Jonno

dark_jedi said:

OK so I am pretty sure this is a stupid question but I am sure no one here wants to see The Black Hole without the opening overture/intro correct?

Speaking personally I'm a theatrical purist, so if it was there at the cinema I like to see it on the disc! Wikipedia seems to think only the 70mm prints included the overture - I can't find much other reference to the various releases, but perhaps it was a first-run deal (were studios still doing roadshow screenings in 1979?)

Is there an issue with the materials you have to hand? If it's not on your existing video/soundtrack, you could simply reinstate it with a black screen and the track from the remastered OST - let me know if you need a rip of that!

Not really - it's all just opinion, regardless of the chosen pronoun/article.

makinbiscuits said:so this is now my definitive edition of Alien.

 Careful now.

That's quite effective - the balanced picture quality and smoothed out sound mix make for a very convincing whole.

You're running into an issue that I found when I played with Alien footage myself, though. It seems Scott shot a great deal of coverage on certain sequences (perhaps most), giving himself plenty of options in the editing room. As a result, the 'official' presentations of deleted scenes assembled at different times - appearing in the old laserdisc package, the DC and various documentaries - include alternative footage of the exact same events. If you try to combine everything and waste nothing, you end up with a great deal of redundant material (hence Ripley taking a full minute to climb down the ladder).

If you're going to edit a version of the film that's both extended and coherent, you'll have to make some choices about which shots/angles you prefer - an edit that incorporates 100% of the available footage will be somewhat repetitive, to say the least. My advice is to let go of absolute completion and be prepared to get creative.

benduwan said:

do you combine all releases of alien and including all deleted scenes they out there?

a 3h movie?

why you don´t use the bluray?

He answered all of these questions in the first post, if you read it.

Unlike you, perhaps Abrams and co. are more interested in her talent than her appearance.

Wow, 6 years!
I still have Russ's DVD transfers of an edited recording. The plan was to reconsitute the whole broadcast including the missing ads, but I never found any in acceptable quality.

There's plenty of evidence that complete recordings exist - still holding out hope that one will surface around these parts some day.

Or else - unthinkably - simply have the character turn up without the suit.

Something for Spaced Ranger to work on after the Blu is released, I guess.

TServo2049 said:

Interesting. Have you ever seen a 35mm print?

Sadly no, so my views are solely based on having seen the home video versions (albeit a fair few of them!)

It's hard to tell - it may originate from the HD remaster/restoration done for the Blu (before all the questionable colour work was done), but since that's 6 years old now, and the DCP looked better in pretty much every respect, I'm inclined to think it's a do-over.

Just back from seeing the current DCP of Wrath of Khan. Despite my misgivings, it turned out to be absolutely beautiful; authentic colour and pleasing grain. Outside of a freshly-struck 35mm print, it's hard to imagine a better presentation of this film. Catch it if you ever get the chance.

Many thanks dlbsyst!

kk650 said:

Nobody here has called regrading Man of Steel a 'restoration'. I don't see how it not being a restoration suddenly makes it a fanedit though. No editing has been suggested by anybody here, so the only change would be the colour grading, so clearly the 'fanedit' category you want to place this project in does not apply.

The thread title includes the word 'fix', and it's in the preservation thread - hence my concern about its taxonomy.

I think your hard and fast definition of 'editing' is reductive, and that a deliberate alteration of colour constitutes an edit, but to me the larger issue is that the film materials are being manipulated for the hell of it, as opposed to restoratively.

I absolutely agree that 'proper' image and sound for a given film is subject to interpretation, but for my money a well researched and evidence-based approach such as Harmy's is always preferable to 'what looks right'. The intent is markedly different - on the one side, trying to recover *an* original look for the film from all available evidence (however limited), and on the other using personal taste and judgement to make adjustments.

Whew! I hadn't intended to argue my angle quite so vociferously, but I think this particular case (and people's attitudes to it) is an interesting one, because the original video was touted, embraced and posted here as some sort of repair when it was clearly nothing of the sort.

kk650 said:

Otherwise you seem to be suggesting that any release with colour grading different to the official release is a fanedit, which would of course make the despecialised editions fanedits as well.

Not quite - I'm suggesting that a fan-modified release with colour grading different to the original/theatrical release constitutes a fan edit, or at least fan version. Unlike Star Wars Despecialized, which is based on precise examination of original prints, a recoloured Man of Steel won't restore or 'fix' any authentic experience; it will be a personal interpretation.

The official releases are, for better or worse, what the makers intended and what was seen in theatres. Reinterpret it by all means, but such a project shouldn't be considered a restorative measure, however much some may prefer it.

Just to be clear on this, these projects are aimed at altering Man of Steel not to how it is supposed to look, but to how people want it to look?

That's all fine I guess, but you're all talking about a revision, not a restoration. There's a fan edit section for that sort of thing...

If it hadn't already been strenuously denied that he'd be involved, I'd swear the music in this trailer is a Michael Giacchino arrangement of the Williams themes. The rising scale is very much his style.

Thanks for the observations on the print, TServo. It's possible the palette was consciously restricted in the old HD scan if SD presentation was the end goal, or perhaps it's just limitations of the tech. In any case, it's good to know we have some rough approximations of the theatrical look in HD.

I've never seen Khan in 35mm, sadly, but I'm going to see a DCP showing in a couple of weeks. I expect it to look like the Blu (just as current DCPs of Alien and Mad Max 2 do) but we'll see.

That's unusual, I've never seen a Dolby trailer attached to a TV rip (or screening).

A 'raw' theatrical HDTV rip would be a good find - I'm finding the 1080i DC a bit tricky to conform to the theatrical audio. It's worth the effort, though - it's a terrific presentation of the film, and side by side with the Blu demonstrates just how misjudged that remastering job was.

Incidentally, the 1991 widescreen laserdisc appears not to be the reported 2.35:1, but rather an opened-out 2.20:1. I'm not sure if any other releases use this format - presumably it's what the 70mm prints would have looked like.

Oh dear, I thought we were having a discussion. It is of course up to you whether you answer my question, but you seemed keen to make a point about perceived problems that I had no real awareness of.

Music editing in the analogue age wasn't exactly a precise art, and you'll find errors where you look for them. While I certainly wasn't trying to argue that the presentation of the OT scores were technically perfect - not that I have ever found them lacking in my many, many viewings - I was talking about the music itself: themes, melodies, orchestration. Consistently good judgement in the OT, frequently dropped balls in the PT (and SEs).

Our friend above seems to be advocating change for change's sake; I think the project under discussion is a little more respectful to the original material, though Adywan's tolerance for the rougher aspects of the mix is his to choose.

Anyway. Sorry you've had a tiring day, and hope you have more success with your own restorations...

Jonno said:

Examples please.

Ronster said:

 It's a bit of a sweeping statement but yeah on the whole with regard to Light Saber duels I will agree with you but not as a complete film (ESB) or saga there are mistakes in there... and there are also problems created by the special editions too with regard to music and cues.... Don't forget that.

 Strangely no 'mistakes' and 'problems' sprung to mind when I confidently described Williams' original Star Wars scores as 'just right'.

Examples please. And feel free to ignore technical errors, along with any reference to SE mutilations - I certainly wasn't talking about those.

Masirimso3 said:

I understand, that's cool. In my opinion the lightsaber fight in A New Hope, while still fun, lacked the energy of the fights in Episode V, VI, I, II and III. Adywan's added music belped add some energy and excitement to the fight. While the Bespin duel was much better, I thought some more excitement would be welcome so I decided that Duel of the Fates, while, yes, it didn't have to do anything with Vader and Luke, still added a lot of excitement and fun to the already emotionally and physically strong battle making t even more perfect than it was. Well, maybe when it's released I might add the music to the downloaded fanedit, like I'm planning to do for ADigitalMan's version (along with removing the added Wampa Shots restoring "the Jaws effect" as HelloGreedo from YouTube put it).

Also why does Adywan want to remove the music from ANH:RHD? I thought the music helped the fight very much (I already explained how).

The thing is, duels (lightsaber or otherwise) can have significance other than 'exciting' and 'cool'. It's understandable that the Episode I clash would be scored with exhilarating choral music, because it's a visually spectacular duel with relatively low stakes.

But the later battles (each of which involves Anakin or Vader, by the way) have increasingly more complex emotion behind them - they're still epic, but in a different way. I personally feel that 'Battle of the Heroes' is a bungled choice; it shouldn't be a loud and energetic piece of scoring at all, given that the Episode III duel is the tragic climax of the saga.

But moving on to the OT, the scoring is just right as it is - in Star Wars the very idea of a lightsaber battle was new, so it's understandable that scoring wasn't felt necessary until the very end; the (carefully edited) music in the ESB duel beautifully captures Luke's fear and heartbreak; the climactic Jedi clash is scored with one of the finest pieces in the whole saga (a truly epic cue if every there was one).

To plaster these scenes with pounding action music would be to completely miss the point.

II will be a bit more complicated, since I'll need to conform the DC to the theatrical for sound sync, but initial impressions are very good. The grain level on the BD was always fine, but it's the colour that really stands out on these transfers - nothing forced, just the way they always looked before twiddling became so popular!

I'm really intrigued as to where in the food chain these transfers fit in. The obvious explanation would be that they're from the masters the DVDs were derived from (they certainly look the same framing and colour-wise) but they're an odd assortment of directors' and theatrical editions - perhaps they were simply what the studio had lying around at the time. In any case I doubt anyone put a great deal of effort into them at any point, but ironically that's provided us with the most honest versions around.

By the way, forgot to mention that VI has the same burnt-in alien language subs as the DC DVD. Possibly theatrical, might have to look at a laserdisc for more evidence though. It will be interesting to see what they look like on I, II, and III.

Jetrell, did you ever sync your theatrical DTS for Generations to anything?

Many thanks to dlbsyst for helping me navigate the treacherous waters of usenet! I've got II and VI safe and sound, will get on the others soon.

Since I've just had a tinker with VI, here are my findings in case anyone else is planning on doing a project:

The picture is actually 2.00:1 ratio, which is less wide than the supposed 2.20:1 of the 70mm screenings. It also has some extra lines at the top and bottom (some broadcast junk added by Sky no doubt) so it is in fact 1920x1088 - this needs to be trimmed for BD compatibility.

x5gb was right on the money with the video levels - if you set the input levels to 16 - 235 in your colour corrector, you'll get the proper black to white range (and a generally pleasing colour balance).

The frames are a perfect match to the BD video, but the video is missing exactly 2 seconds of black at the start - bear this in mind if you're using another soundtrack (such as Buster D's terrific PCM rip).

Other than that, it's a very nice and filmlike presentation. Thanks to everyone who brought these captures to our attention!

Afraid I can't help you with that. Is it a commercial source? You may have to go back to the original disc for a clean version.