Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda

Post Praetorian said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

So basically your argument is that atheists are more likely to commit crime, despite any evidence for such a claim, and despite evidence to the contrary?

 No such claim has been made...nor, apparently, refuted...

The question at present is what might prevent an atheist from partaking in such a theft, not whether any such crimes may have occurred in fact. 

Well, one possibility is that the absence of ancient religious creeds might itself prevent prevent partaking in all manner of crimes.  Quite a bit of killing is going on, for example, because a sacred book apparently demands it. Not being bound to such scripture, I am thus prevented from murdering heretics, or stealing their children.

Perhaps a less passive answer would be that an atheist, in order to function in society, must think about and fully form his/her own moral code.  When asked why I think it is immoral to do something, such as stealing that trinket, I generally have an explanation - rather just falling back on "because God says I shouldn't do it."

Post Praetorian said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Post Praetorian said:

Allow a scenario in which a small theft might be guaranteed to go unnoticed. Given that the Christian yet knows that the Lord watcheth all, what might yet prevail upon the atheist to stay his hand?

Are there any statistics that show the incidence of petty theft is lower among Christians than among atheists?  Aren't atheists disproportionately underrepresented in prison populations?

 If such statistics regarding theft might exist, surely they must be suspect...for which alleged thief might answer such a survey truthfully? Particularly if not yet apprehended?

The relative religiosity of prisoners has been considered, but three factors may yet account for such a divergence:

1) Any association between atheism and increased/decreased intellect/bravery.

2) Any consideration that it might be wise to admit to a given faith background to gain church support and sponsorship with an aim for early parole.

3) The real possibility that many an avowed atheist might, when at a very low ebb, consider a principled atheism to be a far less satisfying state than a more hopeful theistic outlook...particularly when allowing that if one is to believe at the same time in a finite, earthly, existence while at the same moment squandering it within a 10 x 10 one might become fairly unbalanced.

So basically your argument is that atheists are more likely to commit crime, despite any evidence for such a claim, and despite evidence to the contrary?

danny_boy said:

Fan edits don't interest me.

It's funny, I've never considered Harmy's DE a fan-edit.  It has always seemed more like a technical attempt to undo George's fan-edit... a reconstruction / restoration using whatever elements of the original film are available.

By contrast, Adywan's would be a fan-edit because it deliberately attempts to "improve" the movie with elements or edits that never were part of any official edition.

Post Praetorian said:

Allow a scenario in which a small theft might be guaranteed to go unnoticed. Given that the Christian yet knows that the Lord watcheth all, what might yet prevail upon the atheist to stay his hand?

Are there any statistics that show the incidence of petty theft is lower among Christians than among atheists?  Aren't atheists disproportionately underrepresented in prison populations?

drngr said:

Here is the service manual for the AG-1980. Perhaps you can tell me whether it maintains a separate path. Trying to read the schematic is over my head.

 As a devoted owner of an AG-1980, I am interested in what you learn.

Warbler said:

grrrrrrrrrrr1 f***! f***! f***! f***! s**t! s**t! s**t! d**n! d**n! d**n!  I tried all day yesterday to fix the ceil fan in my bedroom.  The chain had pulled out.  I tried couldn't fix it.  I became frustrated and lost my temper.   Now I feel so depressed,  and angry.  I feel like such a loser and I hate myself right now.   Why can't I do things that others do so easily and without losing their tempers!?!?!  What the f*** is wrong me!  f***! f***! f***! f***! s**t! s**t! s**t! d**n! d**n! d**n!

 I wouldn't have a clue how to fix a ceiling fan.

danny_boy said:

In terms of which version I prefer......then that is obviously the original version!.....that is why I am here........but until that version hits Blu ray....then the 2011 Blu ray is the best Star Wars(albeit in it's altered form) has looked on home video.

Fair enough.  Although I find it a bit odd that, given that you would prefer the original version, that you aren't even curious to see Harmy's version.  Most of it uses the blu ray as its base, and even improve on it because of the color palette and soundtrack.

At last, a thread I can sink my teeth into!  Hey, we're supposed to eat the body of Christ during communion - at least with FSM we get a nice marinara sauce and some grated cheese.

Seriously, of the religions that exist today, the only two that I would actually consider partaking are the (1) Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and (2) Buddhism in a distant second.

Danny, you never answsered my question... out of curiosity, do you prefer the blu ray, or Harmy's?  And if the former, why?

And if time permits, I'll add a second question - disregarding the picture quality, which movie do you prefer, the one on the GOUT, or the one on the blu ray?

I still need to know if I should get cremated or not!

You attended a PT marathon?  That requires medical supervision.

SilverWook said:

Well, someone paid an obscene amount of money for an obscure Kenner Droids prototype action figure last summer, so that kind of insanity tends to creep into related items.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Kenner-Star-Wars-Droids-AFA-85-moc-Kleb-Zellock-salesmans-sample-1-of-1-/291167250870

The scary thing is that for it to reach this price, there must have been TWO people willing to pay this amount.  It is indeed obscene - think of the number of people that could feed.

Aww how disappointing. I was expecting to read a list of things like "Sebastian Shaw", "GOUT", etc.

Possessed said:

At the end of the day you really can't prove he exists.  You can't prove he doesn't exist either though.  Arguing about it will always be fruitless because there is no definitive argument for either side.

And yet a lot of laws are created based on the faith that he exists.

There's always this alternative: http://www.venganza.org/

Post Praetorian said:

Did you have any apprehension in revealing your strong atheism to others? Did you lose any relationships as a result?

 Yes, and No.

Post Praetorian said:

One is walking in an unfamiliar city at night and one encounters a very powerful looking stranger. Is one more relaxed to discover he is a Christian or an Atheist? Why?

 Am I gay or straight?   :)

Post Praetorian said:

Would you consider yourselves:

Strong Atheists: Belief that there are no gods.

Weak Atheists: Belief that there is little or no evidence of god(s).

Defacto Atheists: Unconcerned about there being gods or not.

Agnostic: Lacking knowledge in whether there may be gods.

or some other form?

Other.  I strongly believe that there is way, WAY more out there than we can see with our weak human senses, limited human brain power, and primitive technology.  That is, there are planes that would fall under the category of "spiritual" using today's language (for lack of a better term); that there are higher beings than us; that there are dimensions we haven't discovered; etc. etc.  There could even be a God or Gods out there, but if so I doubt they have anything to do with the Bible or any current religion.  In short, I think that the universe is a lot richer and more incredible than any of us image, and probably even moreso than we can possibly imagine.

I also think that the next "race" of humans (wherever evolution leads us), presuming it is another step up, will look back on us - not just our religion but also our math and science and literature - and giggle at our quaint simplicity.

twister111 said:

So since the subject of evidence was brought up. I'll simply ask what evidence of God's existence would you atheists accept as proof of God? Something short of God actually appearing to you as proof. Something that you wouldn't deny. Like what would you accept that proves God's existence?

Scientific proofs generally work by deciding what it is you're trying to prove, constructing a model that explains it, and then devising an experiment that is repeatable so that independent people can verify that the model is an accurate predictor.  So, being a believer in science, that would work.  I haven't thought up such an experiment myself, but perhaps someone could.

I suppose I might also believe in God if I had some strong personal experience - although I wouldn't then expect others to believe it if I had nothing tangible to show them.  After all, I believe that I saw some things in 1977 that apparently others on this forum don't believe I saw. :)  I should add, however, that I wouldn't push for passing laws based on this level of "evidence".  I'd have to understand that it could be a delusion, like an alien abduction (or missing with the grappling hook).  But if the experience was strong enough, I would allow myself to personally believe it.

So there's two for you.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Possessed said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

If this were strictly true, then Jews/Christians would still believe the Earth is flat and at the centre of the universe, the Hindus would believe the Earth is supported on the backs of elephants standing on the back of a giant turtle, etc.

 Not sure about that... does the Bible actually mandate a flat earth?

 Actually the bible implies multiple times that the earth is round.

 Yeah that's what I thought.  Thanks for the references.

Here's an article -- written from a Christian perspective, I might add -- which casts serious doubts on those claims.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Schneider.html

 Nice article!

darth_ender said:

 Amazingly, I'm surprised at the narrow-mindedness of so many atheists I've met.  It seems that many have already concluded that their correctness is a foregone conclusion and make no further effort to try and challenge their own worldview.

I was much more open to religion when I was younger.  As I get older and more curmudgeonly, I find myself less able to suspend my disbelief.

My comment wasn't about relgious people - it was about religion itself.  Sure, there are both open-minded and narrrow-minded people in both camps.

By the way, just because I might disagree with someone doesn't mean I don't necessarily think they are smart.  I disagree with almost everything Ferris says, but I also think he has one of the sharpest logical minds on the forum, which is why I find debating him to be a good challenge.

Possessed said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

If this were strictly true, then Jews/Christians would still believe the Earth is flat and at the centre of the universe, the Hindus would believe the Earth is supported on the backs of elephants standing on the back of a giant turtle, etc.

 Not sure about that... does the Bible actually mandate a flat earth?

 Actually the bible implies multiple times that the earth is round.

 Yeah that's what I thought.  Thanks for the references.

DuracellEnergizer said:

If this were strictly true, then Jews/Christians would still believe the Earth is flat and at the centre of the universe, the Hindus would believe the Earth is supported on the backs of elephants standing on the back of a giant turtle, etc.

 Not sure about that... does the Bible actually mandate a flat earth?

darth_ender said:

This is probably among the most ignorant, yet most frequent beliefs of atheists today.  Many of the greatest minds in history have been religious, and the greatest discoveries and theories developed by the pious.  I'd venture to say without shame, regardless of how arrogant it sounds, that I have a greater capacity to reason than most of this forum here.  Am I the most intelligent?  Likely not.  Am I the most learned?  Assuredly not.  But I have delved into study and self-examination, into philosophy and refinement of understanding like no one I've met.  I am willing to refine my theories, to question my beliefs, to examine different angles, and to entertain and acceptable seemingly contradicting possibilities with equal validity better than anyone I know.  I consider my mind very gifted in this regard, and I find the snobbishness of today's Google atheists so tiresome aggravating that I can hardly describe it.

 I didn't say that people who are religious cannot do those things.  I just consider religion a hinderance to those things.  Kudos for those today and throughout history who have.  I just think that a lot more of such thought and reflection might have happened without religion.

RicOlie_2 said:

What's wrong with the Intelligent Design / Theistic Evolution Theory?

 Because it isn't a theory, it is a hypothesis.

Post Praetorian said:

Are you happy, as an atheist? Does it content you to so be?

I am extremely glad to have been raised atheist.  Our minds and our ability to reason and think for ourselves is an incredible gift, and a lot of religion seems to be about stifling critical inquiry and just accepting "truth" without question.  That to me is a waste of a great gift.

As for the heaven/hell thing... if I believed it, I would agree it makes a strong case for choosing to be religious.  Unfortunately it all sounds like a big con to me.