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Laserman

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Join date
11-May-2004
Last activity
6-Sep-2007
Posts
903

Post History

Post
#92265
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/92265/action/topic#92265
Time
By all means do it DB, and post the results. It would be interesting to compare a 3D rendered version vs the 2D solutions. I would really like to see what you come up with.
It would take about 15 mins to do in EI.
Electric image is old and clunky though - if you want the 3D approach I would use Maya or 3DS MAX and the renderer of choice.
The problem with most of these solutions is that the crawl is far too smooth. Adding an expression to dirty up the movement ever so slightly gives a more natural looking result - but it is really personal preference
Post
#86755
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/86755/action/topic#86755
Time
Thanks to everyone for their kind words and feedback. Glad to see some changes made here that will help this be a fun place to hang out again.

I did a lot of thinking over the past few weeks, (and talking with the family) and have almost convinced myself to get back on the horse and re-instate the X0 project as a happening thing. But it is going to take some preparation and some organising...

Sooo..... Stay tuned for an announcement in the next couple of weeks, it should be a good one!

Cheers

Laserman.
Post
#85898
Topic
StarWarsLegacy.com - The Official Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/85898/action/topic#85898
Time
I agree wholeheartedly, for me it is about recreating how I felt in 1977 as a kid watching in awe.
Even then there were one or two things that pulled me out of the movie for a few seconds and broke the spell, (now there are a lot more) and for my own version I intend to fix anything that breaks you out of the moment.
Getting lost in the film is what its about for me, and I can't do that with the laserdisc version, and I absolutely can't with the SE DVD!
Post
#85437
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/85437/action/topic#85437
Time
I'll check back in a week when I get back home and have thought more about this. At this point I haven't given the X0 files off to mebejdi or zion or anyone else. I'm still trying to decide whether its worth sharing what has been done so far or not. When you stop enjoying it, it's usually time to stop in my experience. *edit* When I look at it logically, DanielB is the one thing that stopped it being fun, but that is what triggered me to rethink the whole thing really, so I've got to make my own decision. *edit*

Anyway, I'm going to cruise for a week now, it will probably become clear what to do all by itself. It usually does when I leave it alone for a while.

Cheers all, I 'll chat to you next week.

LM.

Post
#85436
Topic
A message to Jay in regards to DanielB
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/85436/action/topic#85436
Time
The problem is when they hijaak your thread, and others that you used to enjoy reading, that you can't not read what they type.
That's my whole point. I'm not an overly sensitive person at all. Its just I don't keep hitting my thumb with a hammer if I can help it.

I come here because it is fun and I enjoy it and the people. When it stops being fun or interesting, then there is no point to hang around anymore. That's all I was trying to say really, is that when it becomes just a pain to come here, then its time to move on and do something else. It really is a moderation issue more than anything else, if a board is moderated correctly then trolls and troll flamers (unfortunately I also have been the latter here) are pulled up and it doesn't get out of hand, or at least can be ignored.
Post
#85430
Topic
A message to Jay in regards to DanielB
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/85430/action/topic#85430
Time
Most forums I participate in are moderated, and I think it is a good idea. People can mostly have free reign, but I can't see the point of letting someone repeatedly hijaak threads when their point of view is already well known and has been clearly expressed.
My feeling for forums is that if a thread has something you aren't intrested in, then you can go over there once and state why you don't agreee with it/why it isn't your thing, but then you leave it alone.
If you still feel strongly about it, you post your own thread and debate it there. Otherwise it is like a board meeting with no adgenda and no chairperson. It just degrades into chaos. An ignore feature can also help.
Most people understand this type of thing, moderators are required for when people don't. It's not about stifling anyone, more about keeping things on track and allowing people choice.

This achieves multiple things.

1) It keeps the thread on topic.
2) It allows a separate forum for offshoot discussions about the pros/cons/ philosophical issues of it all
3) It allows the original topic owner, and his/her interested parties to not take place in a discussion about philosophical disagreemnts and so on if they wish not to.
4) It allows the person with the disagreement to discuss and air their views, but gives other forum users the choice to read them and respond, or more importantly *not* to read them or respond.

For me, I already know, and understand DanielB's views, and accept his right to have them. What I can't stand is having them repeatedly forced down my throat, and seeing the same thing happen to others. When you are already doing something just for love, and there are a million reasons to stop doing it, having someone berate you and other like minded people can be enough to make you give it up.
For example, on of the big reasons I got involved here was to help others do whatever it was they wanted to do with the OT. I come here mainly because I enjoy the people, the chat, the transfer of ideas.

Seeing what people have managed to achieve, giving out advice and receiving it. It felt like a nice, friendly place full of people with similar interests. Once people start inflaming others and getting on their high horse and making statements like " It pains me to see this forum being used for projects like yours" and "remember that you are not involved in the original trilogy preservation" (that from someone who is actually doing *nothing* themselves, is really upsetting) , and statements like 'Yeah that sounds like something you would do" when watermarking a WIP, and much worse... it just p***es you off and makes you not want to be here. Regardless of intent, they do nothing but make you wish you hadn't bothered, and make you wonder why the hell you decided to share what you are doing anyway.
Those sort of statements made repeatedly don't have a place in the persons thread who is actually doing the work. Start another thread if you like, but polluting an original thread is a no-no.

On a well moderated board, I would have seen his views once, and then got on with my own stuff without being disturbed by it further, or could'v gone toe to toe in a separate thread about the issue, not inside the thread about the project.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Perhaps if we could all agree to keep the threads on topic, and keep views expressed in them to critique of technique, results method etc. and take any personal greivances off to a 'personal greivance' thread.
DanielB, what I would like to see from you is exactly the above. Respect other peoples work, and refrain from commenting on it in their thread - if you feel you must comment, start a new thread about it, and leave the original thread alone. That way, everyone has their rights respected and evryone gets a choice.

Now back to my holiday.




Post
#85413
Topic
Idea &amp; Info Wanted: Dreaming of the <em>ultimate</em> LD transfer
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/85413/action/topic#85413
Time
It's pretty obvious here that some of you know almost nothing about how laserdisc works, and are assuming that it is like CD or DVD which is not the case.
You need to get away from the 'digital' mindset, that the data is just read of the LD as some info which is then simply output ot PAL or NTSC. This is not how laserdisc works. I don't mean to sound mean, but suggestions without any knowledge or research are mostly wasted as the reality is so complex that the chance of 'stumbling' across a solution is almost infinitely small. I'd suggest anyone wanting to contribute to the Franken-X0 discussion do some reading and research offline first.

Some background will probably be helpful here.
1) PAL vs NTSC. Its not just the framerate. The big differences as far as laserdisc goes are:

a) Different rotational speed. NTSC CAV = 1800RPM PAL CAV=1500RPM NTSC CLV = 1800 down to about 600RPM, PAL CLV = 1500 to about 500RPM

b) 3:2 Pulldown. This is where it gets frankly amazing. You all know that for NTSC they do the perverse 3:2 pulldown, wherin you use a film frame for the first 3 fields, then grab the next frame and use it for 2 fields, and then start again. (Grabbing the next frame is referred to as 'pulling it down' hence the 3:2 pulldown name. They used to just repeat the 4th frame which gives the awful juddering you can see on some early telecines.
Now to do this on Laserdisc, they player has to know which two adjacent fields actually make up the frame (othewise you might get one field from one frame of film, and the other field from a diferent frame - not good). So how does an analogue system cope with this? Easy, encode the required information in the VBI (the vertical blank interval). When making the disc, you store the info in the VBI, its often referred to as a 'white flag'. When you hit the pause button on a CAV disc, it reads the flag, and the laser assembly actually does a one track reversal (i.e. 2 fields) and can then redisplay the current frame. It is set in the VBI area outside of picture info, or CC info (its at line 11 or 274 depending on the field). If you get it wrong, the pause feature will have a 'jiggling' frame for 40% of the frames! You can see this on some discs. Sometimes just the 'picture number' is used instead, which is also encoded into the VIL.
PAL on the other hand needs none of this, they just play at 25fps, like the way DVD does in that respect. This makes PAL very attractive for conversion as there is no difficult IVTC to contend with.

c) Frequency and colourburst. The frequency of PAL is 50Hz, and of NTSC 60Hz (for this discussion anyway). Laserdiscs are composite video, which in simple terms means a black and white image with a colourburst signal. Even black and white laserdiscs have to contain the colourburst signal. The colourburst signal from PAL and from NTSC are also very different, and because of PAL's encoding, there is no need for the 'hue' adjustment you see on NTSC TVs. On PAL , red is just red - end of story.

d) Analogue Video. Video is stored on the laserdisc on one long spiral of pits of infinitely variable length (the analogue part). For NTSC the baseband CV signal of around 4.2MHz wide is used to modulate a FM carrier signal (about 8.5MHz or so) . This results in a variable amplitude of 7.5Mhz to 9.3MHz, which gives you an analogue rendition of video (Its at this point that it is something near video, but still not something you could directly output to a TV) . It is not digital video, so what is on the disc is not anything that is directly manipulatable or 'interceptible' to turn it from NTSC to PAL.
Now because it is *not* digital, it is actually possible to swap laser transports between different models, and this has actually been done in the past. It also means that laserdiscs are weird and wonderful beasts with analogue braking mechanisms, and all sorts of amazingly bizarre mechanisms to track the spiral and focus etc. They are absolutely not anything like a CD player in that regard, and the video extraction is absolutely not like DVD or VGA - TV for example.

d) Resolution. This is where it gets really interesting for us. In letterbox mode, NTSC discs have a vertical resolution of just 480 vs PAL 576 lins. This may not seem a big deal, but when ou get down to letterbox, that leaves NTSC with a measly 272 lines of resolution! PAL by contrast has 327 available lines (obviously depending on the aspect ratio, but the above is pretty much what you get on Star Wars), so around 20% more. When the baseline is so low this can really make a difference - hence the interest in the PAL laserdiscs as a master.



Now in NTSC laserdiscs, there is no error correction, unlike DVD, so the means of making sure you get a watchable picture are purely analogue. On the X0 for instance, there are multiple output stages to average out any errors, on other players they employ a range of techniques to get a decent picture out the other end.

They are a truly fascinting system, but also horribly horribly complex, and take a non-digital mindset to understand them They actually have a lot more in common with VHS than they do with DVD or CD as far as the video goes.
Post
#85008
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/85008/action/topic#85008
Time
I just thought I'd drop into an internet cafe and see if anything was new, and got to read DanielB's posts here and in Mverta's thread as well.

1) DanielB, your comments are rude and ungracious at best, and divisive, inflammatory and unfathomable at worst. You go on about mverta not being a part of the restoration, when you are not a part of anything - except a destructive force.

2) I have no problem with you hypothesizing weird and wonderful theories about laserdisc players, but when you bag out others who actually have *some* knowledge of how these things work, and have actually spent real time and money and initiative to research *factual* possibilities, it is going beyond what is acceptable really. From your comments you obviously have no idea how an analogue laserdisc player works, and absolutely no concept at all of the internals of an X series player. Suggestions are fine, ideas are fine, but kicking other people's when you actually don't know anything is just not cool.

3) Please get it thorugh your head here that no-one is *really* involved in film preservation here. N-O O-N-E. The AFI has preserved the original films - it is done. These forums are about people trying to convince Lucas to release the OT on DVD and about people trying to get something close to an OT available for the masses if that doesn't work. The laserdiscs are NOT the OT as it was seen in theaters, so lose that notion and do everyone a favour.

I have had a policy of trying to be level headed and reasonable and to attempt to take the time out to answer any questions/suggestions here, no matter how misguided, but I can't deal with the nature and tone of your comments anymore, or the way you hijaak threads like mverta's. Your views are your own and that is OK, but to go preaching them into threads that you *know* are about the work of people that you don't agree with is just warlike and ungracious. These people spend a lot of their own time and money on this stuff because like you they love the films, but unlike you have the balls and drive to try to do something about it - and you shit on them. Its your right in a 'free speech' society, but it is also others rights to be able to do the same to you. That doesn't mean it is a responsible or nice thing for you to do though does it?

I've spent over 5 grand, and who knows how many months/years of my time in the quest to get the OT available in the best form possible (as GL has obviously decided not to), other people have put in similar or greater effrorts, and your posts (whether intentional or not - it doesn't matter, because this is the actual result) make us want to throw our hands up and walk away. They really really do.
It only makes it seem more exasperating when you don't even try to do anything yourself or support others in any meaningful way.

On another note, mybreak from this has made me look at it all again. I was really doing this because I thought there was a massive interest in seeing the OT in great quality on DVD here. (You know, 60,000 signatures and such), but the interest shown by people here has come to the sum total of 3 people (outside of karyudo, zion, adigitalman and mebejedi) that have any interest in the X0 version. I have had a total of 2 offers for financial support.

So it looks like the obsession was mostly misplaced, and mostly mine, and does little in reality than upset people like DB, and keep me away from my family, so I've decided enough is enough, and going on the tiny amount of interest, I don't think it will matter anyway, and my family will be happy to see me at night again.

To the two people that offered support, I'll burn you a disc if and when I ever finish it, and you can have it for free. I may do it in pieces for my own amusement later on, but consider the X0 project closed - I just don't need the grief, and the interest doesn't seem to be there anyway.

To Karyudo, thanks so much for your committment and all your help. I'll be in touch when I get back re our other stuff - it will be much more fun anyway, and we will definately do that stuff.
To AdigitalMan, Mebejedi, Silverwook, Zion and others I have forgotten at the moment. I'll be in contact via e-mail - thanks also for your support, feedback and groundbreaking work. To the two or 3 people that offered help, thank you also it was much appreaciated.

I probably won't be back here, I think the battle is lost, and not many people really care much anymore, or at least not enough to do something practical about it, and to me that is the definition of caring - Taking action that may be difficult/expensive/unpleasant in the interest of something you love.

Goodbye all, and thanks for a wild ride.

-Peter (laserman)

T
Post
#83315
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/83315/action/topic#83315
Time
You pick a frame, and I'll match it (i.e. I can't bloody remember and won't be back for a while, so it will be easier for me to match yours)
All I am really trying to tell here is if my newly acquired 2950 is working to spec.
Norinrad, I'd love it if you could do one also - a compare of the 2950 vs 925 would also be useful. (capture issues aside for the moment)