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KurganX

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8-Aug-2017
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17-Apr-2019
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Post
#1278083
Topic
The Last Jedi - Clean cut edition
Time

pleasehello said:

Easy! Insert an extra line of exposition with one of the characters (doesn’t matter which) saying, “Luke has actually transcended the physical plane, like a next level version of what Yoda and Obi-Wan did.”

Problem solved. Movie fixed.

Show scenes out of order. Might require some green screen inserts, but show Luke alive after his supposed “death.” There are lines about Luke being alive already from TFA that could be re-purposed. Again, I wouldn’t care to attempt it, but it could be done, and would improve the movie (but not redeem it completely).

The problem with the “red guards” is much the same problem with all the bad guys in these new movies. They’re played up as being awesome, but are really inept… noobs and punks. And the good guys are so OP, it’s silly… and then they suddenly have trouble overcoming drones like this (even though its a foregone conclusion that they’ll win). Some editing could improve this a bit, but again, it’s polishing the edges of a stinky pile of dung.

Post
#1278074
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

DougieP said:

Yes to all of this. Very deflated by the ST and probably gonna skip 9. 6 was a good ending.

Probably just going to stick with Dave Filonis work from now on. He seems to get it. The GOT guys might make something good too.

I never gave GOT a chance, partly because I needlessly ignore any popular hyped tv series (Lost, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Walking Dead), but also because it struck me as a low-rent LOTR that was trying way too hard to be edgy and iconoclastic (there’s a reason LOTR is still beloved, and it’s not because its fans are gullible, racist or stupid). People love it though… I personally can’t wait until its over and I can stop hearing about it. 😉 Being a hard-core jaded cynical curmudgeon ain’t easy!

That they will keep making Star Wars movies forever is understandable. Who can say “no” to all of that money? But I’d rather it die than keep going down the drain like this (and foster a toxic divided fandom as well). To me the stories of these movies would have been better as video games or comics than as legit “canon” installment in the film saga. They’re just the sort of thing you’d expect as a convenient excuse to insert the player into the action and do stuff within the universe that you wanted.

Post
#1278072
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

If this were a video game made in 2002, Kylo would have force pulled the saber out of Finn’s hand, and cut him down in seconds.

My perspective is so fundamentally different from this - it’s honestly kinda fascinating how some people can look at things and interpret them so distinctly.

I agree with your statement, it is what I thought after reading the OP.

Cool. So what’re your explanations as to why that didn’t happen (other than being unsatisfying for the audience)?

Are you agreeing that Kylo Ren actually sucks as a dark side villain?

As presented, he seems like a noob who knows a couple of tricks and that’s it. He’s symptomatic of the entire First Order really. It’s like the trope of the Empire being inept bad guys has grown into this. At least when things started off, they were a credible threat, even allowing for typical expected things like character shields for the main cast. But yet, somehow, TFA and then TLJ portray the bad guys as taking over the entire galaxy, losing it again, then taking it over again virtually overnight. They’re copying this directly from the EU (“Legends”), but it still sucks. The villains are talented at killing unarmed civilians, but anyone who stands up to them with a weapon is going to take them down a notch or at least leave a mark (Anti-Bullying PSA inserted here)

So not only is Rey OP, but her competition is deliberately dumb, to drive down the tension even more. At this point stuff is happening and its just seemingly random “will of the force” (writer fiat) than anything. That’s why I gave up on the Harry Potter movies (should have read the books instead?). The rules are all up in the air now… which would have been fine if there had not already been several movies before these!

Post
#1278065
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

LordZerome1080 said:

I agree with you completely. Nice to see that another great mind thinks alike. 😉

Thanks. I realize above my post gives the impression that I’m arguing “off screen” stuff counts for explaining flaws (by omission) in a movie. I’ve long maintained actually that a movie should stand on its own merits, without requiring that you consume supplemental books, comics, games, etc. to have it make sense. Where it counts is that I will favor these explanations (especially material made at the same time by the original creators) over fan imaginations (or even later “canon” tie-ins) as to what was intended.

In the trajectory of the movies, Luke starts out with merely picking up a lightsaber and making a few practice swings (some say he nearly missed hitting Obi-Wan, who quickly sits down away from him). The next time we see him turn it on, he’s clearly been training at least for a little while on the Falcon with Ben. This is all within the first movie and the introduction of Luke to a lightsaber. This is already a much more believable transition from Luke not knowing what the Force is to being able to go “toe to toe” with Vader. We can then move on to ESB where Luke is trained (again, for an indefinite period of time) by Yoda, with the lightsaber action only shown in the “vision” of the cave and the rest in deleted scenes (made finally officially publicly available with the blu-ray “saga” release in 2011… though we knew these existed from the comics and novelization back in '80). When Luke DOES fight Vader, he’s clumsy, and its made clear that Vader was not actually trying to murder him in the fight. Luke was beat up before he scored a (lucky) shot on Vader, but then was swiftly beaten.

Obviously, TFA was copying ESB here (not merely ANH, as it did for most of the movie), but it always struck me as stupid. Sure, Kylo Ren killed the rest of the New Jedi, but its implied he basically wiped out a bunch of noobs with the help of some gang (we have no idea of their power levels or abilities). It could have all been some kind of trickery or deus ex machina, it’s never clearly explained in the movies. Apart from a neat trick with stopping blaster bolts (and freezing Rey at one point), Kylo seems clumsy and amateur compared to what we’ve seen Jedi do in the past (the prequels are still canon with these episodes). Rey demonstrates very little skill, she mostly does the same move over and over again (but Ren doesn’t seem able to really beat her). Yet she still beats a character that, in-movie, was trained for years by Masters. No other Jedi demonstrates this kind of “second wind.” Obi-Wan got lucky, and he still needed the emotional trauma of his master cut down in front of him as the motivation, just as Luke needed the thought of Leia being turned to the Dark Side for his “burst of anger.” Rey just “remembered” she had the Force, and that was that (but he survives due to another poorly edited deus ex machina).

Yes, Kylo was “wounded before the fight” (taking a “bowcastor” shot to the gut, a weapon that is shown to be more powerful than your average blaster in the same movie), and he does beat Finn, who has no force powers… but Finn scores a hit on him (a la Luke scoring on Vader) before getting beaten down (and implausibly surviving, though his survival was in doubt until the next movie). There is no good reason why this should have happened other than that Kylo in fact sucks. He has been training for decades (presumably) with this Snoke fellow, but I guess he has rested on his laurels and didn’t get to do much.

This all goes along with the “saber imparts magical skill to the user” trope though. Finn touching Anakin’s saber gives him some basic skills. Prior to this we could speculate that he trained in melee combat like the “shock prod trooper” he loses to earlier in the movie. This part was not that objectionable. It was that he did so well against this supposed “Master” that was goofy, and felt to me like they were trying to swerve us that Finn had the Force too.

What people always gloss over, is that Rey got thrown against a tree and knocked out before her “victory” over Kylo, but nobody uses that as an excuse. They were both wounded in the fight, and we don’t have any indication that Rey has the mutant force healing ability. In fact, it’s made to appear that she doesn’t even use the Force until Kylo utters the stupid villain line while their blades are locked up and closes her eyes.

I am not saying the Force is only around when somebody closes their eyes and the music plays, but I am also not one who wants to use the Force as a catch all magic wand to wave away any film making mistakes or writing conveniences. So the lightsaber is magic, Rey is special (somehow) and Kylo Ren sucks. These are kids playing with lightsabers in their back yard, not seasoned Jedi, and they have far less valid excuses than Luke did in the OT.

If this were a video game made in 2002, Kylo would have force pulled the saber out of Finn’s hand, and cut him down in seconds. He would have done the same to Rey unless she somehow blocked him or had outside help.

Lightsabers do in fact consistently “slice and dice” in all of the movies, except for ROTJ, and this scene. Finn should have been cut in half, and Kylo should have lost the top of his head. Why Count Dooku didn’t kill Obi-Wan outright in Episode II is tougher to explain but at least we can imagine a master of his caliber can pull his punches when he wants to. No such explanation really flies here.

The whole issue of Luke’s flight ability is a problem sure, but Episode I did try to deal with it, by saying the Droid autopiloting in these things is so good that even a little kid can pilot one (and he still did terrible until he “got lucky,” wunderkind style). But, that is an after the fact rationalization within the canon, no different than if somebody made a movie two decades from now that explained away the problems in TFA. We do know they have droids and computers to help the pilots, and that’s the extent of it in the actual movie.

The bottom line is that the main protagonist of this new trilogy is too perfect, and the main antagonist, despite being promoted as powerful, seems far too inept to be a worthy threat. I have no faith in Episode IX, and even if its a good thing that hack JJ Abrams is going to patch up the mess bigger hack Rian Johnson left for him, I don’t really care. It would be too little, too late. Unlike some other fans, I’m not going to say promise that “well if they get this wrong, I only plan to pay to see the next 10 movies and THEN I quit!!!” I was done after TLJ. I watched Solo for free on DVD from my library a year after release (and read all the spoilers ahead of time). I don’t plan to see “the rise of skywalker” in theaters (the trailer did nothing to get me excited, and the trailers are usually the best things about these movies) and I’ll only watch (at home) it if I get positive recommendations from people I trust not to let their fanboy tendencies get away with them. 😉

As far as I’m concerned, the only thing that matters with “critical scores” is the Rotten Tomatoes audience score, which it sounds like RT is trying to neuter for fear of upsetting the corporate overlords who give critics access as advertising promoters more than consumer informers. I prefer to trust people I know who have seen the movie and I know what their tastes are. I just don’t want to waste anymore of my time and money on bad movies (unless they are so danged hilarious that I’ll get enjoyment just out of their sheer ineptness, but even then I’m not paying full price!).

Post
#1278063
Topic
The Force Awakens - PG edit
Time

oojason said:

KurganX said:

Honestly, no amount of cuts will turn this into a good movie, and any young one is better off seeing the original classics. Tell him that TFA is a boring ripoff and TLJ is a nihilistic middle finger (“naughty word”) to the fans. They were made by greedy people who didn’t care about making Star Wars good anymore.

The young lad will likely see the classics regardless - though the OP, as stated… ‘I have a 7 year old son who desperately wants to watch The Force Awakens’…

Mate, this thread is for coming up with ideas and suggestions to help achieve a PG Edit of the The Force Awakens film. It is not for people to put a downer on the ideas and contributions here - or give their opinion it is not worth the effort - in the way you have.
 

The young lad doesn’t likely need to be told to enjoy TFA & TLJ or not. Maybe he can even watch them with an open mind…
 

Though feel free to take your views to the TFA and TLJ review threads.
 

I did both. I pointed out it is NOT worth the effort in my opinion, AND that those two scenes (barely) earn it the “PG-13” rating. Otherwise, if a 7 year old kid (in the view of their parental figure) can handle Episode II, then they can handle this. People get very defensive sometimes, but I can’t recall the last time I’ve told someone NOT to make a fan edit, if they really wanted to.

Post
#1278038
Topic
Solo - A Star Wars Edit (Released)
Time

I didn’t hate Solo as much as I thought I would (saw it for the first time nearly a year after release, on DVD). Even more so than Rogue One, it feels like a TV movie. Apart from some truly cringeworthy moments, and some fan service, it isn’t that bad. But I can’t bring myself to see it as “canon.” It really doesn’t rise above the level of the Han Solo Adventures novels, from which it clearly drew inspiration. C’mon, even the Lando Calrissian adventures are referenced in there.

So kudos to another fan editor trying to smooth out the rough (I almost said “rogue”) edges of a problematic Lucasfilm release, but I don’t feel much can save this one. Again, had it been a multi-part mini-series on the Syfy channel, I’d probably give it higher marks. However, I’d watch it again in its raw form gladly before I’d see The Last Jedi (shudder) again…

Post
#1278036
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

I guess the tone of my last post was read a certain way that made people defensive. I didn’t ask whether Adywan was free to make his fan edits however he wanted. I asked whether he was now taking the lead from the newer movies in his edits. That’s it. Anybody want to take me to task for that now? Just checking. 😉

KurganX said:
“One funny thing, the notion that Rey is not a Mary Sue (or that Luke is a Gary Stu, so that makes it okay) is off. As thousands of others have pointed out, Luke suddenly knowing how to use a lightsaber (after training with Yoda) does actually make a certain amount of sense (and even if some of those scenes were deleted, they’re described in the novelization that was released before the movie). While Luke is portrayed (and assumed in other canon) to have just flown the equivalent of an aeroplane before he jumped into an X-Wing, with only a few seconds of doubt from Red Leader (and he gets the hang of it in minutes, notice Luke only goofs up a few things during the battle)… Rey on the other hand flat out admits she’s never left the planet, she doesn’t know why she has skills, and flies the Falcon for the first time at least as well (if not better) than Han or Lando do in ESB or ROTJ respectively (Han is even implied to be impressed with her). So she got less training in both areas before she was shown to be talented and effective, whereas Luke spends much more time failing and screwing up. Watch the movies again and tell me I’m wrong.”

More of my boring rant here: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Cant-be-Bothered-justifying-Reys-power-vs-Lukes/id/67001#1278035.

I personally don’t feel there’s enough good in any of the new movies to warrant salvaging them with edits (except perhaps Rogue One). It was inevitable that some would try though, and good luck to them!
Carry on…

Post
#1278035
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

I posted this in another thread, but felt it was out of place and going to be moved anyway, so here it is…

People have strong feelings on the new Disney saga and just like back in the day when we complained about stuff in the prequels, people tried to justify it with examples from the classic films. I was asking if a new fan edit of ROTJ was going to take the new movies into account. It was being suggested that Rey going from being proficient with a staff to a lightsaber was more believable than Luke going from a T-16 to an X-Wing.

It’s a lot easier to justify weird stuff in the new movies by referencing precedents in the Prequel Trilogy and/or the EU (the EU is actually where most everything “new” is coming from these days, I think people have forgotten, at least a portion of those things, good or bad, are from rejected concepts from the first three movies – most modern fans probably never read the old scripts or “legends”: another usage I dislike). Rey being a wunderkind is more like Anakin being a wunderkind in Episode I, though at least there we are given all kinds suggestions that Anakin is some special anomaly, and we know he’s been working with machines for years. Rey is still a step up from that kind of natural ability, in the absence of some later reveal that she had memory loss of how she acquired skills. TLJ puts a damper on that speculation, however.

One funny thing, the notion that Rey is not a Mary Sue (or that Luke is a Gary Stu, so that makes it okay) is off. As thousands of others have pointed out, Luke suddenly knowing how to use a lightsaber (after training with Yoda) does actually make a certain amount of sense (and even if some of those scenes were deleted, they’re described in the novelization that was released before the movie). While Luke is portrayed (and assumed in other canon) to have just flown the equivalent of an aeroplane before he jumped into an X-Wing, with only a few seconds of doubt from Red Leader (and he gets the hang of it in minutes, notice Luke only goofs up a few things during the battle)… Rey on the other hand flat out admits she’s never left the planet, she doesn’t know why she has skills, and flies the Falcon for the first time at least as well (if not better) than Han or Lando do in ESB or ROTJ respectively (Han is even implied to be impressed with her). So she got less training in both areas before she was shown to be talented and effective, whereas Luke spends much more time failing and screwing up. Watch the movies again and tell me I’m wrong.

TFA flat out leads us to believe that the Force gives proficiency and skills to a person they lacked before. At the time I saw it in theaters I interpreted JJ as following the EU notion that certain “artifacts” are imbued with power, such that when the right person “touches” them, they not only get the memories that were put into that object, but the abilities that were granted to it. It’s the old “magic sword, makes you a hero” trope from fantasy. While this existed in various forms in the EU, it was something new for the movies. IF we accept it, then no explanation for Rey’s powers are required. She doesn’t have to be some chosen one vergence of the midichlorians. Many speculated from TFA (rightly so) that Rey was going to be someone who simply had their memory erased by trauma and the dark side. I have so little invested in the franchise at this point though, I really don’t care if they bother to explain it adequately. Some probably love this interpretation of Star Wars Lore, more power to them.

The last thing that bugs me about any of this are the excuses that have been offered (not accusing anyone in these forums, but elsewhere in media) to defend TFA and TLJ, suggesting that one is a misogynist, a right-winger, a racist, or someone who is too old or jaded to appreciate new things… if they offer such criticisms. Or saying head canon and expectations were too high. I only asked for good movies, and they gave us garbage (millions disagree… I don’t care), but my expectations have been very, very low since 2005. This is why I have to clarify when I say I’m a “Star Wars fan” that I’m not a fanboy who loves everything with the logo on it, and don’t feel I have to justify everything the company that owns the IP does (anymore today than I did when George was in charge, and he made his share of mistakes with his own creations). It’s one thing when these attempts to demonize critics of a movie come from fans, but when they are mouthed by the cast, crew, or other people representing the franchise, that really sours a person’s fandom, let me tell you. I could ignore this poisonous atmosphere a lot easier if the product they were putting out was consistently good.

Thankfully, my experience of OT.com is not like that. I see a lot more openness, creativity, and comradery here than I’ve seen in a long time in any fan community associated with Star Wars, for obvious reasons. If only that attitude would spread. MTFBWY

Post
#1276476
Topic
LOTR EE color re-grade
Time

Forgive a poor noob here, but while these color-regrades sound like a great idea in principle, wouldn’t it just be easier to lower the saturation and/or yellow balance on your TV and achieve pretty much the same correction effect a lot easier?

I mean sure, a colorized black and white movie can be “fixed” by turning the saturation to zero as well but that doesn’t mean you can’t create a true grayscale version, but am I way off on this?

Post
#1276472
Topic
The Last Jedi - Clean cut edition
Time

How about this for a suggestion… Luke vanishes, but he isn’t dead.

He appears later in physical form. That’s how I originally interpreted the scene (until the internet made it clear he was intended to have actually died from exertion for the “hologram fight”). Instead, edit it so that it seems Luke has actually transcended the physical plane, like a next level version of what Yoda and Obi-Wan had (precedent for this in the early Revenge of the Jedi drafts. I’m not going to waste time editing a movie that I think sucks and is irredeemable (and is non-canon in my view, along with the rest of Disney Star Wars), BUT that is one change I think that would improve the movie.

Post
#1276471
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

So has Adywan decided that both the blu-ray prequel trilogy and Disney Star Wars are “canon” and his versions of OT will be brought more in line with them?

If so, then we don’t need to explain training, the Force just “gives” skills, abilities, etc. to whoever needs them (light or dark) when the time is right. Touching a lightsaber is enough to make you proficient with it against a master who has trained for decades. People can cut themselves off from the force and not use it for ages and then whip out a deus ex machina. And the Jedi knowledge fits on a small shelf of a few leather bound books, all those holocrons in the EU and “books” in the Jedi Archives were mostly technical manuals and poetry, I guess. Plot contrivances, characters acting inconsistently (even droids), and absurd coincidences, are all just “the will of the Force,” now. Even poor memories and incessant lying can be hand-waved away in this manner, at least that’s what we were told when TFA came out.

Post
#1276470
Topic
The Force Awakens - PG edit
Time

TFA feels very “PG” to me, but then I’m judging by the standards of the other “PG” installments of the series, all except Episode I & II, which came out in the era before “PG-13” even existed.

About the only scene that to me pushed it a little in that direction was the “dripping blood” scene of Kylo’s wound as he begins to fight Ray and Finn in the forest. But I guess the “Wiping blood on the helmet” scene with Finn might have counted as well (it seems movies accumulate incidents to an overall subjective rating).

Honestly, no amount of cuts will turn this into a good movie, and any young one is better off seeing the original classics. Tell him that TFA is a boring ripoff and TLJ is a nihilistic middle finger (“naughty word”) to the fans. They were made by greedy people who didn’t care about making Star Wars good anymore.

Post
#1157745
Topic
Star Wars saga - Extra Extended Edition (1080p)
Time

Happy New Year!!!

benduwan said:

KurganX said:

It’s been a long time since I listened to the Star Wars “Radio Dramas” (which are available on audio CD) but was it just my imagination or was there the sandstorm scene done for the Return of the Jedi edition? It would probably be near the beginning since it takes place after they leave Jabba’s if memory serves in the screenplay…

^…^ said:

May you check it out, and report your conclusions here? Thanks a lot!

you´ve done it kurgan?

Sorry, no I haven’t and won’t make any effort to. When I heard these the one time (16+ years ago), I was borrowing my roommate’s set. Honestly, they weren’t that good (reading the novels & comics of the movies were a lot more fun), and I have no desire to purchase them just to see if that particular scene is there. Now if a person IS interested, it might be worth checking your public library. I’m a bit annoyed with the library system in my home state though, as it seems they’re all too eager to chuck out old stuff in favor of buying new things instead of preserving it.

So not to be “that guy” but I say let the one who is interested in using the sand storm material in a fan edit review it. Maybe somebody already snipped it out, I swore I’ve seen parts of the Radio Dramas appear on youtube (tsk, tsk…).

On a more positive note, one of the best uses I’ve seen of the deleted footage was “Grindhouse Star Wars” which took material from a variety of sources (including use of the black and white alternate cantina scene). I greatly enjoyed seeing that and hope it’s not the last time somebody is that ambitious with it.

Post
#1157744
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

I always wanted to see the scene (shown only in concept art) of the B-Wings doing a proper bombing run on a Star Destroyer. If that appeared, it could blot out the traumatic memory of the stupid “resistance bombers” from TLJ. 😛

I always imagined that “both endings” from the original ROTJ (the personal celebration) and the SEs (the greater celebration) could be successfully worked together, either as a transition, or as the latter being re-situated as a post-credits sequence. Lots of fixes could be done in the action sequences to make sure hits look like they connect and R2D2’s dome isn’t so badly painted over (shades of the “Emperor’s Slugs”) plus tons of green matte boxes around ships in the space battle. About the only “SE” change I would keep though really is Oola’s death, but it’s not strictly necessary (but the wonderfully improved Rancor has to stay).

ESB:R was great. My only gripe with it (if you can even call it that), were those overly fuzzy lasers that the Snowspeeders were shooting at various points in the Hoth battle, that don’t look like they fit. Otherwise, great job. I’m a bigger fan of ROTJ than the other two classics, so I probably will disagree with some of the other changes, but I lived through Lucas’ nonsense, I’m sure I can stomach a few missteps on this too. 😉 And thank goodness we have the De-Specialized Editions in High Definition.

Good luck and MTFBWY!

Post
#1157741
Topic
The Last Jedi : Fan Edit Ideas - ** <strong>SPOILERS INSIDE</strong> **
Time

I thought this movie was drek. After the disappointing rehash/reboot of TFA, I wasn’t expecting much, until the critics praised it through the roof and everyone I knew who had seen it said it was awesome maybe the best Star Wars yet… and it turns out about half the audience agrees with me (I just don’t know any of them personally, they’re all on the internet). I hope the negative reaction has an effect on the Disney franchise, because we don’t need more like this… eventually people will wake up and realize it’s junk and the franchise will sink back into oblivion due to this mismanagement.

I imagine the fanboys are so defensive right now in protecting the film, they’ll receive any fan edit as a personal insult, but give it time… and the rest of us will be interested to see what happens.

Anyway, I give all the credit in the world to any fan editor who is willing to spend the time to try to save this disaster of a “Star Wars” episode. If it were me, I’d start by trying to make one film out of Episode 7 & 8 (they’re intended to be right after the other, after all), and splice in where appropriate the deleted scenes (I presume we’ll get some for the latter when TLJ comes to video).

Not sure what I’d fix, other than remove so many of the bad jokes. Not sure what can be done about the continuity gaffes and just overall badness, but then I thought nothing could be done about the prequels and people proved me wrong…

In any case, MTFBWY