a jerk, but I think the best attitude to have is not to be hypocritical yourself, but just to ignore him.
No offense, I just don't think this is the best way to react.
DominicCobb said:
RicOlie_2 said:
DominicCobb said:
I thought about starting this thread and then saying that I probably wouldn't answer any questions because atheists don't have a set set of beliefs. Any question that gets answered just comes down to the answerer's view on life.
So I just want to make it clear that these answers don't represent the beliefs of all atheists. I'm sure we all know that but it's a common misconception that all atheists think the same thing and treat others and the world the same way. I actually see atheism as the belief system that faces the most prejudice (let me be VERY clear that what I mean by this is that I think many theists have a low opinion of atheists - I do not mean AT ALL that they are persecuted or are the victim of any sort of violence, because they aren't).
What really annoys me the most is when theists see atheists as people who have no soul or sense of empathy. Again, I don't mean you guys, but I've met people in the world like this. Just anecdotally I feel like a lot of theists have a low opinion for atheists that they'd never have for a theist with a different religion.
Personally, my hands are off religion so it annoys me when people try to argue against my atheism (which, again, I don't think you see a theist doing this to a theist of a different religion) because I just want no part in religion. For me, God doesn't exist, and that's that.
Of course, this makes it all the more rewarding when I meet a theist who totally respects my beliefs.
This wasn't really a question, but whatever.
I respect everyone's beliefs, but I don't agree with most of them. I have a question for you though. Supposing Christianity was true and you died an atheist. Since you want no part in religion, would you want to go to heaven or hell?
I'm just asking out of curiosity. To further clarify, I will define heaven and hell for you. Hell: total absence of God (and supposedly of most or all good); heaven: the presence of God and the worship of him. Both of these are for an infinite length of time and one cannot go from one to the other.
Yeah, I think most respect others beliefs. If I said otherwise, that was a mistake. I just think many don't.
As to your question, I don't know. From what I learned when I was a Catholic hell really sucks a dick in terms of how well your stay will be, but if it's just the "total absence of God" than I don't know, why do I want God? What makes him so great? I don't know.
Also, wouldn't I go to purgatory first and ask for forgiveness? That's what I'm banking on.
To be honest, a lot of religious concepts seem to me to be confusing or hypocritical. Sometimes I think about how I could make Catholicism make more sense. But that's obviously neither here nor there.
The reason hell is supposed to be such a crappy place to vacation is because the absence of God isn't supposed to be a great thing. Think about this analogy of hell:
You are given the entirety of earth on which you can do whatever you want and go wherever you please. The downside is that you are the only human being on the planet, because you get it for yourself, after all. After an eternity--an eternity!--would you not get bored. After the boredom, wouldn't you find it torture being alone on the planet and having done everything you could possibly do a thousand times over, yet knowing you hadn't even been there for a billionth of the amount of time you were going to be there?
Because I believe God is infinite, then an infinitely long stay in heaven would still be enjoyable. The earth is finite, so if you were given the earth as your hell (that's not what I necessarily believe hell is, I'm just trying to make the concept more clear) you would eventually get pretty darn sick of it.
I'm sure that if God is truly just then he will account for the things that made you decide he didn't exist. No one can really claim to know how that works though.
TV's Frink said:
Indeed.
If God were to ignore my actions in this world and cast me to hell simply because I didn't worship him...I submit that he/she is a god not worthy of worship.
So you want to worship a God you don't believe in for all eternity rather than be rid of him forever? The first option is what I call heaven, the second is what I call hell.
What you are unintentionally saying is "if God decided that I wouldn't have to worship him for eternity because I didn't worship him on earth, I wouldn't want to worship him."
Ryan McAvoy said:
RicOlie_2 said:
@ Ryan
Religious texts? Who said anything about those? What I am asking is how you can be so sure that using empathy and your brain are the way to discern good from evil? What about acting on what would help society survive the longest and be most productive? Why do you think that that is not a legitimate way to determine the difference between right and wrong?
You tell me?
(However for myself, I am sure that murdering half the planet to make life for the other half better is wrong because I'd feel empathy for the other half).
The point I was making about Religious texts is that they don't have the answers for every issue (Right or wrong) yet I'm sure you yourself can (And do) make your own mind up on those things anyway. So why not do that with everything?
No, religious texts don't have the answers for every issue. That is why I am Catholic. Catholics are supposed to accept the Bible and Church teachings as truth, using both to help decide what decision to make when the answer is not given by either one (meaning acting in accordance with those teachings and texts and in the spirit of them--practically every decision can be made that way).
You are, whether intentionally or not, avoiding my main question. How can you be sure that murder is wrong if it can have practical benefits for society in some cases? What are your reasons for thinking that empathy is not a weakness and a fault itself? Is survival of the fittest, the most cooperative, or the competitive cooperative the way to go and what makes you think that instead of something else? If someone disagreed with you why are you so sure you would be right?
DominicCobb said:
I thought about starting this thread and then saying that I probably wouldn't answer any questions because atheists don't have a set set of beliefs. Any question that gets answered just comes down to the answerer's view on life.
So I just want to make it clear that these answers don't represent the beliefs of all atheists. I'm sure we all know that but it's a common misconception that all atheists think the same thing and treat others and the world the same way. I actually see atheism as the belief system that faces the most prejudice (let me be VERY clear that what I mean by this is that I think many theists have a low opinion of atheists - I do not mean AT ALL that they are persecuted or are the victim of any sort of violence, because they aren't).
What really annoys me the most is when theists see atheists as people who have no soul or sense of empathy. Again, I don't mean you guys, but I've met people in the world like this. Just anecdotally I feel like a lot of theists have a low opinion for atheists that they'd never have for a theist with a different religion.
Personally, my hands are off religion so it annoys me when people try to argue against my atheism (which, again, I don't think you see a theist doing this to a theist of a different religion) because I just want no part in religion. For me, God doesn't exist, and that's that.
Of course, this makes it all the more rewarding when I meet a theist who totally respects my beliefs.
This wasn't really a question, but whatever.
I respect everyone's beliefs, but I don't agree with most of them. I have a question for you though. Supposing Christianity was true and you died an atheist. Since you want no part in religion, would you want to go to heaven or hell?
I'm just asking out of curiosity. To further clarify, I will define heaven and hell for you. Hell: total absence of God (and supposedly of most or all good); heaven: the presence of God and the worship of him. Both of these are for an infinite length of time and one cannot go from one to the other.
@ Ryan
Religious texts? Who said anything about those? What I am asking is how you can be so sure that using empathy and your brain are the way to discern good from evil? What about acting on what would help society survive the longest and be most productive? Why do you think that that is not a legitimate way to determine the difference between right and wrong?
Sorry, I edited my post. Please respond to the edit.
@Ryan
If I were to decide that what was beneficial to the human species was to eliminate all non-beneficial members of society (i.e. mentally and physically ill, old, and homeless people among others) and go around murdering them all, how would you be able to tell me I was wrong? Because you felt empathy for those people? What if I said that I overcame my empathy to aid the human species, because those people only held others back and I was doing others a favour by ridding them of useless people. What would you say to that?
EDIT: You said that feeling empathy and ignoring it makes people evil, but what is that opinion/belief founded on? Why do think it is that that makes a person evil instead of something else? Suppose I think that good and evil is determined by someone's willingness to do what is good for society as a whole and suppose that was killing off the baby boomers because people were held back by caring for them and too many working hands were wasted on them instead of doing something that would benefit society in the long run. Who would you be to say that the way I determined right from wrong was incorrect while the way you did so was?
From your above statement I gather that I am being led into a trap, but I'm doing this anyway.
P-2d as well.
Ryan McAvoy said:
timdiggerm said:
Ryan McAvoy said:
Short easy answer = Because I feel empathy.
I don't need a God to tell me that something is wrong because I can work it out for myself using my brain. e.g. I would miss my family if somebody murdered them so I know somebody else would be sad if I commited murder.
That of course extends and answers every other moral question.
It doesn't though. Lots of people have felt empathy for some and still done terrible things to others.
Those people were wrong.
Why do you think you have the authority to say that?
The chances of sentient life existing elsewhere in the universe are pretty low. Even the universe has limits.
http://voices.yahoo.com/what-chances-intelligent-life-elsewhere-2295217.html
Alright, thanks. Sounds like you have pretty similar views to me on the subject.
P-8d
Sorry I took so long...I was away from home last night and had some catching up to do over on a certain one of my threads this afternoon. :P
HotRod said:
And can I just say one thing then I'll stop.
I hope there is a God. I hope that my mother is sitting up there watching the grandchildren she never met grow up to be the most beautiful people.
I hope one day to join her. I really do. But I'm sorry, the church is full of nasty people who do not deserve any if the credit given to them.
Believing in God is one thing, trusting a priest, or those around him, thats something totally different
Fair enough, and I'm sorry that the terrible example of some members (and sadly leaders) of my religion turn you away. We don't in any way think that priests have ultimate authority in their parishes, but they are supposed to be fatherly figures and it is sad when they are instead child-molesters or alcoholics.
HotRod said:
Generalisation? It's common fucking knowledge that these so called spokesmen for the almighty God, are dirty fucking child molesters.
Not all granted, but some most defiantly are. Fact. I'm sure Jesus sitting on his cloud must be so proud!
Read the history. Read the facts. For years they've gotten away with it because they are the holy fucking spokesmen to God.
Child molesters are everywhere, in all walks of society. True. But when the man of the clergy, the fucker who stands there every Sunday preaching how wonderful God is, then decides to take his celibacy out in a fucking scared to shit little alter boy, well there's no excuse for that.
Common knowledge that most priests are pedophiles (you used the word "some" adjacent to most, but I'm just assuming you meant "most" because that's the word you've used more often)! How many Catholic priests do you know? Being a Catholic, I know quite a few, some better than others, but I have absolutely no reason to believe that any of them are pedophiles. It is perhaps more common among clergy than among other people, but it is still the vast minority of priests who do have this problem. The Catholic Church is finally starting to address the issue, so hopefully it won't be so much of a problem in the future.
Honestly, though! The fact that there are pedophilic, hypocritical priests, doesn't negate my beliefs. If I (and I am assuming you are an atheist or at least agnostic, so apologies if you are not), assume all atheists or agnostics are intolerant Catholic-haters who use excessive amounts of profanity, would you not think I was retarded? You wrote (with profanity excised) "It's common knowledge that these so called spokesmen for the almighty God, are dirty child molesters." Maybe there are many pedophilic priests, or maybe some priests are pedophiles, but saying that they are or most are child molesters and pedophiles, is a gross misrepresentation and generalization.
Sorry if I seem obsessed with profanity, but the people in this thread who come across as being the most polite and civilized are those who do not use profanity and insults to get their point across.
darth_ender said:
When I have time I'll try to find where it is in this thread. It has been addressed before. It's a difficult topic for me, personally.
It was, as Bingowings mentioned, brought up on the last page, but it wasn't clear to me from that if you were saying that it was not an LDS believe that most homosexuals become that way through rape, etc. or if you were saying that most LDS don't believe homosexuality is wrong.
As it is not my intent to trash your thread, begin an argument, make people hate you, etc., feel free to PM me if you don't wish to touch on this in this thread.
There...I was worried that all thirty-something posts were going to be questions. :) Hopefully I didn't miss anybody.
timdiggerm said:
Jesus said:
By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
and I've never understood how that fits with schisms. And yes, I say that despite being a Protestant.
Yes, Christianity has certainly been hypocritical in that way. It just shows we need to work a little harder to understand each other if we want other people to think our religion is credible.
TV's Frink said:
RicOlie_2 said:
The chances of sentient life existing elsewhere in our universe are incredibly low
Really? The universe is a little too large to make such a statement.
JEDIT: Phone posting for the loss.
If we discovered sentient alien life, then it would have to be fairly close. The chances of that happening so close to us is incredibly low.
thejediknighthusezni said:
I'm more impressed by the power to transubstantiate scripture than I am by bread and wine. Bishops should be good husbands and fathers, the congregations should be governed by a council of modest elder family people.... We can just rip that stuff right out of the Bible and have a good source of toilet paper.
In other news, Francis has charged his clergy to get out there and RRRIIIPPPP open doors for the Church. Get those doors of children and confused teens torn WIDE until they SCREAM the name "JESUS!!!!". He must be serious. Saying what you mean and meaning what you say is the very definition of "Jesuitical".
Not sure what you mean. Perhaps if you used the English language more adequately, I would be able to understand you. Either that or I'm just plain stupid, because I don't understand what you mean.