I still just stick with the GOUT. It’s sad, but it’s done me well enough for the past 13 years. Maybe I’ll get around to checking out adywan’s work eventually. But the real savior for me was getting into the radio dramas this year. Nothing sullied about those. Han’s the only one who shoots, and there’s not a Maclunkey to be found.
OK, but… why Maclunkey? Of all the changes they could have made, why that one in particular? Who was the executive that thought: “This scene is iconic, but you know what it’s missing? Greedo saying a gibberish word right before he shoots. Yeah, it’ll be like how in a Western they say Draw right before they shoot, but made more Star Warsy.”
If you believe Pablo Hidalgo, that executive was George Lucas back in 2012.
Oh, I believe him. I can’t imagine anyone but George insisting on a change this inane. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall watching him explain to an underling that they really needed to get someone into the recording studio before this Disney deal went down, or else he’d never get his chance to have Greedo say “Maclunkey” like he’d always envisioned.
TV’s Frink said:
with how dumb it was not to let a loose cannon like Poe who openly disobeys orders in on the plan
And what happens when they let him in on the plan and he disagrees with it? He blows it up.
I got no problem with that.
This. This is the thing right here that agrees with the thing I say.
I just honestly don’t get why anybody would think Poe had any business being “in” on the plan. He certainly had no reason to expect so in the beginning, and by the end, he had absolutely proven why he shouldn’t have been.
If anything, I only feel it doesn’t work in that Poe fails just a bit too hard to be believable. His insubordinate actions indirectly cause most of the Resistance to be killed, and yet Leia and Holdo give him the equivalent of an “Oh, you rambunctious little scamp, you” reaction. By all accounts, he really should be through after such a devastatingly huge cock-up, not groomed to be a leader. I mean, I guess at this point they have little choice, but that’s hardly reassuring.
I’m reading through this crazy thread and here I finally had a laugh! Thanks!
But don’t use that word any more. It’s gross.
Yeah… When I saw ROTS in theatres, and Obi-Wan and Padme were saying, with complete sincerity, “Anakin killed… Younglings!” I just laughed out loud. And nothing gets you dirtier looks in a theatre than you get from parents of small children looking at you because you just laughed at dead children. It’s just an awkward experience for everybody. But it’s not my fault it’s such a stupid word!
Alright, some action in this thread! So, I’m sorry to have to say this to my buddy, but, Warb, I’m firmly in the camp of “Why in the world do you have a problem with this to the point that you’re seriously questioning whether lightning comes from clouds?!”
You being of the Christian faith, Warb, it surprises me you haven’t considered the old adage “God works in mysterious ways.” Why did this person die in a car crash? Why is Donald Trump President? Why is there disease and famine in the world? We really don’t know. But there are some things that are accepted through faith. That is a huge tenant of most spiritual doctrine, and Star Wars has never been any different in that regard. And since fiction writers, like all of us, are never really up and up on all the mysteries of the cosmos, works of spiritualism and faith tend to wade in the waters of ambiguity.
The afterlife of Star Wars is not something we know much about. It’s not something we’ve ever known much about. And while I enjoy consistency as much as the next rabid nerd, explaining everything about what is essentially magic would rob it of its, well, magic. As such, the writer has a balancing act between having things make consistent, logical sense and forcing him/herself to completely chart the unknowable.
I know you brought it up to compare canon, but I think your comparing Star Trek to Star Wars in that sense is a problem, since those two franchises explicitly handle canon in different ways. But I think it also illuminates that you might be looking at Star Wars through too much of a Star Trek lens in other ways. Star Trek, while often fantastical, is at least rooted in the ideas and principles of science. Phenomena can be observed and explained. Star Wars is not even remotely based in science. There’s nothing fun or interesting in a romantic space swashbuckling film about the logistical sense of the actions of ghosts.
I’m not saying that should give them free reign to literally have them do anything, but I don’t think “lightning comes from clouds,” when we see the lightning come from the clouds, is too much a stretch to make, nor does it require an explanation.
As someone who really does like this film, this confuses me too. What was their plan, initially? As has been said, they never fire guns at the thing, assuming they even have guns, so was it always a suicide plan? How else could they have possibly taken it down? But if so, what changes in Poe between launching that mission and abandoning that mission? All of his character beats happen before the mission even starts. The lesson of the day isn’t that sacrificing yourself is bad. Because, you know, he learned his lesson from Holdo, who sacrificed herself. The idea, as I understand it, is supposed to be to understand that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. That it’s foolish to do pointlessly heroic things for pointlessly heroic deaths. That’s the contrast between Poe’s Dreadnaught attack and Holdo’s sacrifice. Poe causes a huge part of their fighters to get killed for a glorious victory when they could have simply turned tail and lived to fight another day. Holdo killed herself solely so that her comrades in arms could live to fight another day.
However, what Finn was about to do feels much more in line with the latter example than the former example. Finn was going to sacrifice himself, not for glory, but so that his friends might live. This is exactly what Holdo did. So I just don’t get why Rose and particularly Poe are against it, especially since I don’t understand what Poe’s plan was in the first place.
TV’s Frink said:
Why is it so hard to discuss the legitimate question of Rey’s abilities without using an offensive term to do it?
Because there’s nothing inherently offensive about it! I’m sorry, Frink, but I really strongly disagree on this one.
Getting back to my original point, but without the deviation into sexism…
Oh, good grief!
The capital letter consensus is poor substitute for discussing anything.
Honestly, I feel TFA did resolve the whole parents issue. “They’re never coming back.” Bam. Done. Endgame. Nothing else needs be said. TFA never plays up their identities as a mystery. They’re nothing more than a plot device used to hold Rey back, to keep her from “accepting the call.” They’re an anchor around her neck, pulling her back to Jakku, and causing her to push away the actual family she is cultivating: Finn, Han, Chewie. So I honestly have no idea why fans obsessed over this for two years. I just rolled my eyes and crossed my fingers that no one would be stupid enough to ruin all of that and make them Luke Skywalker or some other such nonsense.
Obviously TLJ does tease the audience with this, with the expectations the fans have. And I’m okay with it here since it ultimately just serves as the perfect “pulling the rug out” moment, both for Rey and for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something they could never hope to be right about. TFA didn’t create this obsession over who Rey’s parents are. The fans did.
I think C3PX put me onto those.
Well, at least that’s what the beginning of the thread said. 😉 Is he still around at all?
I just finished episode 8. I admit, from the larger “saga” perspective that I intentionally try to distance myself from when watching the first movie/novel/radio drama, there are a few things that are unintentionally amusing.
I think in episode 7, Ben is explaining the Wookiees to Luke and mentions that they have a strong, natural connection to The Force. And I immediately said out loud, “Well, of course! Because Yoda used to hang out with them during the Clone Wars!”
And then, in episode 8, we get a much more in-depth look at Darth Vader torturing Leia and trying to manipulate her mind. At one point, he tries to convince her he’s Bail Organa. So you ultimately have Darth Vader, in an adaptation of the first movie, say to Princess Leia, “I’m your father! Tell your father what he wants to know!” I was howling!
Just on a whim, I finally tracked these down and am listening to them. The Last Jedi really reignited my interest in Star Wars. And I had to track down the Anchorhead thread since Anchorhead was always “the radio drama guy” to me. It’s so embedded in me now, I found it odd to read posts from an Anchorhead who was only just listening to them for the first time. But I’ve gotten through episode six of Star Wars, and I’m loving it so far! I suppose Brock Peters is really the only voice I’m having a hard time getting used to, but I’m hoping he’ll grow on me. I love Brock Peters, but I admit it’s easier to hear him as Ol’ Pa Sisko from Star Trek than as Darth Vader. But I loved that the first two episodes were entirely non-movie material (well, episode one being deleted scenes, but you know what I mean). I can’t wait to experience the movies in this new way, and I can’t believe it’s taken me this long!
TV’s Frink said:
This is the most important post anyone has made (I actually skimmed through the last page to make sure I didn’t need to say it myself) and the threade can now be closed.
You son of a bitch. You evil, awesome son of a Frink!
I stand corrected. Where I live we have Sinterklaas, and Santa Claus is called Kerstman, or Christmasman. 😃
Well, geez. Honestly, I like those even better! ^_^
Yes, to those kids he’s Santa Clause. I’ll agree with you on that. I wish I could still believe in Santa Clause…
Not to take away from your point or focus too much on pedantics. It’s simply a pet peeve of mine I see thrown out way too often. But I really, really, really wish we could knock out this misconception that Santa Claus has an “e” in it. I don’t know if it was the Tim Allen movie that did it (the title of that movie is a pun), or if it was widespread before that, but this has to stop! It has to stop, I say!!!
I agree I didn’t really care for the BB-8 antics in this movie. In TFA, he was perfect. In this movie, he was prequel R2-D2. I immediately got worried in the opening fight when he was using his little robot fingers to plug up the short circuits in the X-Wing. And the AT-ST thing was stupid as well, and the suggested alteration would have probably helped significantly. But I actually didn’t mind the coin stuff as much. As I told other people, that was right on the line for me.
You know, when George Lucas used to whip out that tired old “People just want to see Darth Vader killing people with his lightsaber for two hours” excuse when people would rag on Episodes I and II, I always thought it was just a lame deflection of the prequels’ inability to tell an engaging story. But between all the negative comments about Luke in this movie and how many people I heard claim Vader’s 30 seconds on Tantive IV was the absolute best part of Rogue One, I’m beginning to think maybe he was right… 😕
Damn it. I was hoping someone would run with the Ewok nipple clamp thing, so we could spend six pages debating whether that happened in the movie, or if it was only in the novel!
TV’s Frink said:
Warb wasn’t first, Mrebo was before that (and maybe someone else I can’t remember). Otherwise sounds spot on…I forgot about the Ewok thing!
I betcha five liters of milk from the space teet of Ach-To Sydney Greenstreet that Warb was first!
TV’s Frink said:
I honestly don’t remember. It’s amazing it’s gone on this long.
If memory serves, the debate was about whether Luke was in character, yadda, yadda, yadda. Someone gave a list of dark or dark-ish behaviors Luke perpetrated in ROTJ: cutting off Vader’s hand, putting nipple clamps on an Ewok, force choking people, etc. Warb expressed confusion at the force choking thing, and here we are!
It was interesting seeing all of these familiar names after so long. I’d honestly forgotten Vaderisnothayden and the VINH acronym as well! And good old C3PX. He’s good people.
Personally, while I do like a hero to have to earn and strive towards their powers/goals, the whole idea that The Force has to be diligently studied in order to be effectively used is somewhat blown out of the water when Luke uses it to make a one in a million shot to blow up the Death Star literally a day after finding out it exists.
In that scene it kinda felt like they were doing this in the movie:
Same thing with the scene with reveal about Rey’s parents.
Sorry, but that is how it felt to me.
Maybe I can see how the lightsaber scene could be viewed that way, but I just don’t see why people were so dead-set on Rey’s parents being someone special! Or that TFA was totally, for sure implying that was the case. I for one would have been extremely pissed if she had been a Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine family member, and I was literally fist-pumping and whisper-yelling, “YES! YES! YES!” when Kylo told her her parents were nobodies. Because I am so sick of everybody in this freaking galaxy being related or having backstories tied to one another. It hasn’t been cool since 1980. That’s literally the only time it’s worked. It certainly didn’t work in 1983 when Luke and Leia became related. It didn’t work in 2002 when Boba Fett’s daddy fought Obi-Wan Kenobi. And it really, really, REALLY didn’t work in 2005 when Yoda and Chewbacca were BFFs. It just would have been another cheap rehash if Rey had been shoehorned into someone else’s family tree.
36 year old fan here: I felt like this Luke Skywalker definitely fell in line with the Luke we grew up with. Abeit one who made a mistake and can’t help but hide in shame.
The funny thing is: I was expecting a curmudgeon Luke when TFA came out. I mean, they pretty much set it up in that film. Jedi school gets wiped out by Kylo, Luke runs off to find the Jedi temple (looking for answers?), and doesn’t find solace and decides that life isn’t worth living.
I totally agree! It surprises me that people were surprised by the Rey/Luke pick-up at the top of this movie as compared to the end of TFA. As far as I saw it, that was exactly what I was expecting! When he tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder, it was shocking but at the same time, exactly what I figured was going to happen.
Wow. I never would have guessed we’d be debating whether or not Luke choked the guards. It always seemed completely obvious to me that he was choking them. Funny how that works.
As for the comparison of Luke versus Ben and Yoda… honestly, the way we ultimately see it presented in the prequels makes it very difficult to swallow what they did, and I find it very difficult to defend it outside of, “We need to tie up loose ends and get everyone to where they are in the first movie.” Honestly, the concept would have worked much better with the earlier interpretations of the Sith as a large organization of anti-Jedi. Then, with Obi-Wan and Yoda being the only two against a huge force of Sith, it makes sense for them to flee for their lives. But with the whole rule of two, it makes no sense. I mean, from Ben’s point of view, he just killed one of the two, leaving only the Emperor, and yet right then is the moment he decides he has to get away? I mean, in the original trilogy, Obi-Wan has to use obfuscation just to get past the stormtroopers on the Death Star. But in the prequel context, the Emperor’s clone troopers, the only other means of enforcement he has besides Vader, are cut down like butter by Obi-Wan and Yoda. They’re no threat at all. So rather than team up against the Emperor or leading a rebellion… they just go into hiding, leaving everyone to suffer at the hands of Imperial tyranny.
Honestly, Luke’s motivations seem extremely plausible by comparison.
Well, it’s one of those things you don’t want the audience to know for sure before it happens; otherwise, all the tension has just been removed. If Luke had said beforehand, “I’m just a vision,” or he walked through a wall or something, then, blammo, the whole sequence is ruined! You need to be on the edge of your seat, wondering how Luke survived the barrage of AT-AT fire, or if Kylo really did just strike him down. As I said in my previous post, I wonder if it already WAS too obvious since I guessed it immediately. But while I had correctly guessed, I wasn’t committed to it. I wasn’t sure if I was right. Therefore, I was totally in the moment when all of those things happened, and I was genuinely scared when both of those attacks happened. And then when I realized I had been right, which is exactly when the movie wanted me to know I was right, it was very satisfying.
Let it play out as a conversation between Chewie and 3PO, that let’s us use our imagination a bit more and a few suggestive growls could mean “hunky cabana boy.”
“I hear he’s fluent in over six million forms of gratification!”