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KurganX

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8-Aug-2017
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3-Mar-2021
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Post
#1414374
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

We don’t know because its never shown, but Luke flies a Skyhopper, some kind of stunt-ship and “bulls-eyes womprats… no bigger than two meters.” In the later lore its explained this is some kind of suborbital craft and his flying around beggar’s canyon is pretty impressive, much more than “pod-racing” that’s for sure. Blowing up targets that don’t shoot back is probably the extent of his training. He grabs a rifle pretty fast when going to look at Tusken raiders, but gets ambushed before he attempts to get a shot off.

Luke was interested in joining the academy. For all we know he might have used simulators or taken lessons with Biggs, but that’s speculative. Episode I dilutes that in our minds by saying “not such a bad pilot” could refer to anything, including flying a glorified hovercraft soap box derby on the surface (albeit a really dangerous one).

In the novels (released before the movies, and based upon early script drafts), Luke gets more training than we see onscreen, but not much more. Years pass between episodes, which is not the case with the sequel trilogy.

Sure, Rey could learn about ships (she certainly has an interest, with her daydreams) by salvaging parts, but it seems even more of a stretch that she’s so good, than Luke. So whatever one says about the plausibility of Luke or Anakin, it goes double or triple for Rey.

In the end, the movies leave us with the distinct impression that Rey’s abilities are magical, from her learning to knowledge, even to her skill, not just force potential.

Had we always “known” that proficiency was passed on simply by touching objects or being related to someone, it would be a lot easier for fans to swallow, regardless of the comparative qualities of the movies they appear in.

By the time of Rise of Skywalker, it appears that video game/RPG rules are in place. Once you reach this particular character level, you unlock X and Y powers. Get stronger and you just know them, because you have enough experience points. In universe I guess the Force “wants” you to have this power or “knows” you need it and so you suddenly have it. Yet we see Rey getting new powers but not Kylo (I guess you could say he “learns” force heal after Rey dies after she “healed” him… I guess giving him her powers at that point, but they’re a dyad so maybe they always had the power in them, they just had to believe in themselves).

Was Anakin “good with machines” because of the Force, or was he just a prodigy, or was it just taught to him in his life as a slave?

In Force Awakens, Rey gets her powers boosted by Luke’s lightsaber (which calls to her and touching it gives her memories and even skill). Touching Kylo Ren’s mind gives her access to all of his powers, apparently. Maybe she gets knowledge of how to use the Falcon (never implied in the movie but I’m running with it) by touching it.

It’s not just Rey and Finn who are OP, look at Poe Dameron. Or the Emperor in Rise of Skywalker. So its an overall issue, not just the one character. Kylo Ren goes back and forth between being embarrassingly bad to OP. I guess something about the “force dyad” struggling for control between them? Rey gets stronger as he gets weaker and so on? The Sequel Trilogy seems to be doing its own thing (much like the Prequels did their own thing). It’s just the passage of time and different creative minds behind it (while mimicking the style of the earlier films) that makes it jarring to so many, even leaving aside whether you liked the movies themselves.

IF you start from the standpoint that all Star Wars is “canon” and “has to fit together” then I guess you’ll always accept it and reinterpret the old stuff in light of the new. So maybe Luke touching the lightsaber in Ben’s hut gave him Anakin’s skill too, and maybe getting into an X-Wing gave him the skills of the previous pilot who used it (Anakin’s pod was rebuilt from used parts, according to the novelization). See? And if you have a problem just say “a wizard did it” I mean “It was the Will of the Force.” 😉

Not saying I agree with it, just that’s how you could do it. I am of the mind that Disney Star Wars just isn’t canon. It’s like infinites for me.

Whatever flaws or conveniences were true of the Originals and got worse in the Prequels have reached an even greater height in the new stuff, and that’s no surprise because the new ones are consciously trying to copy (rather than expand or improve) upon the earlier ones, with, if you ask cynical, jaded (but I reject terms like “toxic” or “hater”) fans like me, rather mixed results.

Post
#1414370
Topic
Idea & Info Wanted: Star Trek VI: The Roddenberry cut?
Time

Interesting stuff, and I’ve also read that Season 1 of TNG is the “most Roddenberry” of all of TNG. He had died by the time of the fifth season (which is dedicated to him) but its also been said that his influence over the writing of the series had ended by the end of the third season. So Season 1 was his, season 2 a little less so and by season 3 others were doing it (using his foundation of course).

I could agree that the Picard we see in the TNG movies appears to be going through a mid-life crisis (some changes in his character one could attribute to his assimilation by the Borg, an idea I’m not sure G-Rod had anything to do with) and a lot of things changed… turning the cerebral character drama focused on diplomacy and ethical debates about science turned basically into a series of action flicks, remakes of old stories, and time travel shenanigans.

The crew saving JFK sounds silly, but would have been interesting to see. Let me guess, they’re going to say that in the real timeline Kennedy always survived? Because otherwise that would seem to go against everything they ever said or did about Time Travel… which is they don’t change things, only learn from it, or fix changes made by others (even though TNG eventually establishes that “many worlds” hypothesis as canon).

Too bad though. So I guess delete “guess who’s coming to dinner” “I’ve always hated Kligons…” “the smell / only the advanced models can talk” and the already cut “would you let your daughter marry one?” lines. But making Starfleet less military would require a lot of work, basically a reshoot. In-universe it makes a bit of sense that Starfleet starts out more like explorers, a kind of scientific merchant marine with defensive weapons or golden age of the United Nations–following the then future history of the Eugenics Wars/WWIII and united earth peace, but is forced to militarize because of the Romulans and Klingon aggression in the Kirk era, and then again in the Picard era (after a period of relative peace and stability) because of the Borg (Dominion in DS9).

Post
#1408532
Topic
Popularity of the Original Trilogy enhanced by Prequels?
Time

I think if a person watched the Prequels and hated them, I would say “who knows, there is something better in the Star Wars universe you might enjoy” and encourage them to give the OT a chance. If they loved them, I’d say, go see the originals, but keep in mind these were made a decade earlier and don’t match up perfectly.

Many fans (myself included at one time) put Star Wars (and to an extent, George Lucas) up on a pedestal. This means we hold it to an unrealistically high standard OR we treat it in a cultish manner that prevents us from seeing anything wrong with it, and make us defensive towards those who don’t share our zeal or obsession. I don’t hate the Prequels, it’s really just that I was disappointed with Episode I. It was a bit of an overload back then too… too much hype, and I backed off a bit from the franchise then, retreating into the stuff I liked. Something similar happened with Disney star wars, but by then I wasn’t as invested to begin with so it wasn’t so shocking. I became jaded, cynical, and this is probably boring you, so you should skip to the next post. OR, continue on… I warned you. 😉

For some people, they gave up on Star Wars because of the prequels. Others went back to the OT. A few people grew up with the Prequels and didn’t ever care to get invested in the originals. It never fails that when a new installment of something this popular comes out, it will cause “divisions” in the “fandom” (it’s talked about as if it’s a nation, religion or family, when the only thing that unites “Star Wars fans” is some generic love of a brand).

I recall when Force Awakens came out, the #1 argument from those who overwhelmingly supported it was “at least it wasn’t the prequels” or “star wars is back” or something similar. That opinion soured for a lot of folks with the disappointment of the next two movies, but for a time it seems like dislike of the prequels was on full display.

I don’t begrudge fans their opinion. Yes, at one time (in the 90’s) I was “shocked” to learn that my favorite piece of Star Wars, ROTJ, was regarded by many as the “worst” thing in the franchise (other than the Holiday Special, I guess). All of the people I knew, I guess were fans my own age, so they all disagreed, but everything I read was that ESB was the best, and ROTJ was the worst. Oh well. I don’t begrudge those people their opinion. I remember spending time on forums where if you hated the Prequels, you were considered “not a true fan” and even a “bad person,” some kind of bandwagon “hater” or “snob” who didn’t “get it.” People would defend the prequels by pointing out flaws in the OT, and say it was still George Lucas’ vision so take it or leave it. It was a weird time. I had problems with the prequels, mainly episode I, but I didn’t hate them. Then again I did hate the last jedi and while I see just how goofy Rise of skywalker was, and didn’t consider force awakens anything special, I didn’t hate solo (I just didn’t bother to think of it as “canon” in any way shape or form) and while Rogue One was fine, it came across as a really desperate attempt at fanservice. I only bring that up because I feel like a lot of the same arguments and feelings got brought up with that trilogy/series run as what happened with the prequels. I don’t think it’s fair to just say new stuff always will cause a conflict between fans who like the new stuff better than the old, or because people hate change or others feel obligated to like everything to be considered a true fan. Tastes are different. I didn’t hate the Mandalorian or Rogue One or Solo (even though it wasn’t anything really special) so I’ll defend myself against those who would say I hate stuff just because it’s new or different from what I previously accepted. I didn’t start liking the prequels recently, I always did, but I agreed with those who heavily criticized them (again, especially Episode I). If you disagree with me, I don’t judge you a lesser fan, by no means. If you’re the type of person who wants to nitpick, who is going to be disappointed if the episodes don’t all gel together perfectly, I would not want to set you up for failure though.

And someone is going to read this now and say I’m a hater, I’m a cynical jaded fan who hates everything, who has standards that are too high, who has nostalgia goggles on, who can’t tolerate people enjoying themselves. Bollocks I say. Far from it, I’m perfectly willing to admit other people have different tastes and that’s not better or worse, just different. I thought the Mandalorian was fine. It wasn’t bad. Not revelatory, and I can nitpick it if I want to, but to me Episode II and III were fine.

Does the Prequel Trilogy enhance the original star wars? If you mean does it make you want to go see the originals again… sure, I guess they do that. They are based around stuff that is said in the background of the classic trilogy. Basically all the snippets that Obi-Wan and Yoda say about the past, are what we see on screen. The trouble is that back then it was mysterious, so we used our imaginations and what we got may not have measured up. And the other thing is that historically speaking, the Prequels were mainly a new creation of the late 90’s and early 2000’s, they weren’t what George Lucas “always intended” (and that’s fine, I have long ago rejected the hype that he had a perfect 12 part saga all planned out in his head… the man clearly is just a mortal filmmaker who had some cool ideas and collaborated to create some really awesome stuff, even if it’s not godly perfection).

I try NOT to hold the Prequels in my mind when I’m watching the OT. If I do, I end up nitpicking stuff and it becomes less enjoyable and more laughable. “Obi-wan, you lying drunk!” “Chewbacca, you jerk!” etc. No, I just ignore the Prequels except when I’m watching the prequels or some material based upon them (like the Mandalorian). But I can’t avoid thinking about the OT when watching the Prequels, to a certain degree, so it’s tough.

As a fan of another franchise, Highlander, which has massive continuity issues from one installment to the next, I have learned to check a lot of that nitpicky-ness at the door and just trying to enjoy it for what it is. I don’t do major movie marathons and have a clipboard in front of me. It’s fun to do the nitpicky thing, but I got most of that out of my system when the movies were still in theaters. Again, I don’t begrudge someone who wants to do that.

For sheer entertainment value, I consider Episode II up there next to Empire Strikes Back. It may be because I didn’t see ESB in theaters originally… I wasn’t a teenager when it came out and it wasn’t my favorite growing up. I appreciate it now more than I ever did, but I genuinely enjoyed myself seeing Episode II (far more than Episode I), and I acknowledge that as far as a lot of fans are concerned, it is the worst of the prequels! And for me Episode III was really the only one that “needed” to be made, and yes it could have been better, but it was pretty good. I watched it TOO much in 2005-2006, so the point where I hadn’t seen it for years (Until recently when I did a week long marathon of the Lucas movies, after seeing Rise of Skywalker).

Again I think if all a person knew was the Prequel Trilogy, I would recommend they give the OT a try, because I think overall its better, and better or worse, it was what started it all, but I think they hold up today, regardless of technological advances or cultural changes.

I love that fan editing exists, everybody has a different idea of how to improve these movies. I appreciate that effort, and I also appreciate the films for what they are, warts and all. To a degree I like laughing at bad movies too, but despite some of the inherent hokiness (sp?) of Star Wars in general (I love Star Wars, again, don’t get me wrong), I expect it to be good, and so it’s jarring when it doesn’t live up to the standard I set for it. Still, the Prequels really weren’t bad, even if a lot of the CGI looks dated now. And as time goes on, do worse movies soften my attitude to previous installments? There is probably some truth to that as well.

Post
#1408500
Topic
In Defense of the Ewoks
Time

I can see why many viewers hated the ewoks. They were cute, they were slapstick, and they were transparently there to sell merch.

But let’s face it, that has been part of Star Wars from the beginning… what do you think those Jawas were doing? Or Yoda? Or the ughnaughts on cloud city playing keep away with Chewbacca? Even beepy R2D2 is meant to appeal to that “oh cute I want that toy” mentality. There have always been “little, sorta cute” characters in Star Wars, and all of it is designed to sell merch, not just these guys. They’re just the most overtly marketed to kids. Whether you’re selling a model X-Wing, a “replica” lightsaber, or a fluffy ewok doll, it’s the same thing.

So some of the “hate” for the Ewoks is hypocritical, but at the same time, you can look at it like the Jar Jar effect. In Episode I, Jar Jar Binks is a walking joke. He’s a slapstick cartoon character like Roger Rabbit and most of the people around some just kind of take it in stride. In ROTJ, Wicket, who is portrayed as kind of a “kid” Ewok (even though they’re all small) is the slapstick one. Just as not all of the Gungans were like Jar Jar (even if Boss Nass made goofy spit noises for some reason), not all the Ewoks were wicket, knocking himself out with rocks. Consider the Mandalorian. From the way some people tell it, half the success of that show is due to adult female viewers fawning over the cuteness of “baby Yoda” (and the other half seems to be “had nothing to do with the disney sequel trilogy.”)

Humor has always been a part of Star Wars, but people tend to forget. Some of it may be because if you started out watching Star Wars as a kid, say, age 6-7, you were 12 or 13 by the time of ROTJ. Maybe you felt silly watching muppets and fuzzy characters dancing around. I remember not wanting to watch “Sesame Street” at that age because it felt babyish, and so that may be a factor. Today there are adult female viewers who will be like “aww, those cute porgs!” so maybe there are different views. I can see not liking them because they seem like a babyish product placement more than a cool plot device.

To me I can see why people hate the Ewoks, and they can be legit. The Imperial forces have been steadily diminished in threat, to the point where they are like the Nazis in Hogan’s Heroes more than the Nazis of the actual war. The less of a threat, the lower the stakes for our heroes. Some have analyzed the battle footage of Endor closely and chalked it up mostly to Imperial incompetence. They’ve come up with elaborate excuses for why it’s realistic or not that crazy for the Ewoks to do well in the battle. The ewoks took massive casualties. They may have been fighting the “best troops” but the Emperor was overconfident… he was distracted with the Skywalker drama and not “battle meditating” his forces… and by this point in the war, his “best troops” of those that were left weren’t all that great… most of the troops were on the other side of the forest moon (they came in the back door remember), the Ewoks were fighting for their “golden god” and the Imperials were unprepared, they were just thinking they were going to arrest the group of rebels and that was that, etc. And all those traps they had built to stop the Walkers, well those were needed as explained in the Ewok Adventure specials (which came out AFTER ROTJ) that they had giant monsters roaming around Endor so those were pre-existing technology for survival. Great stuff. A casual viewer will be like “whoa, these guys suck… beaten by teddy bears, let me guess it was the will of the force right? Suuure.”

The idea of it being Wookiees beating the Empire, or acknowledging that in real life superior forces have lost due to incompetence and bad luck, doesn’t change the fact that some stone age teddy bears did beat the Empire, at least with the help of a handful of main characters (with ever-present character shields). Sure, it’s impressive that they beat the Empire, but MAYBE by this point, just about anybody could… (not even getting into the typical EU narrative, which is that it took another 30 years for them to beat the Empire for real, oops just kidding and then the “first order” took over where they left off).

I didn’t hate the Ewoks as much as some people did, maybe because I was a kid when ROTJ came out, and I didn’t hang out with superfans (until high school), and for me that was just the norm of Star Wars. I didn’t play pretend to be the Ewoks. I wanted to be Luke Skywalker, or Lando, or Darth Vader. I didn’t find C3PO annoying (but I didn’t really watch Empire Strikes Back as much as the others, and within a few years I found Yoda annoying, though much later I found him funny). Our tastes change as we mature. I think its clear what the Ewoks were there for, and they’re not perfect, but they’re just as much a part of the original franchise now as Jawas or Yoda. I think as a kid I didn’t notice anything amiss. Later on I disliked Wickit, but now I see him as just a “junior ewok” and not really that big a deal. If this were being made today and I were somehow an advisor for the filmmakers I might advise against making them that transparently a toy ad for little kids, but then again if it was really going to be that profitable, how could they say no?

And really, you can say the Ewoks were terrible and then say “but compared to what was to come later… they weren’t that bad!” The creature design is certainly more interesting than just having a bunch of people with their skin painted in primary colors with a handful of latex slapped on their foreheads. For a much more kidified version of an Ewok battle, check out “Battle for Endor” Ewok adventure special (it’s the right thing to do).

Post
#1408496
Topic
How big was Star Wars in the 70s 80s and 90s
Time

I’m sure it varies by country and by region, state, age group, etc. For me, for a time, Star Wars was something magical, something that was familiar, comfortable, that was appealing and hard to refuse. Now it seems more like a relic of the past, a cool piece of history wrapped up in nostalgia. My views may be just my own, but I can articulate my perception.

I was a baby in the 70’s. In the 80’s, Star Wars was a blockbuster franchise (I was 5 when ROTJ came out), and if you were a kid, it was all about the toys and make-believe. It was awesome. By 1985, I remember seeing the toys in the stores and walking right by, without the interest I once had. Yes, ROTJ was back in theaters that year, but we didn’t go see it (if I had my way, we would have, but we taped it off TV the first chance we got). So I think Star Wars wasn’t that big for me or other kids I knew by the late 80’s. By high school I discovered the Zahn books existed, and a couple of friends (who were nerdy super fans) got me interested in it again. The general view seemed to be that these were some old cheesy movies made for kids… until the special editions came out, then people caught the nostalgia bug. “I remember these movies when I was a kid!” teenagers were saying. Everybody acknowledges that Star Wars was a popular franchise in its time, regardless of whether they personally cared for it. It has had more lasting power in peoples imaginations than say, Indiana Jones, or American Graffiti (or even E.T.), and it has almost had the dedicated following of Star Trek (I feel like Trek fans have had to put up with mixed quality product for a lot longer, forcing them to weather a lot of storms and struggle as fans perceived as defending a shoddy franchise). I should pause there, because Trek has always been seen as a cult thing (since the original series was cancelled after only three seasons and stayed alive only on fan goodwill for some time). Star Wars kind of blows everything up, and then goes away, repeat.
I credit this popularity with the movies. I doubt many people became Star Wars fans because of a novel or a comic book, those things cater to people who already are into the franchise.

That hype ramped up to the release of Episode I and then I remember a lot of people kind of losing interest, thinking it kind of sucked, and collecting wasn’t what it used to be, etc. My superfan friends and I kept up with it, but the rest of the public seems to have lost interest once a movie left theaters. I stayed a fan through the video games (much less the EU of the 2000s, I had lost interest in most of the EU by the late 90s). Then it seemed like people got interested again with the Force Awakens, and while the hype continued through the Disney movies, I soured a lot on Star Wars in general. I had been losing interest in the EU by the late 90s and while I was hoping for it to reset, I didn’t quite like what we got.

This negative attitude of mine can be exaggerated, I really don’t hate Star Wars, I just don’t have the superfan (fanboy) attitude that some of my friends had, where they would find the good in every product, any excuse to justify buying it and pretending to like it. I wasn’t ashamed to be a fan, but I wanted to clarify to people that I didn’t like “all of it.” The sad part is the poor quality (IMHO) of some of the Star Wars product turned me off from the franchise for awhile. I had to cleanse my pallet by watching the despecialized editions again. I am far more interested in going back to some of the early EU and the old games, than checking out the latest thing that says “Star Wars” on it.

As for the people I know, they seem to be mostly casual fans “Oh I remember that was fun when I was a kid” who are curious and will check out a new movie, but generally won’t stick around for a trilogy unless they are dragged to it. Contradictions in the lore don’t bother them because they don’t pay that close attention or don’t really remember it very well. The superfans I know have been tested, most of them are still fans, but they have a harder time defending the new stuff. I can’t speak for everyone. I know that there are forums that are packed with people, there are conventions full of people (well there were, before the pandemic). To me, in my life, Star Wars seems to have been a fad that comes and goes. That doesn’t diminish the importance to film, or the merchandising empire it built, or my personal love of it.

Star Wars is part of the culture, but that doesn’t mean everybody has seen the movies and likes them. But they know what you are referencing when you use a catch phrase, just like if you pulled something from Star Trek or WWF, across multiple generations.

I never stopped liking Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, or the Jedi Knight video games. I just no longer feel obligated to “stick up for” heavily criticized new episodes. I thought the Mandalorian was okay. I still haven’t finished the second season of Clone Wars since it began. I’ve never seen rebels. I get more excited about fan edits than about new official releases. Still, if one day we got the original 1977 Star Wars (Or the original Empire or Jedi) on blu-ray in decent quality, I’d buy it, for more than a dollar. MTFBWY

Post
#1407871
Topic
Harmy's STAR WARS Despecialized Edition HD - V2.7 - MKV (Released)
Time

DylanValenti said:

Honestly I don’t even care if we get an official release anymore. These projects almost mean more than that anyways. And I honestly think things like 4K77 and 83 (and despecialized ofc) look better than the official 4K Blu-Ray releases lol.

I’m with you on that. This trilogy of Despecialized HD editions were like the holy grail I was waiting for as a classic fan. Still, if Lucasfilm (or whomever, at some future point) were to release essentially the same thing, officially, on physical media, I would do them the honor of a new purchase. Until then, I’m satisfied with this. MTFBWY

Post
#1407868
Topic
Idea & Info Wanted: Star Trek VI: The Roddenberry cut?
Time

This would seem to be something that fits here… I have read that Rene Roddenberry (who unfortunately died a few days after screening the film) disliked many parts of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, and that he sent an extensive “list of cuts” to the filmmakers, who rejected his ideas (Roddenberry’s creative control over the property had diminished over the years, to the point of him being little more than an advisor). From what I gather, it mainly had to do with the harsher anti-Klingon sentiments expressed by starfleet characters in the movie, but that would still only account for a couple of scenes at most.

While I actually like this movie (GR may have invented Star Trek but like the creator of a certain other franchise, all of his ideas weren’t golden and he benefited from editors and collaboration), and prefer an extended cut than an abbreviated one, I wonder if a list of these “cuts” exist, to the point where a fan editor could craft an edition of the film that would have been more “in line” with his vision for it?

Any info is appreciated…

Post
#1407725
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - ** PRODUCTION HAS NOW RESTARTED **
Time

Even though Life Day seems to be a reference to Christmas (with the wrapped gifts and a metaphorical “tree of life”), it aired around Thanksgiving, so maybe that is really “life day.”

Ah the ever changing “Star wars canon.” If adywan isn’t incorporating Rogue One into his edits, is he going to incorporate The Mandalorian?

I don’t care either way, just curious…

Post
#1407717
Topic
Rumor: David Prowse Snubbed in Star Wars Credits?
Time

Very helpful. I hadn’t realized that James Earl Jones is credited as the voice of Darth Vader (at least as of '97) in ANH and ROTJ but NOT in ESB! (referencing my 2011 Blu-Rays). Nobody is credited as the voice of Boba Fett in ESB either. I normally stop paying attention to the credits themselves and just listen to the music, it turns out…

Again, glad to know that the rumor I heard, was absolutely false.

Post
#1407337
Topic
Can we get some love for Yub Nub?
Time

It’s goofy, but it’s a celebration of the victory of the characters in this film. The Special Editions have always been a mixed bag (this site wouldn’t exist if that opinion was so shockingly rare). I know, OT is itself a mixed community… of both preservation and revision efforts by fans. May that never change!

Most of us who “love” yub nub do so because of nostalgia, not because it’s some kind of objectively amazing thing. It’s kind of catchy, but if you’re not looking at it through nostalgia goggles, or as a child, sure, I guess it’s goofy.

But is the flute music created in 1997 really that much better?

I guess I’m looking at it as an overall presentation. If you were just listening to the music on its own, would you know what it was? One is in some unknown language and sounds like a party that turns into a hymn. The other sounds like some generic music that turns into a chant of some kind. Both very generic removed from their context.

Most of us think of the John Williams symphonic music when we think of Star Wars. It gives the themes of menace, of triumph, grandeur, mystery and so forth. Anything with lyrics (Lapti Nek and Yub Nub) jar from that.

But now that people love the Mandalorian which features Dub Step type music, I guess anything is fair game now, right?

I agree that the “SE” ending of ROTJ is a nice way to “end the saga” (perhaps even with the prequels in mind, at least with the 2004 insert of Naboo and the extra buildings on Coruscant that you miss if you blink), but back in 1983 there were only these three, and that’s why, for better or for worse, “we” “like” “it.”

It’s a more subtle discussion I guess than Lapti Nek vs. Jedi rocks, where one is a glorified work-out song vs. a stunningly cheesy bit of disneyfied (long before Disney actually got involved) nonsense.

The best thing about these songs is that they’re not in English (I know, I know “celebrate the love”… and an english version of Lapti Nek exists too, but if you were only watching the movie you’d never know that).

If ROTJ was something you always hated or was your least favorite, I can see wanting to change it. Maybe it should be changed to something else entirely? Has anybody tried to create a new song, maybe something more hip and with it?

For me, make mine the original, for old time’s sake.

Post
#1405248
Topic
Star Wars has felt &quot;off&quot; to me since 1980 (essay)
Time

This is a very interesting essay there and it reminds me of a similar conversation I’ve been having on a totally different thread wherein a somewhat vaguely defined game universe has been expanded to the point where we’re having arguments about which edition was better and where we’re supposed to go to fill in all the gaps… instead of what we used to do in the old days, which was to just make up whatever we wanted to fill them.

It makes sense why a company would milk a franchise like Star Wars for all it was worth and why fans of past material (or as a writing crutch) would dip into game material to sell more product to fans eager for more explanations and lore (not realizing it would possibly limit the appeal).

Since this is a work of the imagination, there’s nothing stopping the individual from just making it up and drawing their own conclusions.

Because now you have something like this:

Wow, great movies, everyone, excellent choice. So what did you think?

I think Han Solo, after the movies, settled down with Leia and raised a happy family. Luke starting training new Jedi and the Rebels restored the Republic.

No, I think they got divorced after their kid turned to the dark side and went back to their old lives. The Empire was too big and was never truly defeated, and so they fought it for the next several decades until an even bigger threat came along…

Well, actually… in this official encyclopedia here it says…

Actually, before you read that, let me correct you with this new updated official encyclopedia that defines that one as no longer canon…

Well actually, I am George Lucas and I always intended that the Empire and the Sith would just keep returning.

Well actually I’m Kathleen Kennedy and you sold it to me fair and square, so yes that happened but not quite like you remember it…

Well actually I’m Disney and you all do what I say, so let me think about this… probably some from over here, and a little from here and maybe a bit more over here…

I imagine playing the Star Wars RPG (the original one) and sitting down with some friends. How cool would it be to just make stuff up (as the gamemaster) without being beholden to anything other than the original films themselves? I can guarantee when it came time for someone else’s turn, even if they agreed to the premise, they would start subtly or not so subtly introducing things from the various continuities that they happened to like…

I actually bought the vintage books not too long ago (RPG, original source book, plus Rebel and Imperial source books), to get a glimpse of that “early EU” even before the Zahn novels, but haven’t actually played it yet with anyone. I also heard it was based on the Ghostbusters RPG, and that now what we used to think of the Star Wars RPG (the second one?) is now a generic sci-fi game system anybody can use for free (is that true?).

Post
#1405230
Topic
How often do you watch the Original Trilogy?
Time

I used to watch Return of the Jedi at least once a year, sometimes multiple times, starting in the 80’s when we taped it off TV. I took a break around the time of middle school and started up again after the Special Editions came out (after which I probably watched the complete trilogy once a year).

When I was a kid, we didn’t go to the theaters that often, but my parents would and it would be the defacto babysitting tape when I was watching my younger siblings.

I slowed down in the early 2000s and I probably have seen them the least often since Disney took over. The Last Jedi killed a lot of my enthusiasm for Star Wars in general for awhile, but not completely. I did see the ESB re-release in theaters in 2020.

I like just sitting down to a movie I know I will enjoy, rather than doing a research project where I nitpick all the changes on screen, maybe that’s odd to hear on a forum like this which was based on noticing these things (and changing them).

As for doing a marathon, I think that tends to make the experience less enjoyable rather than more, because whatever you watch at the end you are going to be really tired for, and you don’t have a chance to let it really sink in. So ROTJ is going to suffer the most in those kinds of binge sessions. I have only once ever done it where I tried to watch all Star Wars movies “in order.” At my sister’s house we started in the morning with Episode I and we had breakfast, lunch and dinner at the appropriate times. People came and went (some friends showed up only for the OT). That was a long day. If it had been done a decade later to include the sequels (and/or “Star wars stories”) I would have refused, or only showed up for part of it… that’s just too much.

I wouldn’t even sit through a LOTR marathon (better to split it up over multiple nights). Each to their own, maybe I’m not the right age anymore to do that sort of thing. 6 hours of straight watching anything is hard to do, even if it’s stuff you love.

I’d much rather watch one (or at most 2) movies a day and spread it out over a weekend (or two) or even a week. It’s tougher to get adults from different households to do anything that dedicated together (even before the pandemic). If you can though, good luck!

I’m with Nilbog in that certain movies I can catch it mid-way through and will stay till the end, even though I didn’t plan on it. Most movies (in general) I will just turn it off and resolve to see it from the beginning (and often put that off for months or even years). Not so with ROTJ, most of all of the classic films. If it were the prequels I might watch the fight scenes, and that’s probably it. Still, over the years I’ve probably seen Episode I more times than I’d care to admit even though it’s my least favorite of the George Lucas ones.

With ROTJ probably the more I see it, the more I enjoyed it, but ROTS I actually saw too much in the time between its release in theaters and the time it came out on DVD. Even though I said I enjoyed it, I had no desire to watch it for years after that time. I re-watched it again more recently on the blu-ray set from 2011 and I was amazed once again how jarring the change was from the first act to the second (I was re-watching the entire series, about one movie a week in 2018 iirc).

As cool as it would be to do a fan-edit, I think it would possibly ruin a movie for me to watch it that closely and that often in such a span of time. But maybe actual editors don’t feel that way.

When things open up again, I would love to see the classic Trilogy in theaters again, and even though I might make an exception to my “no marathons” general rule. 😉

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#1405191
Topic
Rumor: David Prowse Snubbed in Star Wars Credits?
Time

Need some help clearing up a rumor or possible false memory…

So everyone, of course now David Prowse has passed on (R.I.P.), and many of us heard about the infamous past situation of him being “banned” from official Star Wars conventions due to beef or bridges burned between him and Lucasfilm (or George Lucas personally).

I don’t care to back go into all that, but a friend of mine alleged it had gotten so bad at one point that the man’s name was actually removed from the Star Wars end credits!

Now I know for the longest time (until 1997) that the end credits for the original Star Wars didn’t credit James Earl Jones as the “voice of Darth Vader” and instead just referred to David Prowse as playing “Lord Darth Vader,” so could this be just a confused memory?

I’m so used to watching the original (GOUT or a restored edition) my own mind may be playing tricks on me. I was looking for my 2011 Blu-Rays (which I only bought, used, because of fan edits).

But Prowse appears in the Laserdic and VHS releases, just like the theatrical Special Edition.

But both men are credited in the 1997 SE and the 2004 SE (2005 edition discs are identical) and the 2006 GOUT DVD edition as well (the included SE disc is just the 2004 edition again).

So here would be the versions to check:

  • 2011 Blu-Ray of Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (the 2013 “individual movie” and “individual trilogy” Blu-Ray releases are the same as the 2011 “Saga Edition”, although the 2013 sets came with DVD editions of the 2011 cuts, for the first time on that format). This was the box set that showed Jake Lloyd walking one way with the shadow of adult Vader behind him on Tatooine. The re-release lacked the saga bonus discs and each movie had a CGI bust of Vader, Yoda or a Stormtrooper on the cover, iirc. * EDIT: Confirmed, both men are credited in this edition! *

  • 2015 (?) Star Wars Digital Collection (the releases that removed the 20th Century Fox Fanfare, if memory serves). Don’t recall if these were “limited edition” and so can no longer be purchased (can they still be streamed if you bought them back then?).

  • 2018 (?) Star Wars Saga, Individual Trilogies and (?) Individual movie releases on Blu-Ray, presumably the 2011 editions with the Lucasfilm logo altered and Disney branding added, but (iirc) the 20th Century fox fanfare added back to Episode IV. I believe the “Saga” set was the one that advertised “Forces of Destiny” cartoons, and had a full body picture of Vader on the cover. At this time infamously Kathleen Kennedy laughed when she was asked if they were going to tinker with the movies anymore.

  • 2019 Star Wars digital streaming version on Disney+ (the infamous “Maclunkey” edition, which should be the latest and I think is the one really in question)

  • 2020 “Skywalker Saga” Release (giant box set on 4K, Blu-Ray and DVD… or digital copy?). I believe these are the same 4K editions as the individual movie releases on 4K Blu-Ray. I’m told the included Blu-Rays are the same as the previous release, and the DVDs (or digital copies) are just SD editions of those Blu-Rays. This is massive set had a picture of the death star on the long box it came in. The individual movies had washed out re-arrangements vaguely resembling the original posters of each movie, with a kind of color tint to them. I barely paid attention at the time, so I don’t recall if ANH was yellow, pink or what, but I’m fairly sure ESB was blue and ROTJ was green.

The 2020 4K version should be the same “cut” as the Maclunkey edition, so I expect it wouldn’t be changed, but on the streaming service, anything is possible. We’ve heard about Disney making digital alterations seemingly on the fly to various movies, often without any kind of fanfare until spotted by subscribers.

Empire Strikes Back had a re-release in theaters in 2020, but that was the only one of the classic films re-released that I recall (and I couldn’t tell you what cut it was, though probably the modern one, since I was wearing a slightly fogged up helmet at the time).

[I don’t have Disney+ and I don’t care to subscribe, so if anyone has it and can check, I’d be curious to know if he’s mentioned in the end credits!]

So the question is… was he ever actually removed, and if he was, was he reinstated (perhaps after his death)?

I’m guessing when certain actors have been replaced, they have gotten quietly removed from the credits (Jason Wingreen as the voice of Boba Fett, Sebastian Shaw as the face of Anakin Skywalker, Clive Revill as the voice of the Emperor), but maybe not in all cases. It seems like the 1997 SE credits remained in the 2004 edition, for example.

Anyway, any help is appreciated! I can check the 2011 blu-ray but that’s about it for me.

Post
#1401773
Topic
Help Wanted: Star Wars films with audio description. Can anyone help out??
Time

Still alive, old friends…!

Those original audio recordings have gotten me through some tough times… I’ve listened to them on airplanes, while giving blood, seriously. Amazing stuff. The 2011 blu-ray tracks just don’t have the same charm somehow!

I hope you find people to help out, this worthy project. Unfortunately my job requires me to talk 8 hours a day so that’s usually the last thing I’d want to do. But Godspeed and MTFBWY

Post
#1383376
Topic
George Lucas: Unreliable Narrator &amp; Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

At one time I was actually pissed at Lucas… but I’ve long since forgiven him. I’ve even let my anger towards the leadership and spokespeople at Disney Lucasfilm subside. I just don’t care anymore. This is a fictional entertainment franchise intended to generate profit and that has never changed. I have long been able to accept that the stories evolved over time and as entertaining as many of movies are, there are certainly continuity issues that were not inevitable.

These are just some movies I liked as a kid that aren’t bad in their original form that I would watch again now and then and appreciate them for what they are, sci-fi fairy stories for modern Westerners like me. Some of the expansion material and games were fun too, and I am nostalgic about some of those. They’ll never “go away” just because they’re not canon.

I’m very grateful for communities like this that keep that spirit alive, and offer alternatives and glimpses back into the classic versions, without having to force myself (no pun intended) to try to justify or fit the new stuff all together into some kind of coherent religious worldview and really like it. To the ones who still want to do that though, God help you… (and if it produces a fine fan edit, I’ll give it a chance, no arguments here!)

I loved the Secret History of Star Wars, even if it read like a bunch of blog entries and forum posts pasted together. I loved the feeling of vindication it gave a fan who realized a lot of the hype was just that (but hadn’t done the research to be able to prove it to defensive skeptics), even though underneath it all here was a really creative and fun series of movies. I enjoyed the “Making of…” as well. I am grateful for obsessive types (of which I consider myself one) of this fandom who can share and compile and spread such information, not to destroy the fun of other fans (as they often assume about us, sadly) but to simply allow them to see through the mists of propaganda and discover the true origins of their beloved entertainment that is far more interesting than the manufactured myths. Thank you!

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#1383375
Topic
I just attended a screening of The Empire Strikes Back SE at my local theater
Time

Yes, I would love to watch ROTJ on the big screen again, but I am against pretty much all of the changes that have been made to that (my favorite) over the years, with the exception of the cleaned up Rancor. It would be painful to experience that again I think, when I could just watch a perfect version of it at home. If there was no pandemic on, I could probably have been convinced by a group of friends to go see it for $5, even if it was a goofed up version though to keep it 100%. But I haven’t seen anything about any other showings of the classic trilogy in my area…

I skipped 3D release of Episode I. If II and III came back to theaters, I might give them a go, as they haven’t changed much over the years in comparison.

Now if it was a real film, a 35mm or (even better) a 70mm high quality print? That would be a real treat. I wouldn’t travel out of state to see it though, unless I happened to already be there for something else.

Post
#1383371
Topic
I just attended a screening of The Empire Strikes Back SE at my local theater
Time

They were showing it in theaters in my area for most of the month of October (and it wasn’t a drive-in, but that’s a great idea!).

Hardly anyone was there. They were selling plastic lightsabers at the door, but I passed on that. I also didn’t order anything to eat, ate beforehand to minimize contact.

I didn’t show up on opening night but eventually worked up the courage to visit. I watched the whole thing while wearing a Boba Fett helmet (got creative with the PPE). Because of the breath fog around the edges of the transparent plastic of the visor viewing area (also, be careful on steps), it had a certain gauzy quality which was kind of attractive, and it blurred out much of the SE issues. Of course I knew there was the new Wampa there (and "alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival, and of course the sound of Jango Fett’s voice and engine from Attack of the Clones were unmistakable), and some of those snow drifts when Luke escapes looked way too blue. Otherwise I quite enjoyed it.

But I’d still rather see the original version once more on the big screen… with my own eyes. *

ESB is probably the best experience because it is the “film” least marred by in-your-face changes.

The theater I saw it in played clips from the Force Awakens and that awful “Last Jedi” before it, which only made the experience of what “real” Star Wars is like that much better, even if it was the 2019 (or 2011, I really couldn’t tell with the mask on… it could have been 2004 for all I knew).

Disney Star Wars soured me even wanting to think about Star Wars for quite some time and I hadn’t been to theaters to see anything with the title in about three years, I’m not going to lie. And nobody needs to try to refute or debate me on these points, I’m just sharing my feelings, #NoRetweets. 😉 Nothing beats the originals, even in this modified format. It was a refreshing experience after so much negativity towards the franchise and being away from this form of entertainment for awhile. Of course not everyone is so lucky, so I count myself blessed.

*Actually to be quite honest I have never seen the original version of ESB on the big screen. Only on VHS/cable, and the first time I saw it in theaters was the '97 Special Edition, and now this.