JediExile

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
Vader did love Luke, but not nearly to the extent Han loved Kylo really. Kylo definitely feels something for Han, but I still wouldn’t compare that to the conflict between Vader and Luke.

Han loving Ben doesn’t mean shit because he wasn’t the one who was tasked killing a loved one. And I’m not saying the situations are exact but they’re similar enough to warrant saying “By the grace of your training I will not be seduced”

Yeah I guess you’re right. I give up on this point, I’ll see the movie again sometime and see how it works out in my mind when I watch the scene after this conversation.

Most of the people I’ve talked to get the idea that Kylo is just some kid trying to be something he isn’t.

And that’s part of what makes him so compelling. This man is literally willing himself to be evil and I think like Sean Gillis (who pretty much convinced himself he was a serial killer at heart) Kylo will convince himself he is of the Dark Side to the point in which that line of thought becomes permanently ingrained in his mind

Yeah it makes him fun to watch, if a little bit goofy at times.

He did kill Han and that gives me hope he won’t turn, but if Anakin could slaughter most of the Jedi and take part in blowing up a planet and STILL be redeemed, Kylo can too.

Well Vader had a couple of reasons to turn. One being that Palpatine lied to him about everything and his compassion for his son. Kylo doesn’t have any reasons thus far and we don’t know what he thinks of his mother. I can’t wait to find out though

Does Vader actually realize that Palpatine manipulated him after all those years though? I always thought that he was just building up guilt over the years and killing his son in that situation was the breaking point.

I don’t see the issue with the “Han Solo can’t save you” line. Rey was emotionally attached to him and Kylo figured this out when he probed her mind earlier. Also the wound beating seemed more practical (at least in terms of Star Wars) than not. I always saw it as him inflicting more pain on himself to help himself draw from the dark side more. Very cool moment, I kind of wish he did that throughout the fight.

It’s the way he said “Han Solo can’t save you” , and the look in his eyes that makes me think he’s a little mentally unstable. And I agree it is a great moment; it’s those small moments which adds to overall development of the character in a significant way. And he did do it again after his first pass with Finn.

I’ll need to watch the scene again, but it hit me that he was unhinged.

TV’s Frink said:

All this back and forth is making me nunb.

You seem annoyed at this conversation, why?

There has been a lot of PT fanboys on here as of late. We haven’t seen many real discussions around here in a while.

What’s wrong with people who like the PT though? They’re fun movies, all Star Wars movies are pretty fun to watch. Minus Attack of the Clones of course, that movie is really terrible.

TV’s Frink said:

JediExile said:

TV’s Frink said:

All this back and forth is making me nunb.

You seem annoyed at this conversation, why?

You seem confused by my annoyance, why?

Well it doesn’t seem like you’ve really engaged in conversation about TFA in the last few or more pages. It’s a little odd to be annoyed by a conversation you’re not even a part of, especially on a forum. If the way I’m replying to posts bothers you, speak up and I can rework my posts. There’s no need to poke fun at me for doing nothing though.

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
I interpret the scene as just assuring Snoke he won’t fail period.

Why wouldn’t he just say “By the grace of your training I will not fail”? Saying he will not be seduced changes the entire landscape of the conversation

I disagree again, this is starting to go in circles a little lol.

While the Vader/Luke and Kylo/Han situations are similar, I think the Kylo and Han conflict is much more personal which is why I’m hesitant to even try to relate this scene back to the confrontation with the Emperor in RotJ. Kylo was raised by Han, Vader never even realized Luke existed until (I’m not really sure when he realized Luke was his son, I think the Emperor realized it before Vader did in ESB, but I can’t remember the scene for my life) 22 or so years after he was born. The emotional attachment, while there, isn’t as strong.

That doesn’t matter much because in some capacity Vader loved Luke to some degree and even Kylo feels something for Han seeing as how he was torn apart at the decision to kill him or not.

Vader did love Luke, but not nearly to the extent Han loved Kylo really. Kylo definitely feels something for Han, but I still wouldn’t compare that to the conflict between Vader and Luke.

And I think Kylo is a very different character from Vader in the sense that EVERYBODY IN THE FILM recognizes that he’s essentially just trying to be bad

Only Leia and Snoke thinks there’s still good in him. Han said there was too much Vader in him and that they lost their son forever and Rey calls him a creature in a mask and a monster. I don’t even know why you would capitalize such a blatantly false statement

Leia, Snoke, and Han feel that way. Although Han did say there’s too much Vader in him, he was the one that confronted him at the end because he saw an opportunity to get his son back. Rey does call him a creature in a mask yeah, you’re right. “Everybody in the film” is a pretty false statement, I guess that was projecting a little onto the film. Most of the people I’ve talked to get the idea that Kylo is just some kid trying to be something he isn’t. Anyways, the main characters who actually know Kylo feel that way though (minus Han now, maybe Leia I dunno we’ll have to see).

I don’t think it’s hard for anyone to look at Kylo and say “Yeah, he’s gonna redeem himself probably” (I really hope he doesn’t, but it seems inevitable really)

The only reason people think that is because Star Wars is supposed to be about hope and all that other sappy shit. From a narrative stand point Kylo did something Vader could never do and that was kill a loved one…much less in the vile way Kylo murdered Han.

Also there’s this quote

This just not the Force Awakens in a young woman; this is the Dark Side of The Force awakening in the villain - JJ Abrams

They could change things so that he’s even more conflicted in the sequels but what’s presented in TFA alone leads me to believe they’re setting Kylo up to be irredeemable.

Yeah like I said I really hope he doesn’t turn. It would make him a much more interesting villain, but we’ll see. He did kill Han and that gives me hope he won’t turn, but if Anakin could slaughter most of the Jedi and take part in blowing up a planet and STILL be redeemed, Kylo can too.

I’ll just say “Dark Jedi” or something in the future. Master of the Knights of Ren is a bit too long of a title for me.

You can also just call him a Knight of Ren. I also just call him a Dark Side Warrior so that there are no real factions tied into me calling him that.

Knight of Ren is okay too I guess. I really wonder what “Ren” is.

Now I know Kylo has a hard-on for power and admires Vader for being a badass cripple

Is the “cripple” thing necessary?
Yes, he is pretty much a crippled (more than physically) and I think it’s a really cool part about him. Anyone can be a badass in Star Wars, even if you’re horribly burned, a little green goblin guy, a big fuzzy dope, etc.

but how did he make that stretch that Anakin Skywalker was truly himself when he was Darth Vader

Maybe because how he sees it Vader was born to the Dark Side and without Luke’s meddling he would have stayed there.

Speculation really, I just hope they’ll explain it in the sequel a little more.

I get that he’s not exactly emotionally stable, but nothing in the movie (well, aside from this scene I guess) points to him being a loony. If Kylo Ren said that he’s seen the power of Vader, I’m kind of inclined to believe him. I just don’t see him being completely bonkers, just an emotionally conflicted guy.

Just seeing how say “Han Solo can’t save you” and then going on to beat his wounds leads me to believe this guy is a bit off his nut.

I don’t see the issue with the “Han Solo can’t save you” line. Rey was emotionally attached to him and Kylo figured this out when he probed her mind earlier. Also the wound beating seemed more practical (at least in terms of Star Wars) than not. I always saw it as him inflicting more pain on himself to help himself draw from the dark side more. Very cool moment, I kind of wish he did that throughout the fight.

I think it would have made more sense if that happened and Finn was the one more comfortable in the seat, yeah.

That’s kind of true but technically it’s something he’s never used before. He didn’t even feel comfortable in the canon section of a TIE Fighter.

Yeah you’re right on that.

TV’s Frink said:

All this back and forth is making me nunb.

You seem annoyed at this conversation, why?

emanswfan said:

Well I honestly haven’t played too many Star Wars games.

I’ve played all the 4 Lego Star Wars games (I (PT), II (OT), CS, and III (CW)), and am looking forward to the Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens this summer. I have a love in general for all things LEGO, includes physical sets and the video games. In other words, I played them more out of the LEGO love than the Star Wars love.

But if I had to pick one out of what I’ve played, it’d probably be LSW III since it has the most fun gameplay out of all of the LEGO ones. It certainly helps having a cartoon series be the source for a video game too. Shame they never made a follow up for the latter seasons of the show.

My fucking man, the LEGO Star Wars games are top notch in terms of everything. Pretty funny and adds a unique take on a lot of SW moments. TFA LEGO game looks okay, but the Season Pass (WHY?) and some platform exclusive DLC (More WHY?) worries me. The gameplay looks good too, but the voice acting is a little annoying to me. I liked the mumbles and incoherent babbling of the old LEGO games.
Gameplay

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke, but how does it tie into Vader and how does that reflect Vader?

I’m going to answer that with part of your own post

Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke - you

Not exactly what I meant, but I’ll get into that below.

What does the use of the word seduced tell the audience about how Kylo and the FO views Vader?

That Kylo Ren when put in a similar situation to the one Vader faced in ROTJ he will not be seduced by the enemy/the light side. Just because he doesn’t say "By the grace of your training I will not be seduced like Vader did" doesn’t mean that the obvious similarities in the task isn’t what prompted him to assure Snoke he wouldn’t be swayed from his path. There would be literally no reason for him to say that unless he’s trying to assure Snoke he will not fail in the same area as his grandfather. And just because something isn’t explicitly stated doesn’t mean the connection isn’t there; sometimes you just need to put two and two together. It’s not lazy/shitty writing to sometimes respect your audience’s intelligence.

I interpret the scene as just assuring Snoke he won’t fail period. While the Vader/Luke and Kylo/Han situations are similar, I think the Kylo and Han conflict is much more personal which is why I’m hesitant to even try to relate this scene back to the confrontation with the Emperor in RotJ. Kylo was raised by Han, Vader never even realized Luke existed until (I’m not really sure when he realized Luke was his son, I think the Emperor realized it before Vader did in ESB, but I can’t remember the scene for my life) 22 or so years after he was born. The emotional attachment, while there, isn’t as strong. And I think Kylo is a very different character from Vader in the sense that EVERYBODY IN THE FILM recognizes that he’s essentially just trying to be bad whereas Vader was undoubtedly bad (RIP Younglings). Luke was the one able to sense a small bit of goodness in his father, but even that hope of turning him eventually faded a little. I don’t think it’s hard for anyone to look at Kylo and say “Yeah, he’s gonna redeem himself probably” (I really hope he doesn’t, but it seems inevitable really). So I find it hard to watch that scene and relate it back to Vader in any way because the similarities in the conflicts pretty much begins and ends at Father vs Son.

That’s my bad.

It’s cool. It’s just one of those misconceptions I can’t understand because Snoke called him Master of The Knights of Ren

I’ll just say “Dark Jedi” or something in the future. Master of the Knights of Ren is a bit too long of a title for me.

This is exactly how I feel, so his Vader worship really confuses me. He goes and prays to the guy who failed the Emperor and was seduced to the light side for help with not being seduced to the light side. I don’t understand the scene at all.

Well since he knows about Vader’s turn and believes he was seduced by the enemy it is apparent that he thinks Anakin Skywalker is a perversion and that Darth Vader was his true self. Even when Rey gets into Kylo’s mind and discovers his fear it is that he will never be as strong as Darth Vader, not Anakin Skywalker

also there’s this:

It is the name of your true self. You’ve only forgotten - Luke Skywalker

So it’s more than possible Kylo thinks in reverse as to who Vader’s true self was

That is possible, but I don’t see how. Kylo was raised by Luke partially (during his training at the Jedi academy) so Luke must have told him about Vader and how he died. Now I know Kylo has a hard-on for power and admires Vader for being a badass cripple, but how did he make that stretch that Anakin Skywalker was truly himself when he was Darth Vader? This is why I was really interested to see Snoke say something about him because if he did even make passing mention of Vader in a positive light it’d be easy to make the argument that he twisted Ren’s view of Vader.
So essentially until the “fall” of Ben is shown, I think this scene will continue to not make sense to me.

The line “Show me your power again” (or whatever it was) to me implies that the ghost of Vader somehow exists and is somehow communicating with Ren which doesn’t make sense at all to me because Vader was redeemed.

Aside from my rebuttal above we need to heed to the fact that Kylo Ren is not of a stable mind. Even in the novelization the mask never communicates back.

I get that he’s not exactly emotionally stable, but nothing in the movie (well, aside from this scene I guess) points to him being a loony. If Kylo Ren said that he’s seen the power of Vader, I’m kind of inclined to believe him. I just don’t see him being completely bonkers, just an emotionally conflicted guy.

I think in ANH during the scene we’re talking about below it takes like 4-8 shots from a TIE Fighter.

Yeah that’s because Chewie wasn’t trying to evade any of the film. He was more or less keeping the ship steady

I actually thought that Chewie had lost some control over the ship during the fight (Leia mentions losing control of something, don’t remember quite what).

Also I wouldn’t say anything Rey did in the Falcon was mundane lol. Try flying a giant satellite dish with the cockpit on the far right, she did really well.

What I meant by mundane is her just doing basic evasive maneuvers

I don’t remember enough of the non-flippy/non-Star Destroyer part of the scene to argue against this or agree with it (Still need to get the DVD).

Yes, but that had more to do with the gun being stuck (I wonder why Finn didn’t just switch guns?) than having to do with her flying skills.

Well perhaps he didn’t know that was another one and perhaps the other gin wasn’t in a good position to fire. I don’t know really

As a side note, I never really understood how the guns were laid out or how the gravity worked in those little seats so maybe the top gun wasn’t in position to shoot, I dunno. I did just realize though that if Finn switched seats Rey wouldn’t have had to flip the Falcon over most likely.

I mean actually aiming it, not trying to hit a target. He was bouncing around like crazy in that seat, Luke just got into it and boom, started shooting without complaints. The seating seemed easy to get used to for a farm boy.

If anything Luke should have been the one who was uber uncomfortable sitting in the thing. Would definitely make the ordeal a tad more realistic.

I think it would have made more sense if that happened and Finn was the one more comfortable in the seat, yeah.

I dunno about Luke, but yeah she’s not as great as Han or Wedge. Too bad Wedge isn’t back for the newer films, I’d much MUCH rather have him than Nien “Literally who?” Nunb

Yeah, Wedge was cool. Hopefully he at least get’s a mention in the sequels.

Still a little annoyed that his actor said that being in the newer films would be “boring” or something along those lines. Even Daniel Craig and some other actors I believe popped on the set for some cameo roles(I still have no clue who he is in the film).

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
Yes, you’re right that Vader turning to the light is fairly unique in canon (I think? I haven’t watched TCW all the way through and I can’t be bothered to watch Rebels). When Kylo is speaking to Snoke though, he is talking about him and his father, not Luke and Vader. The use of the word seduced doesn’t mean anything for Vader’s redemption. Like I said, it might help enlighten the viewer to how the First Order views going back to the light, but not how the First Order views Vader himself.

It doesn’t matter if he’s talking about having to kill Han or not. Clearly the situations in TFA and ROTJ are similar so him saying he will not be seduced ties into Vader. It’s just not explicitly stated because it doesn’t need to me.

Yes it’s similar to the situation with Vader and Luke, but how does it tie into Vader and how does that reflect Vader? What does the use of the word seduced tell the audience about how Kylo and the FO views Vader?

It’s important when you have a Sith who worships the man who was partially responsible for the downfall of the Empire. If Snoke accepts Kylo’s worship towards Vader then it’s not hard to assume that the Knights of Ren/First Order does too. So how does Kylo and company feel about his redemption? It was an extremely important part of his character in RotJ and his redemption goes completely ignored in the TFA. All it needed was one scene, justifying the worship of his power over his actions against the Empire and it wouldn’t be an issue.

For one Kylo Ren is not a Sith. Secondly, since he knows about Vader’s redemption and he says “by the grace of your training I will not be seduced” means he was seduced by the enemy and the light side by extension. Any user of the Dark Side is going to look at such a thing with disdain and disappointment. Having a Dark Sider talk about how he feels about Vader’s turn is a bit redundant don’t you think?

You’re right, Kylo is not a Sith. That’s my bad.
I’m going to focus on one part of what you wrote for a moment:
“Any user of the Dark Side is going to look at such a thing with disdain and disappointment.”
This is exactly how I feel, so his Vader worship really confuses me. He goes and prays to the guy who failed the Emperor and was seduced to the light side for help with not being seduced to the light side. I don’t understand the scene at all. The line “Show me your power again” (or whatever it was) to me implies that the ghost of Vader somehow exists and is somehow communicating with Ren which doesn’t make sense at all to me because Vader was redeemed. It’s a very confusing scene. I understand wanting to worship Vader for his power, but maybe praying for him to help you stay on the dark side is a bad idea.
This is why it’s important for me to know how exactly Kylo feels about Vader. Being seduced by the enemy is not something positive and it definitely doesn’t call for worship. But most of all, it most certainly doesn’t call for asking the helmet of that traitor to help you not betray the dark side. Why would Kylo do this? How does he view Vader? Seduced isn’t enough to make sense of this scene.

I mentioned a deleted scene of Snoke going over Vader’s redemption before, but can’t seem to find it now. If anyone could find and link it that’d be great.

It’s not a deleted scene; it’s a scene in the novelization.

I could have sworn I saw a video describing a deleted scene from the movie where Snoke talks about Vader, but must be my imagination or something.

That doesn’t explain anything.
“Oh shit, there’s danger” doesn’t really explain the existence of a “Resistance” when there should just be a Republic Army dealing with the First Order.

Having the Republic deal with The First Order is another layer into the conversation. The Resistance was created as a backroom type of way to destroy the First Order. If you include the whole treaty the conversation shifts immensely.

I realize the purpose of the Resistance is to fight the First Order, but the why for it’s creation isn’t in the movie. “Why isn’t the Republic itself doing this?” is probably the first thing I thought while watching the movie and it isn’t explained at all. It’s explained that the Resistance is being supported by the Republic indicating a positive relationship, but other than that I know nothing about the Resistance and the Republic. Then I read about the treaty and I got a little mad, but it made more sense. You can’t just continue a series 30 years later and be unwilling to delve even a tiny bit into the politics that occurred during those 30 years and explain why the Republic army isn’t involved in the movie.

Yes I realize she was having a hard time flying the Falcon in the beginning, but the rest of her flight honestly makes those little issues in the beginning seem like a joke.

Almost crashing the ship is not a little issue. It could have gotten them killed or captured. Furthermore she got hit twice during the chase and showed visible difficulty while doing the most mundane things with the Falcon. We never saw any type of difficulty flying the Falcon/X-Wing/Snow Speeder with Luke or Han

“Crashing” seems a little extreme. To me that implies higher speeds and a chance to die horribly. She had a rough takeoff and fucked up an archway if I remember, but the Millennium Falcon wasn’t about to shit itself or anything.
She did get hit twice during the chase, but the Millenium Falcon is a huge target (unlike an X-Wing) and it’s taken more hits from a TIE Fighter in the past. I think in ANH during the scene we’re talking about below it takes like 4-8 shots from a TIE Fighter. So the thing’s shields can take a beating and the armor itself has always seemed tough.
Also I wouldn’t say anything Rey did in the Falcon was mundane lol. Try flying a giant satellite dish with the cockpit on the far right, she did really well.

I mean she flies the thing through the hollowed hull of a Star Destroyer. Like hot fucking damn that thing gave her less room to maneuver than the Trench on the Death Star ever did.

That was impressive but even then she still barely made it out of there.

Yes, but that had more to do with the gun being stuck (I wonder why Finn didn’t just switch guns?) than having to do with her flying skills.

I don’t really understand why he was having trouble with aiming the turret though, Luke and Han made it look really easy

Yeah that’s why it took Han 43 seconds to destroy the first TIE Fighter.

I mean actually aiming it, not trying to hit a target. He was bouncing around like crazy in that seat, Luke just got into it and boom, started shooting without complaints. The seating seemed easy to get used to for a farm boy.

This is all just speculation though, her flying was great.

Overall it was a pretty good performance. Not on Han and Luke’s level. Hell I wouldn’t even put her up with Wedge.

I dunno about Luke, but yeah she’s not as great as Han or Wedge. Too bad Wedge isn’t back for the newer films, I’d much MUCH rather have him than Nien “Literally who?” Nunb

Lord Haseo said:

While the use of the word “seduced” might imply that’s how the First Order might view those who go back/fall to the light, it doesn’t tell us anything about Vader who is partially responsible for the necessity of a splinter group.

Maybe but then again in canon someone turning back to the light in such a circumstance has only happened in Vader’s case.

Yes, you’re right that Vader turning to the light is fairly unique in canon (I think? I haven’t watched TCW all the way through and I can’t be bothered to watch Rebels). When Kylo is speaking to Snoke though, he is talking about him and his father, not Luke and Vader. The use of the word seduced doesn’t mean anything for Vader’s redemption. Like I said, it might help enlighten the viewer to how the First Order views going back to the light, but not how the First Order views Vader himself.

Do they hate him for it? Do they focus on his achievements? Do they deny his fall at all and blame the death of the Emperor on Luke? Is it just Kylo Ren that worships him? Why does Kylo Ren exactly worship him? Was it a moment of weakness or a definite betrayal?

Most of those questions don’t need to be answered unless you see every Storm Trooper or Imperial Commander having conversations about Vader or having Vader memorabilia everywhere. The only person who seems to have any admiration for Vader is of course Kylo Ren and it should be self explanatory why he worships Vader. If not read Lords of The Sith; Lord Vader was pretty much a god in his prime.

It’s important when you have a Sith who worships the man who was partially responsible for the downfall of the Empire. If Snoke accepts Kylo’s worship towards Vader then it’s not hard to assume that the Knights of Ren/First Order does too. So how does Kylo and company feel about his redemption? It was an extremely important part of his character in RotJ and his redemption goes completely ignored in the TFA. All it needed was one scene, justifying the worship of his power over his actions against the Empire and it wouldn’t be an issue. I mentioned a deleted scene of Snoke going over Vader’s redemption before, but can’t seem to find it now. If anyone could find and link it that’d be great.

That’s perfectly fine and all, but that’s not what concerns me. Sure, the Republic supported the Resistance, but that doesn’t tell me why there is a Resistance.

“Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy” - Maz about the First Order

That’s why

That doesn’t explain anything.
“Oh shit, there’s danger” doesn’t really explain the existence of a “Resistance” when there should just be a Republic Army dealing with the First Order.

That doesn’t tell me what happened to the Republic’s army.

This is something they could have explained. They also don’t mention the treaty at all which is pretty mandatory.

Yeah that was my point. The idea of an army being supported by the Republic fighting against the First Order instead of the Republic actually fighting the First Order is really odd and needs to be explained.

Gonna disagree about Rey. She’s not a Mary Sue

I never said she was a Mary Sue, I said “Call her a Mary Sue if you want” because even when I explain this kind of shit people still call her that anyway.

I wasn’t saying you said she was a Mary Sue. I was just saying I don’t believe she is one. She has struggles and failures, but I feel that her achievements overall put those struggles in the background. People seem to think that a Mary Sue is just a character that can do amazing things that others can’t, but if that were true then most Force users would be Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

but that scene with her “struggling” to fly the Falcon was pretty much her having a rough takeoff and skimming the sand wasn’t much of a struggle.

So her almost crashing the ship before the flight began isn’t even struggling…are you serious? And her skidding across the ground along with her being hit a couple of time and the shots of her in the cockpit showing her struggling to fly the thing (in contrast to Han who had absolutely no struggle and flew into an asteroid field like it’s nothing) shows that she was having more than a hard time piloting the Falcon.

Yes I realize she was having a hard time flying the Falcon in the beginning, but the rest of her flight honestly makes those little issues in the beginning seem like a joke. I mean she flies the thing through the hollowed hull of a Star Destroyer. Like hot fucking damn that thing gave her less room to maneuver than the Trench on the Death Star ever did. I think Han landing at lightspeed is still more impressive, but man if that’s not an achievement in piloting when you’re unfamiliar with a ship, I don’t know what is.

TIE Fighters with clever evasion skills,

Those clever evasion skills would have meant nothing had Finn not shot down the first TIE Fighter. Before then she got hit at least twice.

I’m not sure about that. Finn did do good with the first TIE Fighter (I don’t really understand why he was having trouble with aiming the turret though, Luke and Han made it look really easy, you move the sticks to position your seat for a better look at what you’re shooting at. It seemed really convenient actually more than confusing), but I think Rey flying through the Star Destroyer would have caused a lot more issues for 2 TIEs. This is all just speculation though, her flying was great.

LThe most impressive thing he really did in that battle was land the shot at the end, but during a couple of moments before the Trench Run Obi-Wan guided him through the Force and like I said earlier Luke wasn’t exactly new to hitting 2 meter targets.

Targeting computers in a futuristic world couldn’t even hit that 2 meter wide mark. It was because of The Force. The throw away line about womp rats means nothing.

The line about Womp Rats enforces Luke’s own ability to make the shot without the Force and his shooting in the dog fight. It’s definitely not just a throwaway line, it makes the shot more believable. The Force did help Luke the most in that situation, I will agree.

imperialscum said:

JediExile said:
Also what story elements and characters were dumb in KotOR2?

Wound in the force, ridiculous power of Nihilus, ridiculous immortality of Sion, etc.

The wound in the Force didn’t bother me at all. The idea of the Force being living is present in all movies, for it to be wounded or for someone to be a wound like Nihlus/Sion/The Jedi Exile fits in pretty well with existing ideas of the Force. I’m pretty sure the idea of the Force being able to be wounded or hurt was explored in Plageuis EU stuff, but I never really got into Plageuis so I can’t confirm that.
As for Nihlus, I’d say he fits pretty well in the game. He isn’t really even a person anymore, he’s kind of just pure dark side Force seeking more power. My only issue with him is his boss fight was kind of lame.
Sion is a real stretch though, that I can agree. I wish his power wasn’t to pretty much hold himself together with the Force, but something less extreme because Sion still is a living being unlike Nihlus who is barely a shadow of his former self. Him letting go of the Force and by extension ending his suffering was well done though.

I mentioned Hoth and Tatooine, two of the most desolate worlds in the game. What is there to take in on a desert planet or on a snowy planet? I agree that Nar Shadda was nice, Korriban was all fun, and Dromund Kaas was really cool, but what is there on those two planets to grab my attention? Just long stretches of nothing.

I am not a fan of Hoth as it looks too “disneyland” (probably the planet I liked the least). I would certainly prefer more realistic look of Hoth, like in ESB. However, I absolutely love Tatooine in SWTOR and it is my favourite planet. It is subjective and I really can’t give you any other explanation than that I find it extremely beautiful.

Interesting that the other three planets you mentioned are my other top favourite planets in SWOTR. Especially Dromund Kaas was really something special and new.

Hoth was a victim of the odd art style Bioware decided to go with (along with Sith armor which I felt became spikier and spikier the more you played). If Hoth was smaller I wouldn’t have a problem with it really, but it’s plagued by an extremely annoying elevator right after docking and then long stretches of white until you get to your destination. Also the snow effect when you reached higher altitudes on Hoth was so poorly done I can’t help but wonder what the fuck Bioware was thinking.
I feel pretty much the same about Tatooine, except it looks much nicer. The canyons and sand look pretty okay, but the long stretches of desert along with filler enemies in between areas leave a lot to be desired. Also the stories on Tatooine were so fucking boring it hurt. At least on Hoth I was hunting down a ghost to suck up while kicking Kaleesh (one of my favorite SW species) ass. Tatooine is just sand people and zombies.
KotOR Tatooine was much better because at least the maps were smaller and you could deaggro the sand people.

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
Point to where it’s hinted about Kylo’s feelings towards Vader

So Kylo is about to undertake the task of killing his father which makes him reassure Supreme Leader Snoke as to the fact that with his training he will not be seduced. Who else do we know that was seduced by the enemy when placed in a life or death situation with a family member? The very person we discover shortly after that Kylo idolizes. Vader

Once again though, the use of one word in a very specific situation can’t be applied to another situation like that. Vader pretty much had a huge hand in bringing the downfall of the Empire by killing the Emperor. While the use of the word “seduced” might imply that’s how the First Order might view those who go back/fall to the light, it doesn’t tell us anything about Vader who is partially responsible for the necessity of a splinter group. Do they hate him for it? Do they focus on his achievements? Do they deny his fall at all and blame the death of the Emperor on Luke? Is it just Kylo Ren that worships him? Why does Kylo Ren exactly worship him? Was it a moment of weakness or a definite betrayal?
So we know how the First Order feels about the act of turning to the light, but nothing about how they feel about Darth Vader. One single word is not enough to enlighten the audience of how the FO feels about Vader.

the Republic disarming 90% of their military and leading Leia to form the Resistance please.

I never said anything about the New Republic disarming 90% of it’s military; I just said they supported the Resistance and that is what I’m going to prove

From the opening crawl:

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

and from Hux’s speech

At this very moment in a system far from here, the New Republic lies to the galaxy while secretly supporting the treachery of the loathsome Resistance!

That’s perfectly fine and all, but that’s not what concerns me. Sure, the Republic (or some members of the New Republic according to Wookiepedia) supported the Resistance, but that doesn’t tell me why there is a Resistance. That doesn’t tell me what happened to the Republic’s army.
These questions matter more than anything. These questions are not answered in the movie, but are answered in some random book or comic.

I never argued that it was explained how he performed so well in a space battle. I was talking about his ability to fly an X-Wing in the first place despite not being part of the Rebels before recently. But I’ll get into his performance too.
A short conversation with Obi-Wan leads to the audience knowing that Luke has become an excellent pilot and Luke’s remarks on the T-16 being similar to the X-Wings and being able to hit ~2 meter Womp Rats on Tatooine alleviates the issue of the audience’s suspension of disbelief being broken during the Trench run. And as SilverWook said, Luke was in real danger during parts of the Trench Run, especially during the end where Vader was about to shoot him down. The only reason Luke is alive is because Han and Chewie came back, something which doesn’t break suspension of disbelief because Han and Chewie are seen becoming attached to Luke/Leia over the course of the film, Han coming back to help save their asses is very in character. It also should be mentioned that Tarkin and Vader were extremely cocky about the Death Star as shown in a few scenes so they didn’t take the Rebel forces as seriously as they should have. All of this helps bit by bit to strengthen the audience’s suspension of disbelief and Luke’s survival in the end.

Even with them saying things to shrink the disbelief factor it doesn’t dissipate it all. Womp rats can’t fire back and the T-16 did give him flying experience but it isn’t the same type of craft as an X-Wing and he didn’t have any difficulty flying. Call Rey a Mary Sue if you want but she at least struggled flying the Falcon and her overall performance was more realistic as she has never flown the Falcon before even though has flown other ships before. And even though he was in danger and was saved the likelihood of a pilot flying in such a circumstance without proper training would still be next to nil. But then again The Force…

Gonna disagree about Rey. She’s not a Mary Sue, but that scene with her “struggling” to fly the Falcon was pretty much her having a rough takeoff and skimming the sand wasn’t much of a struggle. She still managed to escape from 4(?) TIE Fighters with clever evasion skills, by flying through a hollowed out Star Destroyer with little room to move around in, and by flipping over the Falcon so the turret stuck in forward position and completely unable to move was able to perfectly align with the TIE Fighter chasing after them so Finn could shoot it down. That’s much more impressive in my opinion than anything Luke ever did in ANH with his X-Wing. Compensating for another person manning a turret in a completely different part of the ship is nothing less than amazing.
Luke in ANH was almost killed 3 times, was hit twice, and I believe took out only 1-2 TIE Fighters. The most impressive thing he really did in that battle was land the shot at the end, but during a couple of moments before the Trench Run Obi-Wan guided him through the Force and like I said earlier Luke wasn’t exactly new to hitting 2 meter targets. Also you can really just apply the “he/she just used the Force” argument to that moment while you can’t really to Rey doing a flip and lining a perfect shot up for Finn.

imperialscum said:

You only finished one out of eight storylines (even that one was certainly far from the best ones, i.e. Agent, Warrior) so your assessment is very limited in terms of story. It is certainly way better than KOTOR2, which has so many dumb story elements and characters.

Yeah I realize this, but I’m not going to invest another 30-50 hours to complete another character story (or another 20-30 bucks). Also what story elements and characters were dumb in KotOR2?

I don’t care that much about combat aspects to be honest (though I think it was good anyway). As for long travelling, I enjoyed that part as I could take time to enjoy the nice planet/environment design. It is part of experience and makes it more realistic. Though I can see how it could be boring for the usual spoiled impatient gamers.

I mentioned Hoth and Tatooine, two of the most desolate worlds in the game. What is there to take in on a desert planet or on a snowy planet? I agree that Nar Shadda was nice, Korriban was all fun, and Dromund Kaas was really cool, but what is there on those two planets to grab my attention? Just long stretches of nothing.

rolasonian said:

link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Hv7l6QyjI

I don’t hate TFA, but I do have some gripes with it. they’re mostly about the storytelling and the execution, and not so much the plot itself. I’d like to know what you guys think!

Gonna write this response bit by bit while I watch so if my post is a little disorganized.

• I can’t comment on the cinematography, I don’t know much about that. Her being loud while she packs her things and unpacks them seems a little too nitpicky for me though, someone being loud doesn’t necessarily signify power. She’s putting metal against metal, of course it’s going to make loud noises. Her carelessly dumping shit on the ground doesn’t really signify power to me, it seems more like she’s just gotten in a rhythm of doing this every day and is comfortable with letting her scrap be dumped like that.
• Agree with you on the malnourished part, I wish that was a little more present in the film. Not too much of an issue, but would have been something nice to focus on.
• Her owning a speeder doesn’t seem to special to me. Her owning a ship seems like it should be more of an issue. How she got a speeder is a little questionable, but it would be more confusing for her NOT to own something like a speeder to get around the wastes so letting it slide is acceptable. Speeders don’t seem to be some sort of valuable commodity in SW either. But what use would her ship be? Does she ever go offworld? It doesn’t seem like she does, so why does she have it?
• The speeder being in good condition is a fair gripe though, but also a small detail.
• I think the 60 portion scene was wonky too, but for some different reasons
• “Rey should own a bicycle” …words can’t express how dumb this idea is in a movie like Star Wars AND in a desert setting. A speeder is just fine.
• I honestly didn’t notice the issue with the scene where Rey tells BB-8 to follow her into the junkyard. I thought that the scene took place during the same day a little while later, can anyone confirm if this is true or wrong? That really does make her motivations in that scene a little questionable.
• Pronunciation of Jakku is such a small gripe, I wouldn’t have even mentioned this.
• Rey seems to like the Resistance, I don’t see why warping to the Resistance base and warping back would be an issue for her motivations. Does she know how to go through hyperspace though? If she does, how? That’s what would be on my mind to be honest, she has an admirable goal. But can she carry it out?
• Rey seemed enthusiastic about the Resistance to me and after being “marked for death” (according to Finn) I would think she would either develop a stronger dislike for the FO and want to help the Resistance more.
• You’re right about her “gotta get back to Jakku, been away too long” comment on the uh Cantina planet (I don’t think its name was mentioned). It makes it almost seem as if she was dragged along unwillingly and conflicts with her enthusiasm about wanting to help the Resistance. Not much time has even passed since she left so what is she even worried about?
• Agree that her running into the forest was dumb. I really don’t understand what she was trying to do there. I get she was emotional, but just tell Maz “it ain’t me” and outside a little to cool off. No need to run into the middle of the forest.
• Disagree with Finn wanting to help out the Resistance. I have enough issues with him breaking brainwashing in one day, completely changing ideals in the beginning would only make more issues for him.
• Disagree that Starkiller base doesn’t feel big. I don’t think they did anything nearly as cool as the hanger scene from ANH to show scale, but I still felt that it felt bigger than the Death Star. Maybe not planet sized, but bigger.
• Agree that the introduction of it was lackluster
• Agree that it doesn’t feel as threatening as the Death Star, but this reason for me has more to do with how nonsensical the weapon is over not being personally attached to the 5 planets. The reaction shot was a kind of cheap way to make the audience care, I agree.
• Does it not move though? It’s never mentioned in the film, but how do you aim something that doesn’t move? How does the thing manage to shoot across systems too? Details on Starkiller and how it works need to be in the film or else it’s hard to take it seriously.
• Agree that the Resistance having the entire plans of Starkiller was ridiculous and that the Resistance system being targeted was strange. Are they in Republic space? I thought the Hosnian(?) system was the center of the Republic. If that’s the case then is the Resistance location common knowledge? Why target the entire system instead of the base? The Death Star was meant to be used to help rule by fear, what does taking out another 5 planets do? Create more unnecessary fear?
• Agree that the movie is a little too fast paced.
• Disagree with the Stormtrooper reaction time, but agree that pulling out the canons that fast was a little odd. I mean it’s a hangar. It’s not exactly a private area and the preceding scene showed a LOT of troopers in the hangar.
• I actually thought that the scene with Finn and Poe escaping the Star Destroyer needed MORE shooting. Poe mentioned the need to take out as many cannons as they could, was 2 all they needed to take out?
• Agree the jokes were too much, but the boyfriend “joke” actually turned me off for different reasons. Finn just met this girl and it already seems like he’s interested in her just from the way he delivered that line. I really don’t understand their chemistry. Also that scene with the lighter was funny, I don’t understand how you can’t even chuckle with that. Imitation of human behavior is always funny or at the very least cute.
• The remote ball shot was fine, he was searching for medical supplies I believe so it didn’t bother me at all that he’d come across the little ball.
  -Hey, Rey and Luke DON’T stare at each other for 30 seconds. It was 28 last time I counted, get your facts right (still a completely hilarious “WHAT WERE THEY THINKING” scene though)

Pretty okay video, I think you get nitpicky at certain points, but I get where you come from for the most part.

EDIT: Holy FUCK you people get way too heated about movies, calm the hell down.

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Vader was cocky about the Death Star. He was openly dismissive of it in the briefing room scene. Vader did seem to better comprehend than Tarkin that smaller fighters were a bigger threat, when he decided to personally enter the battle.

He was dismissive of it in relation to the power of the Force, but not dismissive of its capabilities all together. But you’re right, Vader never seemed overly confident in the Death Star. What I meant to say was he was overly confident in being able to take down the Rebels, taking only 2 TIE fighters with him out to battle (both which ended up doing nothing if I remember because he insisted he would take care of them himself).
But this is getting way off topic so I think this conversation should end either here or very soon after.

HansiG said:

Discussing about single-player games is hard

Heavily disagree with this idea. When it comes to heavily story based games like the KotOR series (or even non-SW games like Fallout:NV), you can always find tons of conversation. Even in story-light games you can manage to chat a little about the gameplay, levels, etc.

Tobar said:

JediExile said:

Not too much of a fan of TOR, it’s bogged down by poor writing and the MMO format a lot.

Poor writing? TOR’s writing is about on par with the other entries in the series. Even more so with the new Knights of the Fallen Empire storyline. As for the MMO aspect, they recently reworked the game so that the majority of it can be played solo.

Disagree, KotOR 2 blows it away and it’s certainly weaker than KotOR in most ways. Maybe I’m a little biased though. I only finished the Inquistor storyline which was incredibly fun at the end, but such a complete bore in the middle. Going from planet to planet and exploring new locations is great until you realize that pretty much most worldbuilding is limited to incredibly long side quests that are hard to complete along with the main quest. Traveling across the maps is also incredibly boring and I feel that most of my time spent on planets like Hoth and Tatooine was spent on my little speeder going just a tiny bit faster than normal. Then there’s the laughable animation work, the unimaginative quest design, and the fairly boring combat that leads to more issues in the experience. And in recent patches it seems combat has been dumbed down to becoming a cakewalk with all companions acting like healers for some reason.
It’s miles better than it was at launch, but that still isn’t saying much. It isn’t a worthy successor to either KotOR games.

LexX said:

Original thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-Wars-Battlefront/id/17698
Game threads:
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-history-of-Star-Wars-games/id/9255
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/What-is-was-the-best-SW-Game-ever-on-any-platform/id/15456/

Seems people don’t really care for game discussion on here, those threads are pretty dead. A little sad for me because I could sperg out about KotOR 2 and Battlefront games all day.

Lord Haseo said:

Stuff like how Kylo feels about Vader’s turn and the relationship between the Resistence and Republic is in the film. It’s just not spoonfed to the audience though things like R2 waking should have been fully explained because it was a giant plot convenience.

Point to where it’s hinted about Kylo’s feelings towards Vader and the Republic disarming 90% of their military and leading Leia to form the Resistance please.

EDIT:

Luke using a T-16 doesn’t fully explain how he was so good in a space battle. Flying an X-Wing is one thing flying in a dog fight is another.

I never argued that it was explained how he performed so well in a space battle. I was talking about his ability to fly an X-Wing in the first place despite not being part of the Rebels before recently. But I’ll get into his performance too.
A short conversation with Obi-Wan leads to the audience knowing that Luke has become an excellent pilot and Luke’s remarks on the T-16 being similar to the X-Wings and being able to hit ~2 meter Womp Rats on Tatooine alleviates the issue of the audience’s suspension of disbelief being broken during the Trench run. And as SilverWook said, Luke was in real danger during parts of the Trench Run, especially during the end where Vader was about to shoot him down. The only reason Luke is alive is because Han and Chewie came back, something which doesn’t break suspension of disbelief because Han and Chewie are seen becoming attached to Luke/Leia over the course of the film, Han coming back to help save their asses is very in character. It also should be mentioned that Tarkin and Vader were extremely cocky about the Death Star as shown in a few scenes so they didn’t take the Rebel forces as seriously as they should have. All of this helps bit by bit to strengthen the audience’s suspension of disbelief and Luke’s survival in the end.

Scott109 said:

I think that a lot of the questions are probably explained in the novelization. The First Order believes Darth Vader slaying the emperor was a moment of weakness and did not diminish his legacy.

This honestly frustrates me more than anything. I really don’t like it when things are explained in novels or comics or other media that should be in the movie. The reason why Episode IV is my all time favorite Star Wars movie is because every small detail comes together perfectly when I watch it.
I didn’t have to read a book to find out Luke is an excellent pilot and that Luke is able to fly an X-Wing because of his experience with a T-16. It’s right in the movie, fit naturally into scenes so everything comes together.
I apparently do have to read a book to find out details like why the Republic is incapable of defending itself, how the First Order feels about Darth Vader, and other details like that. It’s just lazy world building. What makes me more frustrated though, is apparently there was a deleted scene with Snoke that talked about how the First Order feels about Vader. Why was this removed? It makes sense to add depth to your villains and help the audience understand them more.

I now believe Luke trained Rey before Kylo saved her from the knights of Ren, wiped her memory, and set her on Jakku. That would explain why she subconsciously knows how to perform a Jedi mind trick.

If they can explain Rey’s abilities in the next film, I’ll be happier with her character. I don’t know if I’ll be happier with the film or the idea of a mind wipe. Rey was dropped off on Jakku at what, age 9? So I’m assuming she trained 5 years as a Jedi which makes her Force use a lot more believable in some scenes (Mind Trick), but still somewhat wonky in others (fight with Kylo, grabbing lightsaber before Kylo).

I agree with you on Finn. The idea of a black stormtrooper was cool. John Boyega was a good actor, but J. J. Abrams made Finn too likeable to seem like an authentic renegade stormtrooper. Others may disagree with me on this, but that is just my opinion.

I agree. I had hopes for a much more morally grey character that dealt with the struggles of going traitor. It would have been great for Finn to mellow up over the course of the film instead of entirely at once.

I am surprised you would rate Episode I over Episode III.

I like the political intrigue in it, don’t mind Jar Jar, could care less about Midi-chlorians (never understood the outrage about them), and it has some of the best music in the entire series.
I also get a little nostalgic about TPM. I have a lot of fond memories watching it with my parents and friends when I was younger and the first video game I’ve ever played was the PC version of TPM.
The nostalgia really puts it just a hair above RotS. I guess a more accurate way of ranking the films for me if I put nostalgia aside would be 4 >> 5 > 6 >= 1 = 3 >> 7 > shit > 2.

imperialscum said:

I don’t like that type of games, i.e. games that focus on combat aspects and have almost no storyline. I prefer KOTOR, SWTOR, JK2, JKA, etc.

KotOR and KotOR 2 are pretty fantastic.
Not too much of a fan of TOR, it’s bogged down by poor writing and the MMO format a lot. The Dark Forces/JK series is absolutely fantastic when it comes to dicking around with a lightsaber. That being said, I really hate the level design sometimes in those games. JK2 Nar Shadda was a nightmare for me.

ScoutTN said:

JediExile said:

I’ve been wanting to check it out, but the no space battles thing kind of kills it for me. Also the gameplay looks very barebones compared to Battlefront 2 and I really miss the prequel settings. I also heard Hoth is completely fucked when it comes to staying true to the movies. The shield generator is just a decoration, there are X-Wings and TIEs flying around, and the ion cannon doesn’t do anything.

There’s no game mode that really replicates the Battle of Hoth, Walker Assault is the closest thing to that but if you look at it as its own thing a little more it’s pretty fun. There’s also Tatooine and Endor stages as well, among others.

The Endor and Tatooine maps looked absolutely gorgeous and pretty decent to play on. I don’t think there are any other vanilla maps aside from Tatooine, Endor, and Hoth though. I heard that vanilla Battlefront is very, very light on content compared to BF1 and BF2 which is also a little worrisome for me because I loved that I could have a huge selection of maps from various different planets in BF2. When I looked at BF gameplay, I usually just saw Endor, Hoth, and Tatooine which is more than a little disappointing. Also the choice in heroes DICE decided to implement is really just hilarious to me. From what I understand, Chewbacca and Ben Kenobi still aren’t in the game. Greedo and Nien Nunb (Nien fucking Nunb got in the game before 2 huge characters) were recently added though.

I’ve been wanting to check it out, but the no space battles thing kind of kills it for me. Also the gameplay looks very barebones compared to Battlefront 2 and I really miss the prequel settings. I also heard Hoth is completely fucked when it comes to staying true to the movies. The shield generator is just a decoration, there are X-Wings and TIEs flying around, and the ion cannon doesn’t do anything.

Is there a SW games general thread on here? I’d dig talking about more SW games, especially the KotOR games.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Oh, he’s Asian, alright. I think Frink takes umbrage at you defaulting to describing him by his race.

What’s wrong with that though? He’s the only Asian character in the trailer from what I saw. There’s nothing really wrong with referring to him by his race because that’s all I really know about him. I don’t recognize the actor or the character. I suppose I could say “that guy with a stick”, but who honestly cares?

TV’s Frink said:

JediExile said:

the asian guy

Oh goody.

Is he not asian? If so, my bad.

Honestly I’m a little disappointed in the trailer, but that’s really because my expectations for this movie were kind of goofy.
I was REALLY REALLY hoping for some Star Wars x James Bond action with a rogue-ish Rebel infiltrating the Empire and charming their way to the plans in a very cheesy, yet believable way. This is okay too though, I like action. My only two real complaints about the trailer is that the asian guy with the wooden stick beating up the Stormtrooper fully dressed in armor seemed a little TOO goofy, but maybe it’s a “vibrostick”. Also Forest Whitaker’s speech was really bad. Not the actual contents of the speech, but the delivery was kind of horrible. One small thing I’d like to mention is the “This is a rebellion isn’t it? I rebel.” sounded a little weird to me, but I can’t explain why. I let out a small chuckle when I first heard it.
I really hope this has a decent soundtrack too.

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
in short the Satanist comparison falls flat for me.

Devil worshipers who are way over their head is but one example of people who have changed paths after seeing horrid things done to others by the faction/group they idolize/work for.

Also the situations in which an analogy is made don’t have to be exact but the message someone is trying to convey does.

I’m not arguing that the point you’re trying to make is wrong, but I think it’s wrong to compare Satanists (who choose to worship Satan/act like edgy special snowflakes) to the First Order soldiers (who were abducted as kids and forced to commit horrible acts worse than any goth teen with his little copy of The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey ever could).

I can’t be sure, but I remember Finn watching his friend get shot and I remember Finn watching Poe be interrogated by Kylo. Finn’s shot was the only blaster shot coming from pretty much the opposite direction of the villagers after all and it was easy to line up that shot and where Finn was dragged out from. But no I really can’t as I don’t own the movie yet.

Just because he saw Poe being interrogated doesn’t mean that he would instantly know it was Poe that killed him when there was an active battle going on. I’m sure he’ll find out eventually but it would unrealistic for him to know that immediately.

Fair enough, it just seems odd that Finn should place the lives of people he doesn’t know over the only people he does know.

Everything related to the hand holding

This is really going in circles now so I don’t think it’s worth arguing about anymore. Buuutttt…

DominicCobb said:

Honestly have no idea which side people are on with this hand holding thing but I’d like to just mention something people tend to forget which is Rey’s a loner, or at least fancies herself one. I figure that has more to do with the “don’t hold my hand” than anything else.

This is a really fair point and it’s something I didn’t consider.

It was merely an act

Lord Haseo said:

JediExile said:
Wanting to be a Satanist doesn’t sound like being forced to fight for the First Order. Also most Satanists don’t tend to do animal sacrifices, at least LaVey Satanists don’t. They just like to act edgy.

There are different circumstances overall but some would be satanists see horrid things and end up rethinking their involvement in such a group. Just like Finn.

Satanists don’t tend to steal children from their parents and raise them to commit murder and sacrifice piggies though. Also not all “Satan worshippers” are or bad, LaVey Satanism is really just rebelling against Christianity mixed in with edginess because uh special snowflakes. But that’s getting really off topic, in short the Satanist comparison falls flat for me.

No because the death of the trooper was a very short moment that was never mentioned again and Finn later grouped up with his killer so I assumed that it was a random Stormtrooper. Usually you don’t become friends with your friend’s killer.

And can you point me to anything in the film that points to the fact that Finn knew that Poe killed his friend or that Poe knew that he killed Finn’s friend? You can’t because there Finn doesn’t know that Poe killed his buddy and there were some villagers fighting with the first order when the Jakku Village was being attacked so how could he?

I can’t be sure, but I remember Finn watching his friend get shot and I remember Finn watching Poe be interrogated by Kylo. Finn’s shot was the only blaster shot coming from pretty much the opposite direction of the villagers after all and it was easy to line up that shot and where Finn was dragged out from. But no I really can’t as I don’t own the movie yet.

Also she put herself in that situation, some responsibility lies on her. She chose to chase Finn down, it’s not like BB-8 zapped her until she ran.

I can’t put blame on someone for their ignorance. Especially when there was no way to ascertain the truth.
If there was no way to ascertain the truth and not enough time for the danger to hit Rey, then I don’t think either of them are too responsible for being put in danger. I’ll still stand by Rey being responsible for chasing down and beating Finn though.

And he did let go.

No she shook his hand off.

I’ll need to see the scene again then, but either way it wasn’t much of an issue.

And he could have said run, but honestly Rey was acting a little bit ridiculous in the hut checking on the droid that was virtually spotless after being shot at.

Yelling it would have snapped her back into it.

“Would have” maybe, but not definitely. Safer to not shout and act in my opinion which is what Finn did.

Her gender has nothing to do with Finn grabbing her hand too

Yes because guys hold other guys hands in movies to save them all the fucking time.

Well yeah of course they don’t, that’s just gross dude
But seriously, dragging her out of danger mostly has to do with the fact that she isn’t reacting well to the danger. While girls might get dragged around more in films, this is one scene where it’s completely justified by the situation. I don’t see this being a gender issue.

I’m sure he realizes she’s a big girl after seeing her beat 4 guys up

Actually it was only 2 guys. Still impressive though.

I thought it was 3-4, but maybe that was because of the camera cut back to Finn’s face.

And to be fair, she was kind of acting like a child in that scene.

Elaborate please.

Well you know, when you’re getting shot at or with a wanted man, you tend to recognize danger when the bad guy points and shoots at you. Rey just kinda zoned out and focused on the droid when there was still a clear and present danger. And whizzing (is that the right word to describe this) ion engines right above you.

I meant if she was having more trouble running with her hand being held. Throughout the movie, Finn and Rey ran at about the same pace as each other and in that scene specifically she was dragging behind a little so I don’t see the issue with him holding on a little longer.

It was unnecessary to hold her hand for that long when she’s capable of running herself. That’s the issue.

There is no issue though because Finn never expressed doubt in her abilities. Him holding onto her hand longer than he should have is just him focusing on not getting killed over letting Rey be the strong independent woman who don’t need no really handsome John Boyega. He does it once and that’s it.
I mean this is Star Wars, one of the more progressive series I’ve enjoyed. Women are never really damsels in distress and if they are, they help during their escape instead of being dead weight.

Hey I changed my mind on one thing. Progress. Also I just think it’s fun having talking about Star Wars, I have no intention to change minds or make everybody hate TFA.