Density

Anyway, all this talk about Disney possibly releasing just a 2011 upscale or some kind of bastardized hybrid with a 4K scan from Reliance Media just really, really sucks. I really do not understand at all why they would do this now that George is out of the picture. Doesn’t make any sense at all to me. They said they wanted to satisfy the fans when they took over, right?

The good news is that Star Wars fans are a particular bunch; the existence of this website is proof of that. So while studios may be able to get away with releasing cheap 4K upscales for lesser films, Star Wars fans may not so easily abide by that. I can also tell you that regardless, even fans beyond this website will make plenty of noise if they yet again release the SEs without the OOT. It’s getting ridiculous at this point. Combine that with the 40th anniversary and they just might do it. They might be saving it as a surprise, they might release it all together Blade Runner style. I really don’t care how they do it so long as they do it.

DuracellEnergizer said:

I wish there was a way to resurrect Walt Disney and put him back in charge of the company. Maybe then the OOT (not to mention all the classic animated Disney films) would get the proper restorations they deserve.

Well, if the legends are to be believed there might be…

Really though, what’s wrong with the classic animated Disney films? (Besides Song of the South.) I’ve seen a couple on Blu-Ray and they looked stunning to me.

I think the fact that they’re going to have to release it in 4K is enough to justify an OOT release. Can’t get away with selling the SEs alone again. Plus I thought that the 2011 version doesn’t even exist at that high resolution? I thought the last scan in 2004 was just done at 1080p/2K, and then the effects done digitally from there?

That means they either have to just release the 97 SE from a new 35mm scan, do another scan and butcher everything by re-doing the effects, or just do what everyone wants and restore the OOT already. Worst thing they could possibly do is try to get away with doing a lousy upscale of the 2004 scan with the 2011 effects. The fans aren’t going to tolerate that though so I doubt they’ll do that, and given all this talk about Reliance Media it seems like 4K scans might already exist anyway so that’s probably not happening regardless of whether it’s SE or OOT.

I don’t see why some people are so adamant to deny obvious racial stereotypes. It’s only NOT racist if you want to believe it was as far as I’m concerned. It’s pretty fucking obvious. It doesn’t destroy the artistic merit of the film, but it’s just willful ignorance to deny it. The fact that the crows are portrayed positively doesn’t change it either. Uncle Remus is portrayed positively too. (Which is why my entire point was that one is no more offensive than the other and both should be released.) You may just say it’s “stereotypical” along the lines of Asians being good at math if you prefer rather than “racist,” but I don’t see a valid argument that the crows aren’t racial caricatures. It doesn’t offend me, it’s just the way it is and a product of its time.

MalàStrana said:

Density said:

The crows in Dumbo

Could you explain why this is racist ?

Their speech patterns and mannerisms are obvious caricatures of black stereotypes of the era. Since they were done by white actors it’s basically “black-voice” instead of black-face, but it’s no less racist. One of them is also named Jim Crow. Someone at Disney clearly thought it would be funny to make the “Black Crows” black caricatures.

I just don’t get the deal about this movie. The crows in Dumbo and especially the “What Makes the Red Man Red?” song in Peter Pan are at least as racist as anything in it, yet those movies are considered beloved classics that get all the works in uncensored re-releases and are still shown to children to this day as if there is nothing wrong with them. Yet Disney tries to act like this film never existed… while at the same time one of their most popular and beloved theme park attractions built decades afterward is a shrine to it? Talk about mixed signals!

Seriously, I get they’re afraid of the controversy and I get not wanting it to be shown to young children removed from context, but that doesn’t excuse not releasing it at all. Make it a limited release, stick a warning label on it, market it to adults, film a disclaimer intro with Leonard Maltin or better yet a prominent African-American, include a documentary examining the film’s historical context. If they can find a way to put out those WW2 propaganda shorts (which are WAY more racist) to collectors for the sake of historical preservation, which was an admirable thing to do, there is no excuse to not do the same thing with this film. If nothing else, it is insulting to the memory of James Baskett to bury the first ever Academy Award winning performance by a black man. It has enormous historical significance for that reason alone.

Yeah no. The 2004 Emperor looks MUCH closer to the ROTJ Emperor because he is the real Emperor played by the same actor. Of course it’s not going to be exactly the same cause it was done over 20 years later but it’s still far, far closer than an old woman with chimpanzee eyes. Sorry, that’s just not gonna cut it. What you say about it being the “original” pretty much confirms what I said about nostalgia being the only reason to prefer it. So yeah, I get how that might pull you out of it more if you’re really that much of a purist, but to me it pulls me out way more knowing it’s a totally different actor and different everything. It’s not the Emperor I know, it’s just wrong. Besides, Palpatine was the best part of the prequels so I don’t mind the prequel connection here. Not that it is much of one considering, of course, McDiarmid was in the next movie anyway. And I don’t mind that he doesn’t look exactly like he did in ROTJ cause, again, out of universe it makes sense and in-universe you could just say that the Emperor changed up his style a little in between films, or it looked different cause it was a hologram. Either way, better than old woman chimpanzee with weird voice acting that sounds nothing like him.

Wazzles said:
I hate the 04/11 emperor

I really don’t understand this. The old Emperor was just awful, it was the worst part of ESB and it stuck out like a sore thumb when viewed with the rest of the series. Literally the only possible reason I can imagine for preferring the chimpanzee-eyed old woman over Ian Fucking McDiarmid is nostalgia. That’s it. I mean seriously, ask yourself: If it was the other way around, would you still prefer the chimp Emperor? Hell no, you’d think it was among the most outrageous of all SE changes. Let’s not kid ourselves. If that was the only change George made, that would have been just fine with me.

TV’s Frink said:

Lord Haseo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Lord Haseo said:

MathUser said:

Maybe his species just has yellow eyes, like cats.

He’s human

Interesting theory.

Near humans didn’t come into existence until way the fuck after ROTJ so if we’re talking in the context of only the OT you would have to assume he’s human.

There’s nothing in any of the films that indicates that anyone is a human.

Apparently Jabba is “a wonderful human being.”

The answer is clear in the movies. Exposure to the Emperor’s lightning kills Vader. He couldn’t channel it through his suit. Even if he could use it, there’s not really any part of the movie it would be necessary for him to do so anyway. I always just figured the force choke was more of his signature move, lightning the Emperor’s.

I don’t get this talk about “prequelization.” The entire point of the SE was George attempting to “update” the originals to better tie into the imminent prequel trilogy in terms of visual effects, story, overall tone. There would have probably not been any SEs if there were no prequels, as he only made them to fit with his constantly changing “vision.” In 97, the prequel trilogy was not only planned, it was already in production. The fact that it wasn’t released yet is completely irrelevant. The SEs have been inseparably tied to the prequels from the very beginning. Someone already mentioned the ghost Anakin, that and the Emperor hologram for the 2004 DVDs were both done during the actual production of ROTS. The fact that ROTS was not released yet has zero relevance to the fact that George was clearly thinking ahead to after it would be released and was thus tying it into the rest of the trilogy.

It would have been pretty ridiculous to see a 53 year old man try to play a baby.

I’ll dissent somewhat and say that if I had to choose, I would go with the 2004/2011 versions (for all except Jedi). Why?

• Han and Greedo shoot at pretty much the same time, blink and you’ll miss Greedo shooting at all and you no longer have to see that TERRIBLE head dodge effect.
• CG Jabba was terrible in 97.
• New Emperor is an improvement.
• Luke scream was present in 97.

Jedi though I’d have to take 97 because the most noticeable changes–Hayden ghost and Vader NOOOO–are so terrible. Oh and Jar Jar in the victory celebration sequence. But then, Jedi is the most ruined one in any of them because of “Jedi Rocks” alone anyway. And I don’t care for the new ending/song either, with or without Jar Jar.

I actually think a Boba Fett movie set after Jedi would be good. Since it’s canon that both he and now Mace Windu survived their apparent deaths in the movies, I think it would be fitting for him to hunt down a reclusive Samuel L. Jackson in a Tarantino-style revenge movie. That’s the only way this could be all that interesting to me.

That is the only way to fix the prequels.

Really, though, I’m just not a big fan of prequels in general so I never thought this was a story that even needed to be told. There are two problems common to all prequels:

1. You already know how the story is going to end. Not only does this make for some pretty unsuspenseful watching, the fact that it HAS to end in a set spot and things HAVE to play out a certain way to be consistent also limits the filmmakers’ options greatly, and thus the films inevitably feel much less creatively inspired than the original films did.
2. You will constantly be comparing the events of the prequels to your own ideas of how they played out in your head. Usually your head wins out, and that was especially the case with Star Wars.

Lord Haseo said:
ESB has a better written script, is better paced, has way better acting and dialogue.

I don’t agree with this at all. SW/ANH is perfectly paced, ESB lags just a tad in the mid-section in comparison. The script is also tighter in the original. The script is textbook execution of its genre in how it sets up and resolves its story, introduces the world and characters, etc. And no, ESB is not “way” better in terms of acting and dialogue. Better overall, yes, thanks to Kershner’s direction, but it’s really not all that different in most respects. There’s some clunkers in there worse than anything in SW. (“Two fighters against a star destroyer?”) ESB is great and arguably better, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not in a different league on these fronts like some make it out to be. Both have their merits and both have points that they excel over the other in. I will say this for SW, though: It’s the only one that works as a single film. ESB literally requires you watch what comes both before and after it to get the full story.

The official site isn’t canon? How’s that?

The “Bring my shuttle” change is a real shame, because if it wasn’t for that I would say the ESB SE is universally superior to the theatrical cut and an example of how to do an SE right. The changes range from largely subtle enhancements that blend in seamlessly like the Cloud City visuals to big (but actually improved) updates like the old woman/chimpanzee Emperor hologram being replaced by Ian McDiarmid. If that one line (and the extra shuttle footage that was the reason it was changed) was not changed, and the other two films were altered with as much restraint, then I would prefer the SEs across the board. Still not an excuse to bury the originals, but it would make for solid director’s cuts worthy of being the standard.

I always just thought the Emperor was really old, possibly corrupted by power and the Dark Side, kind of like that guy in the Lord of the Rings while he’s under a spell, and that’s why he looked like that in ROTJ.

But given what happens in ROTS, there are two fairly convincing theories I’ve heard:

1. Palpatine had been disguising his “true form” somehow with some kind of force spell or something, and that was washed away by the lightning.
2. The lightning has a more damaging effect on Sith than it does on Jedi, or that it somehow takes a toll on its user that causes it to have much more severe impacts if it rebounds.

Yes, but I’m just trying to explain why Laserdisc and DVD don’t have the same quality. As I said, DVD has about 500 “lines of horizontal resolution” and Laserdisc has 425. Both are technically 480 as are all standard NTSC sources, even VHS, but that only refers to visible scan lines. It’s not useful information when comparing image quality.

SilverWook said:

Just because somebody accidentally necro bumps a thread doesn’t mean you need to follow suit.

No, but my not giving a shit how old a thread is and never understanding why so many forum users always bitch about “necroing” threads, yet also bitch when people make new threads on the same topic, does.

Star Wars destroys Star Trek. TNG never fails to puts me to sleep, and TOS is campy as hell. Never even seen the others. Frankly, and I’m sure I would be shot by Trekkies for saying this, the first time I’ve genuinely enjoyed Trek is the JJ movies. Sue me.

The Blu-ray changes are mostly subtle compared to the DVD changes. Off the top of my head:

• Obi-Wan has a new (and ridiculous) shout to scare off the sand people.
• R2 hides from the sand people behind a new CGI rock. How he got behind it is anyone’s guess.
• Han and Greedo shoot at or nearly exactly the same time now. (Easily the best change, though it also makes you wonder why Greedo still shoots at all because George’s initial “reasoning” that Han was only shooting in response to Greedo’s shot is out the window, cause if they shoot at the same time that means Han would have shot regardless of whether Greedo shot.)
• The door to Jabba’s palace has been digitally expanded to appear more imposing, but also looks odd and distorted and doesn’t really fit with the interior shots.
• Sebulba is now digitally inserted into Jabba’s palace to further piss off prequel haters.
• The Ewoks now blink, which somehow looks much creepier than the still eyelids they had before.
• Vader screams “NOOOOOO” twice while killing the Emperor in George’s biggest “fuck you” yet to his fans. This was obviously done solely out of spite due to the fact that people mocked the “NOOOOO” in ROTS, which is probably the same reason Greedo still shoots and Jar Jar is in the ending celebration.

Those are the ones you’re most likely to notice. I’m not sure if anything at all was changed in ESB from the DVD to Blu-ray, certainly not anything notable.

Wazzles said:

MathUser said:

I probably waited too long cause I don’t believe it has any special features besides commentary. I would have liked that and also the original versions. I bought those dvd’s years ago but I no longer have my collection from then. Anyway, looking forward to seeing the movies again. Now I don’t have to wait for someone to buy the tv rights for them in the US or for them to come on Netflix. I never seen the Blu-Ray versions of the movies. Looking forward to the terrible extra no’s in ROTJ.

The extras are pretty good actually. Of course it’s lacking all of the extras from previous DVD releases, but it makes for a good supplement to the DVDs.

If he just got the OT though, which it sounds like, then I’m pretty sure it only comes with the commentary tracks. No documentaries, no deleted scenes, etc. You have to buy the prequels too to get those.

I think both SW/ANH and ESB have cases to be made that they’re the best. It depends on what criteria you’re judging by. I don’t think ESB being “darker” or more of a character study automatically gives it a win any more than SW being the world builder or original means it’s better.

For me, SW’s biggest advantage from a filmmaking perspective is that it is perfectly paced. It is textbook setup and execution of plot, the result of which is an endlessly rewatchable film. It’s also just plain fun. It manages to, in a very short time, create characters that you really get attached to and really get invested in their fates. And, yes, it sets up an entire universe extremely different from our own with wild alien creatures and something mysterious called “the force” in a clear and natural way, so that it really feels like a living and breathing world. It really transports the audience to another world and captures its imagination like no film before or since ever has, and that right there is the key to its success. There is certainly something to be said for that.

Weak spots are typical for Lucas: Dialogue and acting. Though I think the missteps in both are highly overstated. It actually has a lot of great dialogue and acting, particularly from Ford, Guiness, and Cushing. But there are WTF moments as well (I’m looking at you, Leia’s weird English accent), though we’ve all come to love them of course.

ESB’s biggest advantage is that it raises the stakes in an extremely gripping way. It manages to avoid all the pitfalls sequels are typically prone to. It isn’t simply a repeat of the first film, it doesn’t feel tacked on or pointless. It genuinely feels like a natural, exponential continuation of the first film. It makes the characters and their motivations deeper and more human. We got to know and care about them in the first film, but now we really see them as fully fleshed (and flawed) people rather than simple caricatures or archetypes. Even (especially) the villain. It also throws the characters into challenging situations and, by extension, it challenges the audience. It’s not a simple story of good triumphing over evil this time. There are moments that will make you feel genuine doubt about the outcome and terror for the characters’ predicaments. And, yes, the twist ending was iconic on many levels.

Biggest flaw is that it still can’t overcome the inherent problem with being the middle film in a trilogy: There is no beginning or resolution. It doesn’t provide any sense of closure at all, ending on a cliffhanger. You have to watch the next film to get the whole story, and the first film to have any sense of what’s going on in the first place. It’s almost unfair to fault the film for this, as there is pretty much no way around it (though I will say that I think The Dark Knight managed to pull it off), but that doesn’t change the fact that it can’t work as a standalone film the way Star Wars can. I could sit down and watch SW over and over again, feeling completely satisfied from start to finish each time, but in order to watch ESB I’m going to have to commit to also watching the other two films in order to have context. I’m probably not just going to watch or rewatch it by itself. Also, compared to SW, the pacing drags a bit in some of the middle sections. Not much, but some. It feels like a longer movie despite being the same length.

Overall, which one I think is better depends on my mood. I will say that SW makes me a lot happier when I watch it, but ESB gives me a deeper sense of “damn this is good.”