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MaximRecoil

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2-Jun-2005
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7-Feb-2020
Posts
248

Post History

Post
#1133290
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

yhwx said:
Well, you cited Wikipedia…

And yes, before you “well actually” me, I know there are rules on Wikipedia, but an unmaintained Wikipedia page can have tons of misinformation on it.

Comparing Wikipedia to Urban Dictionary is utterly absurd, and you trying to hang a lampshade on it doesn’t negate the absurdity. The “Mary Sue” Wikipedia entry isn’t even remotely obscure/unmaintained. Just look at its lengthy “talk” page. Also, the parts I’ve quoted have citations, which are the actual sources.

No.

Your mere gainsaying is dismissed.

Post
#1133285
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

adywan said:

There are plenty of terms that started out as one thing and were distorted over time to be derogatory towards a certain race or sex. Mary Sue is one of those.

"Mary-Sue
A sexist term used to enforce the misogynistic ideals that female characters/authors shouldn’t be allowed to fantasize or write anything along the lines of wish fulfillment. Its misogynistic qualities are exemplified in many ways, most notably being the fact that it’s not a term dominated by the male counterpart despite existing in a patriarchal society, as well as the fact that the male counterpart is largely undecided upon in name and also undefined (see urban dictionary’s Gary Stu entry which has no definition but to say “A Male Mary Sue”, and the Marty-Stu entry which involves the “Mary Sue” definition to define it).

It’s usually used on the whole to bully new authors out of writing female characters altogether, making the task seem so daunting to some that they now only write slash fictions with two male characters, also exemplifying the misogynistic qualities this term involves."

You’re citing Urban Dictionary? Anyone can write absolutely anything on there and it remains forever. There is no oversight or rules whatsoever. If they tried to add that to Wikipedia it would quickly get deleted for being an NPOV violation, as well as having no citations. I could write an Urban Dictionary entry that says Mary Sue is the name of my plumber’s great-aunt.

The fact that Wesley Crusher was the most famous Mary Sue in mainstream fiction prior to Rey negates your assertions anyway (and negates the assertions of whoever wrote that Urban Dictionary entry).

Post
#1133281
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

yhwx said:
I don’t freaking care whether it’s a part of the “official” definition, it still has an inheriently mysogonist quality around, even if people don’t realize that (which may be caused by further sexism). It’s still a product of our sexist culture.

So noting that Wesley Crusher was a Mary Sue, is “inherently misogynistic”? How does that work? You realize that Wesley Crusher was a male character, right? Your mere assertion holds no water. It is simply the name of a type of character. By the way, the person who wrote the parody featuring the character for which the trope was subsequently named, is a woman (Paula Smith), which means the most famous person to mock the type of character now known as a Mary Sue, is a woman. I suppose she’s “misogynistic” too?

Post
#1133276
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

Haarspalter said:

MaximRecoil said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey’s marksmanship is a perfect example of the sexist bullshit that is the Mary Sue argument. Think how common it is in movies (not just Star Wars) that a guy picks up a gun for the first time and his aim and ability is never questioned. Yet they go out of their way to show that Rey isn’t perfect with a blaster but people call it out anyway.

Name some examples. I want examples where it is established that the character has never fired a gun before, and takes place in a story where a similar established character misses a lot, even though it shows that he already owns a gun.

f

f

Ellen Ripley isn’t an example.

Post
#1133275
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

TV’s Frink said:
If you can show me that Mary Sue isn’t used far more often than Gary Stu, I’d love to see it.

Mary Sue is used far more often, because Mary Sue is usually used to refer to characters of either sex. Once again:

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both sexes. A male can also be referred to as a Gary Stu, but more commonly either sex is called a Mary Sue. [2][3]

It is just the name of a trope. The sex of the character is not part of the definition, which is why the most famous Mary Sue prior to Rey was Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: TNG.

Post
#1133267
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

TV’s Frink said:
Thank you for proving my point.

This is a non sequitur, given that I proved no point of yours.

The only time anyone anyone pulls out Gary Stu is to defend their use of Mary Sue.

That assertion has already been confuted.

In fact, watch what happens when you search Wikipedia for Gary Stu:

Mary Sue
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Gary Stu)

Hahahaha.

What of it? Of course Gary Stu redirects to Mary Sue, because they refer to the same type of character. The term “Gary Stu” (and “Marty Stu”) is superfluous, but some people find them more fitting when referring to a male Mary Sue character.

Post
#1133264
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

TV’s Frink said:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Mary Sue is a derogatory term

Oh.

It is not “derogatory” in the sense that you used the term; you claimed it was misogynistic. It isn’t. It’s derogatory in the sense that a Mary Sue is a hallmark of bad writing, i.e., it isn’t a compliment to the writer if you point out that his character is a Mary Sue.

Post
#1133263
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

DominicCobb said:

Rey’s marksmanship is a perfect example of the sexist bullshit that is the Mary Sue argument. Think how common it is in movies (not just Star Wars) that a guy picks up a gun for the first time and his aim and ability is never questioned. Yet they go out of their way to show that Rey isn’t perfect with a blaster but people call it out anyway.

Name some examples. I want examples where it is established that the character has never fired a gun before, and takes place in a story where a similar established character misses a lot, even though it shows that he already owns a gun.

Post
#1133260
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

yhwx said:
Even though the exact number may be wrong, the point still stands.

What exact number, and what point? No point based on the assertion that “Mary Sue” is a “misogynistic” term can stand, because it is at odds with the widely accepted definition of the term, which you can read about on Wikipedia, TV Tropes, and various other places.

I’m gonna go with “no” on this one. It’s very hard to make the argument that a term using very clearly feminine names with a male-named counterpart is not gender specific.

It is not sex-specific. Once again:

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both sexes. A male can also be referred to as a Gary Stu, but more commonly either sex is called a Mary Sue. [2][3]

Note the parts I placed in bold.

The name of the trope, “Mary Sue”, was taken from the name of a character used in a parody that was written specifically to demonstrate this type of character.

Source?

This is your tacit admission that you haven’t even bothered to do your homework in order to avoid commenting on things you know nothing about:

The term “Mary Sue” comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story “A Trekkie’s Tale”[4]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[5]

Post
#1133249
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

yhwx said:

No, not having it.

It doesn’t matter whether you’re “having it” or not; it doesn’t change the facts whatsoever.

First of all, who the hell has ever called somebody a “Gary Stu,”

Your fellow Rey supporter NeverarGreat, to name one of countless people:

NeverarGreat said:

This is a good, well reviewed book:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/186074.The_Name_of_the_Wind
The main character is a Gary Stu.
Discuss. Or better yet, let’s not.

I suggest you do a Google search. “Gary Stu” is even mentioned in the opening paragraph of the Wikipedia “Mary Sue” article.

and second of all, the existence of a male counterpart to the name does not change the inherent misogynistic component of the other name.

There is no “inherent misogynistic component” of the term Mary Sue. It denotes a character type. The sex of the character isn’t part of the definition. “Mary Sue” is usually used for characters of either sex, but some people prefer to apply a similar sounding, but male, name to male examples of this character type.

Just because we have gendered insults for both genders doesn’t mean that one can’t be more problematic than the other.

You’re making stuff up. It isn’t a “gendered insult” at all. Also, the most famous Mary Sue prior to Rey was Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Post
#1133241
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

TV’s Frink said:

I have heard many men call female characters a Mary Sue. The only time I’ve ever heard anyone call someone a Gary Stu is in a sad desperate attempt to defend their use of Mary Sue.

Is that a joke? In this very thread someone (who seems to like the Rey character) replied to me with this post:

NeverarGreat said:

This is a good, well reviewed book:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/186074.The_Name_of_the_Wind
The main character is a Gary Stu.
Discuss. Or better yet, let’s not.

And whether or not anyone uses the term “Gary Stu” for a male character is irrelevant, because it has nothing to do with the fact that it isn’t a sex-specific term. It is a character-type specific term. The name of the trope, “Mary Sue”, was taken from the name of a character used in a parody that was written specifically to demonstrate this type of character.

You want to argue that Rey does not earn her abilities? I disagree with you, but feel free to make the argument.

You want to do it in a derogatory way? Congratulations.

You don’t get to redefine the term “derogatory”.

Also, rating TFA a -1/10 has always been and will continue to be nothing more than a troll move to illicit negative reactions. So again, congratulations.

You don’t get to redefine the term “troll” either. If I don’t like a movie at all, I give it a 1/10. I don’t rate movies based on technical merits such as production values and such; I rate them strictly based on how well I liked the movie. It is the same score I gave it on IMDb the night I saw it in the theater in 2015.

Post
#1133239
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

adywan said:

So, apart from hitting two troopers with 3 shots (not exactly expert and the second trooper wasn’t exactly a quick turn around shot either)

She hit 3 troopers with 4 shots, with the only shot missed being the first time she ever fired a blaster. And yes, the 3rd trooper she hit was a quick turn-around shot. The second one sort of was too, for that matter, not to mention being at relatively long range for a handgun.

you make excuses for the other two times she shoots at anything.

I’m not making “excuses”. The movie isn’t clear about the other two times, as I’ve already pointed out. However, there were at least two shots she fired at Kylo Ren that would have definitely hit, because he deflected them with his lightsaber.

So where the hell is there any indication that she is an expert?

Three shots, three kills, one-handed grip (far less stable than a two-handed grip), two of which appeared to be at a range of 25 yards or so, within 30 seconds of firing a blaster for the first time, and without even the most rudimentary instruction from anyone.

Your excuses actually show that there is no way to know if she is a good shot or not.

See above.

I wonder if you say the same thing about Luke, who had NO combat experience, as far as we knew through the film had never fired a gun before, yet was able to expertly shoot out the door controls from the other side of the hangar bay with one shot?

Luke had a gun and carried it with him on Tatooine when he went searching for R2D2. You think he’d never fired his own gun before (we know that Rey had never fired one before because the movie made a point of letting us know that she never had)? Also, he missed what he was shooting at with the stormtrooper’s blaster many times. Look at how many times he fired at the stormtroopers on the other side of the chasm before hitting one of them, and he was even using a two-handed grip, and with three of the standing close together, forming a bigger target. I counted eight shots, one hit.

Post
#1133164
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

adywan said:

Maybe you should go back and watch the film. Rey fires twice before hitting the first trooper and then fires twice to hit the second one and then runs off.

No, she fires once to hit the second one. You’re confusing the sound of the trooper firing at her as she’s turning to fire, for her having fired twice. Watch it frame by frame.

Both times she misses with her first shot.

No, only on her first shot did she miss. See above.

Then the next time she shoot a gun is when Kylo is approaching her and he is originally just a few feet from her, yet she still doesn’t get a hit (kylo doesn’t even deflect all of them as her shots hit the rocks next to him)and, when he finally gets her trapped it is still hit and miss.

That’s not the next time she shoots. She hits another trooper with one shot, and that was with a quick turn-around shot no less. As for Kylo Ren, it had already been established in the movie that he can use the force to manipulate fired blaster bolts, to the point of even freezing them in mid-air for an extended period of time, so there’s no way to know if her aim is off or if he’s altering the course of the bolt.

Next time she even fires a gun is when Han is killed and her aim is all over the place. Finn is also firing and yet they only manage to hit 2 troopers, and that could have been Finn hitting his mark.

They don’t even show where her shots were going in that scene. They showed her firing but kept the camera on her, and when they did cut away they showed two troopers getting shot, with no indication of who fired the shots. In other words, that scene is irrelevant, because the camera didn’t show whether she hit anything or not.

Post
#1133158
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

adywan said:

Wrong. She attempts to fire the pistol at the Maz’s castle attack and forgets the safety is on. Then fires and misses before hitting the trooper and then runs away when the other troopers start firing.

Exactly. She goes from a complete novice who has never fired a gun, to an expert after missing just one shot (every subsequent shot was a hit).

And Rey never fires the turret at any time in the movie. Finn is the one using the turret gun

He said “aim the turret while piloting”, which she most certainly did, in one of the most blatant Mary Sue moments of the whole movie.

Rey does not leave out of loyalty. The second they escape the planet, and throughout, she wants to return home but circumstances prevent this. It’s only later on in the film that she decides to stay.

No one was after her initially, they were after the BB8 droid. If not for loyalty to the droid and to Finn she could have simply gone about her scavenging business and she wouldn’t have been involved in any of the events.

And yet he was able to masterfully fly an X-wing, a ship that he had no experience with and had only ever flown a speeder in atmosphere, whereas Rey had said she had piloted ships, albeit only in atmosphere as well…

Luke didn’t masterfully fly the X-wing. He almost crashed (“I got a little cooked but I’m okay”) and was saved by others from being shot down, most notably by Han Solo when Darth Vader had him locked on target and was about to pull the trigger. Additionally, Biggs vouched for Luke when the leader questioned whether he could handle the X-wing: “Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories,” which establishes that his existing piloting experience is relevant to piloting an X-wing.

The term “Mary Sue” is a misogynistic term,

That assertion has already been confuted, which negates it. The definition refers to a type of character, without regard to the character’s sex:

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both sexes. A male can also be referred to as a Gary Stu, but more commonly either sex is called a Mary Sue. [2][3]

no matter how much you want to pussy foot around it by saying its used for men too. Because it isn’t anywhere near as often as it is towards a female character. . It was used against Rey for the sole fact that she was female by all those idiots that saw her as nothing more than the “Disney agenda” of giving females a strong role. Same crap was thrown at the main character of Rogue One. The second someone uses the term “Mary sue” invalidates any argument.

First of all, the term isn’t applied to many characters at all (at least not correctly), because Mary Sue characters typically only exist in bad fan fiction which hardly anyone reads. Note that no one (that I know of) calls Ellen Ripley from Alien, or Sarah Connor from Terminator 2 a Mary Sue. I haven’t seen any significant number of people referring to the main character of Rogue One as a Mary Sue either. Rey turned the formerly obscure “Mary Sue” term into a household term, even though she wasn’t even close to being the first female lead in a major movie. This negates your assertions, but more importantly, your demonstrably false premise negates your assertions.

Post
#1133145
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

SilverWook said:

Getting thrown into a bar table is being beaten up?

If you put someone on the floor, whether via a punch, push, or throw, and they show no indication of being willing or able to fight back, what do you call it? Legally it would be considered assault and/or battery. He was still on the floor until Obi-Wan helped him up after cutting the guy’s arm off, about 30 seconds later, more than long enough to have been “counted out” had it been a refereed fight, which is considered a “knockout”.

Either way, regardless of what you call it, it doesn’t change the point.

Post
#1133129
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

NeverarGreat said:
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1069656

Rey is more of a Mary Sue than the Mary Sue for which the trope was named, which is funny, considering that, that Mary Sue was already intended to be an exaggerated parody of that type of character. The Mary Sue in the trope-naming parody had at least been through Starfleet Academy, while Rey was nothing more than a scavenger. You’d be hard pressed to find a more blatant Mary Sue than Rey anywhere, even if you look in fan fiction.

This is from a post on another forum, comparing Rey to Luke, by a poster with the username Jedan_Archer:

Quote:

Luke goes indeed from zero to hero (Hero’s journey character). If you really put ANH-Luke and TFA-Rey together, it becomes evident. Most important elements are:

  • Rey understands all languages, including Wookie (!) and droid speak (!!) - Luke does not;

  • Rey is a formidable fighter beating up thugs and scaring scavengers away from their loot - Luke is not, he is beaten up several times (by the sand people & in the bar) and is in need of protection and help throughout the movie (Han, Obi Wan);

  • Rey despite being raised by ruthless scavengers such as Unkar Putt has developed an superhuman morality motivating her to starve rather than to betray a little droid she just met – Luke treats droids like property/slaves;

  • Rey immediately is an (untrained) formidable marks man hitting everything at a great distance while running away and shooting a stranger’s gun; Rey can even (incredibly) aim with the turret while she is piloting - Luke cannot, he is an average shot at best missing many shots;

  • People and droids follow Rey like puppies, especially BB-8 (who is useless because Rey does all mechanics/engineering and door opening alone) – Luke seems not to have this fascinating effect, his droid R2 tricks him and runs away from him;

  • Rey wants to stay home but only leaves for loyalty to her new friends and destiny - Luke wants to leave home, but stays out of weakness and loyalty (Owen/Beru);

  • Rey is her own master and independent – Luke is not;

  • Rey is an ace climber and spelunker - Luke is not;

  • Rey the scavenger is an incredible ace pilot: Without a copilot or any experience with the ship she masterfully pilots the bulky Falcon through an abandoned destroyer and graveyard under fire outmaneuvering trained combat pilots - Luke does not even understand how the cockpit of the MF works (“what’s that flashing?”);

  • While flying alone, Rey performs incredible stunt piloting moves, including aligning the Falcon in midair so that Finn just has to pull the trigger (“How did you do that? - I don’t know – That was some flying – It was PERFECT”) - Luke however is mocked, derided and not allowed to pilot, despite being set up as a pilot; and even in empty space in his X-Wing Luke needs constant assistance from R2 and other pilots and Han, who sacrifice themselves for him.

  • Rey circumvents the security of Starkiller so that the explosive charges can be placed and the SK base be destroyed - Luke has no such abilities, he needs R2 to get saved from the trash compactor;

  • Rey saves herself out of captivity, and only does not flee so that the team can blow up Starkiller, without her they would be lost - Luke plan to save Leia is amateurish and Leia takes over the lead when his poorly thought out plan fails miserably;

  • Rey is an incredible mechanic and even a brilliant engineer stunning even Han (“I bypassed the compressor”) - Luke does not show such talents;

  • Rey can do advanced Jedi Force tricks without training, like telekinesis, mind tricks, mind reading etc - Luke needs training for very basic Force abilities (knowing when to shoot the torpedo), and only reaches Rey’s ability level when he is a trained Jedi;

  • Rey beats the main antagonist (Kylo, Master of the Ren) several times with untrained Force and sword skills - Luke does not even come near the main antagonist (Vader), except for being nearly shot down by him and being saved by others;

  • Rey is better with everything and bests everyone at their game (Han, Finn, Kylo, droids etc), even Luke & Poe were partially removed from the script so they cannot steal her spotlight; everybody becomes her cheerleader (Leia, Chewie, Finn etc) - Luke is a whiny, reckless loser at the beginning: Han is cooler, Obi is more powerful, Leia his sister is lightyears ahead of him (Leader, senator), his friends such as Biggs are ahead of him too;

  • Rey is the only hot young girl around with a posh accent - Luke is an average small farmboy, one of many kids, who mostly left him behind already;

  • Rey gets a glorification hug for no apparent reason from the VIP Resistance leader (Leia) instead of her old friend Chewie or all the returning heroes who Leia leads - Luke does not get any unwarranted hugs but after he succeeds and after he becomes friends with the huggers (Leia/Han);

  • Rey becomes captain of the MF after Han’s death, stepping over Chewie who “likes her” and looks at her in an adoring way (like everybody else, the Rebels are even waving her collectively goodbye when she leaves) - Luke does not get any positions and is violently pushed away by Chewie;

  • Rey is sent on the most important mission to find Luke, leaving all his friend and family behind her - Luke does not get any solo missions;

  • Rey is so important and special that even long lost light sabers and dead VIP masters like Obi Wan and Yoda call out to her - nobody really calls out to Luke;

  • Rey is desired by everybody, but she is hard to get: she either friend zones or emasculates the characters who are fascinated by her - Luke does not even get the girl in the end. In the end, Rey gets Han’s gun and ship, Luke’s light saber and R2-droid, and Chewie as a copilot - and she finds MacGuffin-Luke: she is the SOLE HEIR and SAVIOUR of the SW UNIVERSE - Luke gets a medal, but only next to Han, who already is successfully flirting with Luke’s wanna-be girlfriend and sister!

Post
#1133114
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

Personally, I’ll take a “Mary Sue” over an annoying character any day.

I would too, if I didn’t find Mary Sue characters annoying. The most annoying characters in the Star Wars movie series are (in my opinion):

  1. Rey
  2. Jar Jar Binks
  3. Jake Lloyd’s Anakin Skywalker

I’d probably find Hayden Christensen’s Anakin Skywalker annoying too if he wasn’t so [unintentionally] comical.

Post
#1133110
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Isn’t Anakin the very definition of a Mary Sue? At least in TPM he is. He’s the best pilot in the world at age 5 for no reason other than that he’s supposed to be.

No, he isn’t a Mary Sue. First, not everyone loves him or is otherwise fascinated by him. Obi-Wan doesn’t seem to care much for him, and neither does Yoda or the rest of the Jedi council. All of them think it’s a bad idea to train him. He is also a slave, and his owner, Watto, thinks so little of him that he doesn’t mind putting his ownership of him up as stakes in a bet.

Second, he never intentionally used the force, which is how it should be, because he hadn’t had any force training yet. He used it unconsiously, to enhance skills that he had already learned in the conventional way, which is in line with Qui-Gon’s explanation to his mother. When we meet him, he has already podraced many times, and has failed many times. His other significant accomplishment of the movie, destroying the ship that controlled the droid army, was something he bumbled into in Jar Jar Binks fashion. Autopilot got him most of the way there in the first place, and then he started trying random things, which resulted in a stray shot hitting the reactor.

He was an annoying character, but he wasn’t a Mary Sue.

Post
#1133100
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Oh good, another "TFA is so terrible it gets a -1 and also I’m going to use a shitty misogynistic term to describe the main character,

^^^ Case in point, with regard to what I said about many people not even knowing what a Mary Sue is. It is not even remotely a “misogynistic” term, given that it isn’t even a sex-specific term. It denotes a type of character, male or female is irrelevant. The optional, equivalent term for such a character, if male, is “Gary Stu”, or “Marty Stu”.

which is even more galling considering the fact that all the sexual abuse that has been going on for generations is finally just barely coming to light" troll.

Say what? “Sexual abuse”? How’s the weather out today there in deep, deep left field? Your entire post is a non sequitur, and as such, consider it dismissed out of hand.

Post
#1133086
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

NeverarGreat said:
This is a good, well reviewed book:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/186074.The_Name_of_the_Wind
The main character is a Gary Stu.
Discuss. Or better yet, let’s not.

I’m not going to read that book, nor is “well reviewed” a guarantee of good writing (The Force Awakens is well reviewed too), nor am I going to simply take your word for it that the main character is a Mary Sue. Given that one of the most common arguments from Rey apologists is, “If Rey was a Mary Sue then so was Luke,” it’s obvious that many people don’t know what a Mary Sue is. Luke wasn’t even close to being a Mary Sue.

Post
#1133064
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

I will never understand not ranking AOTC as the worst Star Wars film.

Unless you’re including the Holiday Special. Or maybe the 2008 TCW movie, but even that is better than AOTC for me.

The worst one is the one centered around a “Mary Sue” character, given that a Mary Sue character is a poster child for bad writing; so bad that it normally only appears in the worst examples of fan fiction.