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Channel72

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20-Jan-2022
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21-Aug-2025
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Post
#1531959
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

Did they actually visit Disney World in this latest episode? They found a planet that looks like Epcot Center or something, and has a monorail that takes you to all the attractions.

They also had two Mandalorians fighting on a freshly cut green lawn on a nice sunny day. I could just feel the parking lot right off screen. You just… can’t film Star Wars like that.

This series is really getting out of control.

Post
#1531012
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

This latest episode had the kind of simple, straightforward Star Wars plot that I feel should be the focus of a show like this. It would have worked nicely in Season 1: “Space pirates invade defenseless town, authorities are useless, so they call in lone gunmen to come clean up.” But unfortunately, in Season 3 this story is couched within a larger messy narrative that detracts from the simple charm it should have. (Plus the space pirates need the cheese factor dialed down by 20 to 30 degrees. Remember when Star Wars criminals spoke in alien languages?)

Also, given the lawless environment the show portrays here, it seems naive of Greef Karga to think he can build a colony with no protection without so much as some kind of anti-spacecraft defense system at least.

Plus, lately there’s so many annoying little details that constantly distract me while I’m watching. With almost every action scene, jet packs are never utilized in the most obvious, advantageous ways called for by the situation. And the plot often progresses or connects A to B in extremely arbitrary ways. Like for example, why does that New Republic traffic cop guy think to go ask a random clan of Mandalorians for help? How does he even know them? He pulled over Mando for speeding a few times like a year ago - on Tatooine and the ice spider planet. Why would it even occur to him to ask Mando for help with something like this? How would he know Mando has access to a squad of elite commandos? He claims he was able to find them because he knew that R5 droid? What does that even mean? Whatever.

I feel like there’s a lot of missing connective plot tissue. In the trailer they show this cool dog fight over rivers and ravines, with TIE fighters chasing Mandalorian fighters. In the actual show, when we see this dog fight, it just occurs out of nowhere with no real context or setup. It’s like a cool fan film designed to be watched as a clip on Youtube, instead of something integrated into the story.

Post
#1530901
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

I never liked the Prequel Jedi doctrine forbidding romantic relationships. For one thing, nothing in Star Wars before the Prequels ever suggested this idea. Sure, in Empire Strikes Back Yoda tells Luke that his Jedi training is more important than loyalty to his friends. But these were dire circumstances. We can’t extrapolate from this that official Jedi doctrine forbade romantic attachments. I mean certainly not after Mara Jade showed up. (I know that wasn’t Lucas, but whatever).

The Jedi order was originally suggested to be something like a cross between mythologized versions of Samurai and Arthurian Knights - an order of elite warriors committed to serving the Republic. With the introduction of Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, the original warrior/soldier Kurosawa stuff (“General Kenobi in the clone wars”) was downplayed in favor of an emphasis on meditation and self-defense. Elements of Taoism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism were mixed in. But even though some forms of monastic Buddhism have traditions of celibacy, this isn’t mandated, and there was nothing in Star Wars to suggest it anyway. Of all Anakin’s sins, it was never suggested that getting married and having children was one of them.

Post
#1530718
Topic
What changes would you make to the Sequels?
Time

I didn’t really like anything about the Sequels except a few very general concepts, which are: (1) A female Jedi protagonist with no family relation to any previous characters, (2) A defecting Stormtrooper as a main character, and (3) a Non-Sith order of Dark Side users called the Knights of Ren, that use blasters as well as lightsabers.

I’d take these basic ingredients and merge them with an extremely simplified version of the Thrawn trilogy adapted to incorporate the new characters, with the OT characters in supporting roles, and replacing Jorus C’Baoth with the leader of the Knights of Ren (who could still be Leia and Han’s son). I also don’t like the name “Rey”, so I’d use Rey’s original name which was Kira.

Episode 7 would begin with the New Republic as the dominant galactic power, and we’d get to know the new characters. The story would revolve around an old star-map that Kira finds in the ruins on the junkyard world where she lives. Except this map is not “a map to Luke Skywalker” (which never made any sense). Rather, it’s the location of the former Emperor’s secret storehouse on Wayland. Episode 7 would end with Leia commanding a fleet that defeats Thrawn over the planet Wayland, but Thrawn secretly found what he was looking for in the Emperor’s storehouse. And Kira would go off to train with Luke.

Episode 8 would have an A-story about the race to find the lost Katana fleet (which in this version is a secret experimental fleet developed by the Empire comprising thousands of Star Destroyers that are networked together enabling them to be remotely piloted and coordinate automatically), and a B-story about Kira training with Luke. It would end with Thrawn victoriously gaining control of the Katana fleet, with the implication that he can now conquer the New Republic.

Episode 9 would be about the battle to retake Coruscant, with Luke’s new protege now a fully-fledged Jedi.

I’d probably still have Han Solo die, but in Episode 8. Luke and Leia would both survive, and Leia would become the Chancellor of the New Republic at the end of Episode 9.

Post
#1530655
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

On paper, the Prequels are a better story than even the Original Trilogy. The Prequels have an outright amazing story - a darker, more sophisticated and tragic tale of friendship and betrayal set against the backdrop of the fall of a great civilization and the rise of a totalitarian dictatorship. I’m getting excited about this story just typing out that description.

But somehow, the actual implementation was so severely botched in so many intertwining ways that the incredible story ended up buried under layers of mediocrity and incomprehensible creative decisions.

I mean… it’s really amazing to think about. Let’s start with the basic premise: “A young Obi Wan Kenobi meets ace pilot Anakin Skywalker, who becomes Kenobi’s star pupil and close friend. The two head off to war together on a Crusade to save the Republic. But along the way, Anakin is tempted by power and betrays his mentor as the Republic crumbles and the Jedi are hunted down.”

Holy shit, this story sounds AMAZING. Now let’s examine George Lucas’ thought process in actually writing and implementing this epic Shakespearean saga:

  1. Okay firstly, let’s spend a whole movie with Anakin as a 10 year old kid. I know he’s supposed to be this awesome star pilot when Kenobi meets him, but… you know we can just make him a pod-racer. That’s close enough. We can always establish the Anakin/Kenobi friendship later.
  2. Actually, let’s forget about Kenobi for now. Let’s focus on a completely new character, Qui Gon Jinn, who wants to train little Anakin due to some prophecy I just made up. We’ll make Kenobi kind of apathetic towards Anakin. We can always build up their friendship later.
  3. I know this whole thing is a tragedy, but let’s go for a much lighter, juvenile tone, and add in a goofy cartoon lizard for extra laughs. This way I can showcase those new 3D rendering algorithms ILM just developed.
  4. I know the story was supposed to be about Anakin and Kenobi going off on a Crusade together, but you know we’ll just put that off for now. We’ll make the story about this evil shipping company that invades a planet to somehow lower their taxes, and the good guys need to stop them.
  5. For Episode 2 I guess we need to have something with the clone wars. I probably should have started that in Episode 1 but I’m sure we’ll have time.
  6. So Anakin is a teenager now. But he needs to be really moody and kind of psychotic so the audience understands how he could turn evil.
  7. Okay so Anakin needs to fall in love with Luke’s mom somehow. The only possible way to write that is to send them off together alone to a really romantic Italian villa. So we’ll have Anakin off on a romantic getaway with Luke’s mom, while Obi Wan goes off to discover the clones.
  8. This separates Anakin and Obi Wan for most of the movie, but I’m sure we’ll have enough time to establish their close friendship in Episode 3.
  9. Okay so with Episode 3, we’ll establish the Anakin/Obi Wan friendship in the opening act. I guess I should have done this earlier, but I’m sure the audience will get the idea.
  10. I need Anakin to turn evil somehow. Wait… I guess he’s already kind of evil because he killed those Tuskens, but now he’s a good guy again, so we need to get him back to being evil.
  11. So Anakin has this dream that Luke’s mom is gonna die, and then Palpatine comes along and tells Anakin he knows of some Sith magic that can save her. But the only way to make it work is to go on an extended killing spree and murder pretty much everyone you’ve ever cared about (except Padme). This murder spree also includes slaughtering a Jedi kindergarten class.
  12. We’ll throw in a philosophical discussion about how the Jedi and Sith are similar in certain ways, so the audience can buy into Anakin actually doing this.
  13. Now Anakin and Obi Wan need to have a really emotional climactic fight. We didn’t really build up their friendship that much, but we can compensate by putting in this really awesome lightsaber fight where they fight over lava and John Williams comes up with another incredible score and lava is flying everywhere and stuff is collapsing all around. It will be awesome, trust me.

And… that’s how you take an absolutely incredible premise and implement it in the worst way possible.

Post
#1530637
Topic
What is going on at lucasfilm cancelled un canceling cancelled Star Wars films and announced new Star Wars films.
Time

I’ve read so many comments online lamenting how the Sequels ruined Star Wars and all that. This is kind of funny to me, because I’m like, yeah welcome to the club. I don’t like the Sequels either but from my perspective, Star Wars was pretty much irrevocably damaged in 1999. Truthfully, at this point Star Wars is like 90% crap, with A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back really standing out as the only truly great movies. But despite this, every now and then a small miracle occurs and we get something like Andor, which apparently was written by people from a different Universe where entertainment companies actually give a shit about story and writing. I still can’t believe that show is even real.

Post
#1530365
Topic
What is going on at lucasfilm cancelled un canceling cancelled Star Wars films and announced new Star Wars films.
Time

I think it at least partially reflects the fact that there is a general lack of direction because the initial “long term plan” didn’t pan out. My guess is that back around 2014/2015, Disney saw the Sequel Trilogy as a means to reboot Star Wars for a new generation and pave the way for endless stories to come. This may seem paradoxical, since The Force Awakens was obviously meant to appeal to OT fans, and early plans for “spin-off” movies all revolved around OT story-lines or characters. But evidence of a broader, long term move towards a “rebooted” version of Star Wars is apparent in the fact that Disney designed their expensive Star Wars theme parks around Sequel Trilogy elements and iconography, instead of doing the obvious thing like creating a real life Mos Eisley Cantina that charges like $49.99 for a space cocktail. They were betting that emphasis on the Sequels would pay off in the long term, as a new generation fell in love with the new rebooted form of Star Wars, paving the way for endless new stories for years to come.

But… it seems this just didn’t work out. After the strong performance of The Force Awakens, Disney saw diminishing box office returns and developed the perception (whether true or not, and amplified by the most prolific posters on the Internet) that Star Wars fans were bitterly divided. When the Solo spin-off movie resulted in a net loss, they perhaps interpreted this as confirmation of their perceptions of the fan base. (Also Episode 9 was just ridiculous.)

I think this left Lucasfilm/Disney in a position where they are extremely hesitant and undecided about the future direction of Star Wars. There seems to be this unspoken acknowledgement that they should steer clear of the Sequel Trilogy time period for the time being. Contrast this to back in the late 2000s when, despite vocal criticism of the Prequels, George Lucas didn’t care and just created more and more content set in the Prequel Trilogy era. Disney has opted to do the opposite and pursue the safer (from their perspective) route of mining nostalgia with OT-centric stories.

Post
#1530207
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

StarkillerAG said:

“I’m haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that that kiss will not become a scar.”

This is without a doubt the greatest dialogue ever put to the silver screen. George Lucas has an incredible gift for so accurately capturing the full range of emotion and experience that defines the human condition in his masterfully crafted subtext-rich screenplays, such as Attack of the Clones. Shakespeare is mere Elizabethan trash compared to Lucas’ unparalleled artisanry of the spoken word.

Spartacus01 said:

I honestly doubt that a virgin teenager, which is romantically illiterate and who’s filled with a lot of repressed sexual desires would act like a charming young man, it’s totally unrealistic. And I know that, because I had to deal with the same problems a lot of times during my teenage years.

Yeah, but like… nobody wants to see this. And there’s no reason Anakin had to be written this way. Lucas decided to portray the Jedi as a weird cult that suppresses familial bonds and romantic attachments, but there’s no reason they had to be written that way. I always imagined Anakin as this well-adjusted, somewhat brash ace pilot. Not “roguish” like Han Solo, but just confident and principled. Yeah, it’s just my personal preference, but I would argue that this portrayal would benefit the story way more than what we got, because the entire point of Anakin’s arc is that he was supposed to be a good man who fell from grace. But the Prequels instead portray him as this emotionally unstable hormone explosion with homicidal tendencies from the very moment we first meet him. (Not counting Episode 1, which features an entirely different Anakin.)

Lucas seemed to think that portraying Anakin initially as this cherubic, innocent little child would produce such a stark contrast with Vader as to sufficiently fulfill the “fall from grace” narrative. Except the whole point of a “fall from grace” narrative is to track the character transformation as it plays out via personal choices. A little kid doesn’t even have a brain developed enough to make any dramatically interesting choices.

Michael Corleone would have been a useful model when writing Anakin, in a broad sense. I wouldn’t want Anakin to be as serious or as emotionally reserved - I mean it’s a Star Wars movie, it needs to be snappy and upbeat most of the time. But Michael Corleone provides a good template for the general arc required here - somebody that makes a series of individual choices, initially with honorable intentions, but slowly becomes more and more of a monster. Michael Corleone activates full Sith mode when he kills his brother-in-law and then coldly lies about it to his widowed sister.

But Anakin’s arc is also a bit different than Michael’s because Anakin ultimately has to be redeemed. Therefore he can only go so far in his evil antics, unlike Michael who can become irredeemable. Showing Anakin murder a group of little children is so over the top, and it really strains his eventual redemption. And yeah… obviously I know Vader must have done far worse things like probably ordering orbital bombardments that kill millions of people. But we never see any of that happen so it remains theoretical and therefore his redemption can still work emotionally. And Vader’s role in the destruction of Alderaan was passive, so we can sort of let it slide for dramatic purposes. But I mean, we can’t see him do things like murder little children, or sexually abuse someone or anything like that, because that would really make his eventual redemption emotionally untenable.

Post
#1529306
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

fmalover said:

Maybe someone else posted this before.

Din using the heavily modified Naboo N-1 Starfighter as his personal ship doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. If anything it would have worked better as a shuttle attached to his new freighter for reconaissance, as the N1 only has room for himself and a Yoda species at the back. Where would he fit anyone or anything else, be that cargo or a captured person for bounty? I also doubt the crammed cockpit of the N1 would make for a comfortable nap during long flights.

It seems like Din doesn’t really work anymore. Interestingly, there have now been TWO Star Wars live-action shows with a Bounty Hunter main character, yet surprisingly little bounty hunting ever occurs.

Post
#1529240
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

Servii said:
Maybe it’s realistic to real-life politics that the Republic made that mistake, but I’ve never bought the idea that Star Wars was a realistic political allegory. Besides Andor.

Probably not so realistic in most cases. After the USSR collapsed, the US military just continued to expand indefinitely. (Although the number of stockpiled nukes decreased.) I actually don’t know of historical examples of intentional large-scale demilitarization (apart from cases where a country is forced to do so, e.g. Japan after WW2).

Although, real world comparisons perhaps don’t work so well because in Star Wars there’s usually just one single Galactic superpower that controls almost everything (except for some nebulous “unknown regions”), rather than multiple nation states.

Post
#1529128
Topic
I don't think Revenge Of The Sith is as good as everyone says it is.
Time

G&G-Fan said:

The first half should be the beginning of the second movie, the second half should be the last half of the third movie, and there should be a whole movie in-between exploring Anakin’s turn, having him gradually be seduced by the dark side via the usage of Sith holocrons or something. Have him lose himself more and more in the war. Then have him turn.

Yes. Plus you need two full movies to develop a really close bond with Obi Wan, otherwise what’s the point of wading through all that lava in Episode 3. I really wanted ROTS to break my heart. But instead it just sort of made me mildly sad for a few seconds.

Post
#1529126
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

snooker said:

Of course the New Republic is better than the Empire but the upper class in Coruscant and the working class in the Outer Rim haven’t been made to notice. Nothing substantial has changed about their lives. The status quo is too strong. The New Republic hasn’t done enough to rid the galaxy of the Empire. Things aren’t improving enough.

In order to more rapidly rid the Galaxy of Imperial leftovers, it would help if the New Republic didn’t throw away all their military hardware for no reason. At this point in history, I would expect the New Republic to be very fragile, but in the new canon it seems like the Battle of Endor (or maybe the follow-up battle at Rey’s planet) was supposed to be this ultimate overnight decisive victory. (I forgot a lot of these details - but I remember also there was something about Palpatine being insane and having this automatic protocol that purposely sabotages the Empire in the event of his death.)

Post
#1529029
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

They definitely portray the New Republic as somewhat dystopian. I can’t tell if that’s on purpose for thematic reasons, or they’re just trying to copy Andor because that’s what’s hot with the kids these days. But seriously, the New Republic is a giant bureaucracy that allows forced medical procedures, calls ex-Imperials by an ID number, and has these eerie social worker droids that ask if you’re having thoughts of disloyalty towards the government. I mean… at least Tarkin let you know he was just straight up evil and enjoys blowing up planets. These guys pretend to be the good guys while lobotomizing people with “bad thoughts”.

Post
#1529018
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

G&G-Fan said:

Michael Corleone from The Godfather is a better young Darth Vader then the actual young Darth Vader.

The Prequels miss so much of the nuance that made Vader so great in the OT. His sadistic humor, his boldness, his cold, domineering presence, how calculating he was. In the Prequels, he’s a hot-head that flies off the handle. OT Vader got mad, but he wielded it like a blunt weapon. OT Vader is like Michael Corleone, but PT Anakin is like Sonny Corleone (at least in terms of temper; Sonny was never intolerably whiny). And that doesn’t mix. They’re two different characters.

If I wrote the Prequels I would have at least one scene where Anakin says “Impressive” and maybe another scene where he says “All too easy.”

I would have zero scenes where Anakin says “You will not take her from me!!!1!!”

Post
#1528945
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

I’m not sure how to feel about this latest episode. We finally get a good look at the heart of the New Republic, and it seems a bit corny and mundane. My preconceptions are heavily influenced by EU stuff where Chandrila was the New Republic capital, and there were all these politicians trying to make alliances and increase their fleets to fight Imperial remnants. In this version of the New Republic, it seems they’ve decommissioned the Rebel fleet, and are completely against using any Imperial technology. (Which is stupid, because Imperial tech is mostly just next generation Old Republic tech.)

Also parts of Coruscant feel somehow… cheap. The apartment complex looked like a parking garage. And it bothered me that when we see someone flying through the city in a flying car with no roof, there doesn’t seem to be any wind or loud ambient noise. It makes the whole scene feel very fake. At least the Coruscant chase scenes in Attack of the Clones gave off these atmospheric cyberpunk vibes. Here it just feels like a green screen.

Somehow, I feel like the best depiction of Coruscant was in this old test footage from like 2010, made for George Lucas’ planned “Underworld” show that never panned out. It had this really atmospheric, Neo-Noir vibe.

Anyway, this was a strange episode. I liked seeing the New Republic, but really not much happened. They spend all this time on this elaborate chase through a flying subway, and the payoff is simply that Dr. Pershing gets betrayed by his friend for unknown reasons. Apparently the New Republic also has no ethical problems forcing medical procedures on people, but whatever.

I also noticed that the “in Universe” music playing at that outdoor park/festival on Coruscant was the “Resistance Theme” from the Sequel trilogy.

Finally, while it’s generally always the case that the concept art they show in the credits looks better than the actual filmed scenes, the difference usually isn’t that great. This time, the concept art looked orders of magnitude better than the actual filmed scenes. I mean, the concept art for the Imperial lab looked very cool, but in the scene itself the lab just looked like a random room with some tables and bits of equipment strewn about.

Post
#1528906
Topic
Nice moves, old man
Time

I was rewatching A New Hope the other day (whatever version they have on Disney+, probably the 2019 version - which I realize does not help my “cred” around here). In the Cantina, when Ben and Luke first sit down with Han, the first line of dialogue is Han saying “Han Solo. I’m captain of the Millennium Falcon”.

This scene occurs shortly after Ben dismembers the “death sentence in 12 systems” guy (whom the EU decided was some kind of mad plastic surgeon), immediately after a very brief intervening scene showing Threepio outside.

Now, I somehow have this very clear memory of Han saying to Ben something like “Nice moves, old man - pretty impressive”, when Ben and Luke first sit down with Han and Chewie. I can hear Harrison Ford saying these lines in my head. But… Han doesn’t actually say this in the movie. I was wondering if he said it some earlier release. I checked the script, but it’s not in the script either.

On a whim, I decided to check the novelization. In the novelization, Han actually DOES say something like this. Right before saying “I’m Han Solo, Captain of the Millennium Falcon”, Han says “You’re pretty handy with that saber, old man.” That’s not quite what I remember, but it’s close.

So, my working theory right now is I must have read the novelization a long time ago, and formed this false memory in my head of Harrison Ford actually saying these lines. Still, I just thought I’d check with this site to see if there may be some earlier release or perhaps a deleted scene where Harrison Ford says this line or something similar to it, because the memory I have of this seems incredibly real.

Post
#1528804
Topic
How to Watch Star Wars, Part Two: The Special Editions Are the Movies, Get Over It
Time

Rick Worley represents a certain weird faction of Star Wars fandom that promotes the idea that pretty much any criticism of George Lucas’ creative choices is inherently invalid because “it’s Lucas’ vision, not yours.”

Somehow, people like Worley don’t seem to notice that this blanket criticism could be applied to any movie or director, rendering any criticism of any movie invalid. You think Plan 9 From Outerspace is a bad movie? Well just shut up, it’s Ed Wood’s vision, not yours.

It’s this general philosophy that a director’s vision is always sacred. But I suspect people that argue this don’t apply it consistently when it comes to stuff they don’t like. Worley will justify criticism of the Sequel Trilogy because JJ Abrams et al. weren’t the original creators of the IP. But I wonder if we’re allowed to criticize any of Ridley Scott’s crappy choices in films like Prometheus? He’s the original creator of the IP in that case, yet his latter films suck. Whatever, I guess Alien: Covenant is actually amazing because Ridley Scott created the IP and his creative choices are just too mind-blowing for my feeble brain to appreciate.

The other Worley-type argument I often hear is defending some commonly criticized aspect of the Prequels (e.g. cringey acting, bad love dialogue, etc.) by saying “George Lucas did that intentionally, because he’s a genius beyond your comprehension.” So the romance scenes in Attack of the Clones are actually brilliant - because Lucas was going for this 1930s stylized performance. If you find it painful to watch, it just means you’re too stupid to appreciate Lucas’ unfathomable creative genius. (This argument can be paraphrased as: “Lucas made it suck on purpose, therefore it doesn’t suck”.)

As for the Special Editions, honestly, I don’t necessarily care that much about the original theatrical releases. There’s a lot of stuff in the Special Editions that really sucks, but also some good stuff. But I can completely understand the sentiment that the original theatrical releases should be preserved in 4K for posterity, because (A) some fans would appreciate it and (B) it has immense value as historical media. I mean this isn’t that hard to understand.

Post
#1528792
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

StarkillerAG said:

Superweapon VII said:

I began dabbling in AI art this past September. It was a fun toy to play with those first few weeks, but it quickly lost its lustre. From the creative standpoint, I found it an incredibly low-effort, unchallenging, soulless exercise. Since then, I’ve only used AI-generated images as components in digital collages, as “pure” AI art does nothing for me as a creator.

I hope that’s how everyone else will feel, too. AI used to seem like the coolest thing ever to me, but as the luster of “cool new technology” faded away, it was replaced by pure existential dread. Already, the “human element” of art feels like it’s being replaced by soulless robotic perfection. We’re at an inflection point here, and we can either choose to preserve our humanity or sit back as AI lifts the burden of creativity off our shoulders. I sincerely hope we choose the former.

You know we won’t.

Post
#1528467
Topic
Reimagining the OT with more realistic space physics
Time

Superweapon VII said:

But there’s a thread on this site which makes a strong case that SW was never meant to be viewed as sci-fi, but rather Surrealist fantasy.

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-Wars-is-Surrealism-not-Science-Fiction-essay/id/82402

Viewed through that lens, the 2D space travel, human-piloted fighters, giant legged walkers, and other logically implausible elements SW is rife with don’t bother me so bad.

I agree Star Wars was never meant to be anything close to hard science-fiction. I mean, George Lucas basically just wanted to make something like Flash Gordon. But I would argue that Star Wars is, in fact, science fiction - at least partially. I realize the boundary between sci-fi and fantasy is fuzzy and often reduces to semantics depending on how you define “science fiction”. But I would argue that the key aspect that separates science fiction from fantasy is that sci-fi should include a plot or theme that explicitly highlights how some theoretical technology effects the world/characters. Star Wars has this. A major plot point of Episode IV is how the Death Star is a game changing technology that allows for complete authoritarian control. There’s also this underlying theme of man vs. technology, e.g. Vader (part machine himself) downplaying the Death Star, or Luke making the impossible shot without using his targeting computer.

I think Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi definitely have less of a claim to being science fiction, because that aspect of a game changing technology is either not present or not emphasized. Although, ROTJ still has the “man vs. technology” theme with the Ewoks, even though it’s not really presented very well in my opinion.

Post
#1528447
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

NeverarGreat said:

And all this is ignoring the argument for historical preservation and simple decency in preserving the work of those who originally made the films, such as the craftspeople who did the matte paintings and model work that has been simply erased.

Just out of curiosity, do you recall off hand what matte paintings or model work was erased? I thought I was pretty familiar with the Special Edition changes, but I can’t recall off hand any actual models or matte paintings that were erased. I thought the Special Editions mostly just added things, like adding additional frames (e.g. arrival at Mos Eisley) or inserting things into existing frames. I know they removed some frames of Stormtroopers getting shot, which sucks, along with various other tweaks ranging from irrelevant to dramatically harmful, but IIRC most (or all?) of the original matte paintings are still there (like the Death Star hangar bay, Yavin IV temples, etc.)

I agree with your general sentiment though. Perhaps the worst crime is that OG Sy Snootles and platinum disco hit single Lapti Nek are now lost to time… Sadly, Jabba’s palace has never regained that original level of sleaziness.

Post
#1527976
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

Emre1601 said:

Jon Favreau was doing a press tour for season 3 of The Mandalorian, and was asked about the original theatrical version of the Original Trilogy:
 

Moovy TV: “I know this is a bit of a ‘hot potato subject’, but don’t you have enough clout at Lucasfilm now to get the original theatrical editions re-released? I want to see Sebastian Shaw’s ghost in high definition!”

Jon Favreau: “Do you think anybody but us, the people who grew up with it, anybody would care? Because I know to younger people, that’s what I figured out, that the younger people have a whole different perception of what Star Wars is, each generation. For the millennials, it’s the Prequels. Zoomers, sometimes it’s The Clone Wars. I’ve seen people come up to Dave Filoni and that’s their entree into it.”

Favreau then brought the conversation back to The Mandalorian.
 

The video of the conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffbgwHqbdJ0 (1+ minute long)
 

What a disappointing response from him. I also found it a little narrow minded. That people from different generations do not want to watch releases from a different era? To not want to watch what their parents saw. Or to see what the original films were like? The version that won so many awards and changed special effects in films. Film history preserved?

And why shouldn’t older fans wanting to see that original version in HD or 4K be enough of a reason? Why not have the choice for fans to be able to watch all the different versions? Ugh.

Jon Favreau is kind of right though. I mean, I’m an older millennial that grew up with the OT. I saw the Prequels as a teenager and I hated them. They did not fit my perception of what Star Wars should be at all. But nowadays I’ve learned that many younger people see the Prequels as the reference point for what Star Wars is. I never thought that would happen, but here we are.

I do agree it would be nice to have the originals preserved in 4K, mostly for historical interest, to see exactly what 1970s audiences saw. But all of the shots that blew everyone away in 1977 are still there. That’s the irony of the Special Editions. Most of the added stuff ended up making the film look worse, because it looks like 90s CGI and thus aged worse than the original effects from the 70s.

Post
#1527745
Topic
Reimagining the OT with more realistic space physics
Time

Star Wars has been a massive cultural phenomenon for almost 50 years at this point. Regardless of the quality of any recent Disney productions, the Original Trilogy is likely to remain beloved and influential for another 100 years.

But I wonder… as the decades roll by, real world space travel may become more and more familiar to ordinary people. Even if the majority of humans don’t travel into space, general knowledge of space travel will likely become more widespread as corporations and governments send manned or unmanned craft into space for commercial or exploratory ventures. In the same way that early 1990s movies about the Internet or “hacking” now often seem totally ridiculous in light of widespread experience with computers, I wonder if basic knowledge of space travel will eventually have a similar effect on how audiences perceive Star Wars.

Now, I’m NOT talking about realism here. I’m not talking about things like sound in space, Faster-Than-Light travel, energy shields, Death Stars, or the fact that flesh-and-blood humans are involved in space combat in the first place. I think audiences will always be willing to accept the fantastic. But imagine a (non-science fiction) movie, set in the present day, that has a car chase involving normal every-day consumer car models, but all the cars in the film can somehow move sideways. Since the audience is very familiar with cars, everyone would be totally baffled by this unless some explanation was provided by the movie itself. It would be very odd if the movie required audiences to just accept this as part of the experience, because it’s not fantastic or mind-blowing - it’s just contrary to everyone’s day-to-day experience. Unless some explanation is provided, I think it’s easier for audiences to accept Superman and Deathstars than it is to accept a Honda Civic that moves sideways, because the latter falls into this “uncanny valley” of something ordinary operating in a way everyone knows it doesn’t, making the film seem weirdly out of touch. The scene in Empire Strikes Back where Han and Leia walk around inside the giant asteroid worm without wearing protective suits has this effect. It’s easier to accept the freaking GIANT SPACE WORM than it is to accept Han walking around in a vacuum without a space suit! We know the giant worm is a cool fantasy conceit - but Han walking around in a vacuum like that just makes the director seem clueless.

So I wonder how Star Wars will ultimately hold up in centuries to come, when iconic action scenes rely on the audience being totally unfamiliar with ordinary movement in space. Consider the Battle of Yavin - probably the most famous sequence in the whole Star Wars saga, where Luke pulls off an impossible shot at the last second, saving the day. The drama and tension comes from the fact that we all have a visceral understanding of how impossible this shot really is. Apart from the fact that many characters in the movie itself communicate this to us (e.g. Han Solo saying “Great shot kid! That was one in a million!”), we can see how difficult it would be to hit that tiny exhaust port while flying through a trench at insane speeds, while also being shot at by laser turrets and TIE fighters.

But… an audience watching this movie 100 years from now might feel differently. I think there are two main things about ordinary movement in space that go against our normal 21st century intuition: (1) objects in motion never slow down, they keep moving forever unless energy is exerted to decelerate, and (2) an object moving through a vacuum can rotate along its axis three-dimensionally without effecting the object’s forward trajectory or speed.

If this were common knowledge or experience, the Deathstar trench run might be viewed differently. For example, given the threat of enemy TIE fighters, why not have the X-wing pilots fly in pairs: both pilots fly through the trench, but one would face “forwards” and target the exhaust port, while the other would face “backwards” to fend off enemy TIE fighters and protect the first pilot. When Vader is pursuing those X-wings through the trench, any one of those X-wings should be able to rotate 180 degrees and fire back at Vader (while still moving forward through the trench).

Or consider that in the film, they fire proton torpedoes downwards at a 45 degree angle into the exhaust port. But why not do the following instead: When approaching the exhaust port, rotate the X-wing 90 degrees so its nose points downward facing the trench surface, then fire the proton torpedo directly downward in a straight line when passing over the exhaust port. This would require precise timing, but surely a targeting computer could do it. And you could have other X-wing pilots around to fend off TIE fighters when approaching the port.

Or… why even do the trench run at all? Just align an X-wing at a 90 degree angle to the Death Star surface and fly directly towards the exhaust port. Then fire torpedoes in a straight line into the port. Fire multiple proton torpedoes in case some are intercepted by laser turret fire, or first target the laser turrets themselves. You could fire the torpedoes from a great distance away. A computer-guided torpedo could hit the small exhaust port without a human pilot having to fly anywhere near the Death Star. Even in the 21st century, drones are capable of hitting precise targets from a great distance, while also dealing with the added complexity of flying in an atmosphere and gravity well. Targeting something in a vacuum would be much easier. The Battle of Yavin takes place in a vacuum with no significant gravity well (the Death Star is enormous, but still only about 140 kilometers in diameter, thus the effect of its gravity would be negligible).

To me, if experience with space travel became widespread, the Battle of Yavin would fall into that “uncanny valley” where something ordinary is portrayed in a weirdly incorrect way that feels lame or out of touch, like a normal car moving sideways or a computer virus in a 1990s movie. I wonder if the Battle of Yavin could somehow be reimagined to work with an updated understanding of movement in space, while still keeping the general premise of pulling off this “impossible shot” at the last second using the Force.

Post
#1527509
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

From what I understand from the trailers, this Season will somehow segue into a much larger plot arc about some kind of Galactic-level threat from a resurgent Imperial remnant. Obviously, saying anything more specific than that would just be speculation, but my conjecture is this means some kind of proto-First Order (I hope not), or some story leading up to Thrawn. I just learned that those weird space whale/octopus things imply a connection with Thrawn, but I haven’t seen most of the Rebels cartoon so I’m not certain. (The imagery of space whales seems wildly incongruent with the kind of military sci-fi vibes I remember from Zahn’s books). If these conjectures are even partially accurate, it seems this first episode is basically just filler. Also, it would mean the show is definitely moving away from its small-scale, lower key story-telling roots, which is kind of disappointing, and really doesn’t seem appropriate for this type of show. On the positive side, maybe a larger-scale story focus will distract us from the fact that Seasons 1 and 2 are now pretty much dramatically meaningless.

It’s strange - since I grew up with EU stories, I always imagined the larger scale events that shaped the Post-ROTJ era would involve Luke, Han and Leia. But I guess in this latest incarnation of Star Wars it’s going to involve Mando and various Filoni characters.

Post
#1527214
Topic
Has anyone Read the Book The Secret History of Star Wars by Michael Kaminski?
Time

I read it. It’s a great read that lays out Lucas’ evolving ideas about Star Wars and what his plans for the saga were at any given time.

When I was a little kid in the late 80s/early 90s, I recall somehow “knowing” that Star Wars was supposed to be a 12 episode saga (or was it a 9 episode saga?), and that Lucas originally wrote an enormous script, but originally only filmed the middle part of it (episodes 4-6). Kaminski’s book spells out, in painstaking detail, exactly when/where these ideas emerged, how accurate they were, and how, over time, Lucas changed his mind about various things but then basically tried to rewrite history Joseph Stalin-style by pretending that whatever he currently said about Star Wars was “the way it always was”.

Kaminski claims (with copious footnotes to back it up) that no such larger script ever existed. Only Episode 4 (originally just called “Star Wars” Episode 1) existed. However, it is true that after Star Wars was an unprecedented major success in 1977, Lucas announced plans to turn it into a 12 episode saga (meaning 11 additional movies). But the idea was that each movie would mostly be a standalone story, perhaps with a larger plot or theme tying the movies together. Then after Lucas rewrote the original script for Empire Strikes Back, and merged Luke’s father and Darth Vader into a single character, the 12 episode thing disappeared and now the official plans was a 9 episode saga. The 9 episode saga (ironically) was planned to be pretty close (very broadly speaking) to what we actually have today: Episodes 1 to 3 would be about young Kenobi, 4 to 6 about Luke, and 7 to 9 about some other Jedi character that was mentored by Luke (possibly the mystery person spoken of by Yoda in Empire Strikes Back when he said “there is another”, before that turned into Leia.) However, no actual scripts or plot outlines existed for any of these planned sequels. There were some vague notes or ideas for some of them (like Episode 1 to 3 would be about young Kenobi, there was an Old Republic, and a politician named Palpatine manipulated the Senate and created the Empire) but nothing resembling a fleshed out plot.

But then after filming Empire Strikes Back and ROTJ, Lucas was extremely worn out and went through a difficult divorce that rendered him financially incapable of funding more Star Wars movies. Still, in theory, the official plan remained an eventual 9 episode saga some day.

Then a decade later, after CGI technology had matured, Lucas decided to do Episodes 1-3. No earlier scripts existed for these movies, so he wrote each of them one at a time right before filming (in some cases writing them as they were filmed.) At this point, Lucas became very vague about the earlier 9 episode plan, eventually saying outright that the plan was always to have only 6 episodes, because no further story existed beyond that. This is when he started claiming that the entire saga was the story of Anakin Skywalker. He claimed that the “9 episode” plan was simply an invention of the media. (But this was not true; Lucas said many times in the 1980s that there would be 9 episodes.)

Ironically, the 9 episode plan would eventually happen anyway (obviously). Kaminski claims that originally Episodes 7 - 9 were to be about another Jedi (possibly Luke’s sister), probably the same person Yoda referred to when he said “there is another” in Empire Strikes Back. Obviously, after this “other” was turned into Leia, no plans existed for Episode 7 until much later when Lucas decided the Sequels would be about a young woman (some time in the late 2000s/early 2010s, before selling to Disney) who would be mentored by Luke.

Finally, there’s one alternate version of Star Wars history floating around which originated from Gary Kurtz (Lucas’ producer during the Original Trilogy). This version of the story says that there was supposed to be 9 episodes originally, but the story of Luke would encompass Episode 4 through 9 (forming a “hexology”). In this version of Star Wars history, the events in Return of the Jedi were to be stretched out over episodes 6, 7, 8 and 9. Episode 6 would focus on rescuing Han. Episode 7 and 8 are unknown, and Episode 9 would be about Luke finally confronting the Emperor. However, according to Kaminski, this simply isn’t true and Gary Kurtz is misremembering/conflating things.