Jay

dahmage said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

This happens to me then there are lots of pictures in a thread.

this. i suppose it is probably an issue of the webpage not telling the browser how much space a picture will take up (leaving that to the picture, which doesn’t load quickly in all cases) and the browser doing the jump to the pre-pic landing spot.

I think it has always done this, unless possessed is experiencing something different.

having a different way to deal with images in posts would probably be the only fix.

I’ve been thinking about adding some script to load images as users scroll rather than on initial page load because it would reduce mobile data usage and increase overall page load speeds considerably. It would also help with this issue.

https://github.com/jaysylvester/comitium/issues/176

NeverarGreat said:

TV’s Frink said:

“Worrying” (maybe too strong a term) about this kind of stuff is also weird.

I’m not too concerned with the time which passes within the movie - ANH took place in less than a week as well. But the bigger issue is the lack of a time jump between movies, which is where you can hide a lot of skill progression.

Agreed. This is a technique Johnson should have kept from the previous trilogies. Abrams made it tough with TFA’s ending, but not impossible.

I still don’t like Rey using mind tricks as quickly as she did, but I could accept TLJ Rey more readily if some time had passed after TFA.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week.

Probably doesn’t matter to the overall point but do we actually have something in the movie that indicates it’s been such a short period of time?

Fair question, but I wouldn’t feel any better about it if it were a month or two.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week. She may not be enlightened yet, but she’s apparently achieved enough focus and determination in a few days that her powers are only lacking in comparison to previous Jedi by mere degrees; a bit of finesse is all that truly separates her from the greats who came before.

To be clear I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is a Jedi’s powers are not what defines their mastery, or at least in in my opinion shouldn’t be. (To make a literal comparison, Anakin is implied to be possibly the most powerful Jedi in the order during ROTS, but he is not granted the rank of master.)

Whatever power in the force Rey has demonstrated is far less important to her status as a strong Jedi than factors like wisdom, knowledge, and discipline. Despite the raw strength she’s exhibited, her technique is never anything but messy. Her hard work and determination lets her be especially in tune with the force, but she doesn’t have the command of it yet that a Jedi would. She may have the spirit of a true Jedi, but she (again) is not a Jedi yet. She’s got some growing to do.

All of this is beside the fact that anyone who says TLJ makes Rey out to be the “best and most powerfulest Jedi ever” is completely ignoring the fact that the film goes out of its way to give the most impressive and impactful bit of force usage in the entire series to not Rey, but Luke… and then goes on to imply that he will live on as potentially the most legendary and inspirational Jedi ever. But Rey lifted some rocks though so they’re forcing her seem like she’s the bestest.

I think when people talk about her being the most powerful Jedi ever, they don’t mean Rey is literally Luke’s superior at this point in time, but that she’s progressed much farther much faster than anyone before her, and given the pace at which she’s improving, it wouldn’t take much longer for her to surpass previous Jedi. It’s about the calendar time she’s taking to achieve her powers, not a direct power-to-power comparison.

Well if the complaint is that she could one day after the movies become the best Jedi ever, I don’t get the complaint. Why not?

The complaint, at least my complaint, is that “one day” is probably next Thursday, maybe Friday at the absolute latest.

Possessed said:

Yeah but I mean Luke starting picking things up pretty darn quick once he started learning too, much of it on his own. Perhaps not quite as quick as Rey, although I’m not prepared for the massive headache that comes from analyzing the passage of time in star wars movies. But I don’t think it’s totally incomparable.

I’ve kind of been over this already. Luke’s Force powers in ANH amount to “seeing” the remote with the blast shield down and some guidance while targeting the ventilation shaft with the torpedo. That’s all.

In ESB, he struggles to pull the lightsaber to his hand on Hoth, requiring him to pause and truly concentrate on the task. And even after Yoda’s training, Luke is still no match for Vader. While he puts some impressive abilities to use thanks in part to his training, it’s a lopsided fight and he loses badly.

My understanding is that the time between ANH and ESB is years. Rey has had maybe a few weeks at most. On its surface, does this really sound comparable?

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week.

Probably doesn’t matter to the overall point but do we actually have something in the movie that indicates it’s been such a short period of time?

Fair question, but I wouldn’t feel any better about it if it were a month or two.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week. She may not be enlightened yet, but she’s apparently achieved enough focus and determination in a few days that her powers are only lacking in comparison to previous Jedi by mere degrees; a bit of finesse is all that truly separates her from the greats who came before.

To be clear I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is a Jedi’s powers are not what defines their mastery, or at least in in my opinion shouldn’t be. (To make a literal comparison, Anakin is implied to be possibly the most powerful Jedi in the order during ROTS, but he is not granted the rank of master.)

Whatever power in the force Rey has demonstrated is far less important to her status as a strong Jedi than factors like wisdom, knowledge, and discipline. Despite the raw strength she’s exhibited, her technique is never anything but messy. Her hard work and determination lets her be especially in tune with the force, but she doesn’t have the command of it yet that a Jedi would. She may have the spirit of a true Jedi, but she (again) is not a Jedi yet. She’s got some growing to do.

All of this is beside the fact that anyone who says TLJ makes Rey out to be the “best and most powerfulest Jedi ever” is completely ignoring the fact that the film goes out of its way to give the most impressive and impactful bit of force usage in the entire series to not Rey, but Luke… and then goes on to imply that he will live on as potentially the most legendary and inspirational Jedi ever. But Rey lifted some rocks though so they’re forcing her seem like she’s the bestest.

I think when people talk about her being the most powerful Jedi ever, they don’t mean Rey is literally Luke’s superior at this point in time, but that she’s progressed much farther much faster than anyone before her, and given the pace at which she’s improving, it wouldn’t take much longer for her to surpass previous Jedi. It’s about the calendar time she’s taking to achieve her powers, not a direct power-to-power comparison.

My interpretation of a Jedi’s powers has always been that they grow as they approach mastery, and that mastery is attained based on the effort they put into both physical training and meditation. Regardless of one’s innate Force sensitivity, practicing mindfulness over some meaningful period of time was the key not just to their emotional growth, but physical capabilities and tricks like mind-reading.

If meditation is a requirement for building one’s power, as I believe it is, then Rey’s rapid advancement doesn’t make sense given her lack of meaningful time for meditation and can only be explained through plot devices like psychic ability transference, which frankly sounds like nonsense to me. You mention her hard work and determination letting her be in tune with the Force; what and why, exactly? The things she did to survive on Jakku? No doubt she worked hard, but I don’t see how a good work ethic on its own, primarily put into practice by salvaging parts, translates into a connection to the Force that allows her to hold her own against much more experienced students of the Force.

I think it’s entirely likely Abrams wanted people swinging lightsabers at each other in TFA, and since his cliffhanger ending rested upon Luke being a no-show until the final scene, Kylo needed an opponent who could at least hold their own. Enter Rey with her microwave dinner Force powers and the touched upon, but never explained, potentially Force-sensitive Finn.

Mocata said:

Jay said:

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

I don’t disagree. But I also don’t see what you mean, the finale of ROTJ is nothing like what happened so far in the ST outside Luke’s story.

Not exactly sure what you mean here. If you’re saying I’m comparing Rey’s situation in TLJ to Luke’s in RotJ, I don’t believe I did, at least not directly.

My point is that those saying a Jedi’s powers come from achieving a certain state of mind (with which I agree) have to accept that Rey has achieved at least enough “zen” to become as powerful as any Jedi to come before her, all in about a week. She may not be enlightened yet, but she’s apparently achieved enough focus and determination in a few days that her powers are only lacking in comparison to previous Jedi by mere degrees; a bit of finesse is all that truly separates her from the greats who came before.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

I guess I just don’t mind it that much. It’s more believable that she figured all these things out after contact with Kylo that it is Anakin can flight a Naboo starfighter.

Anakin was the only human capable of pod racing (“He’s a credit to your race.”). Figuring out how to pilot a starfighter after the autopilot guided him out of the hangar and into space shouldn’t be that much of a hassle. Of course, I don’t believe they ever showed him landing it 😉

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

But again, Rey’s not a Jedi yet. That’s the whole point being made. Whether or not she’s got the high level powers already, she hasn’t yet reached that zen point that Luke does at the end of ROTJ.

No, she hasn’t officially been anointed a Jedi, but she’s 90% of the way there and it only took about a week. If it turns out she was trained as a child and had those memories locked away (perhaps for her own safety as was posited in this thread), fine, but I think TFA and TLJ suffer as a result of her extended arc and rapid rise in power.

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

SilverWook said:

That sounds an awful lot like the “it was all a dream” season of Dallas. Although a lame retcon, it was probably the only way to bring back Patrick Duffy after they killed off his character without long lost twins or clones coming into it. 😉

Thanks, that was probably it. I was young and my memory is foggy, but I had the impression that it was a big deal and not some run-of-the-mill daily soap nonsense. Granny was pissed.

yotsuya said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Rey has mastered every skill that every Jedi in the first 6 films exhibited. She did most of this within 30 minutes of having the Force Awakened.
-Force pull
-Mind reading
-Manipulation
-Levitation of objects
-Seeing the Future
-Mastery of lightsaber

Other than Force push,Force Ghost and this new projection thing Luke did, I can’t think of anything we have seen a JEDI do before that she hasn’t done.

And it is ok if she ends up being the greatest force user of all time. It is ok if she does new and exciting things with the Force. But as a viewer, in my opinion, she has to have ‘earned it’ narratively somehow. Either through a forgotten past or some other yet unseen reasonable explanation. Otherwise, using the Force isn’t a practice, a focus or a skill. It is a super power. And Rey is essentially Shazaam learning what new things she can do because she said the words “The Force”.

using the force for targeting
force communication
force jumping
force running
surviving poison gas
force choking
putting someone to sleep
catching force lighting
deflecting blaster fire
… just to list the ones that come to mind.

Spoiler alert: the first 15 minutes of Episode IX will be Rey watching an OT/PT highlight reel to teach her the powers she’s still missing. It’ll be set up like an episode of MST3K, with Rey mimicking what she sees on screen and laughing at Luke’s ESB training montage.

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

And let’s not forget that the Jedi Academy is a school. They come as children and the Jedi have to teach them literally everything. Reading, writing, math, science, history, as well as the Jedi powers, Jedi code, law, diplomacy, lightsaber combat, hand to hand combat, leadership, tactics, technology, piloting, driving, etc. Being a Jedi in the Old Republic is so much more than lifting rocks. But when you start ticking things off, a lot of that can be learned elsewhere. In the PT we never see Jedi powers taught. We see some younglings practicing with a lightsaber (an indication of how elementary what Luke is learning in ANH is) and we see two padawan accompanying their masters on missions. By that stage they have learned all their classroom lessions and are doing their apprenticeship in the field. In the OT we see one lesson with Obi-wan for deflecting blaster bolts and then lessons with Yoda levitating rocks (perfecting what Luke had done earlier in the Wampa cave without any instruction). That is all we know. Anything else is guess work. Rey went to Luke expecting training to manage and perfect her use of what she had learned from Kylo Ren, but Luke only gave her the basics. So she took the texts and left. Oh, from kind of a throw away line, evidently Ben Solo was the same type of natural she is.

So I really don’t understand this insistance that this violates the previous 6 films. I also don’t understand how it is Rian Johnson’s fault when the character was created this by JJ Abrams. Rian gave her a nice arc about facing her parentage and being rejected by Luke and accepted by Kylo, but she can’t join Kylo. He did not give her a bunch of new force powers on top of what she already had.

What Luke and the baby Jedi are learning is how to trust your extrasensory perception/prediction abilities. This is what allows Anakin to succeed at Podracing, and presumably what makes Luke such a gifted pilot as well. That is the one ability which is established as present at a young age. This is why I can see why Rey would be so good at piloting the Falcon - it’s an ability that requires you only sense the Force, and allow it to guide your actions with regards to self-preservation. This is also why I don’t think it’s crazy that Leia was able to do what she did in TLJ.

But telekinesis and mind control? These are things which we have only seen Force users do after years of effort. And I do think that the Wampa cave was meant to show that Luke taught himself some Jedi tricks in the years between movies, probably with some ghost Obi-wan help.

I don’t think anyone’s saying that Rian is primarily at fault for these issues. He merely continued in JJ’s trajectory, which makes me think that there’s some sort of explanation coming in 9, though the individual movies should stand on their own.

Abrams handed Johnson a mess in TFA. TLJ is not only a worthy successor to TFA, but a far better film overall, even if I don’t like what it did to the characters or think it fits well within Star Wars canon. The fan outrage that’s currently being slung in Johnson’s direction should be aimed squarely at Abrams.

My guess is Abrams had absolutely no planned trajectory for any of the arcs he established in VII. His previous work demonstrates he cares more about hitting you in the feels than telling a coherent story with a satisfying conclusion. The first season of his TV shows are great at setting up the universe, but they go off the rails after that.

Any solution they come up with for Rey will feel like a retcon because VII and VIII don’t stand on their own. It’ll feel like an excuse—a cop-out one makes up on the fly—rather than a reason. One of my fondest memories of my grandmother is her watching her favorite soap opera (can’t remember which one it was), and upon finding out everything crazy that had happened to the main character was all a dream, she sat straight up in her chair and yelled at the TV. “Oh come on! Give me a break!” She was one angry fangirl that day. Pretty sure that’s going to be me watching IX on Netflix in 2020.

Chewielewis said:

I think the films can definitely square up.

ROTJ Luke learns how to be a Jedi, makes his Jedi academy to work as he sees fit. Doesn’t even read the Jedi Texts. This much we can deduce.

Snoke comes along, creates the FO by rekindling the ashes of the Empire. Starts working his influence over Lukes pupils. Where does Snoke come from? We likely know as much as the characters do.

Luke notices something odd in Ben, he reaches out and feels the dark side, the emperor, vader, everything he fought in the past but stronger than he ever encounterd. He freaks out, grabs his lightsaber. Why? because fear leads to hate ect ect. Its a moment of weakness where he lets his guard down and let the darkside drive his actions (and if you think this is out of character, you need to rewatch ROTJ, fear is exactly what makes hm go a darkside against his father).

So after making a catastrophic mistake he flies to the island and becomes a recluse, realising that his own ways were not good enough to fight the dark side. Just like Yoda and Obi-wan. Not making much attempt to stop the Empire/FO on their own are they.

I really don’t see any conflict here, it all makes narrative sense to me.

If you’re looking for reasons why it doesn’t work then you’re going to have to go all the way back to 77 because the whole thing asks for a whopping great big heap of suspension of disbelieve to believe any of it.

Again, I’m not saying it doesn’t work. I’m saying I think it’s terrible.

The story, the characters, all of it. It’s all terrible.

Anchorhead said:

Chewielewis said:

The fact is RJ went out of his way to make a Star Wars film that challenged everything we know about star wars. About the force, the Jedi, the roles of heroes and villains, politics and economics. It’s very deliberate. And for that reason some people hate it, others think its the best film since Empire.

I think all these nit picks about Jedi training and power levels and admirals not sharing plans with captains are kind of missing the big picture.

Yes, RJ deliberately went out of his way to challenge established canon. The fact that there is a large portion of the fan base arguing about it doesn’t mean they don’t get it, it means they don’t like it.

It’s this condescension that I have a problem with. “You just don’t get it.” No, I get it, especially since you’ve kindly explained it to me many times over. I just think it’s crap.

Chewielewis said:

Anchorhead said:
For a great many fans, adding to the story is preferable to rewriting it.

Which as absolutly not what TLJ does. Nothing is rewriten.

We’re just looking at it from a different perspective. It’s the film that finally says Hey maybe the Jedi were wrong. Maybe the status quo of the galaxy needs to change if we need to truly stop the empire. Maybe the way to win is not through heroes and warriors but ordinary people like Rose and Finn and that kid with the broom. And the film ends with both sides being right, yes the Jedi sucked but they dont have to. Yeah one guy swinging a laser sword cant bring down the First order, but the idea or the legend of him could.

I liken it to Captain America Civil war, which challenges the ideas around Heros and their place in society. Should Superhero’s be able to do what they want in order to solve the worlds problems or should they be accountable as part of society. And it ends not on a Definitive answer but more of a “Yes, but”. Like all good questions there are no black and white answers.

If you think TLJ is the first film to suggest maybe the Jedi were on the wrong path, you’ve forgotten some key scenes in the prequels. Yoda made his concerns about the state of the Jedi Order clear in AotC—particularly as it relates to the cockiness/arrogance of the younger Jedi—and comes right out and says the prophecy may have been misread.

After the fall of the Jedi due to their own arrogance, Yoda spends decades on Degobah meditating. After hesitating to train Luke, what does he teach Luke to do with his powers? Pass on what you have learned. He didn’t say “rebuild the Jedi” or “start recruiting kids”. It’s the sequels that brought us the idea of Luke starting a school and kicking off a new Jedi Order based on some sacred Jedi texts. If anything, by the end of RotJ, Luke learned there were different ways to approach problems aside from those his masters espoused. That’s why I find TLJ’s take on Luke so disappointing. There was no reason he had to represent the old way of doing things; he could’ve just as easily been the start of the new way you describe. Maybe Rey comes into it with a bunch of crazy Jedi stories in her head and Luke sits her down and says, look kid, regardless of the stories you’ve heard, the Jedi got some things wrong, and we need to try something different this time.

In the end, despite all the questions you raise about classical heroes and their roles, they did stop the Empire. The Rebellion won the war and Luke saved his father. And yet, for reasons nobody has explained, the galaxy ends up with Empire II—excuse me, the First Order—and they’re right back in the same situation again. The Jedi Order had been wiped out decades before and Luke had barely started training new Jedi, so clearly the Jedi “sucking” weren’t the issue this time. So where did it all come from? Maybe ordinary, everyday people get it wrong sometimes and they occasionally need a hero to come in and clean up the mess. And maybe audiences find that more compelling than Broom Boy.

Part of creativity comes from dealing with constraints, and when telling a story, the constraints include the rules of the world you’ve built. TLJ tosses many of those constraints aside, and while it may have resulted in an interesting exercise in filmmaking and storytelling, it resulted in a Star Wars movie that many of us find unrecognizable and unpalatable.

I wish Johnson had just been given his trilogy without touching the original saga. He could’ve told his own story about characters on the other side of the galaxy in some unexplored region who developed their own way of using the Force, minus all the Jedi and Sith baggage.

Chewielewis said:

DrDre said:

Yes, except for the fact that Anakin went through a decade of Jedi training, and still failed to become the Jedi, he was supposed to be. The prequels put the entire concept of believing in prophesies in doubt, and reinforce the idea, that allways in motion is the future.

Sure, but like Rey he was pretty gifted when we first met him.

I think there is a question that people aren’t asking, which is “What exactly is Jedi training”. I don’t think Jedi training is about moving rocks or lightsaber technique. I think Jedi training is more about indoctrination. The Jedi are a religion, and like most religions, you have to start them young so they understand the world they way you need them to, because Jedi in the Jedi Order are basically celebate monks. Thats why the council rejected Anakin, too old to indoctrinate, and they were right. The jedi don’t spend 10 years learning how to fight and move rocks. Their lessons are basically learning about the force and how to understand it better, but understand it the way the Jedi want them to.

You could also say that things like moving rocks or deflecting laser bolts are pretty much the Jedi traning 101, in EpII we see kids deflecting blaster bolts, they probably can lift brooms as well with not much traning. Anakin didn’t need training to use his force powers to Fly Pods. Luke didn’t get much training to learn how to grab his saber and to use the force to blow up the death star.

Some good points about Jedi training and indoctrination, and I agree with you to a certain extent. However, everything we saw in the first six films indicates that guidance and meditation are required in order to maximize a Jedi’s powers and fully exploit the Force.

The extent of Anakin’s emergent powers in TPM is his ability to see into the future and anticipate things, and only to the point that it makes him appear to have superhuman reflexes. That’s it.

The extent of Luke’s powers in ANH are a few minutes against a remote where he “reaches out” and senses it, and the trench run where he’s told to “let go” and allow the Force to guide him while targeting the exhaust port. That’s all we got from Luke in his first go-round. He didn’t blow up the Death Star with the Force.

In TLJ, Rey successfully controls a trooper’s mind and holds her own in a lightsaber duel against a much more powerful, albeit injured, opponent, despite never having used a lightsaber before.

Lukes training in Degoba wasn’t about lifting rocks, he could do that without much of an issue, but to understand why he could lift rocks. What he needed to learn about the force and how it connects to the universe.

Luke failed to extract his X-Wing from the swamp and didn’t complete his training, and while he demonstrated some impressive maneuvers in his fight with his father, Vader toyed with him until he got his hand cut off and was forced to surrender. Whether that was a function of a lack of combat training or lack of proper meditation—probably both—he wasn’t adequately prepared.

After receiving a few lessons, Rey assaulted her teacher and got the drop on him with a lightsaber, then fought Snoke’s guards alongside Kylo and lifted a bunch of boulders like they weren’t even there, thus saving the day.

Is Rey faster and more powerful than Luke and Anakin? sure, but I don’t see this being without precident.

Not without precedent, but without training?

Rey gets her trainig the same way you teach a child to swim, throw them in the deep end. Kylo’s probing of her mind taught her how to fight back, which taught her how to influence that storm troopers mind. She’s as powerful as the narrative needs her to be. It would have been nice for her to stay longer on the island, sure but I think she gets everything she needs to know for the narrative.

This is the crux of the problem. She’s not a character with an arc; she’s floating along and being handed her abilities by the universe in order to suit the narrative. No work, no progression, no setbacks, no loss. It’s a boring hero’s journey.

SilverWook said:

Yeah, that would be like revealing two already established seemingly unrelated characters are actually brother and sister! Who pulls that out in the third film and expects to get away with it? 😛

Leia being Luke’s sister wasn’t necessary to complete his arc and it was a weird path to take for sure, especially given their relationship in ESB.

Imagine Kylo and Rey being made siblings in IX. Nothing overtly sexual has happened between them, but they’ve shared moments that might be kind of creepy if you were to look back on them through that lens.

I still think the biggest mistake Lucasfilm made was knowing this would be a trilogy and not penning story treatments for all three films from the start. Instead of being a thoughtful and satisfying conclusion, IX might end up being hazmat-level cleanup.

SilverWook said:

This could all be fixed if it’s revealed she had a bit of training as a toddler by some forgotten survivor of the Jedi purge. 😉

I suspect there’s something waiting for us in IX to explain it, but who knows. Either way, taking three films to explain the protagonist’s origins have left her with a fairly shallow arc in each film. I blame Abrams’s penchant for mystery boxes and cliffhangers and inability to tell a complete story from start to finish.

dahmage said:

Jay said:

dahmage said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

darthrush said:

NeverarGreat is bringing up some great points. I think the very fact that so many people (at least that I have talked to) thought that Rose crashing into Finn made no sense proves this. Because they felt (as well as I) that the movie set them up for Finn making a successful sacrifice.

That’s just how they interpreted the scene, as well as how I did. Doesn’t make it more right than an alternate interpretation, but that is kind of how movies work. They are meant to provoke different opinions from people and readings of the same material.

The Last Jedi in my opinion, for that scene, presented it in a manner that set us up to be angry and puzzled with Rose’s decision. Just my reading of the scene.

I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

I’m not trying to say every scene has only one proper interpretation, but rather that your preconceptions of how the story should go color how you interpret a scene. Knowing this is Star Wars and the heroes don’t die, Finn’s life is never at risk and there is not chance of him destroying the weapon because he has to live for the next film. That is a Star Wars Trope. So watching that scene and expecting to see Finn die is not a reasonable expectation of the scene. The purpose of that scene was to show that during the course of this film, Finn went from trying to save Rey to trying to save the Resistance. He has gone from a runaway Stormtrooper to a full on Rebel. That was his character arc. Rose helped him on the arc and then rescued him when the arc was complete. The details in the movie back this up. A speeder needs speed to do damage. One of the things to notice is that his speeder is moving slower in the growing force of the beam. Finn is on a pointless suicide mission because he wants to save the day. When you look at all the things in the movie that indicate it is pointless, Rose saving him becomes very natural. It isn’t the only interpretation, but it is the one that fits what we see, his story arc, and what is normal for Star Wars.

Others have already explained why the opposite interpretation is also valid, so I won’t rehash that. If it were as clear as you suggest, viewers would be more uniform in their interpretation.

As far as Star Wars tropes and “what is normal for Star Wars”, the director doesn’t get to subvert expectations in one scene and then fall back on tropes in the next. In New Star Wars, vessels can hyperjump into other vessels to destroy them and characters can develop Force sensitivity into Yoda powers within weeks. Why should I expect anything I’ve seen before to hold up in this new universe?

These two complaints are ridiculous. First, a vessel hyperjumping into another vessel (or planet) was established in ANH. “That will end your trip real quick”.

Using a lightspeed jump as a weapon forces all kinds of questions about why it wasn’t done sooner and how such a weapon could have transformed previous battles we’ve seen play out using conventional Star Wars weaponry. Apparently now anybody can find a junker with a functional jump drive, put a droid in the cockpit, and destroy entire fleets. There are good reasons for writers to avoid doing stuff like this, like consistency within the universe. This is one of those tropes we could rely upon previously, but not anymore.

Second, Rey’s force powers were developed in TFA. Every single one she picked up after “seeing” Kylo Ren do it. She really didn’t pick up anything new in TLJ. So neither complaint is accurate for TLJ.

Rey’s Force powers were never “developed”. They just emerged. And unless I’m mistaken, she wasn’t lifting multiple massive boulders in TFA. Rey is a Jedi Master in all but title—mind tricks, saber fighting, telekinesis, etc. I was under the impression developing these powers required guidance and meditation, but apparently it’s as simple as seeing someone else do it, mimicking them, and achieving instant success.

Anakin required training. Luke required training. Kylo required training. Rey lifted boulders because anything you can do, she can do better.

It is laughable to think Rey a Jedi master in all but title. She does almost none of those things with the finesse that you would expect of a master, and it is hard to picture her mentoring another at this point.

She is a natural with the force, not a master.

Eh, give her another couple weeks. She’ll get there. Probably just needs to watch a few YouTube videos.

I mean, I am fully in agreement with you that she has natural force talent that we haven’t ever seen manifest like this before. And I do agree her caracter didn’t have the best arc in TLJ compared to some of the others.

But I don’t agree with your barely contained distain for her character.

I’m not trying to contain it at all. I think she’s a terrible character and the least inspiring Jedi hopeful I’ve seen. It’s a shame because I enjoyed her humble beginnings in TFA (the scene where she caught a glimpse of her future in the old woman was really well done I thought), but nothing about her journey since leaving Jakku has held my interest. She’s mostly there to give Luke and Kylo someone to talk to.

dahmage said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

darthrush said:

NeverarGreat is bringing up some great points. I think the very fact that so many people (at least that I have talked to) thought that Rose crashing into Finn made no sense proves this. Because they felt (as well as I) that the movie set them up for Finn making a successful sacrifice.

That’s just how they interpreted the scene, as well as how I did. Doesn’t make it more right than an alternate interpretation, but that is kind of how movies work. They are meant to provoke different opinions from people and readings of the same material.

The Last Jedi in my opinion, for that scene, presented it in a manner that set us up to be angry and puzzled with Rose’s decision. Just my reading of the scene.

I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

I’m not trying to say every scene has only one proper interpretation, but rather that your preconceptions of how the story should go color how you interpret a scene. Knowing this is Star Wars and the heroes don’t die, Finn’s life is never at risk and there is not chance of him destroying the weapon because he has to live for the next film. That is a Star Wars Trope. So watching that scene and expecting to see Finn die is not a reasonable expectation of the scene. The purpose of that scene was to show that during the course of this film, Finn went from trying to save Rey to trying to save the Resistance. He has gone from a runaway Stormtrooper to a full on Rebel. That was his character arc. Rose helped him on the arc and then rescued him when the arc was complete. The details in the movie back this up. A speeder needs speed to do damage. One of the things to notice is that his speeder is moving slower in the growing force of the beam. Finn is on a pointless suicide mission because he wants to save the day. When you look at all the things in the movie that indicate it is pointless, Rose saving him becomes very natural. It isn’t the only interpretation, but it is the one that fits what we see, his story arc, and what is normal for Star Wars.

Others have already explained why the opposite interpretation is also valid, so I won’t rehash that. If it were as clear as you suggest, viewers would be more uniform in their interpretation.

As far as Star Wars tropes and “what is normal for Star Wars”, the director doesn’t get to subvert expectations in one scene and then fall back on tropes in the next. In New Star Wars, vessels can hyperjump into other vessels to destroy them and characters can develop Force sensitivity into Yoda powers within weeks. Why should I expect anything I’ve seen before to hold up in this new universe?

These two complaints are ridiculous. First, a vessel hyperjumping into another vessel (or planet) was established in ANH. “That will end your trip real quick”.

Using a lightspeed jump as a weapon forces all kinds of questions about why it wasn’t done sooner and how such a weapon could have transformed previous battles we’ve seen play out using conventional Star Wars weaponry. Apparently now anybody can find a junker with a functional jump drive, put a droid in the cockpit, and destroy entire fleets. There are good reasons for writers to avoid doing stuff like this, like consistency within the universe. This is one of those tropes we could rely upon previously, but not anymore.

Second, Rey’s force powers were developed in TFA. Every single one she picked up after “seeing” Kylo Ren do it. She really didn’t pick up anything new in TLJ. So neither complaint is accurate for TLJ.

Rey’s Force powers were never “developed”. They just emerged. And unless I’m mistaken, she wasn’t lifting multiple massive boulders in TFA. Rey is a Jedi Master in all but title—mind tricks, saber fighting, telekinesis, etc. I was under the impression developing these powers required guidance and meditation, but apparently it’s as simple as seeing someone else do it, mimicking them, and achieving instant success.

Anakin required training. Luke required training. Kylo required training. Rey lifted boulders because anything you can do, she can do better.

It is laughable to think Rey a Jedi master in all but title. She does almost none of those things with the finesse that you would expect of a master, and it is hard to picture her mentoring another at this point.

She is a natural with the force, not a master.

Eh, give her another couple weeks. She’ll get there. Probably just needs to watch a few YouTube videos.

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

darthrush said:

NeverarGreat is bringing up some great points. I think the very fact that so many people (at least that I have talked to) thought that Rose crashing into Finn made no sense proves this. Because they felt (as well as I) that the movie set them up for Finn making a successful sacrifice.

That’s just how they interpreted the scene, as well as how I did. Doesn’t make it more right than an alternate interpretation, but that is kind of how movies work. They are meant to provoke different opinions from people and readings of the same material.

The Last Jedi in my opinion, for that scene, presented it in a manner that set us up to be angry and puzzled with Rose’s decision. Just my reading of the scene.

I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

I’m not trying to say every scene has only one proper interpretation, but rather that your preconceptions of how the story should go color how you interpret a scene. Knowing this is Star Wars and the heroes don’t die, Finn’s life is never at risk and there is not chance of him destroying the weapon because he has to live for the next film. That is a Star Wars Trope. So watching that scene and expecting to see Finn die is not a reasonable expectation of the scene. The purpose of that scene was to show that during the course of this film, Finn went from trying to save Rey to trying to save the Resistance. He has gone from a runaway Stormtrooper to a full on Rebel. That was his character arc. Rose helped him on the arc and then rescued him when the arc was complete. The details in the movie back this up. A speeder needs speed to do damage. One of the things to notice is that his speeder is moving slower in the growing force of the beam. Finn is on a pointless suicide mission because he wants to save the day. When you look at all the things in the movie that indicate it is pointless, Rose saving him becomes very natural. It isn’t the only interpretation, but it is the one that fits what we see, his story arc, and what is normal for Star Wars.

Others have already explained why the opposite interpretation is also valid, so I won’t rehash that. If it were as clear as you suggest, viewers would be more uniform in their interpretation.

As far as Star Wars tropes and “what is normal for Star Wars”, the director doesn’t get to subvert expectations in one scene and then fall back on tropes in the next. In New Star Wars, vessels can hyperjump into other vessels to destroy them and characters can develop Force sensitivity into Yoda powers within weeks. Why should I expect anything I’ve seen before to hold up in this new universe?

These two complaints are ridiculous. First, a vessel hyperjumping into another vessel (or planet) was established in ANH. “That will end your trip real quick”.

Using a lightspeed jump as a weapon forces all kinds of questions about why it wasn’t done sooner and how such a weapon could have transformed previous battles we’ve seen play out using conventional Star Wars weaponry. Apparently now anybody can find a junker with a functional jump drive, put a droid in the cockpit, and destroy entire fleets. There are good reasons for writers to avoid doing stuff like this, like consistency within the universe. This is one of those tropes we could rely upon previously, but not anymore.

Second, Rey’s force powers were developed in TFA. Every single one she picked up after “seeing” Kylo Ren do it. She really didn’t pick up anything new in TLJ. So neither complaint is accurate for TLJ.

Rey’s Force powers were never “developed”. They just emerged. And unless I’m mistaken, she wasn’t lifting multiple massive boulders in TFA. Rey is a Jedi Master in all but title—mind tricks, saber fighting, telekinesis, etc. I was under the impression developing these powers required guidance and meditation, but apparently it’s as simple as seeing someone else do it, mimicking them, and achieving instant success.

Anakin required training. Luke required training. Kylo required training. Rey lifted boulders because anything you can do, she can do better.

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

darthrush said:

NeverarGreat is bringing up some great points. I think the very fact that so many people (at least that I have talked to) thought that Rose crashing into Finn made no sense proves this. Because they felt (as well as I) that the movie set them up for Finn making a successful sacrifice.

That’s just how they interpreted the scene, as well as how I did. Doesn’t make it more right than an alternate interpretation, but that is kind of how movies work. They are meant to provoke different opinions from people and readings of the same material.

The Last Jedi in my opinion, for that scene, presented it in a manner that set us up to be angry and puzzled with Rose’s decision. Just my reading of the scene.

I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

I’m not trying to say every scene has only one proper interpretation, but rather that your preconceptions of how the story should go color how you interpret a scene. Knowing this is Star Wars and the heroes don’t die, Finn’s life is never at risk and there is not chance of him destroying the weapon because he has to live for the next film. That is a Star Wars Trope. So watching that scene and expecting to see Finn die is not a reasonable expectation of the scene. The purpose of that scene was to show that during the course of this film, Finn went from trying to save Rey to trying to save the Resistance. He has gone from a runaway Stormtrooper to a full on Rebel. That was his character arc. Rose helped him on the arc and then rescued him when the arc was complete. The details in the movie back this up. A speeder needs speed to do damage. One of the things to notice is that his speeder is moving slower in the growing force of the beam. Finn is on a pointless suicide mission because he wants to save the day. When you look at all the things in the movie that indicate it is pointless, Rose saving him becomes very natural. It isn’t the only interpretation, but it is the one that fits what we see, his story arc, and what is normal for Star Wars.

Others have already explained why the opposite interpretation is also valid, so I won’t rehash that. If it were as clear as you suggest, viewers would be more uniform in their interpretation.

As far as Star Wars tropes and “what is normal for Star Wars”, the director doesn’t get to subvert expectations in one scene and then fall back on tropes in the next. In New Star Wars, vessels can hyperjump into other vessels to destroy them and characters can develop Force sensitivity into Yoda powers within weeks. Why should I expect anything I’ve seen before to hold up in this new universe?

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

Chewielewis said:

Jay said:
The RT audience score stands at 46%. If it only succeeds as a film with people who watch films for a living, it failed.

A self selecting poll heavily brigaded by angry fans. (Just for comparison, TPM has 55% audience rating). Yeah, no that has no basis in reality.

I’ll take something like Cinemascore over that, which is based on actual market research. They give it an A, so its definitely succeeding with the general public.

The debate over the validity of different scores was done to death in the official TLJ review thread, I believe. TLJ fans like to point to the RT critic score while insisting the audience score is gamed. The CinemaScore sampling method is also flawed because it’s mostly conducted close to the premiere and immediately after the audience leaves the theater, which means an audience with a higher number of hardcore fans and lack of time for reflection over what they saw can skew the results.

You can count me among those who enjoy TPM more than TLJ, by the way.

DominicCobb said:

Many (if not most) films feature protagonists that have to learn hard lessons. TLJ is not alone in this regard, even among Star Wars films.

Execution aside, the idea that making a hero learn a lesson will alienate the audience isn’t one that really makes sense.

That’s not what NeverarGreat said. Luke learned plenty of lessons in the OT and he’s universally loved because of that arc. What some of us aren’t buying is his need to learn this particular lesson and that Rey was the one to teach it. Same thing with our other heroes.

The validity of a score that invites people to leave their opinion is only as valid as the source of the opinions. If a group engages in the process of loading such a score with bad reviews then it will be falsely low. It can just as easily be falsely high. In the case of TLJ, we know that there was an effort to bring down the score of the film. But in any case, the accuracy is in question. Rotten Tomatoes is only a vague indicator of quality. It is not a random poll of people who viewed the movie and so should not be considered in any way accurate.

On Rotten Tomatoes, the critic reviews are 90%. The audience reviews are at 46%. 73% of Google users liked it. The Roger Ebert site gave it 4 of 4. Amazon reviewers gave it 3 1/2 stars out of 5. It has 5.5k up votes on YouTube out of 7.5k votes. It has 4 out of 5 stars on Google Play. And it has a 85 on Metacritic. To me that says the 46% on Rotten Tomatoes is a false outlier. A proper audience appreciation score would be between 70% and 80%.

Without knowing how they weigh their scores, they’re all suspect. It’s my understanding that RT doesn’t include 1-star reviews in their average, for example. MetaCritic is just a composite of critics’ reviews. We’re talking about audiences here though, not critics. Looking at user reviews that are less prone to gaming, you cited Amazon (70%), YouTube (73%), and Google Play (80%). Not exactly stellar numbers, but decent enough for a Star Wars movie that’s not in the OT.

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

You can count me among those who enjoy TPM more than TLJ, by the way.

I understand this must be a low bar for you, but what do you enjoy about TPM?

• Qui-Gon (my favorite Jedi)
• Palpatine (my favorite character in the whole saga)
• 3PO (unlike his terrible jokes from AotC, I think his humor works pretty well in TPM)
• The pod race (and the Tusken Raiders in particular…biggest laugh by far when I saw it in the theater)
• Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul
• John Williams doing some of his best work
• Interesting plot (some people hate all the exposition and politics, but being a fan of Palpatine, I find the maneuvering and manipulation entertaining and TPM does a good job of setting up exactly how he came to power)
• Feels like Star Wars to me (totally subjective, of course)

There’s plenty technically wrong with TPM (wooden acting, sometimes questionable dialog, pacing issues, etc.), any scene with a Gungan ranges from weak to annoying, and midi-chlorians should have been left on the cutting room floor, but it managed not to ruin characters I care about while at the same time introducing me to new ones I like. And more than anything else, it reinforces the idea that training, dedication, and mindfulness are essential to gaining insight into the Force and expanding your powers, even if you’re Space Jesus.

TLJ is a great technical achievement that trashes the characters and lore I care about while failing to advance the new characters that TFA couldn’t get me to care about in the first place. And it throws a couple new terribly written characters in the mix just for fun.

The bottom line is I can ignore what I don’t like about TPM and enjoy the rest. TLJ doesn’t allow me to do that because the parts I don’t like involve main plot points and main characters, and the rest isn’t interesting enough to hold my attention.

Chewielewis said:

Jay said:
The RT audience score stands at 46%. If it only succeeds as a film with people who watch films for a living, it failed.

A self selecting poll heavily brigaded by angry fans. (Just for comparison, TPM has 55% audience rating). Yeah, no that has no basis in reality.

I’ll take something like Cinemascore over that, which is based on actual market research. They give it an A, so its definitely succeeding with the general public.

The debate over the validity of different scores was done to death in the official TLJ review thread, I believe. TLJ fans like to point to the RT critic score while insisting the audience score is gamed. The CinemaScore sampling method is also flawed because it’s mostly conducted close to the premiere and immediately after the audience leaves the theater, which means an audience with a higher number of hardcore fans and lack of time for reflection over what they saw can skew the results.

You can count me among those who enjoy TPM more than TLJ, by the way.

DominicCobb said:

Many (if not most) films feature protagonists that have to learn hard lessons. TLJ is not alone in this regard, even among Star Wars films.

Execution aside, the idea that making a hero learn a lesson will alienate the audience isn’t one that really makes sense.

That’s not what NeverarGreat said. Luke learned plenty of lessons in the OT and he’s universally loved because of that arc. What some of us aren’t buying is his need to learn this particular lesson and that Rey was the one to teach it. Same thing with our other heroes.

Chewielewis said:

Jay said:
I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

I think thats the thing, if you interpret the film as it is supposed to be interpreted then its a fantastic film. It doesn’t have a 90% RT score and 85 Metacritic score for nothing. People who watch films for a living are capable of seeing its worth, I think that counts for something.

The RT audience score stands at 46%. If it only succeeds as a film with people who watch films for a living, it failed.

darthrush said:

NeverarGreat is bringing up some great points. I think the very fact that so many people (at least that I have talked to) thought that Rose crashing into Finn made no sense proves this. Because they felt (as well as I) that the movie set them up for Finn making a successful sacrifice.

That’s just how they interpreted the scene, as well as how I did. Doesn’t make it more right than an alternate interpretation, but that is kind of how movies work. They are meant to provoke different opinions from people and readings of the same material.

The Last Jedi in my opinion, for that scene, presented it in a manner that set us up to be angry and puzzled with Rose’s decision. Just my reading of the scene.

I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

yotsuya said:

As for Rey’s powers it seems to me that RJ has simply changed the nature of the Force for his own convenience. The OT (and even the midichlorian-infested PT) establishes the Force as something that requires serious training and incredible mental/emotional discipline - irrespective of the wielders’ natural proclivities. In RJ’s SW universe the Force manifests like X-Men powers (see ‘Broom Boy’).

I’ll correct you here as that would be JJ Abrams. And as I’ve said, she can pick up powers, but has no guidance as to how to use them. Luke had serious doubts. Ben and Yoda had to overcome his doubts. That is one of my biggest problems with the complaints about TLJ. So much of what Rian did was based directly on JJ’s setup. Blaming these things on Rian is nonsense. Luke’s self exile after Kylo turned and destroyed the school, Rey’s ability to pick up powers as soon as she sees them, the First Order being like the Empire, the Resistance being like the Rebellion, all these things come straight from TFA and Abrams.

This is a fair point. Johnson had to deal with the shoddy writing that Abrams handed him and the choices he made were logical extensions of where Abrams took the characters. That’s not to say he had to, though.

If it turns out that “the force awakens” was intended as a literal statement and the Force is somehow exerting its will through characters like Rey and Broom Boy, then a lot of what’s happened in the sequels will end up making sense. I think that’s a horrible take on the Force and how it works, though.

yotsuya said:

No, TLJ doesn’t exist in a vacuum. But when looking at it in context of the other films one thing you shouldn’t be doing is reading motives into things you don’t like. Unless you have some insight from something other than the films that the people making these films have some secret message or motive, you are just talking nonsense. As one saying that frequently goes around writers circles goes, an English teachers expounds on the meaning of blue in a particular work and when you ask the author they reply that there is no meaning, they just meant the color blue. When you try to put motives to people without a shred of proof beyond what you imagine you are seeing in the films, you are just making things up out of thin air. That I have a problem with. When you lift up Luke beyond his all to well documented human failings and say TLJ failed because Rian Johnson tapped into that humanity, you are falling prey to creating unrealistic expectations of the character. Rian even played on that in the story. He knew what you were thinking and took the character in a more interesting direction. That you don’t like that is fine, but stop taking your criticism of the direction he went and building this big conspiracy around it. You don’t like it. We get it. But if you come at it from a ridiculous set of expectations, I’m going to have something to say.

Interesting direction? Luke achieved something his masters couldn’t using a technique they didn’t espouse (Luke: “I can’t kill my own father.” Ben: “Then the Emperor has already won.”) and the culmination of his ingenuity and true Jedi-like approach was to become Failed Jedi Hermit #3. It’s the exact opposite of interesting or unique. It’s downright unoriginal. And poorly executed.

What conspiracy are you talking about? How are my expectations ridiculous? I didn’t expect anything going in other than hopefully a good Star Wars movie. I don’t feel I got one.

I come at this from the writer’s point of view. Writers have to be somewhat free to tell the story that compels them. Rian Johnson is a Star Wars fan. JJ Abrams is a Star Wars fan. It colors what they do with the characters. Their stories fit with the characters as they see them. It is not some great Disney or Lucasfilm conspiracy. It is them taking creative license to tell a story within a framework. I see what they were doing as I saw what Lucas did with the PT. There are some you can’t defend. There is a lot you can. Lucas sucked at dialog and performance choices. He could write a killer story. Abrams is great at crafting characters but is miserable at editing and endings. Rian likes to delve into the character and be more subtle. Their inspirations color what they do. Lucas was trying to create a movie serial (2 hour episodes similar to the old Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon) and he imbibed it with WWII and Samurai influences. I can’t really speak for Abrams, but Rian was open that he watched Twelve O’clock High, Three Outlaw Samurai, and To Catch A Thief to prepare for this movie. The influences show.

I would’ve preferred he spent more time watching Star Wars movies instead.