KurganX

It’s goofy, but it’s a celebration of the victory of the characters in this film. The Special Editions have always been a mixed bag (this site wouldn’t exist if that opinion was so shockingly rare). I know, OT is itself a mixed community… of both preservation and revision efforts by fans. May that never change!

Most of us who “love” yub nub do so because of nostalgia, not because it’s some kind of objectively amazing thing. It’s kind of catchy, but if you’re not looking at it through nostalgia goggles, or as a child, sure, I guess it’s goofy.

But is the flute music created in 1997 really that much better?

I guess I’m looking at it as an overall presentation. If you were just listening to the music on its own, would you know what it was? One is in some unknown language and sounds like a party that turns into a hymn. The other sounds like some generic music that turns into a chant of some kind. Both very generic removed from their context.

Most of us think of the John Williams symphonic music when we think of Star Wars. It gives the themes of menace, of triumph, grandeur, mystery and so forth. Anything with lyrics (Lapti Nek and Yub Nub) jar from that.

But now that people love the Mandalorian which features Dub Step type music, I guess anything is fair game now, right?

I agree that the “SE” ending of ROTJ is a nice way to “end the saga” (perhaps even with the prequels in mind, at least with the 2004 insert of Naboo and the extra buildings on Coruscant that you miss if you blink), but back in 1983 there were only these three, and that’s why, for better or for worse, “we” “like” “it.”

It’s a more subtle discussion I guess than Lapti Nek vs. Jedi rocks, where one is a glorified work-out song vs. a stunningly cheesy bit of disneyfied (long before Disney actually got involved) nonsense.

The best thing about these songs is that they’re not in English (I know, I know “celebrate the love”… and an english version of Lapti Nek exists too, but if you were only watching the movie you’d never know that).

If ROTJ was something you always hated or was your least favorite, I can see wanting to change it. Maybe it should be changed to something else entirely? Has anybody tried to create a new song, maybe something more hip and with it?

For me, make mine the original, for old time’s sake.

So the credits have not changed across all these versions from 1997… ?

I don’t have Disney+, but if I were to fire it up now, I would see the 1997 Special Edition credits is what you are saying.

My friend will be glad to hear that, and I’m really happy to see this debunked. Thanks!

Good to know! I appreciate somebody else checking this with me…

Which version is that above (the lower image), btw?

If the credits really are unchanged since 1997 (even on Disney+) that is as it should be, in my mind.

This is a very interesting essay there and it reminds me of a similar conversation I’ve been having on a totally different thread wherein a somewhat vaguely defined game universe has been expanded to the point where we’re having arguments about which edition was better and where we’re supposed to go to fill in all the gaps… instead of what we used to do in the old days, which was to just make up whatever we wanted to fill them.

It makes sense why a company would milk a franchise like Star Wars for all it was worth and why fans of past material (or as a writing crutch) would dip into game material to sell more product to fans eager for more explanations and lore (not realizing it would possibly limit the appeal).

Since this is a work of the imagination, there’s nothing stopping the individual from just making it up and drawing their own conclusions.

Because now you have something like this:

Wow, great movies, everyone, excellent choice. So what did you think?

I think Han Solo, after the movies, settled down with Leia and raised a happy family. Luke starting training new Jedi and the Rebels restored the Republic.

No, I think they got divorced after their kid turned to the dark side and went back to their old lives. The Empire was too big and was never truly defeated, and so they fought it for the next several decades until an even bigger threat came along…

Well, actually… in this official encyclopedia here it says…

Actually, before you read that, let me correct you with this new updated official encyclopedia that defines that one as no longer canon…

Well actually, I am George Lucas and I always intended that the Empire and the Sith would just keep returning.

Well actually I’m Kathleen Kennedy and you sold it to me fair and square, so yes that happened but not quite like you remember it…

Well actually I’m Disney and you all do what I say, so let me think about this… probably some from over here, and a little from here and maybe a bit more over here…

I imagine playing the Star Wars RPG (the original one) and sitting down with some friends. How cool would it be to just make stuff up (as the gamemaster) without being beholden to anything other than the original films themselves? I can guarantee when it came time for someone else’s turn, even if they agreed to the premise, they would start subtly or not so subtly introducing things from the various continuities that they happened to like…

I actually bought the vintage books not too long ago (RPG, original source book, plus Rebel and Imperial source books), to get a glimpse of that “early EU” even before the Zahn novels, but haven’t actually played it yet with anyone. I also heard it was based on the Ghostbusters RPG, and that now what we used to think of the Star Wars RPG (the second one?) is now a generic sci-fi game system anybody can use for free (is that true?).

I just checked my 2011 Blu-Ray and David Prowse is credited in both the text as Darth Vader and in the audio descriptive track.

I would find it odd if he were in there and removed from any later version, as this “feud” has been going on for years.

I used to watch Return of the Jedi at least once a year, sometimes multiple times, starting in the 80’s when we taped it off TV. I took a break around the time of middle school and started up again after the Special Editions came out (after which I probably watched the complete trilogy once a year).

When I was a kid, we didn’t go to the theaters that often, but my parents would and it would be the defacto babysitting tape when I was watching my younger siblings.

I slowed down in the early 2000s and I probably have seen them the least often since Disney took over. The Last Jedi killed a lot of my enthusiasm for Star Wars in general for awhile, but not completely. I did see the ESB re-release in theaters in 2020.

I like just sitting down to a movie I know I will enjoy, rather than doing a research project where I nitpick all the changes on screen, maybe that’s odd to hear on a forum like this which was based on noticing these things (and changing them).

As for doing a marathon, I think that tends to make the experience less enjoyable rather than more, because whatever you watch at the end you are going to be really tired for, and you don’t have a chance to let it really sink in. So ROTJ is going to suffer the most in those kinds of binge sessions. I have only once ever done it where I tried to watch all Star Wars movies “in order.” At my sister’s house we started in the morning with Episode I and we had breakfast, lunch and dinner at the appropriate times. People came and went (some friends showed up only for the OT). That was a long day. If it had been done a decade later to include the sequels (and/or “Star wars stories”) I would have refused, or only showed up for part of it… that’s just too much.

I wouldn’t even sit through a LOTR marathon (better to split it up over multiple nights). Each to their own, maybe I’m not the right age anymore to do that sort of thing. 6 hours of straight watching anything is hard to do, even if it’s stuff you love.

I’d much rather watch one (or at most 2) movies a day and spread it out over a weekend (or two) or even a week. It’s tougher to get adults from different households to do anything that dedicated together (even before the pandemic). If you can though, good luck!

I’m with Nilbog in that certain movies I can catch it mid-way through and will stay till the end, even though I didn’t plan on it. Most movies (in general) I will just turn it off and resolve to see it from the beginning (and often put that off for months or even years). Not so with ROTJ, most of all of the classic films. If it were the prequels I might watch the fight scenes, and that’s probably it. Still, over the years I’ve probably seen Episode I more times than I’d care to admit even though it’s my least favorite of the George Lucas ones.

With ROTJ probably the more I see it, the more I enjoyed it, but ROTS I actually saw too much in the time between its release in theaters and the time it came out on DVD. Even though I said I enjoyed it, I had no desire to watch it for years after that time. I re-watched it again more recently on the blu-ray set from 2011 and I was amazed once again how jarring the change was from the first act to the second (I was re-watching the entire series, about one movie a week in 2018 iirc).

As cool as it would be to do a fan-edit, I think it would possibly ruin a movie for me to watch it that closely and that often in such a span of time. But maybe actual editors don’t feel that way.

When things open up again, I would love to see the classic Trilogy in theaters again, and even though I might make an exception to my “no marathons” general rule. 😉

Need some help clearing up a rumor or possible false memory…

So everyone, of course now David Prowse has passed on (R.I.P.), and many of us heard about the infamous past situation of him being “banned” from official Star Wars conventions due to beef or bridges burned between him and Lucasfilm (or George Lucas personally).

I don’t care to back go into all that, but a friend of mine alleged it had gotten so bad at one point that the man’s name was actually removed from the Star Wars end credits!

Now I know for the longest time (until 1997) that the end credits for the original Star Wars didn’t credit James Earl Jones as the “voice of Darth Vader” and instead just referred to David Prowse as playing “Lord Darth Vader,” so could this be just a confused memory?

I’m so used to watching the original (GOUT or a restored edition) my own mind may be playing tricks on me. I was looking for my 2011 Blu-Rays (which I only bought, used, because of fan edits).

But Prowse appears in the Laserdic and VHS releases, just like the theatrical Special Edition.

But both men are credited in the 1997 SE and the 2004 SE (2005 edition discs are identical) and the 2006 GOUT DVD edition as well (the included SE disc is just the 2004 edition again).

So here would be the versions to check:

• 2011 Blu-Ray of Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (the 2013 “individual movie” and “individual trilogy” Blu-Ray releases are the same as the 2011 “Saga Edition”, although the 2013 sets came with DVD editions of the 2011 cuts, for the first time on that format). This was the box set that showed Jake Lloyd walking one way with the shadow of adult Vader behind him on Tatooine. The re-release lacked the saga bonus discs and each movie had a CGI bust of Vader, Yoda or a Stormtrooper on the cover, iirc. * EDIT: Confirmed, both men are credited in this edition! *

• 2015 (?) Star Wars Digital Collection (the releases that removed the 20th Century Fox Fanfare, if memory serves). Don’t recall if these were “limited edition” and so can no longer be purchased (can they still be streamed if you bought them back then?).

• 2018 (?) Star Wars Saga, Individual Trilogies and (?) Individual movie releases on Blu-Ray, presumably the 2011 editions with the Lucasfilm logo altered and Disney branding added, but (iirc) the 20th Century fox fanfare added back to Episode IV. I believe the “Saga” set was the one that advertised “Forces of Destiny” cartoons, and had a full body picture of Vader on the cover. At this time infamously Kathleen Kennedy laughed when she was asked if they were going to tinker with the movies anymore.

• 2019 Star Wars digital streaming version on Disney+ (the infamous “Maclunkey” edition, which should be the latest and I think is the one really in question)

• 2020 “Skywalker Saga” Release (giant box set on 4K, Blu-Ray and DVD… or digital copy?). I believe these are the same 4K editions as the individual movie releases on 4K Blu-Ray. I’m told the included Blu-Rays are the same as the previous release, and the DVDs (or digital copies) are just SD editions of those Blu-Rays. This is massive set had a picture of the death star on the long box it came in. The individual movies had washed out re-arrangements vaguely resembling the original posters of each movie, with a kind of color tint to them. I barely paid attention at the time, so I don’t recall if ANH was yellow, pink or what, but I’m fairly sure ESB was blue and ROTJ was green.

The 2020 4K version should be the same “cut” as the Maclunkey edition, so I expect it wouldn’t be changed, but on the streaming service, anything is possible. We’ve heard about Disney making digital alterations seemingly on the fly to various movies, often without any kind of fanfare until spotted by subscribers.

Empire Strikes Back had a re-release in theaters in 2020, but that was the only one of the classic films re-released that I recall (and I couldn’t tell you what cut it was, though probably the modern one, since I was wearing a slightly fogged up helmet at the time).

[I don’t have Disney+ and I don’t care to subscribe, so if anyone has it and can check, I’d be curious to know if he’s mentioned in the end credits!]

So the question is… was he ever actually removed, and if he was, was he reinstated (perhaps after his death)?

I’m guessing when certain actors have been replaced, they have gotten quietly removed from the credits (Jason Wingreen as the voice of Boba Fett, Sebastian Shaw as the face of Anakin Skywalker, Clive Revill as the voice of the Emperor), but maybe not in all cases. It seems like the 1997 SE credits remained in the 2004 edition, for example.

Anyway, any help is appreciated! I can check the 2011 blu-ray but that’s about it for me.

Still alive, old friends…!

Those original audio recordings have gotten me through some tough times… I’ve listened to them on airplanes, while giving blood, seriously. Amazing stuff. The 2011 blu-ray tracks just don’t have the same charm somehow!

I hope you find people to help out, this worthy project. Unfortunately my job requires me to talk 8 hours a day so that’s usually the last thing I’d want to do. But Godspeed and MTFBWY

I also would like Zelda II: the Adventure of Link…

At one time I was actually pissed at Lucas… but I’ve long since forgiven him. I’ve even let my anger towards the leadership and spokespeople at Disney Lucasfilm subside. I just don’t care anymore. This is a fictional entertainment franchise intended to generate profit and that has never changed. I have long been able to accept that the stories evolved over time and as entertaining as many of movies are, there are certainly continuity issues that were not inevitable.

These are just some movies I liked as a kid that aren’t bad in their original form that I would watch again now and then and appreciate them for what they are, sci-fi fairy stories for modern Westerners like me. Some of the expansion material and games were fun too, and I am nostalgic about some of those. They’ll never “go away” just because they’re not canon.

I’m very grateful for communities like this that keep that spirit alive, and offer alternatives and glimpses back into the classic versions, without having to force myself (no pun intended) to try to justify or fit the new stuff all together into some kind of coherent religious worldview and really like it. To the ones who still want to do that though, God help you… (and if it produces a fine fan edit, I’ll give it a chance, no arguments here!)

I loved the Secret History of Star Wars, even if it read like a bunch of blog entries and forum posts pasted together. I loved the feeling of vindication it gave a fan who realized a lot of the hype was just that (but hadn’t done the research to be able to prove it to defensive skeptics), even though underneath it all here was a really creative and fun series of movies. I enjoyed the “Making of…” as well. I am grateful for obsessive types (of which I consider myself one) of this fandom who can share and compile and spread such information, not to destroy the fun of other fans (as they often assume about us, sadly) but to simply allow them to see through the mists of propaganda and discover the true origins of their beloved entertainment that is far more interesting than the manufactured myths. Thank you!

Yes, I would love to watch ROTJ on the big screen again, but I am against pretty much all of the changes that have been made to that (my favorite) over the years, with the exception of the cleaned up Rancor. It would be painful to experience that again I think, when I could just watch a perfect version of it at home. If there was no pandemic on, I could probably have been convinced by a group of friends to go see it for $5, even if it was a goofed up version though to keep it 100%. But I haven’t seen anything about any other showings of the classic trilogy in my area…

I skipped 3D release of Episode I. If II and III came back to theaters, I might give them a go, as they haven’t changed much over the years in comparison.

Now if it was a real film, a 35mm or (even better) a 70mm high quality print? That would be a real treat. I wouldn’t travel out of state to see it though, unless I happened to already be there for something else.

They were showing it in theaters in my area for most of the month of October (and it wasn’t a drive-in, but that’s a great idea!).

Hardly anyone was there. They were selling plastic lightsabers at the door, but I passed on that. I also didn’t order anything to eat, ate beforehand to minimize contact.

I didn’t show up on opening night but eventually worked up the courage to visit. I watched the whole thing while wearing a Boba Fett helmet (got creative with the PPE). Because of the breath fog around the edges of the transparent plastic of the visor viewing area (also, be careful on steps), it had a certain gauzy quality which was kind of attractive, and it blurred out much of the SE issues. Of course I knew there was the new Wampa there (and "alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival, and of course the sound of Jango Fett’s voice and engine from Attack of the Clones were unmistakable), and some of those snow drifts when Luke escapes looked way too blue. Otherwise I quite enjoyed it.

But I’d still rather see the original version once more on the big screen… with my own eyes. *

ESB is probably the best experience because it is the “film” least marred by in-your-face changes.

The theater I saw it in played clips from the Force Awakens and that awful “Last Jedi” before it, which only made the experience of what “real” Star Wars is like that much better, even if it was the 2019 (or 2011, I really couldn’t tell with the mask on… it could have been 2004 for all I knew).

Disney Star Wars soured me even wanting to think about Star Wars for quite some time and I hadn’t been to theaters to see anything with the title in about three years, I’m not going to lie. And nobody needs to try to refute or debate me on these points, I’m just sharing my feelings, #NoRetweets. 😉 Nothing beats the originals, even in this modified format. It was a refreshing experience after so much negativity towards the franchise and being away from this form of entertainment for awhile. Of course not everyone is so lucky, so I count myself blessed.

*Actually to be quite honest I have never seen the original version of ESB on the big screen. Only on VHS/cable, and the first time I saw it in theaters was the '97 Special Edition, and now this.

The main thing is to put that material out there, so anyone can use it in their edits… fantastic!

The Darklighter Cut (Biggs Edit) was particularly well done I thought.

Some fans filmed Prowse under the mask in a recreation of that scene a few years back, but supposedly it was deleted from the documentary itself because they were afraid of the wrath of Lucasfilm. That’s what I heard anyway…

What I don’t get, is if Prowse was “banned” from Star Wars essentially because of Lucas, since he’s no longer in charge anymore, why can’t they bring him back in? What did he do that was so unforgivable? We need Triple H to mend the fences and bring him back. As opposed to waiting until he passes away and then pretending like they were his best friend all along… reconcile before it’s too late!

I never liked the CGI Hayden Christiansen addition, and I prefer how it was originally but if you’re going to make a change, I think the idea of Prowse makes sense. But here’s another cool thing, he’s approaching a more appropriate age (if he hasn’t already) of the Anakin character in that scene, so maybe there’s another option.

And for old time’s sake, how about a version with James Earl Jones 😉 and Bob Anderson. WE ARE VADER!

Has anyone tried to merge these two movies into one? Path to Redemption, the lesser known sequel, uses different actors, but I think the biggest sore thumb for me are the altered flashbacks to the “raft on the ocean” scenes in the sequel that don’t match up to the original. I have no interest in doing a fan edit myself, but just throwing that idea out there for anyone who is so motivated.

I was kidding, guys, sorry, I thought it was obvious. 😛

The whole “re-edit the movie to how my (faulty) memory says it should have been all along” idea is intriguing for a fan edit. I would love to see an unedited video of the Rough Cut, even if it looks and sounds terrible and has lots of “scene missing” cards and stock footage or production stills and animatics from the storyboards. I may not agree with every editor’s choices, but I’m not going to say he shouldn’t make it if he really wants to… (even if it’s based on a movie I hated and think can’t be saved, which is not this movie). I would love to see a super cut of all the missing and alternate or deleted footage put back in, like a Star Wars motion scrapbook… not just like Deleted Magic but like a movie you can watch beginning to end.

Still, didn’t Adywan pump up the volume on the “twin setting suns” scene because that’s how he “always remembered it”? Nobody bashed him for that…

Maybe Yoda could say “my child” at one point and Luke, as he’s watching the Pyre, could whisper “Asoka…”

That would provide some links to the new legends or whatever they are calling this stuff now. I mean, if all ideas are on the table… right?

I liked how Grindhouse did it, personally.

BrightestDayFan2814 said:

Hopefully Jabba Scene Pre-Special Edition Deleted Scene Will Include For Deleted Scenes For Skywalker Saga Box Set

Sadly, I doubt that. Isn’t the new set just a repackaging of the previously released Disney Blu-Rays which were just the 2011 editions with the Disney logos slapped on? Even if it’s going to be the “4K” stuff from Disney+ it’s that’s just the 2011 editions with some further and inconsistently altered color timing/background matte plates and the infamous “macklunky” sound modification (at least we get the 20th century fox fanfares back again)? If there were any “new” deleted scenes, we would have heard about them by now, surely?

Great stuff! MTFBWY!!!

Glad it was just a case of you being more active on another forum… 😉

This thread: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope-The-Darklighter-Cut/id/62806 got my hopes up. Some great clips there. I guess everybody but a few fall victim to “real life.” Pity…

It sounds like he was just sharing it with a few friends to get feedback. Did they tell him it sucked and he quit? Hope not!

I’m very pleased with the results so far. How has it been going? I always wanted to have a cut of the movie with these old school deleted scenes put back in where they originally would have belonged, even if they’re not super clean.

Now then, who has a complete version of the Declan Mulholland Jabba scene to go with it? Every version of it I’ve seen has those tv station borders/logos burned in…

Seriously though, Grindhouse Star Wars was magic for me, because of the sheer number of deleted scenes that were packed in there, but obviously it was turned into a different story entirely. So a project like this still has serious value. Hope it isn’t dead!

So the latest versions are 720p right? I see somebody is selling them online.

DougieP said:

Yes to all of this. Very deflated by the ST and probably gonna skip 9. 6 was a good ending.

Probably just going to stick with Dave Filonis work from now on. He seems to get it. The GOT guys might make something good too.

I never gave GOT a chance, partly because I needlessly ignore any popular hyped tv series (Lost, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Walking Dead), but also because it struck me as a low-rent LOTR that was trying way too hard to be edgy and iconoclastic (there’s a reason LOTR is still beloved, and it’s not because its fans are gullible, racist or stupid). People love it though… I personally can’t wait until its over and I can stop hearing about it. 😉 Being a hard-core jaded cynical curmudgeon ain’t easy!

That they will keep making Star Wars movies forever is understandable. Who can say “no” to all of that money? But I’d rather it die than keep going down the drain like this (and foster a toxic divided fandom as well). To me the stories of these movies would have been better as video games or comics than as legit “canon” installment in the film saga. They’re just the sort of thing you’d expect as a convenient excuse to insert the player into the action and do stuff within the universe that you wanted.