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Creox

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29-Dec-2017
Last activity
19-Apr-2023
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233

Post History

Post
#1245727
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

Yeah, a creative person can call their creation whatever they like, that does not mean it does not fit nicely in an existing genre.

He can and he did…That being said I would add a little more emphasis to his decision to call his creation that then some anonymous guy on the internet defines it. He wasn’t a rookie when he made SW and had been immersed in movie making and its history for some time. IOW he certainly knew what he wanted to call it.

Post
#1243024
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

I understand your point but when one engages with the life force of an object we cannot move spaceships, influence thoughts or communicate over hundreds of thousands of miles (as in hearing their voice in your head) in reality (even improbably). It would be impossible, which places it firmly within fantasy.

You can apply your ideas about “magic” being science with Gandalf to some extent if you try harder.

You are ignore a century of science fiction full of force like abilities. You are also using the hard science fiction parameters instead of the general science fiction parameters. And the thing you can’t do with Gandalf is say how he does it. There is zero explanation of his magic. Ben starts to explain the force and Yoda further explains it. Most magic is not explained in fantasy and is left mysterious and magical whereas in science fiction all such powers are explained in some way. When you tell how the magic works, it isn’t magic any more.

Is the “force” really an answer to how the Jedi get their power? I mean, it’s an answer to be sure but no different imo than saying it’s “magic”.

“The force is an energy that exists in and around all things.”

“Magic is a force that one taps into that exists since the beginning of time.”

Sounds pretty similar and one that you could mold any way you want.

How to describe gasoline in fantasy: a mysterious liquid that you put in your car and it makes your car go when you turn it on.

How to describe gasoline in science fiction: a liquid refined from crude oil which was originally swamp plants burried in the ground for a million years.

How Tolkien describes magic in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings: … he doesn’t.

How Lucas describes the force in ANH: The force is what give the Jedi his power. It is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.
How Lucas describes the force in TESB: Life creates it, makes it grow. It’s energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you…me…the tree…the rock…everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!

In fantasy, powers just are. In science fiction they must be given a reason. That reason may be tenuous and might be as simple as just saying a character is a telepath, but in fantasy while a given character might be given a reason they can use magic, the magic itself is left undefined. That reason vs. just being is one of the main differences between science fiction and fantasy and horror.

Good vs. evil is another. Fantasy tends to take the evil and personify it and make the good vs. evil an epic battle. Science fiction, if it deals with it, internalizes it. Good or evil is in each of us and we choose which path to follow. The force has a light side and dark side and it is up to the individual which path to take. There is no evil force horde. There is no light force to come and rescue you. Even Palpatine had to make that choice and he choose great evil and has made the practice of subverting others (not so much making the choice for them as persuading and coaxing). The nature of good vs. evil in Star Wars is exaggerated, but follows the real world where in fantasy it would have been expanded and the stormtroopers would have been an extension of the evil as the Orcs and goblins were in Tolkien. Instead they are pattered after (and named after) Nazi soldiers.

I think it is a tenuous set of differences. My point is the force is described in very vague and wide sweeping terms. It could be virtually anything…just like magic.

My point was that science fiction will describe things, even vauguely where fantasy doesn’t. Fantasy might go into detail about how to cast a spell, but not about how the magic actually works. Space Opera sometimes gives you vaugue descriptions that are just enough to make it seem plausible. Compare Ben’s description of the force to Han’s description of hyperspace. Very similar. But Star Wars never describes what hyperspace is with words, they do show it, something they can’t do for the force.

I understood your position. I just don’t subscribe to it completely.

Post
#1242903
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

I understand your point but when one engages with the life force of an object we cannot move spaceships, influence thoughts or communicate over hundreds of thousands of miles (as in hearing their voice in your head) in reality (even improbably). It would be impossible, which places it firmly within fantasy.

You can apply your ideas about “magic” being science with Gandalf to some extent if you try harder.

You are ignore a century of science fiction full of force like abilities. You are also using the hard science fiction parameters instead of the general science fiction parameters. And the thing you can’t do with Gandalf is say how he does it. There is zero explanation of his magic. Ben starts to explain the force and Yoda further explains it. Most magic is not explained in fantasy and is left mysterious and magical whereas in science fiction all such powers are explained in some way. When you tell how the magic works, it isn’t magic any more.

Is the “force” really an answer to how the Jedi get their power? I mean, it’s an answer to be sure but no different imo than saying it’s “magic”.

“The force is an energy that exists in and around all things.”

“Magic is a force that one taps into that exists since the beginning of time.”

Sounds pretty similar and one that you could mold any way you want.

How to describe gasoline in fantasy: a mysterious liquid that you put in your car and it makes your car go when you turn it on.

How to describe gasoline in science fiction: a liquid refined from crude oil which was originally swamp plants burried in the ground for a million years.

How Tolkien describes magic in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings: … he doesn’t.

How Lucas describes the force in ANH: The force is what give the Jedi his power. It is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.
How Lucas describes the force in TESB: Life creates it, makes it grow. It’s energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you…me…the tree…the rock…everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!

In fantasy, powers just are. In science fiction they must be given a reason. That reason may be tenuous and might be as simple as just saying a character is a telepath, but in fantasy while a given character might be given a reason they can use magic, the magic itself is left undefined. That reason vs. just being is one of the main differences between science fiction and fantasy and horror.

Good vs. evil is another. Fantasy tends to take the evil and personify it and make the good vs. evil an epic battle. Science fiction, if it deals with it, internalizes it. Good or evil is in each of us and we choose which path to follow. The force has a light side and dark side and it is up to the individual which path to take. There is no evil force horde. There is no light force to come and rescue you. Even Palpatine had to make that choice and he choose great evil and has made the practice of subverting others (not so much making the choice for them as persuading and coaxing). The nature of good vs. evil in Star Wars is exaggerated, but follows the real world where in fantasy it would have been expanded and the stormtroopers would have been an extension of the evil as the Orcs and goblins were in Tolkien. Instead they are pattered after (and named after) Nazi soldiers.

I think it is a tenuous set of differences. My point is the force is described in very vague and wide sweeping terms. It could be virtually anything…just like magic.

Post
#1242834
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

I understand your point but when one engages with the life force of an object we cannot move spaceships, influence thoughts or communicate over hundreds of thousands of miles (as in hearing their voice in your head) in reality (even improbably). It would be impossible, which places it firmly within fantasy.

You can apply your ideas about “magic” being science with Gandalf to some extent if you try harder.

You are ignore a century of science fiction full of force like abilities. You are also using the hard science fiction parameters instead of the general science fiction parameters. And the thing you can’t do with Gandalf is say how he does it. There is zero explanation of his magic. Ben starts to explain the force and Yoda further explains it. Most magic is not explained in fantasy and is left mysterious and magical whereas in science fiction all such powers are explained in some way. When you tell how the magic works, it isn’t magic any more.

Is the “force” really an answer to how the Jedi get their power? I mean, it’s an answer to be sure but no different imo than saying it’s “magic”.

“The force is an energy that exists in and around all things.”

“Magic is a force that one taps into that exists since the beginning of time.”

Sounds pretty similar and one that you could mold any way you want.

Post
#1242784
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

How could you possibly think the Force is simply a way to have telepathy, telekinesis and ESP?

Ben Kenobi from Star Wars, Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back, and Luke from The Last Jedi specifically say that it is not, and Luke directly chastizes Rey for assuming that it is.

The question is not about how it is written. The way Lucas crafted the Force encompasses ESP, meditation, samurai training (trust your feelings), and be one with nature. But the things you can equate with magic are all standard ESP based science fiction tropes. And when you look at how the force is described - every living thing has an energy field. And not just living things, but rocks, ships, planets, etc. - what you get is something that you can find in science.

Isaac Asimov addressed this layering in Foundation’s Edge in 1982. It is based on the Gaia theory (for which he named the planet and can be found in detail here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis). Asimov had his characters propose to extend this to the galaxy. But in Star Wars this very thing already exists on a weak level (the Force in Star Wars is no where near what Asimov came up with at the end of Foundation’s Edge). Couple that with ESP (telepathy, telekenisis, teleportation, mental projection, conjuration, and more) and you have all the components of the Force and force powers. And while not widely accepted as solid science, these have long been staples of science fiction. You have an energy field created by everything in the universe and then a way for some to tap into that energy field and use the power to do things. Again, nothing new or unusual for science fiction.

I understand your point but when one engages with the life force of an object we cannot move spaceships, influence thoughts or communicate over hundreds of thousands of miles (as in hearing their voice in your head) in reality (even improbably). It would be impossible, which places it firmly within fantasy.

You can apply your ideas about “magic” being science with Gandalf to some extent if you try harder.

Post
#1242749
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

(and Star Wars has no aspects or tropes of fantasy)

Blatantly untrue.

Name one trope that is fantasy that isn’t better fit with a space opera trope?

Despite your refutations the force is not a version of ESP. It is a power one taps into external from yourself. It is a vast power encompassing the universe. This is pure fantasy.

Much of SW IS space opera…of that there is no doubt but there are fantasy elements throughout it.

Post
#1237381
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

NeverarGreat said:

Plinkett’s Last Jedi review has inspired me to re-evaluate what makes Star Wars work so well, and it lead me to realize that Star Wars '77 has, in many more ways than a normal movie, the form and function of a dream.

Consider that Star Wars perfectly captured a moment in the American zeitgeist of the hippy counterculture rebelling against the establishment machine, using visual references drawn from sources that lingered in the subconscious of that generation. Metropolis, Flash Gordon, WWII propaganda film - all these things were at least a generation out of date when Star Wars premiered, ensuring that while the references would be felt, they would not draw undue attention to themselves.

Consider also the simple and efficient plot populated with archetypal characters that resonate with people of any time. Any specificity in the film is a reference to an unknown, alien technology or knowledge structure, anchoring the film in a timeless void where everything is approachable and everything is endlessly immersive.

Finally and most importantly, consider that the characters and the director construct the myriad conceits of the movie in complete earnest. Nowhere is there a wink to the audience to let them know that they are in a movie, never is a threat taken lightly. When Leia begins to treat her oppressors with mocking disdain, they are quick to destroy her entire planet.

These things all conspire to immerse the audience in what can only be described as a movie equivalent of a dream.

Now compare this to The Last Jedi, which although it goes some way in grounding itself in the visual references of the past, has no interest in generating or sustaining immersion in the audience. This fact above all else is, I believe, why so many in the audience failed to connect with it - The Last Jedi finally awakened them from the seven film dream.

I kind of see what you are trying to say and I’ll have to sit down to watch the Plinkett review sometime soon. That being said, I can honestly say I enjoyed TLJ more than most of ROTJ. Ewoks seriously took me out of the immersion. They are warriors that look like cuddly teddy bears that the main characters see as harmless comedic relief and they are certainly taken lightly in that regard.

For me, SW was a movie very much of the time it was made in, obviously. It was pushing the envelope with visuals and the story was basically the hero myth surrounded by a space western. Many of the facets of SW was a homage but when put together ended up being fresh and new. I liken IV to the Beatles in the sense that their talent came at the right time in the right place. There is no doubt imo that they are one of the greatest bands like SW is one of the greatest movies. But place their birth ten years later and I think things would be quite different. They would still be great but not as unique.

Finally, movies are just made differently now. TLJ is a sign of the current reflection of that in many respects. I am a middle aged male who has seen social media become close to intolerable for me. Outside of well moderated blogs like this is a sea of anonymous hate and personalization of every topic I can think of. SW is treated no differently now. There were those who really did not like ESB when it came out either and there were the vocal critics who were only heard because someone put a microphone in their face when they came out of their theater. I don’t think those folks would be as caustic as today if twitter and Facebook existed then…Maybe I’m naive but I can recall very clearly when my first foray into social media happened and I ran into the first trolls. I was genuinely shocked as if the the person was standing in front of me calling me a “F’n piece of shit” or some other off the cuff insult. Just because I dared to feel differently then they did.

All of this is to say that TLJ and TFA (the latter to a lesser degree because it didn’t even think of breaking the mold) are a sign of the times that have less to do with their respective stories but more to do with us out here watching them and how we communicate (as to your thoughts on why TLJ was less liked than the OT). Social media has become a double edged sword that has changed people in some pretty frightening ways.

Anyway, this post went longer than I first thought it would and in directions I didn’t anticipate. LoL.

Cheers.

Post
#1236978
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

Again, we know this. Everyone in the galaxy should know this, since they lived it for a thousand generations. Furthermore, the audience knows this. That’s one reason (beyond the execution) that the Leia scene and the Casino planet rankles some people I expect - these are things we already know and are on board with, delivered in so slipshod a way as to actually do harm to the narrative and make the audience question their acceptance of these things.

It might give some that feeling, but that is not what I got out of it. I find the Leia scene to be important and enjoyed the casino planet as something new and different and yet at the same time a call back to the original cantina scene - only this time the scum were well dressed. There really isn’t anything about TLJ that I didn’t enjoy. The flaws of TFA are gone or ignored and the end product is something I can enjoy watching over and over again. Best Saga movie since 1983. I think the story is well written and the film well directed.

I first found the Casino scenes a bit disorienting but on second viewing I warmed up to it. It also broke up the space chase which would have been boring to watch for 30 minutes with cut scenes from TFO and the resistance.

I really liked the Leia scene in that it demonstrated a powerful force user react purely out of survival instinct. Thinking back on it I wouldn’t be surprised in Rian filmed it that way to pay tribute to Fisher.

That scene with Leia was one of the earliest things leaked about the story so I doubt he changed it along the way.

Interesting…regardless, I did not find it offensive or disorienting or out place etc etc.

Post
#1236821
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Jay said:

Creox said:

My last words on the topic is that there will always be such issues from time to time because, as you say, film makers borrow all the time from each other. It is my hope that they will take a little extra time to minimize the potential problems their creations can produce.

It’s my hope filmmakers set those concerns aside rather than compromise their creativity in order to satisfy white people who see racism everywhere.

I’ll defer to Dom since he’s the OP, but perhaps this discussion is better suited to the culture/politics thread than this one:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Culture-politics-and-diversity-in-Star-Wars/id/61333

I will check out that link…thanks. FTR I think you’re off base with your assumption but so be it.

Post
#1236570
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

Really? This guy? I don’t see how he even even barely resembles Gunray. The voice is wrong, the intonations are completely different, and Gunray actually does the grammar properly whereas Chan skips entire words.

LoL…I realize that. That’s why I said a “really bad” attempt of the character. My point is that Gunray sounds very cliched as an Asian speaking English. The Chan character was played by more than a couple of actors just an FYI. He was played by white guys for the most part just as Gunray was played by a white Englishman.

Look, it’s obvious we have kind of met in the middle. We both agree none of this was intentionally racist or even a good example of stereotypes in some cases. The issue for me is that enough people like myself have seen these movies and did see some quite startling stereotypes that made us uncomfortable.

My last words on the topic is that there will always be such issues from time to time because, as you say, film makers borrow all the time from each other. It is my hope that they will take a little extra time to minimize the potential problems their creations can produce.

Post
#1236405
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

OK, this was kind of long and rant-y, but what I’m trying to say is that the PT accents are such a vague hodgepodge of sounds that I fail to see how they can represent any specific language in an intentional and “insensitive” manner.

And yet…I do see it and hear it. So do many others who have made their thoughts known all over the internet. I understand you and Dre quite well and really do see your side of this debate. I also can appreciate how something vague can be interpreted in many different ways. That being said, enough of us have noticed this since the TPM and the rest of the PT first showed. I haven’t talked about it in years and only brought it up here because someone else had mentioned it. In my recent trip online I have found a lot more people actually think as I do and explain it better than I have.

Some I disagree with. I agree with you that most of the trade delegation don’t sound Asian. Gunray sounds like a really bad Charlie Chan imitation…yes, it’s that bad to my ears. I don’t think Jar Jar is this quintessential black sounding and acting character but he has definite attributes that are cringe worthy. The worst by far for me in Watto. They doubled down on his image in the second film and added a Hasidic hat and beard. He sounds JUST like an old Jewish caricature. There is NO way that someone at LA could have looked at Watto in AOTC and not seen that…no way. Does that mean I think it was meant to be racist? No but definitely insensitive or unthinking.

Just a small example…check out the live action tag under “film” for more on SW. These guys are pretty even handed and make room for other thoughts on the subject.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceJews

Post
#1236399
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

I understand what point you are trying to make but it doesn’t ring true for me. I know the cloud is not Winnie the Pooh…but anyone who has ever seen the character would immediately recognize the formation as that bear in a heart beat. Many who have seen and heard a racist stereotype of an Asian or Jew would recognize and have recognized Watto and the Neimoidians. Jar Jar is less recognizable as a single stereotype but enough of one that many people see it and have commented on it. Fetchit reflects part of his demeanor, speech and gait but his accent strikes me as mostly creole tbh. I think Lucas was genuinely taken aback by any criticisms in this regard and appeared pretty pissed off about it understandably but that doesn’t mean the stereotypes are not visible and audible to many people.

Regardless, how one thinks or interprets an image or portrayal is an important aspect of art compared to how that image or portrayal was originally intended. It is arrogant imo to suggest that what people see and hear is “not there” though, Dre. To me they are as obvious as that bear looking EXACTLY like Pooh. I am truly puzzled how these caricatures got by the the design team and Lucas, frankly. I just think they were a bit lazy in trying to come up with these characters and/or thought using cliches would send the message they wanted with respects to who the villains were, who the sidekick was…who knows. I don’t think there was any conscious effort to appear racist but insensitive? Yeah.

To me anyone is innocent until proven guilty, and pointing to some circumstantial evidence and fitting it into a narrative whilst ignoring evidence supporting the opposite viewpoint simply doesn’t cut it. The fact is, it cannot be denied, it is possible, that these similarities are simply coincidental. In such circumstances the only sensible thing is to consider the people accused of committing this “crime”, and to see if the accusations fit a historic pattern. Given Lucas’ and his collaborators historic record and their statements on this matter, I think it is obvious, that it does not. Additionally one should consider the context in which these alleged racial stereotypes are placed. Historically racial stereotypes served a purpose, and were used to promote distorted images of groups of people, or reflected certain biases and prejudices that people had about these groups of people. So, for the characters in Lucas’ films to fit the definition of racial stereotype it is not enough to point to some similarities, it should also be obvious that Lucas intended to promote distorted images of blacks, Asians, and Jews, or that these characters reflect biases and or prejudices, he has towards these people. Again there’s simply no evidence for this, in fact quite the opposite. Lucas is known for his left-wing politics, and is married to black woman. His best friend Steven Spielberg is Jewish. He created Star Wars in part as an analogy for the evils of the Vietnam war. It doesn’t seem logical for a person of his background and beliefs to perpetuate racial stereotypes about blacks, Asians, and Jews. As such, I can only conclude that those eager to convict Lucas are the ones who are biased by their dislike of Lucas’ new brand of Star Wars to the point, that they ignore any evidence that points to a different conclusion.

I’ve never said Lucas was a racist. I am very puzzled why someone, somewhere at LA did not notice this stuff. Simply unbelievable imo. If the coincidences are just incidental then whoever signed off on this stuff was plainly not doing their job.

Post
#1236373
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

You’re missing the point. Looks like and is are two different things. The cloud looks like Winnie the Pooh, because we through our history associate the shape with Winnie the Pooh, but the cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh. The cloud doesn’t look like Winnie the Pooh by design. It’s just incidental. In the same way some of us see racial stereotypes in some of Lucas’ characters, but that is not the same as them being racial stereotypes. The characters don’t look like racial stereotypes by design. It’s just incidental. We think we see a pattern, but it isn’t there. We think we see Winnie the Pooh, but it’s just a cloud that for no reason whatsoever shares some similarities with Winnie the Pooh. To me those here that try to convince me, that Neimoidians are Asian, and Jar Jar a black dude, are trying to convince me that the cloud is actually Winnie the Pooh. The fact that some of these characters share some vague similarities with racial stereotypes (along with plenty of differences) doesn’t make them racial stereotypes.

I understand what point you are trying to make but it doesn’t ring true for me. I know the cloud is not Winnie the Pooh…but anyone who has ever seen the character would immediately recognize the formation as that bear in a heart beat. Many who have seen and heard a racist stereotype of an Asian or Jew would recognize and have recognized Watto and the Neimoidians. Jar Jar is less recognizable as a single stereotype but enough of one that many people see it and have commented on it. Fetchit reflects part of his demeanor, speech and gait but his accent strikes me as mostly creole tbh. I think Lucas was genuinely taken aback by any criticisms in this regard and appeared pretty pissed off about it understandably but that doesn’t mean the stereotypes are not visible and audible to many people.

Regardless, how one thinks or interprets an image or portrayal is an important aspect of art compared to how that image or portrayal was originally intended. It is arrogant imo to suggest that what people see and hear is “not there” though, Dre. To me they are as obvious as that bear looking EXACTLY like Pooh. I am truly puzzled how these caricatures got by the the design team and Lucas, frankly. I just think they were a bit lazy in trying to come up with these characters and/or thought using cliches would send the message they wanted with respects to who the villains were, who the sidekick was…who knows. I don’t think there was any conscious effort to appear racist but insensitive? Yeah.

Post
#1236254
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

SilverWook said:

Creox said:

SilverWook said:

Looks more like a WWI helmet or a hubcap to me. YMMV.

Like this guys hubcap?

You guys are sure going out of your way here.

It’s open to interpretation. I have a hard time believing anybody working on the prequels would deliberately use a Jewish stereotype as a greedy alien junkyard dealer.

I don’t think there were either…FTR. I just think they were using images and cliches that they thought would help tell their story. They just should have done more thinking before they finalized it. It was bad enough that many people thought the same as I and that’s a few too many don’t ya think?

Post
#1236253
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

ZkinandBonez said:

Creox said:

snooker said:

Supposedly Watto’s accent is ‘Italian’

0_O

There are a few Mario-like stereotypical intonations in Watto’s speech. Even his word ending can cone off as stereotypically Italian.

The real problem with the PT accents is that there’s only so many sounds and intonations to take from, so it’s bound to resemble something.

I’m sure Ahmed Best added some of his own to Jar Jar. Then Brian Blessed interpreted Best’s accent with his own deeper voice, which results in intonations and inflections that can come off as cartoonishly Jamaican at times. Gen. Tarpals actually sounds Japanese at times. His tone of voice and inflections sound very Samurai-like some sentences, then suddenly the dialogue takes on certain South African-like sounds. Seriously, listen to Tarpals first few lines in TPM. It’s a hodgepodge of several accents.

You make a good point but what it illustrates to me is that Lucas and his design team were using cliched sounds and images to reflect a villain or hero etc that ended up not being the sum of what they wanted. There is no doubt in my mind that the trade federation species used Chinese/Japanese traits in language, dress, gait and manner when being created. Not a mirror image but (like Jar Jar) an amalgamation of them to create an alien species. Watto is so Hasidic looking in that bearded picture with his hat that Lucas Arts should have discarded the idea just out the odd chance someone would notice the similarity. Again, not a mirror image but enough traits of cliched stereotypes as to be very noticeable.

Post
#1236251
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?

Humans see patterns in things that simply aren’t there. It is our nature.

Is the cloud deliberately or subconciously attempting to look like Winnie the Poo, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder?

Actually that is a cloud that looks very much like Winnie the Pooh. Not sure how that helps your case.

Post
#1236249
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

ZkinandBonez said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing. They also bow a lot, mix up their I’s and R’s. Sound familiar? C’mon guys.

Most characters in the prequels bow a lot, including the Jedi and the senators, so the Neimoidians are hardly unique in that aspect (they bow very little, and not very far down, compared to the humans overall). And quickly scanning through their scenes in TPM I couldn’t find a single moment where they mix up their J’s and R’s.

I’m not saying that there’s not vaguely Asian characteristics to the accents. Their tone of voice has similarities to traditional Samurai, or Edo period characters in general. Some of the enunciation are also similar. But to say that they walk like Geishas, have Asian-looking eyes,Asian facial features, that they represent duplicitous yellow peril stereotypes despite their made-up alien look and behavior, is just plain odd to me. If they had long nails and fu-manchu mustaches, then I’d agree that they were blatant stereotypes.

Like I said, there are some Asian similarities, or rather influences when they made the accents, but I have to agree with DreDre that the extent to which people go to compare them to Asians, or specifically Japanese (or in some cases Chinese), seems to be quite a stretch. I have the same problem with how people perceive Jar Jar. He’s become a perceived amalgamation of several contradictory stereotypes; based on very different cultures and accents.

If you truly don’t see it then fair enough. I think it is a glaring and obvious collection of traits but each to their own subjective experience.

Post
#1236231
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

ZkinandBonez said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color.

That’s a bit of an odd statement. They are all ‘people of colour’, yes, but Indian, Jamaican and Creole are three very different cultures with noticeably different accents. I fail to see how Jar Jar can be a stereotype of all three at the same time.

Creox said:

The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Bulbous fish-eyes hardly make them look Asian. “Walk around like Geishas”? That’s a really weird comparison. can’t say I’ve seen a lot of Geishas walking around, but that’s not a comparison I’d ever make. The Neimoidians are meant to be cowardly fish-men that walk around nervously with their hands in an awkward manner.

As I said, the Jar Jar stereotypes are an amalgamation of these different cultures. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Geisha was what I thought of first when I watched them walking, heads bowed, hands clasped in front. They obviously have Asian accents. This is not a vague comparison but quite glaring. They also pronounce their I and R in a way a cliched Asian person would talk English.

Post
#1236228
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true. It’s cherry picking. You ignore the alien on the left, and focus on the one on the right, because you believe, he fits the narrative, even though the visual similarity is tenuous at best.

Fair enough and i agree. You ignored the other criteria I was using to make my thoughts clearer.

Post
#1236226
Topic
Is <em>Revenge of the Sith</em> the Best or Worst Prequel?
Time

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

ZkinandBonez said:

“West-Indian accent”? I though Jar Jar was supposed to sound Creole. And previously in this thread his accent was described as resembling Jamaican. This is really why the Jar Jar criticism confuses me so much. People can never agree on how exactly he is offensive. Also this is literally the first time I’ve heard mention of Jar Jar’s “buttocks”, and what does that have to do with Indians?

Also when was “crafty Japanese trade villains” ever a thing? I’ve heard people make ‘yellow peril’ comparisons, but apart from the accent (which the voice actor based on Philippino I belive) there’s not much about them that resembles any Asian cultures. Not that I’m aware of at least.

LoL

Well, sure but the point is that Jar Jar sounds decidedly stereotyped in that fashion. Be it Caribbean or Jamaican they all have a very noticeable trait that is very much human being of color. The trade federation have very obvious, thick Asian accents with large slitted eyes…they walk around like Geishas with their hands folded in front of them. I took the “crafty” in that phrase to just illustrate they were stereotypes that were cast as villains. Nothing more. Yellow peril certainly would fit that stereotype.

Watto and Jewish is ( I hope) not in need of an explanation?

Large slitted eyes…that’s a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one.

Obviously Asian…

The alien on the right is definitely Asian in facial characteristics but that is not the only trait I’m talking about. At any rate it is not important for my basic premise to be true. Many thought similarly, including the persons in the piece I linked. All my friends felt this way at the first viewing.

Yes, but the fact that many thought similarly doesn’t make it true.

Really? How does that make sense? If one person or a few dozen thought this then you might have a case. The debate over this issue in general with the TPM and the PT is well known and well documented. As noted before, I don’t believe Lucas was going out of his way here but To say this has no legs is just false.

Watto in the next movie has a small beard and hat that looks decidedly Hasidic. Am I really just imagining this? Seriously?