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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda

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Members
Join date
20-Sep-2006
Last activity
7-Feb-2024
Posts
3,220
Web Site
http://www.hardbat.com/puggo

Post History

Post
#266609
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Time
Originally posted by: rancher
Originally posted by: zombie84
Rancher, you "know without a doubt that what you saw was true" as much as Puggo did. Its called a false memory, and its a common, everyday occurance. You remember seeing footage of the Rebels fighting the Wompas, but no such footage ever existed, nor found its way into a film.
etc...

Puggo, some of what you wrote I did hear about before, except back in 1979 when the film was re-released. I never saw the cuts you claim & I saw the 35mm version in a different city in Aug '77, but I do remember that many after I moved to Edmonton said the same thing. The one that stands out is the 'addition' of the scene of Vader re-gaining control of his fighter at the end of the film, many believed it wasn't there before & a few of these people had seen the film many more times than you did in '77. It is possible that in this cut played here in 1977 it wasn't in film.

I'd love to share more of what I found with you but it is really pointless isn't it?

Er, I think you're responding to Zombie here...

In any case, try to remember that there are a LOT of people who saw a lot of different things. Rather than get all angry that people aren't believing you, just be content that you shared what you think you remember, and that's it. Maybe someday you'll be proven right, even better maybe someday YOU will find proof, which would be very exciting. It's not easy to research this stuff... a lot less was documented permanently then than is documented today, so you may never be able to prove your remembrances. Rather than argue over mine, I spent several months on a quest to find some evidence. I got really close... I actually found some rough preserved footage of the late-night trailers I thought would prove it, but they were incomplete so no cigar.

This is a community of people who share their work and their thoughts. So, rather than ask people to research something for you, try to contribute something new. Ironically, I ended up contributing the Puggo Edition, which had nothing to do with my original puzzle. Maybe my memory was right, maybe not... maybe someday I'll find something out about that, maybe not. But arguing something that nobody else here can corroborate would just make me frustrated. I still think I maybe saw what I saw, but there's no use arguing about it. You've shared your thoughts - that's cool - now decide what you want to do next. I hope you can chase down that missing script, that would be a wonderful find in and of itself.
Post
#266452
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Time
There's another explanation for the "she's rich" versus "she's beautiful" line(s). The first time Luke sees Leia (on the hologram), he says "she's beautiful". Later when he's describing her to Han, he says "She's...." and instantly the mind fills in "beautiful". But since he's talking to Han, he doesn't say "beautiful", he says "rich" - which is rather funny actually. The mind then "remembers" what it was expecting... I know I was slightly (even possibly subconsiously) surprised every time I heard "rich". The existance of an earlier extended dialogue may just be coincidence, providing confirmation of the memory. Watching the script reading tests in "Deleted Magic" (many of which I think I saw before, ages ago), there obviously was a LOT of lengthy lethargic dialogue that thankfully got tightened up.
Post
#266339
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Time
Originally posted by: The Starkiller
What I find increasingly frustrating about these claims is that the person making the claim will never admit even the possibility of being wrong.


I fell into that category a few years ago when I bought the ANH Faces VHS tape. Having not seen SW in 20-odd years, I was so annoyed that Luke didn't miss the with the grappling hook, "close the blast doors" was missing, Biggs was nowhere to be found, Luke didn't look up at the fight early in the film, and Vader got away (in my mind, the film made it appear that he was killed by Han). The tape seemed like some sort of edited highlights reel. My memory of the theater was that I saw all those things, but since then I think I've accounted for every one. To wit: (a) "close the blast doors" is obvious, (b) Luke's looking up at the sky turned up on a trading card I forgot I had in a drawer, (c) Vader getting away may have been snipped in the theater for time or I just missed it, and (d) the missing grappling hook I believe was in a late night very early promotional trailer that I have tried and failed to dredge up. The Biggs scene is more puzzling, but I probably saw it or something like it somewhere else.

I was 17 years old in 1977 when I saw it in the theater (4 times in the first month after it opened), and my memory still failed me. I can only imagine what I'd be remembering if I were 7 or 9 at the time.
Post
#265687
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
Originally posted by: MoveAlong - Puggo's audio was authored as 2.0 ac3 @160kbps. So, even though the original source may have been mono, the dvd's audio is not technically 1.0, more likely dual mono 2.0. Puggo, is this correct?

Yes. Although it's going to come out sounding mono either way. Is it really worth mentioning?
Post
#264600
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
Originally posted by: auximenies... I've got a copy of the Puggo Edition. It is very cool and well done. PM me if you are interested in trading 1:1.

Thanks for the kind words - I'm getting some great feedback on it. I, of course, could be coerced into a trade as well. I'm still a newbie here - haven't even seen a Gonzo or a de-SE'd fan edit yet. Would enjoy seeing some of the handiwork of other contributors - I'd love to see some of the editions I read about here.
Post
#261174
Topic
Info Wanted: has anyone tried a Star Wars Super 8mm to DVD preservation project?
Time
"There's a BIG surprise ... in the Star Wars crawl"
-------
Ok, what is it?
Will this be up on a.b.starwars?

Well, it may not be a "surprise" to those of you who've been around longer than me. In the Super-8 home edition filmreels, there is no crawl. Instead, the words in the crawl are narrated as the ships come into view. I don't recognize the voice.

As far as a.b.starwars... I don't know how to do that. I suspect Boba Feta will be making it available. I'll do some limited trading of it after he gets a chance to take a look at it. The whole thing (SW and ESB) fit on one DVD. Last week I finished some cleanup on the video, spruced up the menu a bit, and sent it off to him. I think it's very cool.
Post
#260802
Topic
Preserving the...<em>cringe</em>...Star Wars Holiday Special (Released)
Time
Originally posted by: booah - I'm sure Lucas has realized that the Holiday Special is another SW product that can be sold (and in various versions/re-re-releases no doubt). So it's probably only a matter of time before it gets officially released in some form or another. Probably an edited version. Or maybe a Special Edition with added bad CGI!

The other Special Editions all include some dressed-up "cutting room floor" footage. I can only IMAGINE what the outtakes of the Holiday Special must have been like... the footage that wasn't good enough to make it into the final show. As a B-shlock movie fan, I drool at the possibility of a Lucas-produced Holiday Special SE!!!
Post
#259791
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
No biggie, its done now and sounds like its going to be great

Just to keep expectations at bay, remember that these are still grainy old home-edition super8 films, with mono sound and pretty heavy-handed editing. There's only so much one can extract from these beasts.

There's one thing I found very clever about the ESB edit.... nowhere is it revealed that Vader is Luke's father! Presumably, that was done so that viewers who saw the home version would still need to see it in the theater, or at least the "surprise" wouldn't be spoiled for them.
Post
#259737
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
Originally posted by: GhostAlpha26
Thats awesome and was amazingly fast to complete too

Well, the Puggo Project is just the raw capture encoded to DVD. I'm sure others will want to go through and clean it up. In fact, I suspect there may be some Puggo Edits of the Puggo Project in the near future Anyone watching it will see things that have obvious fixes. I thought my initial task was to get as much detail off of the film and into the file as I could, regardless of if it looked polished or not.
Post
#259640
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
The Puggo Project is done! The four reels are now on one DVD.
Since I used the pulldown flag trick, I noticed that it doesn't play well on VLC player.
But it worked well on every other DVD player and media player I tried it on.

Boba Feta will be reviewing it first. I'm sure it'll hit the ground running shortly thereafter.
My final version is NTSC... he may be producing a PAL version as well.
Post
#258896
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
The Puggo project is almost done. I just need to make the menu. Sound processing and synching is complete, and the 4-second gap has been filled with the appropriate soundtrack excerpt (matched as best as I could... the balance on these things is TOTALLY different than in the full versions).

One technical change... I didn't filter the audio with DeClick, as it was too destructive. Used a notch filter instead.
Post
#258892
Topic
Info Wanted: has anyone tried a Star Wars Super 8mm to DVD preservation project?
Time
The Puggo Project of this is almost done. See the link below. All that's left to do is make the menu. Jambe's description of the audio differences matches the copy I transfered. There's a BIG surprise (at least it was to me) in the Star Wars crawl. Note this is not of the entire movie, just the condensed home versions of SW and ESB. They are still really cool.

Watch the Puggo thread (and the Puggo webpage) over the next couple of days. Although there is still plenty of room for tweaking, I'm pretty proud of how it came out.
Post
#256201
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
As the Puggo Edition nears completion (one of the reels is completely done, the others are almost done), here are some details a few of you might find interesting, or at least amusing:

The PUGGO Edition - Technical Specifications:

Source material: Super-8 film (4 reels), 24fps with mono sound.
Reels 1/2 - Star Wars
Reels 3/4 - Empire Strikes Back

Video capture:
- Workprinter-XP frame-by-frame telecine
- Sony TRV-900 video camera, NTSC
- Sony Vegas video capture
- each reel assembled from four captures at various light settings
- edit/trimming in Sony Vegas - all frames retained as-is
- no additional video post-processing

Audio capture:
- GAF Super-8 sound projector, mono capture
- DAT passthrough SPDIF into Cool-Edit (Windows)
- reel #1 required 5 captures at different levels.
- reels #2-4 required only 1 capture each.
- assembly in Cool-Edit

Audio processing:
- light hum and noise removal in Cool-Edit
- deClick in Cool-Edit to ameliorate distortion

Sound sync:
- temporary video pulldown done using CineCap, for sync purposes only
- assembly in Sony Vegas, audio with temporary video.
- minor audio stretch with pitch preservation, sync done by hand.
- rendered only resulting .wav file - video pulldown discarded.

Video encoding:
- TMPGE to .m2v, 2-pass encoding
- bitrate = min:3000 avg:6000 max:8000
- highest motion quality, 10 bits
- 3:2 pulldown settings
- progressive input, interlace output

Audio encoding: Sonic Foundry SoftEncode (AC3)

DVD Authoring and menu: DVD-Lab

Burning: Nero

Note -
ESB has 4 seconds of silence while Luke waits (hanging) to be rescued, and another 1 second gap earlier in the same reel. I plan to patch in those two gaps using audio from a DVD and try to match sound quality. It's just too jarring with the gap, as is. But don't worry, I plan to also keep a copy of the original audio without the patch. Heck, I might even make an alternate audio track without the patch. Depends on how creative I feel

Any questions?
Post
#256195
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
Originally posted by: Karyudo
Pulldown's way easier than that: just make your AVI 23.976 fps, encode to DVD-spec MPEG-2 at that framerate, and then insert the pulldown flags (23.976 fps to 29.97 fps) with 'pulldown.exe' or some other flag-adding tool. Done!

Thanks for the advice. After some wrestling, I finally got this to work! I used the flag-adding tool in TMPGE. I also synched the sound for reel #1, and to my delight there was no audio drift after pulldown. The great thing about doing it this way, is that all four reels should fit on a DVD, even with average bitrate of 6000.

One down, three to go!
Post
#252993
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
As for editing and making MPEG-2, I'd be very careful to find out beforehand exactly what Vegas does in order to make DVD-spec video. Does it internally render 29.97 fps, and encode as such, or will it pass true 23.976 fps and let TMPEGEnc add flags?
I don't do MPEG-2 encoding in Vegas. I just use Vegas for editing to .avi, and then use TMPGE for encoding to MPEG-2. My understanding is that I can edit in Vegas in 23.976, and have TMPGE add the pulldown flag. After reading this discussion, that is what I am going to try to do.
I'm more a video than audio guy, so my vote would be to subtly tweak the audio to match the frame-accurate video. I think you open a whole new can of worms by trying to sync audio and video by duplicating film frames. In my opinion, you'd be better off to take frame-length chunks of audio out here and there, to match the video.

If I do that for the DVD, I'll be sure and keep the non-chopped version for download if anyone wants to use the original soundtrack for anything.
Also, keep in mind that 24 fps is not 23.976 fps is (probably) not 23.98 fps -- those differences right there may be enough to make the audio drift!

Yeah, I'm not sure how best to handle that. Any suggestions?

Also, anyone have any suggestions on TMPGE settings? I have my set of parameters I like, but you folks might have some additional tricks you can suggest. I notice a lot of you use CCE (which I don't have) and some of you have MainConcept (which I have but don't like as much as TMPGE).

This is cool, I'm learning a lot.
Post
#252925
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
Originally posted by: Karyudo
Pulldown's way easier than that: just make your AVI 23.976 fps, encode to DVD-spec MPEG-2 at that framerate, and then insert the pulldown flags (23.976 fps to 29.97 fps) with 'pulldown.exe' or some other flag-adding tool. Done!
That's actually a very good idea. I need to verify the fps of the film (believe it or not, I haven't bothered to determine it yet... capture is at 6fps and at that speed you can't really tell). Presuming it's 24, my software (Vegas and TMPGE) should be able to do it... I don't think I'd even need pulldown.exe. Hmm, what do I do if it's 18fps? Also, Boba remarked that on his transfer, the audio sounds "too fast", so we were mulling over the possibility of doing an irregular pulldown to correct that (rather than trying to adjust the pitch, due to possible artifacts). Doing it your way, on the other hand, could make it easier to stuff the whole thing onto one DVD with high bitrate and extras. I've never edited in 23.976 - this should be interesting.
If you're sending raw copies to people, I'd like to see the X0 Project get one before pretty much anyone else. I'd love to have one, but it'd be sorta useless in my hands...

I'll be happy to send them a copy. But honestly, the resolution on these films is so low that it would be utterly useless to them - unless they had a need for some esoteric information hidden in some lost frame. Or if they wanted to tack on the giant "THE END" for comic relief.
Post
#252844
Topic
The Puggo Edition - webpage and screenshots (Super 8 transfers - Released)
Time
I have a question, looking ahead to when this is finished...

Presumably when I'm done, I'll make this available the same way the other projects are being distributed - something called "torrents" or the alt.binaries.whatever, or through Boba or Richter... actually I have no idea how it works, never having downloaded any of the SW preservation efforts out there yet.

Well, when that time comes, the completed version will have undergone a video "pulldown", where certain frames are either duplicated, or additional interpolated frames added to make the final speed correct. Will there be interest in the raw frame captures, for anyone else interested in making their own pulldown/assembly? That would be raw .avi files, but not horrendously huge... probably about 15Gb total (split into 4 files).