Fang Zei

hairy_hen said:

The disappointed annoyance I feel whenever I watch any movie with an opening logo that obviously did not exist at the time the movie was actually made can scarcely be quantified.

It's one thing when it's a clean replacement/addition to what was already there. For example, the 2008 Paramount logo on the Godfather blu-ray doesn't bother me in the slightest since the movie doesn't really "begin" until you hear Nino Rota's score and see the opening credits.

But in the example of Toy Story you're hearing the music from the get-go, not to mention seeing a version of the logo unique to that film (at least it was at the time). I can't fathom why someone would decide to completely delete all of that.

Tyrphanax said:

This looks incredible. I'm reminded of the Trilogy arcade cabinet so much, but this is just like that only modern. Very excited! It's nice to see the arcade isn't quite dead yet.

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder how that screen works. Is it rear projection or something?

I guess it's a moot point with AotC since even with its 100% original color timing it still doesn't look like Ep1 and 4-6, but I still would've preferred it be out there on blu-ray with its theatrical color just as RotS is.

As an aside, I never did get around to seeing AotC projected digitally* but I did see it several times in 35mm (more times than I'd like to admit, believe me) and I'm assuming those colors more or less matched the digital version. If that's true, then I'm wondering why RotS looks exactly as it should while AotC looks vastly different, especially considering they claimed to have gone back to "the digital source" to make fresh hd transfers for the blu-ray.

*I saw it on opening day downtown in DC on film. As fate would have it, the only theater in the entire commonwealth of Virginia showing it digitally was only a few stone throws from my house. But by the time I wanted to see it again (a month later), they'd already switched it out for the digital version of Scooby-Doo.

The opening of the original Toy Story was totally ruined for the blu-ray release, imo. Pixar's version of the castle with Randy Newman's fanfare has been completely removed. I don't know how the second movie originally opened, but the new logos don't appear to have affected it as adversely. I wonder if there've been similar alterations to the openings of other pre-2006 Disney/Pixar movies like Bug's Life, Monsters Inc, Finding Nemo, Incredibles, etc.

Ratatouille, which is from 2007, uses a similar opening to Toy Story with the Pixar-lookin' castle. I guess that one made it to blu-ray unscathed because it was a new release and not catalogue.

Oh, and I love the irony of the touchstone logo on Nightmare Before Christmas being replaced by the Disney logo. At least they redid the opening credits to keep the score intact.

ETA: sorry if this post seemed kinda random. It was looking up the changes made to Lion King that got me thinking of Disney's own revisionism.

Even superimposed onto an iphone screen in a youtube video, that teal push they gave AotC for the blu-ray is obvious as ever.

That painting matches Badass Digest's description of the ice planet looking like the other side of The Wall in Game of Thrones.

Back around 2009 when they decided to jump ahead a hundred years in the continuity for the Legacy comics, I figured part of why they were doing it was to provide a huge empty space should a sequel trilogy happen someday. Meanwhile, they continued to write the ongoing adventures of Han, Luke and Leia in the novels.

They could've set Episode VII within the existing continuity if they'd wanted to. They didn't need to address much of what'd happened in the intervening 40 years, just that Chewie had died at some point, Luke was a widower with a son, Han and Leia had a daughter and granddaughter, etc.

I honestly believe they could've gotten away with picking up Episode VII at wherever the books were up to and still told a fresh, engaging and original story that would please the movie-only fans.

The simple answer to all of this is that Lucas never should've adopted the stance of "there is no Episode VII" because c'mon, how they hell else was this franchise ever gonna continue in any meaningful way? Yeah, there was the live-action tv series they dragged their feet on, but they were never gonna settle just for that.

What George could've (and probably should've) done is take a more supervisory role in the post-RotJ EU, saying "Maybe I'll make Episode VII someday, but in the meantime here's the history of what happened to our heroes after Endor."

Hell, I always assumed that keeping Han, Luke and Leia alive in the books was the contingency plan should Lucasfilm suddenly decide to make Episode VII.

Like I said in another thread:

If the leaked plot rumors are true, then I'm glad they're justifying the jettisoning of the EU by going in a totally different direction. Since it's been 30 years, I can kinda see why they got rid of everything. I mean, it actually would've been harder to justify titling your movie "Episode VII" when you've got 40 years worth of epic shit that's happened in the interim.

Yeah, it's awkward that they kept that continuity going for 20 years only to throw it out now, but part of this is due to Lucas' fickle nature. As of October 29, 2012, Episode VII was still "never gonna happen," so it didn't matter to Lucas what they continued to do in the EU. RotJ was "The End" so far as he was concerned. The Thrawn Trilogy onward was "the rest of the story" to satisfy the fans. Now Lucas has changed his mind.

I think it can't be coincidence that just a couple months ago this mention of 4k Star Wars goes up on RMW's website and now we're hearing this talk of a 4k blu-ray format by the end of next year. I think everyone in the industry is realizing "4k" is fast becoming the new buzz word. Regardless of when exactly this RMW job was commissioned, whether it was before or after the Disney deal, it must've been motivated by the realization of 1080p no longer being good enough for the foreseeable future.

The biggest question is whether it's the OOT, the SE or both that got the 4k treatment.

Wazzles said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a 4K scan wasn't going to be used for a 4K release, instead being released in 1080p, wouldn't it not really matter what resolution the CGI is in? Wouldn't it look fine when scaled back down to 1080p?

Not only that, but pretty much all movies finished as a 4k DI only have their digital vfx rendered at 2k. That's why movies with a lot of vfx shots are only finished at 2k.

Digital effects shots are only rendered at higher resolutions for when they actually stand to gain from it. The literal handful of hollywood movies shot partially in native Imax had the effects for those scenes rendered at 5.7k or higher. I know that some of ILM's beauty shots of Pandora in Avatar were rendered at 3k (odd res, I know) so that they would really shine in the 70mm Imax blow-up.

One of those RMW employees' resumé's said they were working on this as early as 2010. I'm not gonna go back into this massive thread and find it, but the wording was definitely that they'd "completed" a 4k restoration on the trilogy by then (didn't say which version, though). This means they would've started work on it even earlier. If those dates were accurate, the question remains as to why this newer transfer wasn't used for the 2011 blu-ray. Maybe George really didn't want to spend a dime on making everything perfect and "final" for the 3D conversions until he absolutely had to, so the 2004 masters were recycled since they're at least technically 1080p and those 2011 changes were done as cheaply as possible. As Zombie said, the 3D re-release of ANH was still years away at that point.

To play devil's advocate, I always thought George must've been convinced that he was telling a story with all the vfx in the prequels. Similarly, he probably thought the "dated" vfx of the OOT were hampering the the story he wanted to tell.

"Conversion" is still the wrong word to be using, though. They're not "converting" anything.

moviefreakedmind said:

I'm actually genuinely shocked that Lucas didn't replace Bossk with CGI. I love him, but his costume always did look pretty rubbery. I mean, if you're going to """modernize""" your movies (or whatever the hell he was doing), why replace perfectly good VFX shots with CGI, but not replace rubber lizard suits with CGI?It makes no sense. 

Probably because it would be too difficult to do seamlessly. I'm sure it's crossed his mind, but the time and effort and money that would be required probably made him go "meh, I'm just glad I can make the Ewoks blink now."

Apparently there will be actual 4k (well, quad-hd) blu-ray players and discs for sale by the end of 2015. At least, that's the plan as of right now:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/286-latest-industry-news/1674202-4k-blu-ray-newsa-you-can-buy-christmas-2015-a.html

I wonder if Star Wars will be among the first wave of titles.

What we really need is a comparison between the RMW and the blu-ray for those Empire shots.

Wow, I can still remember, I wanna say it was early 2006 (maybe '05) when I first heard about this and Fanboys, which was also delayed but eventually released on dvd on TPM's 10th anniversary. 5/25/77 was supposed to be done in time for the 30th anniversary, IIRC. I wonder if there's been any progress since the road tour.

I still want to say that the escape pod shots are from the '04 job. I remember that shot of r2 and 3po as one of the big "before and after" examples from back then. Of course, that doesn't mean they're not simply using the exact same scene to show off their work on the newer restoration, but the voice-over guy does say "here's what we delivered for dvd."

Also, it's from a different demo-reel, one that contains a lot of older restoration jobs. The reel with the saber and trench run and luke/vader fight from Empire (and that shot of 3po from ANH tip-toeing up to the camera) doesn't have anything from before 2009. That, combined with the fact that the footage doesn't match up to the blu-ray (aside from the sabers not being the originals), is what makes me think it's the 4k scan. I think they've simply redone the sabers yet again for this new scan since it was probably done primarily to make a "finished" SE and a starting point for a 3D conversion.

I highly doubt the lightsaber footage in the RMW reel is in any way connected to the 2004 job. Even if we take the botched color-timing at that release's finishing line into account, there are still differences in contrast and framing to consider. There are also differences in the flashes that the color-timing wouldn't account for. Also, the footage simply has the "look" of a modern 4k scan.

moviefreakedmind said:

To me the idea of Disney ignoring the current movies is about as likely as hearing Luke ask for Leia's midichlorian count in Ep. VII. Star Wars has been, and always will be, on the shelves in stores. It's one of the highest selling home video movies of all time, and it would make no sense to not want to sell it in stores for no reason. IN FACT! (I'm a bit excited because I just thought of this) - I wouldn't be surprised if Disney want's a new set out there so that the current blu ray set doesn't read, "The Complete Saga". The old Indy DVD set read, "The Complete Adventures," and the three movies were re-released before Crystal Skull came out, this time being advertised as, "The Adventure Collection," instead so that people knew their old boxed sets were no longer the comprehensive Indiana Jones set. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens again. Also, Disney makes money on Home Video releases, and it's always a given to re-release your movies in a new boxed set when revisiting an old franchise like this. 

Wow, I hadn't even thought of that!

It was only "the complete saga" for like a year and change before they announced Episode VII. They'd probably want those off the shelves by the time Episode VII hits blu-ray at the very latest. Think of the confusion that would cause!

My guess is that we're getting total radio silence from Disney because they don't want to announce anything at all until the time is right. They want it to be a grand announcement, press release style.

There are so many variables to consider, it makes my head spin:

-The 3D conversions. Could this be a big reason for the 4k restoration? Also, wasn't there a demo shown of AotC in 3D at a convention in Germany? I've said it before and I'll say it again, RotS is already pretty three-dimensional just in regular 2D. I wouldn't be surprised if they put out those last two prequels in 3D, even if it's a short run to get them out of the way for the OT. I'd be equally unsurprised if they simply skipped the remaining prequels. Or maybe they've completely lost interest in the 3D versions, who knows? A theatrical re-release kinda seems like a no-brainer, though, especially with Episode VII around the corner.

-What to include or not include in a home video release. The films are yet to be released individually on blu-ray. This presents an opportunity for the blu-ray equivalent of the '06 dvd, only without the bullshit this time. The question is, do they go the simple route and include only the most recent version and the original version or do they include the '97 version as well? Or do they keep it even simpler than that and just release a 3-disc OOT set?

-The situation with Fox. Does Disney release it through them or do they pay Fox to license it out? Fox is making money either way. Could this prevent Disney from giving a hoot about the existing movies? We've heard rumors that they're only focused on the new stuff. The existing blu-rays from Fox aren't going anywhere. Still, I would think they'd want to make a finished, polished, mastered-in-4k version of the movies before the new movies come out.

.... And about a million other variables that Disney is no doubt considering right now.

If his permission is all Fox thinks they need, I doubt Lucas cares one way or the other. He's 4 Billion dollars richer now and it won't be a single cent of his money that will be spent on a hypothetical OOT restoration. That's why he put out the GOUT in the first place, he didn't want to spend any of his own money on a restoration.

doubleofive said:

Fang Zei said:

The bit from the badass digest article I find interesting is that apparently the people in charge at Fox don't feel comfortable releasing the OOT while Lucas is still alive.

I'm not sure why this would be the case, though.

Yeah, but without sources, that's really just someone assuming something. I'm pretty sure Lucas has never actually said "There will be no originals as long as I draw breath!", or even thought it. For Fox to assume that is stupid, and for anyone to assume that Fox assumes that is even more stupid.

 "And there's one more wrinkle I've heard from sources at Fox: as long as George Lucas is alive they're not willing (or able? I'm not clear here) to go against his wishes and release the untouched originals. That was the situation earlier this year, when a rumor about a rerelease of the untouched originals was circulating. Unless something has changed in-house I wouldn't expect movement on these in the immediate future."

http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/16/why-i-doubt-disney-is-releasing-the-unaltered-star-wars-ot-on-blu/

I do think he's making a mountain out of a mole hill with the whole "Fox owns the rights, therefore this rumor is bs" part, though.

The bit from the badass digest article I find interesting is that apparently the people in charge at Fox don't feel comfortable releasing the OOT while Lucas is still alive.

I'm not sure why this would be the case, though.

Yes.

I say that because there are countless examples of films with more than one version being released on dvd and blu-ray with both/all of their versions included.

I seem to remember reading an article on the official site way back in 2002 where one of the people involved with AotC (on the vfx end of things, I think) said there were like 80 little differences just between the theater version and the dvd version.* The only big noticeable difference between the 35mm and digital versions in theaters was Padme holding Anakin's hand at the end, but the longer scene of his confession about slaughtering the Tuskens ("I'm a Jedi") wasn't added until the dvd IIRC.

*It was 12 years ago now, so my memory is a bit fuzzy. The dude might've just been talking about the 35mm and digital versions. It would help if I could remember what time of year it was.