Jay

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

The amount of people painting critics with a broad “sexist” brush is at least as overstated as the amount of critics who are sexist.

You could well be right. The problem is that once the sentiment is out there, others start to believe it. And the media is running with the notion because it gets clicks.

Which notion? That all critics are sexist or that all people criticizing sexists are calling all critics sexist?

That critics are “toxic”, with the true origin of their negative feelings being sexism or racism.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

screams in the void said:

true , from a certain point of view …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ao_3jjj_FM

Rumors spread by YouTubers watched only by hardcore fans aren’t the same as Vox/Polygon/etc. articles about the toxic fanbase that get picked up by mainstream media outlets.

Are those articles actually calling the whole fanbase toxic though? Haven’t read.

To their credit, some have used language to draw a line between harassment and genuine critique, but not all.

I’m not concerned only about TLJ critics being misrepresented. No average human will read topics like these and derive any sort of subtlety from the arguments presented. Everyone who calls themselves a Star Wars fan could end up having to defend themselves against this “toxic” label.

https://www.themarysue.com/star-wars-fandom-toxicity/

(Before anyone freaks out over the name, that’s a feminist web site. Take it up with them.)

screams in the void said:

true , from a certain point of view …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ao_3jjj_FM

Rumors spread by YouTubers watched only by hardcore fans aren’t the same as Vox/Polygon/etc. articles about the toxic fanbase that get picked up by mainstream media outlets.

DominicCobb said:

The amount of people painting critics with a broad “sexist” brush is at least as overstated as the amount of critics who are sexist.

You could well be right. The problem is that once the sentiment is out there, others start to believe it. And the media is running with the notion because it gets clicks.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

here’s the tweet btw, not a screenshot: https://twitter.com/DeeGoots/status/944080112869183489

Pretty easy to find her explanation of what it was all about if you’re looking through her timeline
https://twitter.com/DeeGoots/status/1017108818658930688?s=20

Don’t know why some fans are so desperate to cherrypick and take out of context and act like they’re being persecuted.

It’s a group kneejerk reaction to a group character assassination.

How many of these fans do you think have been accused of being sexist because they don’t like TLJ? We’ve seen it right here on this forum; negative criticisms of TLJ and its characters are brushed aside because the critics are possibly suffering from some latent or subconscious sexist tendencies. It’s condescending and unfounded.

As a result, anyone who appears to be mocking fans is going to have a rough time on social media, deserved or not. If you choose to publicly represent yourself as an employee of the content owner and post anything that can be perceived as mocking the fanbase, best have your guard up.

adywan said:

Jay said:
I think he’s subtly trolling. He’s too clever to come at people directly.

The Lucasfilm employee who posted a selfie while drinking from a mug that says “fanboy tears” on it is trolling, though.

Except that Andi wasn’t trolling anything. It was a picture that was posted just after TFA was released, now the anti-TLJ/ Disney brigade got hold of it, erased the date on the original tweet and claimed it was a recent pic of her trolling the anti-TLJ crowd. The fanboy tears thing was all about the death of Han Solo, nothing more.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhzY5gFVQAEiRHx.jpg

She created it for TFA and happily tweeted it again when the TLJ criticisms started.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Jay said:

Rian can bash harassers all he wants, but drawing comparisons to GamerGate and ComicsGate is going to result in the same shitty mess. I don’t want a JediGate.

I’m sure they’ll call it StarGate.

God damn it. How did I miss that?

screams in the void said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Any comparisons to Gamergate are accurate insofar as the harrasers are concerned (though I haven’t seen these comparisons from LFL employees).

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1016392684242550784

GamerGate: another great example of using a minority of harassers to paint an entire community with that wide brush and obscure the original criticisms.

Okay, well was I wrong? I’m not seeing the part in that tweet where he says that anyone who hates his movie is a Gamergate level harraser. He’s pretty spot on in the comparison.

Did you read the preceding tweet that he was responding to? It was about ComicsGate, another supposedly hate-driven campaign that’s being used to paint many comics fans with the same brush as GamerGate, with the usual shitstirring by the usual frauds looking for attention/money like Quinn and Sarkeesian.

Maybe he’s not doing it intentionally, but by drawing the comparisons to what’s going on with Star Wars, I find it hard to believe he doesn’t know who and what he’s inviting into the discussion.

You of course have a typically cynical take on these “gates” that I have no desire to get into you with. Putting that aside, whatever you think of the people bring attacked, there is no reason whatsoever to violently harass. And it’s beyond absurd to suggest that one shouldn’t call out violent harassment just for fear that someone else entirely might come in and paint all criticism with a broad brush. I’m sorry I have more sympathy with those getting death threats than those merely getting supposedly generalized. I don’t know why Rian should have to top toe and ignore the issue completely just because of how other people may or may not respond.

Of course no one should violently harass someone else. Duh.

My point is that the result so far in these “gate” stories is that the harassment becomes the story, the broader fanbase is guilty by association (“toxic fandom”), and the original story that kicked everything off is conveniently forgotten or labeled as conspiracy, while the participants supposedly on the side of social justice go on to build massive social media followings and make money from the whole affair.

Rian can bash harassers all he wants, but drawing comparisons to GamerGate and ComicsGate is going to result in the same shitty mess. I don’t want a JediGate.

The original story that compelled me to kick this thread off was the treatment of Kelly Marie Tran , and lets not hurl insults at people such as “duh” and "panties in a bunch " aye ? seems unbecoming of a moderator imho. And speaking of making money from the whole affair , go to youtube , type in star wars and set the filter to today , on any given day and you can see it’s both sides of the fence . I also have a youtube channel but it is not monetized , nor is my star wars art

Most YouTubers make next to nothing. Even the more popular ones barely make a living from it, and that’s until they get demonitized for offending the wrong person. Only the highest view counts make real money.

I’m referring to people like Sarkeesian using crowdfunding to fleece people while providing shoddy content in return (almost $160K for the Tropes vs Women documentary that misrepresented games and gamers, $25K to start a free Discord server, another $10K to do a video conference with a high school class about feminism, etc.).

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Any comparisons to Gamergate are accurate insofar as the harrasers are concerned (though I haven’t seen these comparisons from LFL employees).

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1016392684242550784

GamerGate: another great example of using a minority of harassers to paint an entire community with that wide brush and obscure the original criticisms.

Jay I know you’ve left the politics thread but you were doing this in regards to liberals all the time.

I’d appreciate a more detailed analysis of how my criticism of liberals in general is comparable to the allegations leveled against the gaming community in GamerGate.

That seems like a detailed waste of time.

If not for me, at least flesh out your point so everyone else understands why the situations are comparable.

It’s an opinion. I paused, then went about my business. More people should do the same.

“More people should do the same” is also an opinion.

[ric-olie.jpg]

And with that, please keep it on topic, everyone. As Frink mentioned, there’s already a ranking thread packed with bunched panties if you’d like to take it there.

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Any comparisons to Gamergate are accurate insofar as the harrasers are concerned (though I haven’t seen these comparisons from LFL employees).

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1016392684242550784

GamerGate: another great example of using a minority of harassers to paint an entire community with that wide brush and obscure the original criticisms.

Jay I know you’ve left the politics thread but you were doing this in regards to liberals all the time.

I’d appreciate a more detailed analysis of how my criticism of liberals in general is comparable to the allegations leveled against the gaming community in GamerGate.

(caveat - have not read the tweet)

People should just start including this in their signature.

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

snooker said:

Collipso said:

i think it’s because people tried really hard to like it at first. i know i did, and it’s now my least favorite star wars film by a country mile.

Attack of the Clones? It’s worse than Attack of the Clones!?

I don’t like TFA and even I paused for a second at that.

Again, there’s plenty of these kinds of hot takes right here. Check out the ranking thread some time.

It’s an opinion. I paused, then went about my business. More people should do the same.

snooker said:

Collipso said:

i think it’s because people tried really hard to like it at first. i know i did, and it’s now my least favorite star wars film by a country mile.

Attack of the Clones? It’s worse than Attack of the Clones!?

I don’t like TFA and even I paused for a second at that.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Any comparisons to Gamergate are accurate insofar as the harrasers are concerned (though I haven’t seen these comparisons from LFL employees).

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1016392684242550784

GamerGate: another great example of using a minority of harassers to paint an entire community with that wide brush and obscure the original criticisms.

Okay, well was I wrong? I’m not seeing the part in that tweet where he says that anyone who hates his movie is a Gamergate level harraser. He’s pretty spot on in the comparison.

Did you read the preceding tweet that he was responding to? It was about ComicsGate, another supposedly hate-driven campaign that’s being used to paint many comics fans with the same brush as GamerGate, with the usual shitstirring by the usual frauds looking for attention/money like Quinn and Sarkeesian.

Maybe he’s not doing it intentionally, but by drawing the comparisons to what’s going on with Star Wars, I find it hard to believe he doesn’t know who and what he’s inviting into the discussion.

You of course have a typically cynical take on these “gates” that I have no desire to get into you with. Putting that aside, whatever you think of the people bring attacked, there is no reason whatsoever to violently harass. And it’s beyond absurd to suggest that one shouldn’t call out violent harassment just for fear that someone else entirely might come in and paint all criticism with a broad brush. I’m sorry I have more sympathy with those getting death threats than those merely getting supposedly generalized. I don’t know why Rian should have to top toe and ignore the issue completely just because of how other people may or may not respond.

Of course no one should violently harass someone else. Duh.

My point is that the result so far in these “gate” stories is that the harassment becomes the story, the broader fanbase is guilty by association (“toxic fandom”), and the original story that kicked everything off is conveniently forgotten or labeled as conspiracy, while the participants supposedly on the side of social justice go on to build massive social media followings and make money from the whole affair.

Rian can bash harassers all he wants, but drawing comparisons to GamerGate and ComicsGate is going to result in the same shitty mess. I don’t want a JediGate.

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Jay said:

SilverWook said:

There’s a big difference between merely saying This movie sucks! and taking it out on the people who made it. When Star Trek: The Motion Picture came out, Trekkers were not screaming for Robert Wise’s head. Even the late Harlan Ellison wrote a polite, but negative review in Starlog. And this is the guy who often took potshots at Gene Roddenberry the way Stephen King hates on Kubrick.

Social media is the big factor here. It’s possible rotten fans may have always been with us. I imagine there were letters even Cinefanstatique magazine declined to print back in the day. There was that one SW blogger fellow who’s been blocked by Dave Prowse and John Williams on twitter for their behavior. Seriously, what issues could anyone possibly have with them?

There are ridiculous trolls, of course. That’s not what I’m talking about here. There are legitimate criticisms being levied against TLJ that are being attributed to trolls in order to hand-wave them away.

Think about what you’re saying. “[T]hat one SW blogger fellow” isn’t representative of half the fanbase. The people who harassed Tran aren’t representative of half the fanbase. It’s become very easy to paint anyone dissatisfied with TLJ using that broad brush, though.

There are Lucasfilm employees on Twitter right now trolling Star Wars fans and comparing the situation to GamerGate. Just absurd. If Twitter had existed back when Lucas released the SEs and he posted his famous quote about the movies being his and not the fans’ (paraphrasing), what do you think the result would be? If the creators are going to participate in social media and actively berate their critics, the social media mob is going to descend upon them.

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TFA receives an overwhelmingly positive response from fans and everything is cool.

Are you new here?

Are you new to the internet?

This forum doesn’t encompass the entirety of the conversation, nor is it even a microcosm representative of the entirety of Star Wars fandom. It’s a subset of a subset. The discussion here may have become contentious, but in the rest of the world, by and large, the response to TFA was overwhelmingly positive.

That blogger fellow got into the credentialed podcast area at Celebration, which indicates to me Lucasfilm doesn’t vet these people very well. I wasn’t aware of Lucasfilm employees trolling fans, or do you mean Rian Johnson?

To say that Rian Johnson is trolling fans is to have a very loose definition of the word.

I think he’s subtly trolling. He’s too clever to come at people directly.

The Lucasfilm employee who posted a selfie while drinking from a mug that says “fanboy tears” on it is trolling, though.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Any comparisons to Gamergate are accurate insofar as the harrasers are concerned (though I haven’t seen these comparisons from LFL employees).

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1016392684242550784

GamerGate: another great example of using a minority of harassers to paint an entire community with that wide brush and obscure the original criticisms.

Okay, well was I wrong? I’m not seeing the part in that tweet where he says that anyone who hates his movie is a Gamergate level harraser. He’s pretty spot on in the comparison.

Did you read the preceding tweet that he was responding to? It was about ComicsGate, another supposedly hate-driven campaign that’s being used to paint many comics fans with the same brush as GamerGate, with the usual shitstirring by the usual frauds looking for attention/money like Quinn and Sarkeesian.

Maybe he’s not doing it intentionally, but by drawing the comparisons to what’s going on with Star Wars, I find it hard to believe he doesn’t know who and what he’s inviting into the discussion.

DominicCobb said:

Any comparisons to Gamergate are accurate insofar as the harrasers are concerned (though I haven’t seen these comparisons from LFL employees).

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1016392684242550784

GamerGate: another great example of using a minority of harassers to paint an entire community with that wide brush and obscure the original criticisms.

SilverWook said:

There’s a big difference between merely saying This movie sucks! and taking it out on the people who made it. When Star Trek: The Motion Picture came out, Trekkers were not screaming for Robert Wise’s head. Even the late Harlan Ellison wrote a polite, but negative review in Starlog. And this is the guy who often took potshots at Gene Roddenberry the way Stephen King hates on Kubrick.

Social media is the big factor here. It’s possible rotten fans may have always been with us. I imagine there were letters even Cinefanstatique magazine declined to print back in the day. There was that one SW blogger fellow who’s been blocked by Dave Prowse and John Williams on twitter for their behavior. Seriously, what issues could anyone possibly have with them?

There are ridiculous trolls, of course. That’s not what I’m talking about here. There are legitimate criticisms being levied against TLJ that are being attributed to trolls in order to hand-wave them away.

Think about what you’re saying. “[T]hat one SW blogger fellow” isn’t representative of half the fanbase. The people who harassed Tran aren’t representative of half the fanbase. It’s become very easy to paint anyone dissatisfied with TLJ using that broad brush, though.

There are Lucasfilm employees on Twitter right now trolling Star Wars fans and comparing the situation to GamerGate. Just absurd. If Twitter had existed back when Lucas released the SEs and he posted his famous quote about the movies being his and not the fans’ (paraphrasing), what do you think the result would be? If the creators are going to participate in social media and actively berate their critics, the social media mob is going to descend upon them.

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TFA receives an overwhelmingly positive response from fans and everything is cool.

Are you new here?

Are you new to the internet?

This forum doesn’t encompass the entirety of the conversation, nor is it even a microcosm representative of the entirety of Star Wars fandom. It’s a subset of a subset. The discussion here may have become contentious, but in the rest of the world, by and large, the response to TFA was overwhelmingly positive.

TFA receives an overwhelmingly positive response from fans and everything is cool.

TLJ receives mixed reviews and it’s because of the social media swamp and “toxic fans”.

I’m having trouble buying into this narrative. What happened in the 2 years between these films that turned a chunk of the fanbase rotten?

Nothing. Nothing at all. Star Wars fans are the same fans they’ve always been. TLJ is a divisive movie; it has a strong perspective. If it were as derivative and formulaic as TFA, we wouldn’t be debating the toxicity of the fanbase. We’d be skipping along, arm in arm, on our way to Episode IX, with some of us grumbling along the way, just like we did with TFA.

Collipso said:

Jay said:

Agreed that some female points of view would be refreshing.

A bit all over the place, but a passionate take:
https://youtu.be/FQTornBY4Ig

More organized:
https://youtu.be/2LXZJy0NEck

Serious rants:
https://youtu.be/0jY010oKl7c
https://youtu.be/FQTornBY4Ig

jay, you linked the same video twice. the second one under ‘serious rants’ is the same one as the ‘all over the place’ one.

Oops, thanks. Fixed. First video should be this: https://youtu.be/Kc3H9hYh6KQ

Agreed that some female points of view would be refreshing.

A bit all over the place, but a passionate take:
https://youtu.be/Kc3H9hYh6KQ

More organized:
https://youtu.be/2LXZJy0NEck

Serious rants:
https://youtu.be/0jY010oKl7c
https://youtu.be/FQTornBY4Ig

I already have an HHKB Professional 2, which fits quite nicely on top of my laptop, but external keyboards are awkward to use away from a desk.

I’d already stopped relying on discs by the time they ditched the optical drive, so I don’t miss it at all.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

Jay said:

I do all my work on a 2015 MacBook Pro.

I wish I had one of those. I have a 2012 15", last model with the optical drive. Have loved it, but has been acting out lately. I don’t want one of those P.O.S. low-travel keyboards or to pay for the gimmick bar, though. Hopefully it can make it until the next-gen model is released, whenever that may finally be.

I’m not a fan of the new keyboards either, but I think we’re stuck with them. I had a 2010 previously, which probably had the same keyboard as yours. Pretty nice to type on. The 2015 keyboard is shallower than that, but still better than the latest models. Not a problem at my desk because I use an external keyboard, but when lounging on the couch or traveling, it’s annoying.

I don’t mind losing the optical drive, but Apple’s obsession with thinner/lighter is wrecking core functionality now.

DominicCobb said:

I can’t comment on the reaction to TPM at the time, because I was a kid and only knew other kids opinions and we all liked it… but I do know, once I finally started going on the internet, the discourse about the film was overwhelmingly negative.

Honestly it still kinda is, but I feel like there’s now a pretty significant section of PT lovers out there (mostly people who saw them when they were kids too, if I had to guess).

I saw TPM with my roommate and fellow Star Wars fan in college and both of us walked out of the theater having had a good time. We loved any scene with a lightsaber in it, brushed off Jar-Jar as kid stuff that wasn’t the end of the world, and had a good laugh at the Tusken Raiders during the pod race.

It’s not perfect by any stretch, but at least I enjoyed myself.

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

The sexual harassment aspects of Title IX didn’t just protect women in college. I don’t like sharing personal stories so I’ll keep it brief, but I had to seek assistance from campus resources for help dealing with it when it happened to me. Anyway, your summary of Title IX is totally uninformed.

I never said it only affected, or was only meant for, women, or that the scope of the Obama admin’s recommendations was entirely bad. Their recommendations have, however, proven destructive for young men (and even women) accused of sexual assault by denying them due process. Placing the onus on educational institutions’ staff – who aren’t professional investigators – to conduct what should be a criminal investigation and issue punitive action is the wrong approach.

I’m sorry for what happened to you, regardless.

It’s no big deal, but the funny thing is that they did actually did very little. It took at least a month of pestering from me just to move me to a new roommate down the hall and no one was punished at all. It makes no sense to me to scrap the entire thing for no reason other than that there are some unfair and unjust cases. Wouldn’t rational reform be the proper option?

One last reply so as not to be rude…yes, revising the guidelines that weren’t working would’ve been sufficient. Unfortunately, Trump is a sledgehammer, not a scalpel. His general approach of “regulation is bad” and “erase Obama’s legacy” prevailed.

Built this years ago when the 4790K was new and have only upgraded the video card since then (GTX 970 originally). Strictly for gaming.

Windows 10 Pro
Corsair 250D Mini-ITX case
Intel i7 4790K (OC)
Corsair H100i V2 water cooler
Asus Z97I-Plus motherboard
Asus GTX 1080 Ti Turbo
16GB RAM
480GB M.2 SSD
Asus 34" ultrawide (3440x1440)

It was a pain in the ass squeezing it all in that tiny case, though. Given all the hassles of small case builds and the costs of parts these days, I think I’m going with something prebuilt for my next gaming rig. Maybe this, with the idea that I’ll be doing all my gaming from the couch in my living room:

https://www.corsair.com/us/en/one

I do all my work on a 2015 MacBook Pro with an external Dell 27" 5K display.

moviefreakedmind said:

The sexual harassment aspects of Title IX didn’t just protect women in college. I don’t like sharing personal stories so I’ll keep it brief, but I had to seek assistance from campus resources for help dealing with it when it happened to me. Anyway, your summary of Title IX is totally uninformed.

I never said it only affected, or was only meant for, women, or that the scope of the Obama admin’s recommendations was entirely bad. Their recommendations have, however, proven destructive for young men (and even women) accused of sexual assault by denying them due process. Placing the onus on educational institutions’ staff – who aren’t professional investigators – to conduct what should be a criminal investigation and issue punitive action is the wrong approach.

I’m sorry for what happened to you, regardless.

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

Title IX is trash though and universities should never have been put on the hook for investigating and punishing students for sex crimes. I’m not crying over that at all.

Of course you aren’t.

Why “of course”?

It’s cool. I don’t take his posts seriously anymore.

I’m bowing out of this thread now.

Ahmed Best didn’t deserve the hate he got back then (he played the part he was given and gave George what he wanted) and mocking his depression is wrong. The dude dealt with insane levels of criticism, from both fans and the media.

https://twitter.com/ComicPerch/status/1015813664497065984

When you put time and energy into creating something and the world tells you it sucks, it’s devastating.