Porkins4real

DominicCobb said:

I would wager it’s fair to say the die hard fans are about evenly split. I think most casual fans at least liked it, if not loved it. Thing with SW is there are a lot more casual fans.

I can’t say I agree, as a Movie, it was good but not a must-see for a casual star wars fan. Maybe a solid 6 or 7 out of 10 as a movie. I though Jamnji was a much better movie as far as entertainment goes.

chyron8472 said:

What exactly would you guys say are specific reasons why TLJ is so divisive?

Not why it sucks, or why it’s wonderful—but what about the film seems to (apparently) be making it a love it or hate it kind of thing?

Like, if I were to have a conversation with someone I know irl about TLJ, and if I said it seems to be really divisive regarding the fanbase, and they asked me why, what could I say?

…I’m having this hypothetical conversation with family in my head, but I don’t know how to explain conceptually why its divisive, especially to someone who hasn’t seen the film yet.

I would say it is that half the people in the world are dumber than average and the other half are smarter than average creates the divide.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.

This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.

My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.

Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.

I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.

I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.

Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc seems completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.

Snoke is not dead. Come back 2 years from now and you’ll see I was correct.

We all have a version of what is a Bad SW movie. Let’s not get into defining it, but as a fan of SW how many bad films would it take before you stop going to see them?

I was thinking about this, and I have to say that I am going to see every SW film that comes out no matter how much I disliked it’s predecessors. Like many I disliked PT but I was back to see the next one in hopes it would turn around, I think even after a string of 6 or 7 bad SW movies I am still going to check out the 7th or 8th movie to see if things turn around.

I sure hope that is not how it turns out but I just can’t see me checking out of the franchise.

Mrebo said:

Porkins4real said:

Mrebo said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.

My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.

They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.

It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal. Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.

If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.

This is ludicrous. I know the movie hurt you bad but come on.

Also to a large percentage of us who grew up with Luke, TLJ Luke was fantastic. “Crapping all over Luke” is just your opinion.

Just a ludicrous as Lukes story base on his ROFTJ character. IF they can take Luke have luke make such a turn, why not Rey in the future? Nothing sacrosanct anymore in the SW universe.

Porkins, stop expressing just your opinions already 😉

Let’s indulge a bit: what did you like about the TLJ?

Things I liked:

-The acting was one of the better of the SW franchise
-Visuals / Cinemaphotography was great
-Red Guards actually fighting was cool
-Lukes projection fight with Kylo
-Rey despite the Character Flaws
-Kylo being shown as Bad guy that is not just pure evil
-Leah using the force (but hated the way it was shot)
-Lukes moments with Chewie and R2
-No Jar Jar
-Fat in guy in X wing - Tubbs

• A few plot holes, but entertaining

If it was a non-cannon movie I would have no issue with it. Not the best movie I saw this month, but worth the $16 I paid to see it

Agree with almost all of this. I already said a few pages back I’m annoyed at the fat guy in an X-wing gets blown up trope. There was one in R1 also, right?

It is nice that us portly fellows get some screen time. When I heard my name was going to be ‘Porkins’ I thought they could not be serious but they were. Mind you I played a Character named Fatty too, so I guess I was typecast.

NFBisms said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.

My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.

They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.

It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal.
Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.

If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.

This is ludicrous. I know the movie hurt you bad but come on.

Also to a large percentage of us who grew up with Luke, TLJ Luke was fantastic. “Crapping all over Luke” is just your opinion.

Just a ludicrous as Lukes story base on his ROFTJ character. IF they can take Luke have luke make such a turn, why not Rey in the future? Nothing sacrosanct anymore in the SW universe.

Wasn’t the whole idea of the movie that Luke can still be a hero in spite of his failures? I think that’s an important message, because what if some kid fucks up and feels he can’t come back from that? I know I’ve had those moments growing up, and it’s cool that TLJ tries to show that you aren’t defined by your flaws, but the good that you do and can do. It’s a very human approach to the hero, and one that I think is important.

“No one’s ever really gone…”

I think that would have been a great point, but his failings were not true to who he was. The last Luke we saw, would risk and do anything for his friends and believed there was light in even the (second) darkest person in the universe. This luke actively ignored his friends and those needing his help and considered murdering his nephew in his sleep because saw the POTENTIAL of darkness.

Sure 30 years has passed, but that is still a massive leap in who this person is. If the movie wants to make that leap it needs to actually support it to make it believable. But we don’t see that and the leap does not make sense. Within the movie, no new bad thing has happened since ROTJ to Luke before he considers murdering his nephew in cold blood. From everything we know of Luke and Jedi, that moment seems inconceivable to me.

Given that the one single moment is what triggers much of the movie’s events I see it as a pretty big flaw. Now if you remove the context of the other movies than Luke and his story is easier to buy in TLJ

Mrebo said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.

My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.

They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.

It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal. Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.

If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.

This is ludicrous. I know the movie hurt you bad but come on.

Also to a large percentage of us who grew up with Luke, TLJ Luke was fantastic. “Crapping all over Luke” is just your opinion.

Just a ludicrous as Lukes story base on his ROFTJ character. IF they can take Luke have luke make such a turn, why not Rey in the future? Nothing sacrosanct anymore in the SW universe.

Porkins, stop expressing just your opinions already 😉

Let’s indulge a bit: what did you like about the TLJ?

Things I liked:

-The acting was one of the better of the SW franchise
-Visuals / Cinemaphotography was great
-Red Guards actually fighting was cool
-Lukes projection fight with Kylo
-Rey despite the Character Flaws
-Kylo being shown as Bad guy that is not just pure evil
-Leah using the force (but hated the way it was shot)
-Lukes moments with Chewie and R2
-No Jar Jar
-Fat in guy in X wing - Tubbs

• A few plot holes, but entertaining

If it was a non-cannon movie I would have no issue with it. Not the best movie I saw this month, but worth the $16 I paid to see it

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.

My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.

They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.

It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal. Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.

If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.

This is ludicrous. I know the movie hurt you bad but come on.

Also to a large percentage of us who grew up with Luke, TLJ Luke was fantastic. “Crapping all over Luke” is just your opinion.

Just as ludicrous as Lukes story base on his ROFTJ character. If they can have luke make such a dramatic turn, why not Rey in the future? Nothing is sacrosanct anymore in the SW universe.

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.

My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.

They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.

It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal. Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.

If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

Why though? EVERYONE has seen Star Wars, and if they have not they are going to go see a new SW movie.

Yes, but is it enough to sustain the franchise going forward with a film released every year? In the old Lucas era it worked, but for the future? They have a proven business model with the MCU universe, filled with a wide variety of colorful characters. It makes perfect business sense to transfer that model to the Star Wars universe. That’s what they’re doing now in my view.

Copying MCU (including the style) has worked great for DC right? TLJ tried to copy the flippant jokes of the MCU and it did not work. TLJ numbers are falling hard. This is playing out like Batman v Superman. The movie did not satisfy fans, but still did well, and DC did not get burned until the Justice League came out.

SW would be best not to try to be a copy of the MCU.

JJ. You are our only hope…

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

Why though? EVERYONE has seen Star Wars, and if they have not they are going to go see a new SW movie.

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

yotsuya said:

In real life there are two ways to acquire skills. First you find a teacher study work hard and grow your skills. The second way which is not uncommon, is that life gives you lessons and teaches you and forges your skills. In Star Wars the typical Jedi fashion is to find a teacher and learn and study. This is the root Luke takes. And then the quality of teaching is dependent on the quality of your teacher. We all know that Kenobi feels he was a bad teacher which is why Anakin fell. But in The Force Awakens we were introduced to Ray who’d grown up on the desert planet of Jakku. It was a hard life and she learned many lessons from it and gained many skills. This is a contrast to where we find Luke on Tatooine at his uncle’s Farm. He doesn’t appear to have learned many lessons and is woefully unprepared to be a Jedi. So in the course of the movies he has to be retrained. As Yoda said he has to unlearn what he has learned. This means the lessons he grew up with or the opposite of what he needed. That means the skills he learned in life or not what he needed to be a Jedi. But Rey on the other hand did learn the lessons she needed to become a Jedi from her life on Jakku. So the difference in training between the two goes back to the difference and backgrounds and the different skills that they acquired growing up and living their lives. Yoda had to correct things that Luke had wrong and consequently he could lift the X-Wing out of the swamp. He could barely lift stones. But Ray has no such doubts no such bad training. Instead she grew up with the right skills to tap into the force. I don’t know how you find her story inconsistent with the previous movies. It is there in the original trilogy. Luke had to be retrained. Ever tried to do that? That is 10 times harder than learning it in the first place.

And as I posted before, Ray does not pick up Force powers out of the blue. Everything she does she learns from Kylo Ren. She was already a skilled warrior with a staff when we meet her. She’s able to pick up a lightsaber and hold her own before kylo gives her the small lesson to tap into the force and a moment to do it. Andrea’s able to defeat him because of that moment Kylo Ren is not his full potential. Then in the Last Jedi when they face the praetorian guards you see the power difference between the two. Rey struggles to fight one on one but Kylo is fighting two or three at the same time and does much better. There’s a clear skill difference between the two and Kylo comes out on top.

I’ve only seen the movie twice so far but I have picked up on quite a few things. First off, Rey’s portrayal exactly matches her portrayal in The Force Awakens so any complaints about that have to be leveled at Abrams. I find that all the characters are very consistent with how Abrams treated them. For me Leia was the big Improvement by becoming a much stronger leader than we saw before. And given the backstory of Luke from The Force Awakens the Luke we are presented in this movie is right on target. Abrams made several critical mistakes and his movie by using his typical storytelling I’m leaving huge holes for someone else to fill. I think some of the difference in the way people take this movie is whether or not then like to Abrams did and wanted to see it answered, or didn’t like what he did and didn’t mind that it got thrown out the window. I don’t think Abrams is a good storyteller so I really didn’t care that all these things that he’s so carefully set up or thrown out. And really it was more the fans that hyped Rey’s parentage then the movie did. Her parents were left a mystery but Abraham said himself that her parents were not in the movie. So she was never going to be a Skywalker. And Kenobi was in the movie so she was never going to be a Kenobi. He really set it up that she was a nobody and just didn’t reveal that fact. And he’s the one who failed to reveal who Snoke was. Why was that even left a mystery? He’s the one who didn’t answer that question. He’s a bad Storyteller you don’t leave those questions to him to another Storyteller to answer, you answer them yourself. Was there any reason for Snoke to be a big mystery? No none. So the expectations that people have that weren’t met it’s Abrams fault. And now Abrams gets to come back and deal with the story is and come up with an ending. Something he sucks at. The only hope I see you for the next installment is a glimmer of hope that Lucas head outlined what the first side of the story was supposed to be and that Abrams follows it and has an ending.

To have two arguments that are going on are Abraham’s fault. If Rey is inconsistent with the original trilogy it’s his fault. If we don’t like where we find Luke in the story, it’s his fault. Well that one’s actually Lucas’s fault according to what I’m reading. Lucas said he was going to be an exile, Abrams went with that and establish the destruction of the Jedi Order and the fall of Ben Solo to Kylo Ren. So all almost all these arguments go back to the stupid things that Abraham’s did and we’re not paying the price because they were stupid. But everyone’s now blaming Rian Johnson because he’s trying to recover a good story from the junk that Abrams left behind. I found his slow chase to be much more interesting than the stupid Starkiller base. I found what he did to be much more intriguing I liked where he went with the characters and I like how he subverted what Abrams had started and did something that I felt was far more in keeping with the characters. So the quality of Rian Johnson story lies in he was true to the characters he was given. You may disagree about Luke and that’s fine, but I think he went in a great direction I felt like the Luke I saw was a direct offshoot of the Luke I grew up with. This whole Rey/Mary Sue argument really belongs in The Force Awakens thread because that’s where it started.

Some good points but I can’t agree with it all being Abrams fault. Luke in exile could have played out to be much more interesting. for example - maybe Snoke was getting inside Luke’s head and he realized he was not strong enough to resist him in part becuase he has seen too much darkness to truly believe in the light. Thus he exiled himself so he would not fall under Snokes power. When Rey comes, it gives ‘new hope’ that snoke can be defeated with Rey by his side or that Rey herself can bring balance back…

Then you cn build snoke up, give him a back story and give the Third movie some clear direction - defeat snoke.

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

Luke: “Is the dark side stronger?”
Yoda: “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.”

In TLJ Rey takes the path of the dark side in that she gets Force powers too easily, while Kylo Ren has trained his whole life, which is more of the original concept for the light side. The light and dark side’s have literally been inverted in the new trilogy, where the light path is actually the dark side, and the dark path is actually the light side.

said some guy on the interweb

I don’t see how this makes any sense at all.

Yoda was talking about choosing the quicker, easier path. Running off to save your friends before you’re ready, for instance. Rey had no choice to make the way Luke did - she was ready. Even if you think she didn’t struggle enough, you can’t blame her for that.

You’re really stretching to prove this movie got everything wrong.

Funny enough, I enjoyed the ‘movie’ in isolation, though I think the new Jamanji was much better. I just think this movie craps on the OT and the TFA.

I really hate how Rey is arguably the most powerful (or amongst the most powerful) force users ever right out of the gate when everyone else had to work at it.

So much was lost in the movie that could have been great

Luke: “Is the dark side stronger?”
Yoda: “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.”

In TLJ Rey takes the path of the dark side in that she gets Force powers too easily, while Kylo Ren has trained his whole life, which is more of the original concept for the light side. The light and dark side’s have literally been inverted in the new trilogy, where the light path is actually the dark side, and the dark path is actually the light side.

said some guy on the interweb

TV’s Frink said:

Lol…although how is he a descendant of a human from future earth? I thought that was Jabba.

I am glad you got a chuckle as that was my intent…

There was SW book that followed a group of 5000 humans from Earth in the 25th Century who fall into a black hole or some other plot device and end up in a galaxy far away in a time long long (long) ago. The first Solo was part of the 5000 humans. The humans then go on to populate the galaxy and are the source of all human we see in SW.

greenpenguino said:

How is this even a point of discussion? Rey clearly beat Kylo Ren at the end of TFA. I mean, maybe if you were watching the film with your eyes closed you’d think that but the visual language of the film, the score and what was going on in the plot all point toward the pretty damn obvious fact that Rey won.

Go back and watch the Ali V Foreman fight from 1974 - the Rumble in the Jungle. If the earth had parted somewhere in the 6th or early 7th round you would say Foreman won the fight, but Ali’s plan was to let Foreman think he was winning and tire him out - the old ‘rope a dope’. Ali, it turns out was in complete control of the fight despite what it looked like.

Cleary Kylo went for the ‘Rope a Dope.’ Given Kylo is a direct descendant of a human from future earth he may even know the Ali story and used it as inspiration.

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

nhoj3 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

It seems to me that the standard approach on this site is to claim that the other persons opinion is unjustifiable while the opinions of the current poster are correct.
Then, sit back and allow the mob mentality to kick in.

Um…did you actually read the conversation you quoted?

What was the context of the Force choke discussion anyway? Did it relate to anything in TLJ, or did someone mention it in passing, and it grew into this huge debate?

I brought it up in regards to options Luke may have had when his projection was fighting Kylo

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

Winning a battle is not about playing fair. That’s called sport. If Rey had the intention of killing Luke, he would be a Force ghost. Therefore, she won the fight. She cheated, and she, a complete novice, beat a Jedi Master.

The fact she was able to force grab the lightsaber and Luke was unable to stop this, makes her the winner. WE also know she out force grabbed Kylo.

She picked up the whole force grab thing way faster and better than Luke and Kylo who have been working on it for 30 years and most of his ife (I assume Ben Solo started training as child in the Jedi tradition)

Mrebo said:

Porkins4real said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.

“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”

If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.

Those statements certainly are inconsistent. I focused on specifically what Matt.F was taking issue with in his comments. In one was an actor’s misunderstanding of a term and in another an actor’s view of his character. No reason to get a bee in your bonnet.

He was talking to me I think.

Right, sorry Matt.F. just posted the link. Feel free to explain the apparent contradiction in your two sentences!

A joke, that didn’t play well in writing.

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.

“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”

If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.

Those statements certainly are inconsistent. I focused on specifically what Matt.F was taking issue with in his comments. In one was an actor’s misunderstanding of a term and in another an actor’s view of his character. No reason to get a bee in your bonnet.

He was talking to me I think.

TV’s Frink said:

Mielr said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mielr said:

DrDre said:

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

Which scene are you referring to?

ROTJ at Jabba’s palace when Luke force chokes the pigmen to gain access.

There are a few people here who believe Luke was using a mind trick to make them go to sleep.

Which I’m incredulous at…though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

Ahhh…I forgot about that. I think the pig guard put his hand up to his throat, didn’t he?

Quite.

Someone (can’t remember who) claimed he put his hands over his chest, which was apparently meant to show they’re going to sleep.

Lol.

I went back and watched again. It does look like he may of caused a 'Force Heart attack" to one of the pigmen. That would be a bada$$ Jedi move.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.

“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”

If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.

Sorry I should have added a smiley face to that comment as it was sarcasm. I believe Luke did force choke the pigman. If you go way back in this thread, I started the conversation in regards to what Luke could have done to Kylo as projection.

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.