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Something else I find funny or ironic: Luke is literally a shadow of himself fighting at the end of the movie.
I really do think obedience and staying in your lane are among the strongest if not the strongest themes in these new movies. Without getting too much into politics, remember Star Wars began in the 1970s when films were very cynical and with good reason. It was an era of exposing corruption. Resisting oppression in the name of freedom is the American Way.
Now, Star Wars is a franchise of commercial films and not revolutionary. They are made by Disney and the corporate establishment. They are afraid of electoral upsets and democratic checks and balances. The Chinese government is pouring billions and billions of dollars into Hollywood every year and studios are increasingly crafting their movies to meet foreign censorship approval so they can make more money overseas.
When they cut the line “this is a rebellion, I rebel” from Rogue One I knew something had gone very wrong.
The Force Awakens and Rogue One were mediocre, not good not terrible movies in my opinion. But The Last Jedi was much much worse. I hated it. I think it starts with the bad acting, the ridiculous flat characterizations, the nonsense plots, the wrong tones and terrible attempts of comedy. But what I really hate the most are the messages these movies are trying to convey. They are evil and I want them be recognized that way.
There’s no good and bad anymore. (Kylo/Rey, Benicio del Toro’s skepticism)
It’s better to be obedient and submissive than to rebel against orders that make no sense to you, because if you don’t follow orders things can go worse. Trust the system.
There’s no point in sacrificing for others, like Finn tried. Or like Rey tried,
This is the stuff that really bothers me. I was watching a Chinese movie last night called Curse of the Golden Flower, and it was a beautiful movie, but the plot was complicated with all kinds of twists and betrayals, but I always knew how the ending was going to go because you know the Chinese government is only going to allow a certain message to get out in movies. The rebellion is going to be put down. The wise Emperor knows more than everyone else, don’t question his judgement, and he has a secret army that comes out of nowhere to defeat the evildoers who plot against him and the State.
Some people believe Star Wars is about lightsabers and Jedi, The Force, X-wings and Imperial ship designs, John Williams music, and notes George Lucas scribbled on napkins decades ago, among other things. But I think really, the Original Trilogy was about resisting against an established tyrannical order- a group of friends who sacrifice for each to fight evil and oppression in the name of freedom. They resist. Loyalty to each other and a good moral compass leads them to defeat evil and save the galaxy and their own familial relationships.
Meanwhile, there was a trailer shot of Rogue One last year where Jyn Erso said something like “Isn’t this a rebellion? I rebel.” And it was cut from the movie. Now there is no good and evil in these movies. And there are hidden messages like you pointed out, there characters are secretly telling the audience “do as you are told, the people in power know more than you”.
These are very dark times for Star Wars movies. /mad
I don’t know why you guys can’t get along though even if you have different opinions about the movie. It’s better to see civil discussions and disagreements.
If these guys aren’t all being sucked out into space, then a similar emergency field around a small door isn’t a stretch.
Seriously people, we’re nitpicking movies where you can hear sounds in space.
They can have shields that allow for open air on the exterior of the Death Star. Its’ that way when the Falcon lands in the first movie too. But in general I agree with your point, the scientific stuff doesn’t need to be nitpicked as long as its not obvious and really dumb. For instance, the asteroids in the asteroid field would never be that close together in real life. And when the Millenium Falcon flips and spins like it does when it turns around on Bespin, all of the occupants would be thrown around and probably incapacitated if not killed.
In some ways RJ wants to have his cake and eat it. Snoke has to be super bad, far more powerful than Palpatine, but he has to go out like a chump. He remains a sort of copy of Palpatine, only to be replaced by his less capable luitenant. Somehow TLJ still feels like an alternate universe version of the OT, rather than it’s own thing. I personally wish they would have sticked with the theme TFA introduced for Kylo, and extended it to Snoke, to provide some proper motivation for Kylo to replace Snoke, and make Snoke more interesting, and not just another evil dark side user.
In TFA Kylo is revealed to be somewhat of a poser. What if Snoke had been the same, a sort of Wizard of Oz character, a small alien character with a limited knowledge of the Force, convincing everyone around him he’s this all powerful Force user through smokes and mirrors, really using Kylo for his power? This would provide Kylo the motivation to turn on him, and replace him, and would really set the FO and it’s origins apart from the Empire. A group of posers, who’ve slowly turned into this real threat, ultimately led by the grandson of Darth Vader. Just a thought to really separate the FO from the Empire using a common theme for Kylo and Snoke.
This was a cheap imitation of a Star Wars movie. TFA wasn’t the best movie ever but it was good in some spots. This one was horrible.
The other thing I’ve noticed with these new movies is they forget to show not tell. The way they did Luke’s character is such a drastic change, but they figure they can just tell you that’s the way it is and give a cheap flashback without showing a well developed story arc on screen. Kylo is Han and Leia’s son but they never have any scenes together. Just trust the writers and the director because they said he’s their son.
I dislike how pedantic these new movies are. It comes across as amateur hour. If they want to convey a message (even a political one), they need to carefully craft it through a well developed story and well developed characters. But the writing is so lazy and pedantic its impossible for me to see these movies as anything more than cheap knock-offs.
The Last Jedi feels like it’s a delibirate “screw you” to The Force Awakens, in the way that it handles the big mysteries it set up, and the fact that it’s not even remotely derivative of TESB. I say go see it. It’s a very different experience.
I think it was a big “screw you” to all of Star Wars, not just TFA. This movie was a mix of prequel trilogy with burn everything down because we want you to watch 100 other Star Wars movies that have nothing to do with the OT. It was an abomination. 😦
But you can’t ever really say you like or hate a film unless you saw it. So I don’t know.
“In time, you’ll be able to fly in space, just as I have.”
haha
Aside from hugging for a few seconds during Yub Nub, there are no other scenes with Luke and Leia together between this one and when Luke goes off to hide and die on a remote planet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYX_PgorRY
That’s a really wide gulf story-wise with no explanation except gee I’m a bad teacher and I tried to kill one of my students and then he burned down my temple.
😦
There’s plenty of room for civilized debate on a movie, but some people just want to watch the fandom burn it seems.
I don’t want to see the fandom burn. I want to see this terrible movie burn.
I think there is a difference between someone who is defeated and broken, and someone who has just turned into a cynical IDGAF asshole.
I haven’t seen TLJ and won’t, and the same will hold true for the Han Solo movie and Ep. IX. People are free to doubt my commitment if they so wish; the world will go on regardless.
What made you avoid this film? After seeing TFA? After the trailer for TLJ? The reviews?
Reviews and general spoilers. Luke is my favourite SW character, and honestly his characterization in ROTJ – the promise that he would go on to recreate the Jedi Order – is essentially the only major thing I liked from that film. It’s bad enough that TFA introduced the concept that Luke’s nascent Jedi Order was eradicated by his own nephew, but I could’ve lived with it if Luke kept his head up and kept on truckin’. Instead he runs off to hide and wallow in self pity while the galaxy deteriorates in his absence. To me that is complete and utter character assassination; I refuse to dignify the movie’s existence by watching it.
Yeah that’s a pretty fair reason. Even though I’ve defended a bit in this thread of Luke’s portrayal in TLJ, I still think there’s a stronger case for criticizing how they did Luke here. A broken Luke totally sounds interesting to me, and it’s something I didn’t even think I wanted until I saw TLJ, but they really didn’t make the story flow right to sell the idea, sadly.
I don’t think Luke was broken in this movie though. It was more like he just said screw everything, it’s all lies, I hate all of this stuff. Bye.
TavorX said:
What I DO have an issue with is that Rey has very little conflict character wise. Her fast Jedi leveling-up would be fine if she had stronger inner conflict.Agreed.
One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).
There’s a screenwriting guru who says this is the generic bad female script example. Female protagonist spends 120 pages trying to solve everyone else’s problems. Generic bad male script example is the spy or action type where everyone is double crossing or triple crossing each other and trying to kill each other. There’s that in TLJ too.
Just a terrible script. I wonder who mostly wrote or signed off on it?
Now some media outlets seem bent on painting the movie as a failure. 😕
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/last-jedi-daily-grosses-are-swiftly-collapsing-the-worst-holds-of-all-9-star-wars-movies/#45b4568355c1
savage
Thanks Harmy!
For me these Sequels I don’t like and think they take away from the OT. i.e. won’t be able to get them out of my head when I watch the OT. But I’m hoping at least a few years after Episode 9 is done that I’ll be able to put 7-9 in a “box” and be able to ignore them when watching the OT. As that’s what I have to do with the prequels when watching the OT.
The only good thing about Lucas’ complete rejection of the unaltered trilogy is that, as a fan, I see that trilogy as being in a completely separate canon. I think this hit me when Sebastian Shaw got edited out of the Force Ghost scene. I realised that the prequels simply weren’t telling the story of the elderly Anakin that I grew up with (who Lucas himself had described as ‘being in his 60s’ back in ‘83) but a ‘revised’ version of the OT where Anakin was much younger. The more Lucas tweaked the originals to fit his prequels, the more I realised that this was a separate story - a kind of alternate SW universe. Lucas’ (and Kathleen Kennedy’s) complete refusal to acknowledge the original movies as canon only solidifies this.
With TFA my ‘head canon’ was on the fence a) because I wasn’t sure about this new series yet and b) because Abrams famously said that ‘Han shot first’ (which means that, irrespective of the party line at Disney, he was seeing his film as exisiting in that original universe). So at that point I had to acknowledge that we can all take our SW canon a la carte. Even though TFA referenced ‘balance to the Force’ and ‘Clone troopers’, I felt that those references were vague enough to not necessarily be direct PT references as such.
I have to admit Luke’s referring to ‘Sidious’ in TLJ changed this for me. We’re in PT canon now as far as I’m concerned, which is okay because I don’t really like TLJ anyway. So as furious as I am that George Lucas has loudly declared the original movies to invalid, this only serves to preserve those movies in their own little canon bubble. Which is fine by me because when I watch them, I don’t feel remotely inclined to imagine a universe full of midichlorians, Jar Jar Binks, an idiotic Jedi council, or Mary Poppins Leia.
I agree with this. I consider the OOT separate from everything else. The prequels are not Star Wars. The Disney movies are not Star Wars.
We haven’t heard mention of Wedge Antilles either. I’d like to see Wedge come back and help recruit new pilots or something.
They apparently offered Lawson a part in TFA - undoubtedly as one of the Resistance officers. He turned it down because he thought the part wasn’t big enough, which I find odd considering the size of his roles in the OT.
I heard Wedge was going to have the role that Lor San Tekka eventually had. Wedge would have had the piece of the map and it would have been really cool to see him pass it on the the next generation X-Wing pilot. Also he had a connection to Luke we saw on screen.
Lawson said it would have “bored him” to return. I guess he might regret being a part of a 2 billion box office picture, it would have led to exposure and possibly more job offers.
Although I would have liked to see Wedge in the new movies, perhaps money isn’t everything for some people. And that’s a good thing.
I might be alone in not caring much about RT ratings and whether studios, critics, or audiences are gaming the system…
I don’t care about scores, there are so many bots on social media now it’s probably gamed both ways. I just pay attention to the theater I was at and the communities I belong to and see what other people have to say.
OT great, OOT even better.
The Force Awakens and Rogue One pretty meh.
Prequels really bad.
The Last Jedi literally the worst.
I think it’s time to put away the tinfoil hats and doubt anyone does “review bombs” or whatever they are called. Studios are in a constant battle to win the PR war and they do everything they can to mitigate bad publicity about their movies. If the critics give bad reviews, then there are suddenly news stories about how Rotten Tomatoes is not reliable and hurting the movie industry. If fans give bad reviews, then suddenly its bots and trolls making the score look bad.
I can say that when I watched in a packed theater on opening night, I didn’t hear any cheering or excitement. During the Canto Bight animal sequence, when they were running through the casino, about half a dozen people got up and walked out. Probably just to use the bathroom or get popcorn, but still nobody liked that entire portion of the movie. On a couple of other non-Star Wars forums I visit, almost everyone dislikes the movie. Couple of positive reviews here and there but mostly nobody liked it. On Star Wars forums it’s a mixed bag. Some people like it some people hate it. Just my experience.
I really like in the RLM review how they point out Force Yoda acts like fake Yoda from ESB. He was acting crazy to test Luke but when it’s time for the movie to get serious, he starts acting serious. In this movie he acts weird and crazy just to yak it up for the audience, which I found really unsettling too.
I think many elements in the movie are mocking Star Wars. One line that really sticks out as mocking Star Wars was Luke saying “laser sword.” I wanted the world of Star Wars to take itself more seriously, that’s what makes it feel real even as we see questionable physics and crazy aliens.
It’s even worse because the emperor mocks Luke’s lightsaber in ROTJ. But in ESB, Yoda conveys the same message by simply saying “your weapons, you will not need them”.
It’s as if one character is a good guy with a good character, and the other one says the same thing but he’s evil and does it in a goading manner to elicit negative emotions. So why would you make Luke act like the emperor instead of the wise, paternal Jedi master?
I really question if these new people even understand Star Wars besides basic branding at all.
Mark Hamill quote:
“I said to Rian, ‘Jedi’s don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup. But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong. So, right there we had a fundamental difference, but it’s not my story anymore. It’s somebody else’s story – and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective. …That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars, so I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker. He’s not my Luke Skywalker, but I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well.”
This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:
Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676
I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.
I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.
In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot more here that is important to learn than in the OT, if anything.
NFB, I didn’t mean to ignore you. I can see your point of view as possibly being between mine and Adywan’s. Maybe for you the movie doesn’t seem cynical, but I can’t imagine a Star Wars world where Luke Skywalker is hiding from his friends and letting them die and saying the Jedi need to die out. That is the opposite of everything he did and believed in during the OT.
Even Mark Hamill said he disagreed with everything he was asked to do in this movie.
- Rey being a strong female lead
What’s new about that ? Leia and Padmé were leads as well (and I would say better leads since in TFA Rey doesn’t take a single decision… in TLJ the character is better but it’s not yet enough).
Luke Leia and Han were the three amigos in the OT but it was Luke’s story, right?
I think it’s great to see a girl in Luke’s role for the new trilogy and have the guys be the supporting cast. Also to have a female Jedi lead. But I’m really disappointed they’ve done such a poor job with her character. They gave her everything she needed from the beginning of the first movie. She hasn’t had any challenges or difficulties.
Her story is now coming across as: so-and-so as a problem, and here is perfect Rey to help them sort it out. And these two characters have a problem, and Rey is going to help them figure it all out. Perfect Rey is going to help Luke make sense of his inner demons. And she’s going to save Kylo from his inner demons. And she’s going to bring these friends together, and those friends together. I think this is turning into the anti-feminist manifesto.
I would really rather have seen Rey be a character who has strengths and weaknesses, someone who has to struggle but also achieves important successes. Someone who grows and changes gradually throughout each movie and over the course of the three movies.
