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Laserman

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11-May-2004
Last activity
6-Sep-2007
Posts
903

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Post
#137848
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/137848/action/topic#137848
Time
Well, in Australia it is illegal to even 'backup' a CD or video - other countries may vary. I don't think it would wash that it was a backup of your discs either, unless it actually was *your* discs being backed up.

Laserdisc doesn't have a bitrate, so that is a bit of a mixed statement. Laserdisc doesn't suffer from MPEG artifacts, but seriously, an anamorphic well encoded DVD will beat an NTSC letterbox laserdisc unless there is something seriously seriously wrong with the DVD encode.

The audio isn't necessarily of higher quality either - many Laserdiscs and DVDs have the identical 5.1 soundtrack, bit for bit.
The reason *some* laserdiscs sound better (in 5.1) is that there was sometimes a different mix for the laserdisc and the DVD, and the DVD one was compromised to get a mix that would still sound 'good' when mixed back down to stereo or mono. ("Heat" is a good example of such a disc - the laserdisc has a much much better sound mix).

On your other statement re current bootlegs, and people not coming after them - I won't comment except to say I disagree.

The movie houses are getting more and more litigious, it is harder to go after copies of Laserdiscs because they had no form of 'copy protection' to break, so it is only the copyright breach (unlike DVDs which get covered by the DMCA in the US which makes it a crime to circumvent copy protection) but there is nothing to stop them coming after anyone, even after a long period of time.

Post
#137582
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/137582/action/topic#137582
Time
Yeah, there is an immediately noticable differencee, I've blind tested it on friends at my place a few times, and they always pick the PCM track.
But for a normal TV or 'all in one' surround system, the difference would be irrelevant.
I'll be keeping the PCM track, have no interest whatsoever in doing a SL disc, if anyone wants one they could alwyas dvdrecode or dvdshrink the thing.
Post
#137344
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/137344/action/topic#137344
Time
Originally posted by: Moth3r
Originally posted by: Laserman
But anyway they will be different in that the PAL scene will be missing some of the picture, and will run at a different frame rate with the corresponding problem of everyone speaking as if they have had a very mild dose of Helium.
The audio on the UK VHS (and also I assume on the French Laserdisc boxed set with English audio) has been sped up with the pitch preserved, so the helium effect is no present.



True, but if you use the VHS audio, then you are missing out on the loveliness that is the PCM digital stereo track. The VHS audio is pretty good, but when you A/B it on my gear, the PCM track is definately preferred, and everyone stops rushing their lines ;^)


Post
#137343
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/137343/action/topic#137343
Time
I didn't mean for people to think that it was going to be anything like a pan and scan version
But was pointing out that if your TV is already a bit agressive on overscan, and you then add a more tightly cropped source then you are missing quite a bit of information compared to watching the less tightly cropped source on a system with no overscan (like a PC, or adjusted TV or a fixed panel device).
But no of course it won't be losing anything like P&S.
Post
#137252
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/137252/action/topic#137252
Time
Was that the Japanese or US definitive?

BTW, on black levels there are multiple ways to tackle it. I just re-read my previous explanation, and it isn't very clear.
The problem is American NTSC analogue devices, wether VHS, S-VHS, Hi 8 or Laserdisc, outputs black at 7.5 IRE.
i.e. the black output from them isn't at a voltage of Zero (unlike PAL and even Japanese NTSC) but is in fact 0.0536V (If it is correct, in the real world various players vary in their accuracy)
If you plug your laserdisc player into a video capture card that expects 0IRE then you might need to use a proc amp to set the analogue output to 0 IRE. If you don't do this, when you move from analog into digital, then your DVD's will look extremely washed out. You will get the same problem with most DV camcorders as well if you are getting your laserdisc to digital by plugging it into your camcorder.
You can get a reasonable proc amp here. http://www.signvideo.com/single_dual_proc-amp_video-processor.htm
Programs like Final Cut Pro have a 'virtual proc amp' built into the software.

Some capture cards can be set to expect an Input IRE of 7.5 for black, so set it if you need to.

I can post some waveforms from the scope of PAL vs NTSC colourbars, with and withour pedestal if anyone is interested, but basically just remember this.
If you get it wrong when you take an analogue source and make a US NTSC DVD, your blacks get raised twice by the time you see the picture on your telly, and the picture will not have *any* true blacks, will look washed out, will have a compressed range, and you will have to adjust your set away from what it *should* be just to get a decent black level.
Post
#137243
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/137243/action/topic#137243
Time
Yeah, that is a great one, quite a few scene changes have the cadence out of whack.

I'll have to double check that scene in Jedi now to make sure we got them all.

I think people will want both an NTSC and a PAL version in their arenals. The main aim with the NTSC ones is that the result is better than the NTSC laserdiscs themselves, so that the LDs can finally become redundant as an 'archival' version of the OT.


Post
#136996
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/136996/action/topic#136996
Time
Once I get your project downloaded citizen, I'll do some screengrabs of the worst of the NTSC scenes to compare with the PAL source, scenes like Leia in the war room with the 'green grid' in the background etc.

As for removing the 3:2 pulldown (i.e. Inverse telecine or IVTC) it was the first thing that was done to bring it back to the original 24 progressive frames. It was a bitch too, as there are errors on the laserdisc in some scenes where the 3:2 gets out of whack, so has to be manually adjusted.

We haven't even *looked* at the audio side of things at the moment, so no comments there.

As for the NTSC version having more detail, and us 'conquering' NTSC and PAL land, well, neither is strictly true. They are just different beasts, and each will have its advantages and disadvantages.

I think some scenes will look subjectively better on a PAL transfer if the person doing it has done all of their homework and has stabilised the footage, cleaned up the frame, done the colour correction right, (say using something like Final cut pro that allows you to do secondaries), and gets the noise reduction/sharpening just right. You do lose more detail to noise in the PAL transfer than the NTSC, but in some scenes the overall detail can be higher on the PAL transfer, in others it isn't.
But anyway they will be different in that the PAL scene will be missing some of the picture, and will run at a different frame rate with the corresponding problem of everyone speaking as if they have had a very mild dose of Helium.

I'd prefer to watch a well done PAL transfer in a PAL country, but most standard DVD players in the states won't play a PAL disc, so if you are in NTSC land, you would probably want to watch an NTSC transfer.
If you are a 'sound' purist, then you will want an NTSC transfer also.

As for the black levels, I think there is a lot of confusion there, and having the black level elevated to grey does not necessarily 'preserve' the 'luminace range' of the laserdiscs. In fact, if there is no 'true black' in your transfer, then you are reducing the 'luminance range' as you called it.

You have to be careful with NTSC not to end up with a doble pedestal, i.e. that if your Source is IRE 7.5 for black, and you don't do your mastering right, when you stick it in a US DVD player, it will apply the uplift to 7.5 IRE again! This leaves you with very grey blacks, and a *reduced* luminance range.

I've measure the black bars on the US definitive edition, and they are (damn close to) 7.5IRE, which means they should be BLACK when played back on an American laserdisc player on an American TV set. Which also means on any transfer they should be black when played back thorugh an Amercian DVD player on an American TV set. Anyhting else means you aren't getting the full range, or a correct looking picture. So in short we will be doing it right, if it should be black, it will be black.

Post
#136761
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/136761/action/topic#136761
Time
Well, we aren't suffering from Jaggies anywhere near as much as the other transfers we have viewed, or even as much as the standard laserdisc players do.

The NTSC and PAL versions are different beasts, while the PAL version has the edge in resolution, detail is lost because of the lack of a low noise design PAL laserdisc player being available.
Also, the PAL versions are framed differently, with the PAL version cropped, so missing some picture. That means what is on screen may look better as you have extra resolution and a tighter frame, but it also means you are missing some of the picture completely , which isn't a good thing. If you have a TV with a lot of overscan, then you are really missing out bigtime.

A lot of the problems of watching the NTSC version on Laserdisc, or the current bootlegs, such as missing starfields, awful jaggies, off colours etc. aren't a problem with our transfer so far.

Resolution is a big part of the story, but if some of the detail is lost to noise, then the resolution advantage drops off. If you can process the NTSC version to bring out some of the detail, and you aren't losing detail to noise then you start to get pretty close as far as actual 'usable' resolution goes. Also, we are cleaning up every single frame, so a lot of detail that is lot to dirt and crap is restored also.

If there was an X0 equivalent that could play PAL discs, then I would say the PAL transfer would outshine the NTSC transfer, but with the current PAL players available I'm expecting the result to be different. I've looked at the 925 and 2950 PAL players (both highly regarded) and in nearly every scene for ANH I prefer the X0 output once it has been processed. I haven't looked at Jedi or ESB on PAL yet to compare. There are a couple of scenes that at the moment I prefer on the PAL transfer, but we're just taking that as a challenge to improve those scenes

I wish there was a PAL X0 as it is a hell of a lot less work though when you don't have to worry about IVTC and so on.

So , to answer the question, will the X0 version will outshine the current PAL versions because of the above factors?
We are making sure that we are getting every last drop out of each scene, and it will definately far outshine the current NTSC versions, and at this stage I'm preferring it to the PAL transfers I've scene - especially on colour, framing, look, and in most scenes (surprisingly) on detail.
Post
#134864
Topic
DVD clamshells...where to get them?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/134864/action/topic#134864
Time
If you have no money and no shame, just ask Blockbuster what day they get their DVD deliveries as you like to check out the new titles as soon as they arrive, then go round to their dumster the night before and collect about 200 cases for free.
A mate of mine does it twice a year, and supplies everyone he knows with cases. I can just picture him there, 'fight club' style jumping over the fence with the bag full of clamshells... too funny.
Post
#133348
Topic
.: The X0 Project Discussion Thread :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/133348/action/topic#133348
Time
You really oughta go check out a terranex scaler if you get the chance, it will blow your mind.

It is true tha 'all other things being equal' that a native HD transfer will outperform a DVD transfer, but all other things are rarely equal.
For instance the T2 extreme DVD (and I mean the DVD part of it, not the HD WMV version) looks better at DVD resolution that the HDTV D-Theater release of T2 because it came from a better master.

The source film print and the skill of the telecine operator and the quality of their equipment is of first importance, a well done DVD can look better than a poorly done HD transfer.

Some other cheap scaling DVD players to check out are the momitsu V880N, the Skyworth (later models only - the earlier ones were awful) which can do almost any resolution up to 1080i, and the neuneo player (which upscales to 1080P), but none of them , including the Bravo can hold a candle to a terranex, or even a lowly Iscan HD running via SDI from the player. (Although you won't be getting optimum results with that projector, especially on the space scenes due to its poor black levels.) The newer 1080P panel projectors do a great job, or of course the CRTs like the cine9 and G90 still look magnificient.

At any rate, if DVDs look awful on anyones hidef display device, the problem is with the scaling, so go get a decent scaler.

It will be interesting to see if there is a blu-ray release of the SW films now that Fox has sided with that camp.
Post
#131528
Topic
Info: PAL LBX: there's another one... a '78 UK release of a PAL LBX LD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/131528/action/topic#131528
Time
There is just no way that it is a 1978 laserdisc, the only things being produced then were the discovision discs, and they had only just barely started in production, PAL laserdiscs didn't even exist at that point - who would manufacture a PAL laserdisc for a market that simply did not exist in any form. There was no such thing as bootlegs until later in the Laserdisc lifespan - the real companies were having enough trouble producing discs that worked.
Basically no one in the general public even owned a player at that point.

My guess is that there is a copyright notice of 1978 on it - perhaps referring to the copyright date of the film print used in the transfer, but I will give you both my testicles if it is a PAL laserdisc manufactured in 1978 of ANH.
Post
#129669
Topic
Dr. M's Reinventing The Wheel Edition (PAL to NTSC+) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/129669/action/topic#129669
Time
I'd use an S-spline based system for resizing, but otherwise Lancoz is usually sharper and has more options, bilinear is fine if you don't want sharpening or are running a separate sharpen pass.
The real answer is try it on your fottage and see - different footage can have its own issues with various resizing methods - the amount of noise in the source picture can really effect things for instance.
Post
#129631
Topic
From DVD to DVD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/129631/action/topic#129631
Time
A couple of ways to do it.
If you wanted to play with "just the movie" part of a disc, grab dvdshrink (it is free) and open it up and then click on 'Open Disc'
Then once it has analysed the disc for you, click on 'reauthor' and then just grab 'title1' from under the heading 'main movie' and drag it over to the dvdstructure window on the left hand side.
Under the 'compression' tab - choose "no compression"

Then choose 'Backup' and under 'Select Backup Target' choose "hard disc folder"

Then off you go.
(You could also untick the option under 'Edit/Preferences/Output Files/ Split into 1GB chunks if you just wanted the whole movie in a single file)

Once that is done, grab virtualdubmod (it is also free) and you can open the new .vob file(s) from your hard disc directly.
You can then save it out into any format you want, or do what you like from that point onwards with the video editing software of choice.