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Go-Mer-Tonic

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13-Sep-2006
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28-Mar-2007
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Post
#246709
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246709/action/topic#246709
Time
Yeah thanks Zombie, that was a concise informative read. I tried to get involved as much as I could over at TFN but between that one thread becomeing white noise after a while and the mods arbitrarily banning anyone who said anything that someone might not want to hear (on both sides of the debate) made it rather difficult to follow.

That's part of the reason I came here, seeking out an adult forum that isn't run by kids.
Post
#246706
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga"
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246706/action/topic#246706
Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
I don't dislike the PT. I think it's entertaining. Some parts are even great. However, some parts are completely cringeworthy. Revenge of the Sith made me laugh at the deaths of children, which means that something was horribly wrong with that scene. You are laughing at the deaths of children, and it's the "scene" that's wrong? I have to say I was in tears for that bit. It hit me really hard when he ignighted his saber on opening night. Every time since I can try to hold it back for that scene, but in the next one when Padme breaks down I always lose it still.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
But I find the movies enjoyable enough. I didn't, however, ever think that we were "supposed" to watch them in numerical order. That thought never entered my mind, and I can't believe that's the view that George is trying to press. For me it was the way he numbered them that clued me into that prospect.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Once again, if he'd wanted them to be watched that way, he would have made them that way. According to Lucas, he made them out of order for a couple of reasons. 1) He figured the ANH part of the story was the most straightforward for an audience. 2) He felt he could pull off the 2nd half of the story easier because it all takes place away from the center of the universe, so he wouldn't have to render something as ambitious as Couruscant.Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
As it is, it makes no sense.
Really it does make sense, I'm telling you it makes perfect sense.Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The two trilogies are two separate stories, and the PT is totally dependent on having seen the OT first. The PT is backstory. It is there to explain the past of the OT. That's its only purpose. I mean, he can deny it all he wants, but it's very obvious in the way he made the prequels. He was obviously trying to cater to fans of the original movies, which just doesn't work if these are the first Star Wars movies you saw. All those useless, jarring, and unncessary cameos and allusions are there only because Star Wars fans will know what they are. Jango Fett and little Boba? Because we know of Boba Fett from the OT. The droids? Because we knew them from the OT. Chewbacca? Because we knew him from the OT. Binary sunset? Because we saw it in the first movie. I will argue that all that stuff sucks, but the point remains that it's only there in the first place because we should have already seen the OT.
If you see the prequels first, then wouldn't it be the classic trilogy with the cameos that are dependant on having seen the prequels? A first time viewer would be just fine seeing the prequels before the classic trilogy, because they get to see the events as they unfold. Nothing is spoiled in this order aside from the "I am your father" surprise (which now becomes "Oh my God, what will Luke do now that he's finally found out the whole truth?") and the "Leia is my Sister", which really to me seems like a pretty convenient development without the prequels to set it up in the first place. Before the prequels it was like they picked "the other" out of a hat, now it seems like it was always part of the story.Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
The 6 part tragedy (when, in reality, it doesn't even fit the classification of a tragedy to begin with) of Anakin Skywalker just doesn't fly. The PT is Anakin's story. But the OT is Luke's story. It always was. And saying it's not doesn't change anything.
The whole saga is Anakin's story, but I agree the classic trilogy is still primarily Luke's story with a cameo by Anakin in the end when he finaly "returns".
Post
#246615
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga"
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246615/action/topic#246615
Time
I agree, I think the focus on Luke Han and Leia in the classic trilogy works very well just because it sort of sets the audience up for the expectation that Anakin is now lost for good. We don't see much to his character in ANH, because really all there is to his character is what we see. It's in Empire and Jedi that his humanity starts to make a comeback.
Originally posted by: Scruffy
Okay, here's some examples of concepts that were altered between the OT and the PT...

In the OT, it was established that Jedi training began during adolescence. ("He is too old to begin the training. / Was I that much younger when you taught me?") In the PT, it's established that Jedi training begins during prepubescence. Obi-Wan never asked if he was much younger, he says "Was I any different" in response to Yoda saying Luke was reckless.

What's great about this is the tension that is being built by making even Anakin too young at age 9. They make a big deal about how Anakin is too old, and in the end he turns to the dark side, and now we have Obi-Wan trying to convince Yoda to break that rule even further with Luke.
Originally posted by: Scruffy
In the OT, it's established that Mrs. Skywalker stayed with Leia but died when she was very young. In the PT, she dies in childbirth. In the OT it was established that Leia could only remember "images really" of her "real" mother, and that she died when she was really young. Childbirth is maybe a little younger than one would have expected, but she is talking about only remembering "images really". Either chalk that up to her actually recalling her childbirth, or perhaps she was seeing images of her through the force. But the idea she was "staying" with her mother certainly wasn't nailed down at any point, again she's talking about recalling "images really" and doesn't talk about anything they did together or anything like that.
Originally posted by: Scruffy
In the OT, Boba Fett and the stormtroopers are not all clones of the same source. (They have different accents and, depending on how you interpret visual cues, different faces.) In the PT, they are all clones of a bounty hunter.
The official word on that is as time went on they ended up using a variety of genetic sources (since Jango was dead), and on top of that they found it more cost effective to recruit people into the military as well. So the Stormtroopers in the classic trilogy aren't all clones, and even the ones that are could be from one of several genetic sources.Originally posted by: Scruffy
In the OT, a dying Jedi typically disappeared, and this was curious or even unremarkable. In the PT, dying Jedi leave behind corpses. There is no strong correlation between disposition of the corpse and later appearance as a ghost.
The way it worked out in the end, is Qui-Gon was the first Jedi to figure out how to retain his identity after death. Once he did that, he hooked up with a Shaman of the Whills who had also figured out eternal consciousness and he taught Qui-Gon another technique that allows a Jedi to become one with the Force at will. Qui-Gon was just killed, he didn't choose that.

He then teaches both techniques to Obi-Wan and Yoda through the Force while they are each hiding out on Tatooine and Dagobah. Neither Obi-Wan or Yoda actually "died" in the traditional sense. Obi-Wan was gone before Vader's blade could find him. Yoda was on his death bed, but he also chose to become one with the Force at will. That's why they both disappear and end up becoming Force ghosts, while Qui-Gon never does either of those things.

According to Lucas, the reason Anakin disappears is because Yoda and Obi-Wan helped him do that from the other side. We didn't see him disappear on screen, and Lucas was saying somewhere that the point of that was to keep the audience in suspense so that when he finally does appear as the Ghost, it's a bigger payoff. Lucas contends that Vader's armor is empty on the funeral pyre.Originally posted by: Scruffy
Heck, the ideas behind the OT weren't even static during the making of the OT. If you believe that the story was mutable and dynamic from 1977-1983 but entered stasis from 1983 to 2005, I've got a bridge to Alderaan to sell you.
Well I think the story of the classic trilogy ended up evolving far more than his back-story did. Sure he just had an outline, and sure he added new ideas as he went here and there, but by and large it seems to stick closer to his original plan. Maybe Anakin and Vader were 2 different people, but beyond that, it's still pretty much the same dynamic. Anakin was always going to be a fallen hero, I just don't think he knew how far he would end up making him fall at first.

But I am really glad they ended up being the same person, I think that is far more interesting and much more thought provoking.
Post
#246587
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga"
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246587/action/topic#246587
Time
Man, this is pretty cool. Going on some of the first people to "greet" me on this forum, I have to say I am pleasantly surprised by the tolerance shown to me by most everyone else here.

As anyone who knows me can tell you, once I start down the "gushing" path, forever will it dominate my destiny.

Anyway to get things started, in a nutshell, the reason I think the full saga is better than either of the trilogies on their own is because of the way they mirror each other. Some people will say Lucas is just bereft of ideas, which is why we got a 2nd Death Star in ROTJ and a similar "blow up the space station" sequence in TPM. While all three of these "blow up the station to save the day" scenarios are indeed similar, closer inspection reveals the differences between them that elevate each of them from just being a carbon copy element.

First of all it's widely known that Lucas was originally going to just have one Death Star at the end of the classic trilogy story, but moved that scenario to ANH to give that film a huge dramatic punch at the end. When it did well and he knew he could finish the trilogy, he came up with the 2nd death star idea. The differences between the 2 Death Star scenarios are that first of all, it's the ancillary characters who are "saving the day" in ROTJ while Luke Han and Leia all have their own separate roles to play elsewhere. So it's sort of like the new generation of rebels, inspired by the heroism of Luke Han and Leia carrying on the torch of fighting freedom.

Another difference is that while the first Death Star attack was pretty simple and straight forward (the plan was always to hit the exhaust port while the imperials defended), the 2nd Death Star attack plays against the expectations of the first Death Star attack by making the whole thing an elaborately planned trap by the Emperor. Truly showing the scope of his power to influence everyone around him, he controlled the rebels right into his trap with misinformation. So the rebels go in with a similarly simple plan (albeit now they have to fly inside the Death Star to do it) but then the tables are turned when they realize the shields are up and the Imperial fleet was just waiting to corner them in. To me that made some serious drama on it's own when I first saw ROTJ. When Admiral Ackbar said "ITS A TRAP" I was going nuts on the edge of my seat.

Okay so that's what’s different about the first 2 "blow up the space station" bits. Now with TPM, we have another situation where the Skywalker is the only one who was able to hit the reactor to blow up the ship and save the day. It certainly mirrors Luke's run on the first Death Star more than it does Lando's victory in ROTJ. The big difference between them though is that Luke was consciously trying to hit a target, while Ankain seemed to "accidentally" hit the buttons at just the right time. Just before Luke fires his shot, he is urged to "use the Force" to make it in and Luke does that by consciously tapping in as Ben had taught him.

In Anakin's case, he's not trying to use the Force, but at the same time, it's pretty miraculous that he would just happen to land facing that particular direction, and he would happen to try the torpedo buttons at just the right moment.

To me this is illustrating the 2 dynamics of how the Force works.

Luke: You mean it controls your actions?

Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

I think Luke used the Force, while the Force used Anakin. So in that way I don't see this as a re-hash, as much as showing the other side to the same coin. In that way each scene augments the meaning of the other by offering contrast to these ideas.

Midichlorians

Lucas talks about how he always intended there to be this more scientific side to the Force, but that he just didn't get into that much in the classic trilogy (I think I am getting this from the commentary on the TPM DVD). If you read the ANH novel (even before the SE's came around) there is a part where Obi-Wan talks to Luke about how the Old Republic tried to define the Force with science, but that they never quite could. That perhaps the Force is just as much magic as it is science. Not more magic than science but just as much. Add to that the way Luke was strong in the Force because he was the biological son of a powerful Jedi and it's easy to see what Lucas is talking about with regards to the "science" of the Force even back then. So all this stuff about how Lucas took away the mysticism and replaced it with science isn't entirely accurate.

Now the concept of Midichlorians themselves is fascinating to me. Lucas loosely based them on our real world equivalent: Mitochondria. Just like Midichlorians, Mitochondria are a microscopic life form that lives in every living cell here on Earth. Scientists theorize that they are the reason life exists in the first place and that without them, we would have no knowledge of the Force (well okay maybe not that last part but these two concepts really are that close).

The really fascinating thing about them is that when scientists started studying Mitochondria, a lot of religious people were saying we shouldn't be studying them. That finding out the source of life could stand to disprove God himself. Just as many Star Wars fans were insisting that the introduction of Midichlorians could stand to de-mystify the Force concept.

In reality neither do any such thing. Neither the study of Mitochondria, or the introduction of the Midichlorian concept "explain" God or the "Force" respectively. They both merely add a whole new layer of questions on top of the ones we already had.

Some fans act like the Midichlorians fly in the face of everything we know about the Force in the classic trilogy.

For example, some people say if Midichlorians are only in living things, then how could the Force be in the rock as Yoda says in Empire? The answer is that Midichlorians aren't the Force itself; they are merely antennae which allow 2 way communication between living things and the Force.

Other people say that Midichlorians suddenly make the Force biological, but as I explained earlier, it was always something passed down from one generation to the next as exampled by Luke being strong in the Force because he's related to Anakin. Also the very concept that they would be able to make the Jedi "all but extinct" shows that Force sensitivity would be something that is genetic rather than purely spontaneous.

I could go on and on like this aimlessly, but I want to hear your questions if you have any to point me in a more meaningful direction for you.

For those of you who really didn't like the Midichlorians, please bring up concerns I have yet to address.

(edit I spellchecked)
Post
#246542
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246542/action/topic#246542
Time
I don't mean to suggest you shouldn't express yourself about it, or to take a stand by not buying something you don't feel is worth your money.

I am just trying to talk about the position we are in on this. The idea that we are not going to "let" Lucas get away with this is just not within our power.

I am all for trying to get Lucas to make a better transfer. While I'll accept this non anamorphic if that's all we're getting. I really would like to see as many fans happy again as possible.

I just think that taking a path that invovles calling Lucas a liar, or saying he's only worried about money isn't going to be the kind of thing that motivates Lucas to play nicer than he has so far.

I mean on the one hand a lot of us are accusing him of milking the fanbase, while simultaneously hoping he'll milk us again with a better transfer of the O-OT.
Post
#246493
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246493/action/topic#246493
Time
I appreciate your pointing me in the right direction, I was just hoping you could give me the cliff notes version of who said what, you know how we know Lucas is lying. You don't have to support it with articles, just tell me what your take is of what is really going on here.

I haven't seen all of this myself, and I certainly don't want to be running around with a ton of misperceptions about all of this, which is why I ask you this. I just want to understand why a lot of us have the stance that Lucas is lying about all of this.
Post
#246452
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246452/action/topic#246452
Time
Here is what they said in the form letter linked to by OriginalTrilogy.com.
As you may know, an enormous amount of effort was put into digitally restoring the negatives for the Special Editions. In one scene alone, nearly 1 million pieces of dirt had to be removed, and the Special Editions were created through a frame-by-frame digital restoration. The negatives of the movies were permanently altered for the creation of the Special Editions, and existing prints of the first versions are in poor condition.
How can we verify that they sent a great technicolor print to Lowry digital?
Post
#246396
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246396/action/topic#246396
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84
The fact that the O-neg no longer conforms to the original 1977 version of Star Wars is a technicality that Lucasfilm has been twisting into confusing people that "the original version doesn't exist anymore" as in "the original version has been destroyed and is not coming back" which is clearly absurd. See they didn't say that, a lot of us just assumed that's what he meant by it.
Originally posted by: zombie84
Aside from the fact that an O-neg scan is by no means the only source of a high-res telecine (in fact only rarely is the O-neg used for releases), various private collectors and public institutions have undertaken preservation efforts, and it has been well documented as well that not only are the original negatives and interpositives still preserved in the LFL archives, but that Lucas himself personally owns specially-made high quality prints, and even lent these to the laboratories who restored the SE as reference guides. So you are saying that because third parties are claming Lucas is just a button press away from making a nice anamorphic transfer, that he is the one lying about it? They have been up front about having prints beyond the negative altered to make the SE versions, but they are saying that they are all in pretty bad shape, and would take a lot of restoration work to make them suitable for a new anamorphic transfer. I appreciate the motives for which Lucas -could- be lying, but again I am not willing to judge him a liar on the say so of some anonamous third party who claims to have inside info.
Originally posted by: zombie84
Why didn't they make a new transfer for this release? Because they didn't have to. As can be seen--and the dvds are currently in Amazon.com's top ten sales--they could get just as much money from us by not spending a cent. This way we buy both these and the eventually-released restored versions. If he happens to release them again in a better resolution.Originally posted by: zombie84
Obviously this has nothing to do with personal preference or artistic vision of Lucas, otherwise he would not be releasing them.
Well of course, Lucas' "preference" is the SE version, obviously. To me it's pretty clear he did this release of the O-OT on DVD just for people like us.Originally posted by: zombie84
And besides that, the whole thing was schemed up by Jim Ward, not Lucas himself, who isn't usually too involved with his companies sales. Its simply about getting money from people.
By selling people what they have been asking for for years. To me that's a pretty good way of making money.Originally posted by: zombie84
2001 was the first year of Lucasfilm dvd and they had TPM. 2002 had AOTC. 2003 had Indy trilogy. 2004 had the SE. 2005 had another release of teh SE which didn't do too good but it was okay because they also had ROTS. Now they need something else so they throw a LD transfer of the OOT and they have another huge dvd sale. Next year will have the saga box set, which i feel probably wont sell very well unless they include the OOT in a restored form.
I think it will sell just fine without the O-OT in it.

Post
#246384
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246384/action/topic#246384
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
Go-Mer,

Not saying I disagree with you, but what happens if there is proof that he does own pristine prints? Would he be a liar then?

All I think he's doing (really) is protecting the product to which he feels is his vision of the Original Trilogy. I have nothing against that.

If that were the case, I don't think he would have released the O-OT on DVD at all.
Post
#246377
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246377/action/topic#246377
Time
No, they haven't been lying about it. The never said they -couldn't- do it, Lucas says he doesn't want to spend that kind of money on making it happen.

They say the original negatives were permanantly altered when they created the special editions. They also say the prints they do have are all in poor quality.

I'm not willing to call him a liar based on pure speculation and the word of anonomous people over the internet who claim to have the inside scoop.
Post
#246370
Topic
Lucasfilm to sell Physical Effects Unit
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246370/action/topic#246370
Time
I don't know. I see some great performance with CG as well. As much as the dynamic in ESB with Yoda and Luke worked, at the same time, I can't help but notice how Yoda's mouth is not really enunciating the words coming out of his mouth. Sure he looks like he's "really there" but to me he still just looks like a rubber puppet.

I think it's a testament to Frank Oz that he was able to elevate Yoda's performance to what it ended up being, but at the same time, I definately had to meet him half way on the whole deal.

It just seems like a lot of us aren't willing to do that anymore.
Post
#246367
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246367/action/topic#246367
Time
Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
They didn't say they -couldn't- do better. They said they weren't interested in doing better ... that says they -could- spend tons of money to resurrect the original picture quality, but they just don't want to ... if they don't do any better, isn't this better than not getting it at all?

No, quite frankly. And I'm not going to let them off with it. I'll keep badgering them until they provide a good product. If they won't do it then screw 'em. I'm not wasting my money on this lazy effort.
They aren't on a hook to get off of. If you don't want to buy it, there are plenty of others who will.

I guess if it's a matter of principal to you then I respect that. But I'm wondering who is being damaged more?

Lucas because he didn't get another $60 out of you, or you because you refuse to enjoy the O-OT unless he releases it anamorphically?
Post
#246360
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246360/action/topic#246360
Time
They didn't say they -couldn't- do better. They said they weren't interested in doing better.

I don't know much about all these archive copies they have laying around in vaults, maybe they are good enough to get a nice looking transfer.

But Lucasfilm has been saying that their prints they have are all in pretty poor shape. To me that says they -could- spend tons of money to resurrect the original picture quality, but they just don't want to.

Regarding anonomous people who claim to be insiders who know all about how Lucas is lying, well, it must be nice they know that information first hand. It still does me no good.

My point is if they don't do any better, isn't this better than not getting it at all?
Post
#246358
Topic
Lucasfilm to sell Physical Effects Unit
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/246358/action/topic#246358
Time
I certainly don't have anything against people who do not enjoy these as much as I do.

If anything, I wish I could share my joy for this saga with all of you.

If I call you guys into question about how you guys feel about it, it's just to better understand or to perhaps try to get you to see some of these things from a different perspective. Maybe it makes a difference for some of you, or maybe it doesn't. When it comes to matters of taste, there is no right or wrong.

I just think a lot of times people can get so hung up on the things Lucas didn't "get right", they can end up missing out on a lot of the things he did get right.

To me it's much more difficult to believe a bunch of puppets, than it is to accept a digitally shot image. It's not like ANH ESB or ROTJ looked like Saving Private Ryan either, but I still rolled along with the story and suspended my disbelief.

It's like ever since CG and digital film making in general have come about, suddenly it has to look 100% real or we fold. What happened to our ability to roll along with a monkey woman Emperor? Or a Salacious crumb jumping up to the rafters through the magic of reversing footage of them dropping him from the ceiling? Why are we suddenly kicked out of the moment by a CG character who has a mis aligned shadow?