Humby

Bobocop said:

Now keeping Luke's last name as Skywalker with an "old wizard" called "Old Ben" Kenobi so close by when they're supposed to be hiding? Now that's pushing it. (I realize it wasn't originally quite like that until Empire and Jedi, but its an early example of Lucas' retconning without covering all his bases)

 
I blame the prequels for this. Even after ESB and ROTJ, this didn't seem that absurd, because Tattooine really felt like an out of the way speck of dust in an enormous galaxy full of of the "speck of dust" planets.

But by tying the planet so close to Anakin, and making it a location that we see in all three prequels, it seems like a common stop when traversing the galaxy.  It suddenly make Vader and Palpatine look like complete idiots.

So the Trevor Slattery One Shot "All Hail the King" has been released.

*SPOILER*
-----------------
It follows what we are led to believe as a documentary maker, who is chronicling Trevor's masquerade as the Mandarin, and the real history of the Ten Rings in the MCU.  It is quickly revealed that the Mandarin was once a real historical figure, likely supernatural, due to the fact that he is still alive.
------------------
*END SPOILER*

Luckily this One-Shot doesn't effect too much of the narrative, so what I've done so far doesn't need any fixing.  This short will be tightened up, lots of it cut out, and what remains will be worked into the end of the edit.

I'm still debating how much of Iron Man 2 and the MCU references will be in this edit, but I can confidently say that I have figured out a way that makes the Mandarin plot run better throughout the whole edit.  Cheers! 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Humby said:

If that is the case, it makes me wonder why they would try to align some things and not others.  Why not create everything from scratch if half of the EU gets retconned anyways?

 Perhaps the writers of DC Comics have taken over the EU ;-)

But I mean start from scratch with the film, not the EU.  Whether they reboot the EU or not I couldn't really care less.  But if the film only picks and chooses some elements of the EU, why even bother?  Just ignore all of the EU to create a restriction free film.

xhonzi said:

It seems silly to name the kid Ben, and then otherwise completely contradict the EU. 

"Ben" says to that they're tyring to go in EU-agnostic.  If you know his name is Ben from the EU, good for you, it's just like the EU.  If you don't, then you probably don't know or care.  Good for you too.  Everyvbody wins.

I feel as though they wont be able to go EU-agnostic, as you put it (I like that term, I'm going to steal it and use it from now on).  There are just so many details that at least some of them will impede the story they want to tell.  And honestly, I think the transition to Disney may have caused a lack of initiative to flesh out all the EU related issues for the new films.  But that's just my own speculation.

If that is the case, it makes me wonder why they would try to align some things and not others.  Why not create everything from scratch if half of the EU gets retconned anyways?  It would make more sense to me to just keep the existing EU in it's own timeline or "classic canon-verse."  And then from now on promote a new timeline or "sequel canon-verse".  Just like Marvel has the 616 Universe and the Ultimate Universe.  The materials that get printed/created from here on out can be advertised as classic or sequel canon.  And the EU writers can choose which canon they want to create new stories for.  This would give the sequels to start from scratch, and not have to half-ass some elements of EU into and/or out of the sequels.

For me, I really have no preference at all.  I've followed a bit of EU, but not much, and I won't be heartbroken if they contradict/retcon it.  It doesn't effect my enjoyment of those stories and it won't effect my enjoyment of the new films.

Harmy said:

I personally don't give a crap about what is and isn't canon. For example, the Sherlock Holmes stories are not exactly canonical, yet it makes no difference to my enjoyment of them.

And as for Star Wars, I for example love the Thrawn Trilogy but if Ep7 doesn't take it as canon, it's not going to do anything to my enjoyment of those books and, if it's any good, of the movie either.

The words of a true fiction fan.  It's a shame most Star Wars fans don't have this mentality.

I think it's why many people refuse to accept the faults of the PT.  They are so invested in the Saga, and if they accept that the prequels aren't great, it will tarnish the entire GFFA.  Denial essentially, because they don't have the ability to enjoy the individual stories/films for what they are.

DuracellEnergizer said:

The OT Jedi were spiritual warrior monks who served as the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic for a thousand generations. The PT Jedi were aloof genetic supermen who served as the enforcers of a corrupt Republic for a thousand years.

I don't think anyone could sum it up any better than this.


At the start of the prequels, the Republic should have been in a golden age.  The Jedi should have been almost entirely separate; off on some relatively undeveloped planet being used as a monastery for training and meditation.  The only contact between the Jedi and the Republic should have been in the form of occasional moral guidance with respect to "the force."

Having some sort of proxy between the Jedi and the Republic would have been a great role for Anakin.  He would have developed close ties within the Republic and a desire to involve the Jedi in political matters.  The Jedi would naturally be opposed.  Even when it is revealed that there is a Sith lurking in the shadows, the Jedi still avoid political involvement, instead, opting to conduct their own investigation.  Anakin would grow frustrated with their lack of "open" involvement, and take matters into his own hands, fighting for the republic and leading their armies into battle.

Once Disney gets past the Sequel Trilogy, puts out a handful of spin-offs, and drifts away from Lucas as a 'creative consultant,' I wouldn't be surprised if they consider remakes of the prequels (although that could lead to, frightening as it is, remakes of the OT as well).  Unless remakes were somehow prohibited by the contract they signed.

I bet within 10-15 years we will start hearing rumors of PT and/or OT remakes.

I don't particularly mind the fact that we return to Tattooine in ROTJ.  For the relatively small scale events that took place throughout the OT, it was nice to return to Luke's homeworld to juxtapose where he was in ANH, to how much he had changed come ROTJ.

And don't forget that Jabba was already closely linked to the planet in ANH.  The special edition Jabba scene was clearly in the original script, so Lucas had at least planned to set up that association.

Being a middle of nowhere rock is what made it so attractive to the gangsters and 'scum and villainy.'  So using the planet as a hideout for Jabba doesn't brother me.  But in TPM, it almost seems as if the Hutts are running a government, and that Mos Espa is a bustling city with a healthy economy, and prominent social scene, and some sort of governance by the Hutts, which contradicts everything that was said about the planet in the OT.  Jabba was gangster and a criminal, his palace was a hideout, and Tattooine was meant to house a few small space ports that thrive off of the criminal going-ons that take place there. Mos Espa completely ruins that.

It would be very interesting to find two people with very similar tastes who have no knowledge of Star Wars and have one of them watch your version, and one of them watch the theatrical version.  I'd love to see how the differences would shape the opinions of each viewer.

That being said, I'd also love to do the same exact experiment, only one person would watch them in order of release, and the other would watch them in chronological order.  :P

imperialscum said:

Humby said:

OBI-WAN37 said:

Someone asked me in the "sick of prequel bashing" thread why I think the prequels are good films. Here is why: they are just as moving and fun, if not more so, than the Original trilogy.

For God's sake, that doesn't make them good films.  That makes them films that you enjoy.  There are plenty of movies that I love which I know are straight up bad films.  That doesn't ruin my enjoyment of them.  There are black and white reasons why these films don't work as an effective narrative and creating another thread only makes your ability to argue look weak.  Stop (or leave) before you make yourself look worse.

I am sorry but there is no such thing as universally good or bad film. An estimation of a film is completely subjective and based on individual opinion. There is no objective measure according to which one could estimate the quality of the film. It not a science where you have a clear definition what a voltage is and then you can compare two voltages measured in volts and say this one is higher... All you can do with film is generalise multiple opinions (IMDb, Oscars, etc.) which is in the end just as subjective as an individual opinion.

I agree that there is a grey area when comparing many films, but there are both subjective and objective ways to critique film.  I'm heading out of those house but I'll be back if you wanna talk more about it.

OBI-WAN37 said:

Someone asked me in the "sick of prequel bashing" thread why I think the prequels are good films. Here is why: they are just as moving and fun, if not more so, than the Original trilogy.

For God's sake, that doesn't make them good films.  That makes them films that you enjoy.  There are plenty of movies that I love which I know are straight up bad films.  That doesn't ruin my enjoyment of them.  There are black and white reasons why these films don't work as an effective narrative and creating another thread only makes your ability to argue look weak.  Stop (or leave) before you make yourself look worse.

OBI-WAN37 said:

Humby said:

@OBI-WAN37

I'll give you the Palpatine/Anakin discussion as decent dialogue.  But it's not great.  The bigger issue with it, however, is why Anakin felt it was perfectly normal for the Chancellor to be dabbling in Sith legend.  Why is a supposedly good character telling Anakin (a Jedi) that the Jedi are no different than the Sith.  Anakin finds all of this perfectly normal, and it makes him look completely daft.

 At this point I'm too tired to think of the possible flaws in your logic, so I'm just going to say the always-reliable phrase: whatever.

 There isn't a single flaw in my logic.  Which I would guess is why you resort to "whatever."

You claim us to be boring, yet we are willing to discuss our reasoning with sound logic and objective facts, with opinions sprinkled in.  You on the other hand can only seem to defend your prequel love by telling us things you like about it.  We know you like it, tell us objectively how those things make it good movie.

@OBI-WAN37

I'll give you the Palpatine/Anakin discussion as decent dialogue.  But it's not great.  The bigger issue with it, however, is why Anakin felt it was perfectly normal for the Chancellor to be dabbling in Sith legend.  Why is a supposedly good character telling Anakin (a Jedi) that the Jedi are no different than the Sith.  Anakin finds all of this perfectly normal, and it makes him look completely daft.

OBI-WAN37 said:

Yoda: ...Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering...

Just because it sounds intelligent doesn't make it intelligent.  Can't suffering lead to fear, or hate lead to anger, or suffering lead to anger, or fear lead to suffering, etc.  Stringing together some independent clauses doesn't make the line coherent or intelligent.

OBI-WAN37 said:

Well at least you were polite, unlike a lot of people here.

 
On the contrary, I typically frequent other sites such as TFN and I find most of those users to be far less respectful of our opinions, than we of theirs.

Most of us here are willing to have a healthy debate, so long as the other party can provide evidence to support their argument.  But most fans of the prequel trilogy often have no evidence to support their stance, other than "I like it", or "I think it's good."  And when we offer actual evidence as to how something might not be technically, aesthetically, or narratively pleasing, they attack us and try to force feed us their opinion.

We at this site may seem bitter, but we are actually rather level headed.  Any bitterness comes from the constant barrage of attacks we receive from a typically younger group with less [or no] experience in the study of film (and considering that fan edits are a staple of this website, many of us do have experience in different stages of media production).  This can make us quick to challenge those who come here to "convert" us. 

But then again, some of us just might be huge a$$holes. ;-)

OBI-WAN37 said:

lightspeed2112 said:

Obi-Wan37, if you're really looking for an in-depth look at what's wrong with the prequel trilogy, check out the reviews at Red Letter Media.

 http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace/

These reviews articulated what I always felt about what was wrong with these moves, but couldn't put into words. They're quite lengthy, but well worth it.

 Those reviews are far too dark, and besides, whenever reviewers like that criticize the prequels, they never note anything positive about the films, and when they do, it's always along the lines of "sure, this was okay, but this was awful", when in truth the thing that was "okay" was actually awesome and the thing that was awful was actually just a small flaw. For example a prequel-hater might say, "sure the action was okay, but the acting was awful", when in truth the action was fantastic and the acting wasn't bad enough to outweigh the other positive things, like the very well-done tragedy and the great amount of Jedi and a look at how things were before Palpatine took over.

What you have to remember about those reviews is that they are going for a laugh.  They are written as comedy pieces rather than unbiased reviews.  But never the less, they do point out a good majority of the flaws and how awful they really are.

What most people with your point of view seem to think that we are trying to ruin your enjoyment of the prequels.  And that is just completely untrue.  We have no problem with people enjoying those movies.  Hell, I enjoy watching them occasionally as well.  I saw them when I was a bit younger and they provide me with a bit of nostalgia.  But regardless of that, we will defend to our deaths that they are objectively poorly made films.  They may look cool, they may provide a thrill, but they lack the majority of things that made the OT not just fun, but well made films (particularly ANH and ESB).

And personally, I even disagree with your statement about the action.  The action in the prequels is quite boring and uninspired.  Is it cool to watch?  Sure, because it's a science fiction space battle, or a war with laser weapons and light sabers, but aside from the sheer amount of "stuff" on the screen during these action scenes (which some might even consider a bad thing), they really aren't great at all. 

The acting on the other hand, is awful.  And it's not necessarily the actors' faults, but rather the poor dialogue and direction, the lack of tangible environments, and the unintelligible intentions of each character.

Again, I'm glad you enjoy these movies and I respect your opinion towards them.  I can't deny that I get a kick out of watching them now and again, but I will never stop arguing that they are not only poor star wars films, but poorly made films in general.

I just found this on Wookiepedia:

"...the company responsible for the development of his boosters, was shut down, and his rocket boosters were eventually damaged and thus could not be repaired. Despite this, however, R2 hardly regretted the loss of his ability to fly."

It's like a backwards retcon, haha.

@Hal9000

Hope you don't mind a little constructive criticism!  I just watched it, and I loved it, but I'll make note of some of my thoughts here.

The general editing and pacing is really great.  Although I noticed a few places where small pieces of dialogue were cut, nothing stood out or felt too choppy.  Removing the gungan city worked wonders!  Similarly, I enjoyed your removal of scenes and characters such as Jabba, the group of Tatooine children, and midichlorians, amongst others.  Great work cutting down Jar Jar's antics, although there two or three places where I would've gone just a tiny bit further.  But overall, he is far more bearable in this than in the original.  I (personally) would even consider removing 3PO to some extent.

The only thing I wish you hadn't removed was Qui-Gon's dialogue to Obi-Wan as he dies.  Although I understand your reasoning for doing it.  I wonder if there is any part of that conversation that can be preserved without the chosen one nonsense.

The inclusion of some of the deleted scenes or shots was interesting, but overall felt unnecessary.  For example the junk droids during the podrace, or the Kitser scene right before the race.  The Kitser scene especially just feels awkward.  Odd dialogue from 3PO, poor performances from Portman and Lloyd, and the weird photoshop transfer of Kitser's head.  To me, this is the one thing about your edit that I would hands down change.  No offense though, that's just my opinion.

The podrace score is a little bit choppy and sometimes doesn't best fit the action on screen, but the video is edited together very well.  I've never rescored anything like this, so I would imagine that it can be difficult to make preexisting music and footage fit together flawlessly.  It certainly isn't bad, but it could stand a little fine tuning.  But either way, great choice using the SotE soundtrack, I love it.

So these are some of the good and not-so-good things that I noticed.  You should definitely take comfort in the fact that everything I didn't mention worked perfectly for me, and in my eyes, this is far superior to the original film.  I hope my thoughts haven't come off as too critical, because I think this is going to be my go to version of the TPM.  Great work!  :)

Don't forget that even Episodes II & III featured R2 with rockets on his sides.  Not that I'm defending it, haha.  But the cartoons always adopt the more extravagant features to appeal to the younger crowds.

It goes to show how limited George's writing became, that he wrote himself into a corner, and the only way to get out was to give R2 rockets.

Everything else about this "Chopper" droid however seems pretty interesting, and a little humorous as well.

imperialscum said:

Humby said:

Yeah, JJ's take on Star Trek was specifically designed to be completely different.  Reinventing the wheel, if you will.

I think most of the people involved on Ep VII, however, will be much more invested in revisiting the elements that made the OT so great, and seemed to be missing from the PT.  In his case, the OT was the wheel, and the PT was a leak in the wheel.  The ST will patch the leak and refill the wheel, haha.

I will wait until I see the film...

 Agreed.  I should have stated that this is just what I'm hoping to be true.  I didn't mean to claim it as fact.

Yeah, JJ's take on Star Trek was specifically designed to be completely different.  Reinventing the wheel, if you will.

I think most of the people involved on Ep VII, however, will be much more invested in revisiting the elements that made the OT so great, and seemed to be missing from the PT.  In his case, the OT was the wheel, and the PT was a leak in the wheel.  The ST will patch the leak and refill the wheel, haha.

Hal 9000 said:

Personally, I think the Samurai Jack styled 2003 'Clone Wars' microseries edited together into one two-hour film serves quite well as an Episode 2.5. 

Agreed.  Although not much happened story wise, I love that particular art style and it really suited the clone war action.  I would prefer to watch this over both the prequels and the CG clone wars series.

I think the snow reacts relatively realistically.  It looked like a relatively bright day during the battle, the sun probably would have made the snow dense and heavy, and it acts exactly like that underneath the slow moving feet.  When the walker falls though, it does create a burst in the snow, because there is more force.

Joe Johnston directing worries me.  He is incredibly average.  Jurassic Park 3, Captain America, Jumanji, the Wolfman... all average films at best.  Even the Rocketeer, despite its cult following, is relatively average.  October Sky is hands down his best film.

ratpack1961 said:

Luke Skywalker having kids goes completely against the prequels and how they thought of the Jedi.  If this is true then Luke is either saying the old rule stunk and he isn't following it or the creators are abandoning the prequels completely.

 
Not necessarily.  Luke was trained in the ways of the force, not necessarily the rules of the old jedi order.  It's safe to assume that after the fall of the order, Obi-Wan and Yoda realized that it was time to reconsider the failures of the past, and leave the fate of the jedi up to a new generation.

I just don't see Yoda having told Luke to avoid falling in love, or starting a family.  Luke's priority was on overthrowing/converting Vader, same with Yoda.  And in all honesty, I refuse to believe that Yoda and Obi-Wan would come back in ghost form to teach Luke more and try to reinforce the rules of the old order.  Their appearances as ghosts should be limited to overthrowing the evil that was Vader and Palpatine.  After that, Luke should be on his own.

Which is why, although irrelevant to this conversation, I will be severely disappointed in the sequels if they end up bringing back ghosts of Yoda or Obi-Wan.  It bordered on lazy writing back then, and IMO will inexcusable if they use it any more.

This idea might turn some people off, but presuming they actually do go this route, this is how I would approach the spin-off from a totally unconventional, non-starwarsian, approach...

It could be very cool to see two different stories that jump back and forth between one another:

-The protagonist/anti-hero would be a mysterious drifter.
-The main story would follow the drifter, who has taken up the mantle of Boba Fett, after killing him 15 years ago. He is on the hunt for a target with a bounty on their head. Drifter Fett is killed at the end after a harrowing fight (as a plot point, he'll achieve some moral goal along the way, so his effort wasn't in vein).
-The secondary story takes place 15 years earlier, as the drifter is being hunted by the original clone Fett (who has a galaxy wide reputation) and he ends up killing him and taking the mantle.

Obviously there would be more to it than that, but the two stories would contrast the rise and fall of the drifter as Boba Fett. The main storyline would start and end the film, while the secondary story would play out intermittently throughout, almost as flashbacks. It's completely out of the Star Wars storytelling style, but I think they need to mix it up for the spin off movies anyways. And naturally the final scene of the movie, would be the man with the bounty on his head, picking up the Boba Fett helmet.

To me, this would establish Boba Fett as more of a legend than a man.  And that given the rifht circumstances, the Boba Fett mantle can be carried on.