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Channel72

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20-Jan-2022
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21-Jun-2025
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Post
#1529306
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

fmalover said:

Maybe someone else posted this before.

Din using the heavily modified Naboo N-1 Starfighter as his personal ship doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. If anything it would have worked better as a shuttle attached to his new freighter for reconaissance, as the N1 only has room for himself and a Yoda species at the back. Where would he fit anyone or anything else, be that cargo or a captured person for bounty? I also doubt the crammed cockpit of the N1 would make for a comfortable nap during long flights.

It seems like Din doesn’t really work anymore. Interestingly, there have now been TWO Star Wars live-action shows with a Bounty Hunter main character, yet surprisingly little bounty hunting ever occurs.

Post
#1529240
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

Servii said:
Maybe it’s realistic to real-life politics that the Republic made that mistake, but I’ve never bought the idea that Star Wars was a realistic political allegory. Besides Andor.

Probably not so realistic in most cases. After the USSR collapsed, the US military just continued to expand indefinitely. (Although the number of stockpiled nukes decreased.) I actually don’t know of historical examples of intentional large-scale demilitarization (apart from cases where a country is forced to do so, e.g. Japan after WW2).

Although, real world comparisons perhaps don’t work so well because in Star Wars there’s usually just one single Galactic superpower that controls almost everything (except for some nebulous “unknown regions”), rather than multiple nation states.

Post
#1529128
Topic
I don't think Revenge Of The Sith is as good as everyone says it is.
Time

G&G-Fan said:

The first half should be the beginning of the second movie, the second half should be the last half of the third movie, and there should be a whole movie in-between exploring Anakin’s turn, having him gradually be seduced by the dark side via the usage of Sith holocrons or something. Have him lose himself more and more in the war. Then have him turn.

Yes. Plus you need two full movies to develop a really close bond with Obi Wan, otherwise what’s the point of wading through all that lava in Episode 3. I really wanted ROTS to break my heart. But instead it just sort of made me mildly sad for a few seconds.

Post
#1529126
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

snooker said:

Of course the New Republic is better than the Empire but the upper class in Coruscant and the working class in the Outer Rim haven’t been made to notice. Nothing substantial has changed about their lives. The status quo is too strong. The New Republic hasn’t done enough to rid the galaxy of the Empire. Things aren’t improving enough.

In order to more rapidly rid the Galaxy of Imperial leftovers, it would help if the New Republic didn’t throw away all their military hardware for no reason. At this point in history, I would expect the New Republic to be very fragile, but in the new canon it seems like the Battle of Endor (or maybe the follow-up battle at Rey’s planet) was supposed to be this ultimate overnight decisive victory. (I forgot a lot of these details - but I remember also there was something about Palpatine being insane and having this automatic protocol that purposely sabotages the Empire in the event of his death.)

Post
#1529029
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

They definitely portray the New Republic as somewhat dystopian. I can’t tell if that’s on purpose for thematic reasons, or they’re just trying to copy Andor because that’s what’s hot with the kids these days. But seriously, the New Republic is a giant bureaucracy that allows forced medical procedures, calls ex-Imperials by an ID number, and has these eerie social worker droids that ask if you’re having thoughts of disloyalty towards the government. I mean… at least Tarkin let you know he was just straight up evil and enjoys blowing up planets. These guys pretend to be the good guys while lobotomizing people with “bad thoughts”.

Post
#1529018
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

G&G-Fan said:

Michael Corleone from The Godfather is a better young Darth Vader then the actual young Darth Vader.

The Prequels miss so much of the nuance that made Vader so great in the OT. His sadistic humor, his boldness, his cold, domineering presence, how calculating he was. In the Prequels, he’s a hot-head that flies off the handle. OT Vader got mad, but he wielded it like a blunt weapon. OT Vader is like Michael Corleone, but PT Anakin is like Sonny Corleone (at least in terms of temper; Sonny was never intolerably whiny). And that doesn’t mix. They’re two different characters.

If I wrote the Prequels I would have at least one scene where Anakin says “Impressive” and maybe another scene where he says “All too easy.”

I would have zero scenes where Anakin says “You will not take her from me!!!1!!”

Post
#1528945
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

I’m not sure how to feel about this latest episode. We finally get a good look at the heart of the New Republic, and it seems a bit corny and mundane. My preconceptions are heavily influenced by EU stuff where Chandrila was the New Republic capital, and there were all these politicians trying to make alliances and increase their fleets to fight Imperial remnants. In this version of the New Republic, it seems they’ve decommissioned the Rebel fleet, and are completely against using any Imperial technology. (Which is stupid, because Imperial tech is mostly just next generation Old Republic tech.)

Also parts of Coruscant feel somehow… cheap. The apartment complex looked like a parking garage. And it bothered me that when we see someone flying through the city in a flying car with no roof, there doesn’t seem to be any wind or loud ambient noise. It makes the whole scene feel very fake. At least the Coruscant chase scenes in Attack of the Clones gave off these atmospheric cyberpunk vibes. Here it just feels like a green screen.

Somehow, I feel like the best depiction of Coruscant was in this old test footage from like 2010, made for George Lucas’ planned “Underworld” show that never panned out. It had this really atmospheric, Neo-Noir vibe.

Anyway, this was a strange episode. I liked seeing the New Republic, but really not much happened. They spend all this time on this elaborate chase through a flying subway, and the payoff is simply that Dr. Pershing gets betrayed by his friend for unknown reasons. Apparently the New Republic also has no ethical problems forcing medical procedures on people, but whatever.

I also noticed that the “in Universe” music playing at that outdoor park/festival on Coruscant was the “Resistance Theme” from the Sequel trilogy.

Finally, while it’s generally always the case that the concept art they show in the credits looks better than the actual filmed scenes, the difference usually isn’t that great. This time, the concept art looked orders of magnitude better than the actual filmed scenes. I mean, the concept art for the Imperial lab looked very cool, but in the scene itself the lab just looked like a random room with some tables and bits of equipment strewn about.

Post
#1528906
Topic
Nice moves, old man
Time

I was rewatching A New Hope the other day (whatever version they have on Disney+, probably the 2019 version - which I realize does not help my “cred” around here). In the Cantina, when Ben and Luke first sit down with Han, the first line of dialogue is Han saying “Han Solo. I’m captain of the Millennium Falcon”.

This scene occurs shortly after Ben dismembers the “death sentence in 12 systems” guy (whom the EU decided was some kind of mad plastic surgeon), immediately after a very brief intervening scene showing Threepio outside.

Now, I somehow have this very clear memory of Han saying to Ben something like “Nice moves, old man - pretty impressive”, when Ben and Luke first sit down with Han and Chewie. I can hear Harrison Ford saying these lines in my head. But… Han doesn’t actually say this in the movie. I was wondering if he said it some earlier release. I checked the script, but it’s not in the script either.

On a whim, I decided to check the novelization. In the novelization, Han actually DOES say something like this. Right before saying “I’m Han Solo, Captain of the Millennium Falcon”, Han says “You’re pretty handy with that saber, old man.” That’s not quite what I remember, but it’s close.

So, my working theory right now is I must have read the novelization a long time ago, and formed this false memory in my head of Harrison Ford actually saying these lines. Still, I just thought I’d check with this site to see if there may be some earlier release or perhaps a deleted scene where Harrison Ford says this line or something similar to it, because the memory I have of this seems incredibly real.

Post
#1528804
Topic
How to Watch Star Wars, Part Two: The Special Editions Are the Movies, Get Over It
Time

Rick Worley represents a certain weird faction of Star Wars fandom that promotes the idea that pretty much any criticism of George Lucas’ creative choices is inherently invalid because “it’s Lucas’ vision, not yours.”

Somehow, people like Worley don’t seem to notice that this blanket criticism could be applied to any movie or director, rendering any criticism of any movie invalid. You think Plan 9 From Outerspace is a bad movie? Well just shut up, it’s Ed Wood’s vision, not yours.

It’s this general philosophy that a director’s vision is always sacred. But I suspect people that argue this don’t apply it consistently when it comes to stuff they don’t like. Worley will justify criticism of the Sequel Trilogy because JJ Abrams et al. weren’t the original creators of the IP. But I wonder if we’re allowed to criticize any of Ridley Scott’s crappy choices in films like Prometheus? He’s the original creator of the IP in that case, yet his latter films suck. Whatever, I guess Alien: Covenant is actually amazing because Ridley Scott created the IP and his creative choices are just too mind-blowing for my feeble brain to appreciate.

The other Worley-type argument I often hear is defending some commonly criticized aspect of the Prequels (e.g. cringey acting, bad love dialogue, etc.) by saying “George Lucas did that intentionally, because he’s a genius beyond your comprehension.” So the romance scenes in Attack of the Clones are actually brilliant - because Lucas was going for this 1930s stylized performance. If you find it painful to watch, it just means you’re too stupid to appreciate Lucas’ unfathomable creative genius. (This argument can be paraphrased as: “Lucas made it suck on purpose, therefore it doesn’t suck”.)

As for the Special Editions, honestly, I don’t necessarily care that much about the original theatrical releases. There’s a lot of stuff in the Special Editions that really sucks, but also some good stuff. But I can completely understand the sentiment that the original theatrical releases should be preserved in 4K for posterity, because (A) some fans would appreciate it and (B) it has immense value as historical media. I mean this isn’t that hard to understand.

Post
#1528792
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

StarkillerAG said:

Superweapon VII said:

I began dabbling in AI art this past September. It was a fun toy to play with those first few weeks, but it quickly lost its lustre. From the creative standpoint, I found it an incredibly low-effort, unchallenging, soulless exercise. Since then, I’ve only used AI-generated images as components in digital collages, as “pure” AI art does nothing for me as a creator.

I hope that’s how everyone else will feel, too. AI used to seem like the coolest thing ever to me, but as the luster of “cool new technology” faded away, it was replaced by pure existential dread. Already, the “human element” of art feels like it’s being replaced by soulless robotic perfection. We’re at an inflection point here, and we can either choose to preserve our humanity or sit back as AI lifts the burden of creativity off our shoulders. I sincerely hope we choose the former.

You know we won’t.

Post
#1528467
Topic
Reimagining the OT with more realistic space physics
Time

Superweapon VII said:

But there’s a thread on this site which makes a strong case that SW was never meant to be viewed as sci-fi, but rather Surrealist fantasy.

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-Wars-is-Surrealism-not-Science-Fiction-essay/id/82402

Viewed through that lens, the 2D space travel, human-piloted fighters, giant legged walkers, and other logically implausible elements SW is rife with don’t bother me so bad.

I agree Star Wars was never meant to be anything close to hard science-fiction. I mean, George Lucas basically just wanted to make something like Flash Gordon. But I would argue that Star Wars is, in fact, science fiction - at least partially. I realize the boundary between sci-fi and fantasy is fuzzy and often reduces to semantics depending on how you define “science fiction”. But I would argue that the key aspect that separates science fiction from fantasy is that sci-fi should include a plot or theme that explicitly highlights how some theoretical technology effects the world/characters. Star Wars has this. A major plot point of Episode IV is how the Death Star is a game changing technology that allows for complete authoritarian control. There’s also this underlying theme of man vs. technology, e.g. Vader (part machine himself) downplaying the Death Star, or Luke making the impossible shot without using his targeting computer.

I think Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi definitely have less of a claim to being science fiction, because that aspect of a game changing technology is either not present or not emphasized. Although, ROTJ still has the “man vs. technology” theme with the Ewoks, even though it’s not really presented very well in my opinion.

Post
#1528447
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

NeverarGreat said:

And all this is ignoring the argument for historical preservation and simple decency in preserving the work of those who originally made the films, such as the craftspeople who did the matte paintings and model work that has been simply erased.

Just out of curiosity, do you recall off hand what matte paintings or model work was erased? I thought I was pretty familiar with the Special Edition changes, but I can’t recall off hand any actual models or matte paintings that were erased. I thought the Special Editions mostly just added things, like adding additional frames (e.g. arrival at Mos Eisley) or inserting things into existing frames. I know they removed some frames of Stormtroopers getting shot, which sucks, along with various other tweaks ranging from irrelevant to dramatically harmful, but IIRC most (or all?) of the original matte paintings are still there (like the Death Star hangar bay, Yavin IV temples, etc.)

I agree with your general sentiment though. Perhaps the worst crime is that OG Sy Snootles and platinum disco hit single Lapti Nek are now lost to time… Sadly, Jabba’s palace has never regained that original level of sleaziness.

Post
#1527976
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

Emre1601 said:

Jon Favreau was doing a press tour for season 3 of The Mandalorian, and was asked about the original theatrical version of the Original Trilogy:
 

Moovy TV: “I know this is a bit of a ‘hot potato subject’, but don’t you have enough clout at Lucasfilm now to get the original theatrical editions re-released? I want to see Sebastian Shaw’s ghost in high definition!”

Jon Favreau: “Do you think anybody but us, the people who grew up with it, anybody would care? Because I know to younger people, that’s what I figured out, that the younger people have a whole different perception of what Star Wars is, each generation. For the millennials, it’s the Prequels. Zoomers, sometimes it’s The Clone Wars. I’ve seen people come up to Dave Filoni and that’s their entree into it.”

Favreau then brought the conversation back to The Mandalorian.
 

The video of the conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffbgwHqbdJ0 (1+ minute long)
 

What a disappointing response from him. I also found it a little narrow minded. That people from different generations do not want to watch releases from a different era? To not want to watch what their parents saw. Or to see what the original films were like? The version that won so many awards and changed special effects in films. Film history preserved?

And why shouldn’t older fans wanting to see that original version in HD or 4K be enough of a reason? Why not have the choice for fans to be able to watch all the different versions? Ugh.

Jon Favreau is kind of right though. I mean, I’m an older millennial that grew up with the OT. I saw the Prequels as a teenager and I hated them. They did not fit my perception of what Star Wars should be at all. But nowadays I’ve learned that many younger people see the Prequels as the reference point for what Star Wars is. I never thought that would happen, but here we are.

I do agree it would be nice to have the originals preserved in 4K, mostly for historical interest, to see exactly what 1970s audiences saw. But all of the shots that blew everyone away in 1977 are still there. That’s the irony of the Special Editions. Most of the added stuff ended up making the film look worse, because it looks like 90s CGI and thus aged worse than the original effects from the 70s.

Post
#1527745
Topic
Reimagining the OT with more realistic space physics
Time

Star Wars has been a massive cultural phenomenon for almost 50 years at this point. Regardless of the quality of any recent Disney productions, the Original Trilogy is likely to remain beloved and influential for another 100 years.

But I wonder… as the decades roll by, real world space travel may become more and more familiar to ordinary people. Even if the majority of humans don’t travel into space, general knowledge of space travel will likely become more widespread as corporations and governments send manned or unmanned craft into space for commercial or exploratory ventures. In the same way that early 1990s movies about the Internet or “hacking” now often seem totally ridiculous in light of widespread experience with computers, I wonder if basic knowledge of space travel will eventually have a similar effect on how audiences perceive Star Wars.

Now, I’m NOT talking about realism here. I’m not talking about things like sound in space, Faster-Than-Light travel, energy shields, Death Stars, or the fact that flesh-and-blood humans are involved in space combat in the first place. I think audiences will always be willing to accept the fantastic. But imagine a (non-science fiction) movie, set in the present day, that has a car chase involving normal every-day consumer car models, but all the cars in the film can somehow move sideways. Since the audience is very familiar with cars, everyone would be totally baffled by this unless some explanation was provided by the movie itself. It would be very odd if the movie required audiences to just accept this as part of the experience, because it’s not fantastic or mind-blowing - it’s just contrary to everyone’s day-to-day experience. Unless some explanation is provided, I think it’s easier for audiences to accept Superman and Deathstars than it is to accept a Honda Civic that moves sideways, because the latter falls into this “uncanny valley” of something ordinary operating in a way everyone knows it doesn’t, making the film seem weirdly out of touch. The scene in Empire Strikes Back where Han and Leia walk around inside the giant asteroid worm without wearing protective suits has this effect. It’s easier to accept the freaking GIANT SPACE WORM than it is to accept Han walking around in a vacuum without a space suit! We know the giant worm is a cool fantasy conceit - but Han walking around in a vacuum like that just makes the director seem clueless.

So I wonder how Star Wars will ultimately hold up in centuries to come, when iconic action scenes rely on the audience being totally unfamiliar with ordinary movement in space. Consider the Battle of Yavin - probably the most famous sequence in the whole Star Wars saga, where Luke pulls off an impossible shot at the last second, saving the day. The drama and tension comes from the fact that we all have a visceral understanding of how impossible this shot really is. Apart from the fact that many characters in the movie itself communicate this to us (e.g. Han Solo saying “Great shot kid! That was one in a million!”), we can see how difficult it would be to hit that tiny exhaust port while flying through a trench at insane speeds, while also being shot at by laser turrets and TIE fighters.

But… an audience watching this movie 100 years from now might feel differently. I think there are two main things about ordinary movement in space that go against our normal 21st century intuition: (1) objects in motion never slow down, they keep moving forever unless energy is exerted to decelerate, and (2) an object moving through a vacuum can rotate along its axis three-dimensionally without effecting the object’s forward trajectory or speed.

If this were common knowledge or experience, the Deathstar trench run might be viewed differently. For example, given the threat of enemy TIE fighters, why not have the X-wing pilots fly in pairs: both pilots fly through the trench, but one would face “forwards” and target the exhaust port, while the other would face “backwards” to fend off enemy TIE fighters and protect the first pilot. When Vader is pursuing those X-wings through the trench, any one of those X-wings should be able to rotate 180 degrees and fire back at Vader (while still moving forward through the trench).

Or consider that in the film, they fire proton torpedoes downwards at a 45 degree angle into the exhaust port. But why not do the following instead: When approaching the exhaust port, rotate the X-wing 90 degrees so its nose points downward facing the trench surface, then fire the proton torpedo directly downward in a straight line when passing over the exhaust port. This would require precise timing, but surely a targeting computer could do it. And you could have other X-wing pilots around to fend off TIE fighters when approaching the port.

Or… why even do the trench run at all? Just align an X-wing at a 90 degree angle to the Death Star surface and fly directly towards the exhaust port. Then fire torpedoes in a straight line into the port. Fire multiple proton torpedoes in case some are intercepted by laser turret fire, or first target the laser turrets themselves. You could fire the torpedoes from a great distance away. A computer-guided torpedo could hit the small exhaust port without a human pilot having to fly anywhere near the Death Star. Even in the 21st century, drones are capable of hitting precise targets from a great distance, while also dealing with the added complexity of flying in an atmosphere and gravity well. Targeting something in a vacuum would be much easier. The Battle of Yavin takes place in a vacuum with no significant gravity well (the Death Star is enormous, but still only about 140 kilometers in diameter, thus the effect of its gravity would be negligible).

To me, if experience with space travel became widespread, the Battle of Yavin would fall into that “uncanny valley” where something ordinary is portrayed in a weirdly incorrect way that feels lame or out of touch, like a normal car moving sideways or a computer virus in a 1990s movie. I wonder if the Battle of Yavin could somehow be reimagined to work with an updated understanding of movement in space, while still keeping the general premise of pulling off this “impossible shot” at the last second using the Force.

Post
#1527509
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

From what I understand from the trailers, this Season will somehow segue into a much larger plot arc about some kind of Galactic-level threat from a resurgent Imperial remnant. Obviously, saying anything more specific than that would just be speculation, but my conjecture is this means some kind of proto-First Order (I hope not), or some story leading up to Thrawn. I just learned that those weird space whale/octopus things imply a connection with Thrawn, but I haven’t seen most of the Rebels cartoon so I’m not certain. (The imagery of space whales seems wildly incongruent with the kind of military sci-fi vibes I remember from Zahn’s books). If these conjectures are even partially accurate, it seems this first episode is basically just filler. Also, it would mean the show is definitely moving away from its small-scale, lower key story-telling roots, which is kind of disappointing, and really doesn’t seem appropriate for this type of show. On the positive side, maybe a larger-scale story focus will distract us from the fact that Seasons 1 and 2 are now pretty much dramatically meaningless.

It’s strange - since I grew up with EU stories, I always imagined the larger scale events that shaped the Post-ROTJ era would involve Luke, Han and Leia. But I guess in this latest incarnation of Star Wars it’s going to involve Mando and various Filoni characters.

Post
#1527214
Topic
Has anyone Read the Book The Secret History of Star Wars by Michael Kaminski?
Time

I read it. It’s a great read that lays out Lucas’ evolving ideas about Star Wars and what his plans for the saga were at any given time.

When I was a little kid in the late 80s/early 90s, I recall somehow “knowing” that Star Wars was supposed to be a 12 episode saga (or was it a 9 episode saga?), and that Lucas originally wrote an enormous script, but originally only filmed the middle part of it (episodes 4-6). Kaminski’s book spells out, in painstaking detail, exactly when/where these ideas emerged, how accurate they were, and how, over time, Lucas changed his mind about various things but then basically tried to rewrite history Joseph Stalin-style by pretending that whatever he currently said about Star Wars was “the way it always was”.

Kaminski claims (with copious footnotes to back it up) that no such larger script ever existed. Only Episode 4 (originally just called “Star Wars” Episode 1) existed. However, it is true that after Star Wars was an unprecedented major success in 1977, Lucas announced plans to turn it into a 12 episode saga (meaning 11 additional movies). But the idea was that each movie would mostly be a standalone story, perhaps with a larger plot or theme tying the movies together. Then after Lucas rewrote the original script for Empire Strikes Back, and merged Luke’s father and Darth Vader into a single character, the 12 episode thing disappeared and now the official plans was a 9 episode saga. The 9 episode saga (ironically) was planned to be pretty close (very broadly speaking) to what we actually have today: Episodes 1 to 3 would be about young Kenobi, 4 to 6 about Luke, and 7 to 9 about some other Jedi character that was mentored by Luke (possibly the mystery person spoken of by Yoda in Empire Strikes Back when he said “there is another”, before that turned into Leia.) However, no actual scripts or plot outlines existed for any of these planned sequels. There were some vague notes or ideas for some of them (like Episode 1 to 3 would be about young Kenobi, there was an Old Republic, and a politician named Palpatine manipulated the Senate and created the Empire) but nothing resembling a fleshed out plot.

But then after filming Empire Strikes Back and ROTJ, Lucas was extremely worn out and went through a difficult divorce that rendered him financially incapable of funding more Star Wars movies. Still, in theory, the official plan remained an eventual 9 episode saga some day.

Then a decade later, after CGI technology had matured, Lucas decided to do Episodes 1-3. No earlier scripts existed for these movies, so he wrote each of them one at a time right before filming (in some cases writing them as they were filmed.) At this point, Lucas became very vague about the earlier 9 episode plan, eventually saying outright that the plan was always to have only 6 episodes, because no further story existed beyond that. This is when he started claiming that the entire saga was the story of Anakin Skywalker. He claimed that the “9 episode” plan was simply an invention of the media. (But this was not true; Lucas said many times in the 1980s that there would be 9 episodes.)

Ironically, the 9 episode plan would eventually happen anyway (obviously). Kaminski claims that originally Episodes 7 - 9 were to be about another Jedi (possibly Luke’s sister), probably the same person Yoda referred to when he said “there is another” in Empire Strikes Back. Obviously, after this “other” was turned into Leia, no plans existed for Episode 7 until much later when Lucas decided the Sequels would be about a young woman (some time in the late 2000s/early 2010s, before selling to Disney) who would be mentored by Luke.

Finally, there’s one alternate version of Star Wars history floating around which originated from Gary Kurtz (Lucas’ producer during the Original Trilogy). This version of the story says that there was supposed to be 9 episodes originally, but the story of Luke would encompass Episode 4 through 9 (forming a “hexology”). In this version of Star Wars history, the events in Return of the Jedi were to be stretched out over episodes 6, 7, 8 and 9. Episode 6 would focus on rescuing Han. Episode 7 and 8 are unknown, and Episode 9 would be about Luke finally confronting the Emperor. However, according to Kaminski, this simply isn’t true and Gary Kurtz is misremembering/conflating things.

Post
#1527205
Topic
<strong>The Mandalorian</strong> - a general discussion thread - * <em><strong>SPOILERS</strong></em> *
Time

After watching this latest episode, I had to remind myself what made this show good in the first place.

Season 1 was compelling for many reasons:

  • It was the first live-action Star Wars show
  • It showed us a much smaller-scale, simple story set in the Star Wars galaxy, which felt unique at the time
  • It depicted this gritty, lawless, wild-west/frontier atmosphere that gave off similar vibes to the Original Trilogy
  • The over-arching plot was simple and effective: ruthless bounty-hunter must protect small innocent child

Of course, even Season 1 had a lot of the “video game side-quest” style writing, but at the time I never minded it and the idea of a bounty hunter and a little child going on random unconnected adventures across the Outer Rim of the Star Wars Galaxy seemed charming and fascinating.

The Mandalorian episode that (inexplicably) aired as a Book of Boba Fett episode (I think it was Episode 5) somewhat recaptured a lot of the original charm of this series. Mando was alone, off on a job, looking for his target in some grimy underworld meat locker. There was unexpected extreme violence (Mando slices some criminal in half, then walks around with a bisected corpse in a bag), which recaptured the sense of danger and lawlessness prevalent in the first season. The giant “ring” space station was an incredible new location (despite being a common sci-fi element).

But the ACTUAL Season 3 Premier somehow just seemed incredibly bland, safe and directionless. The fact that Baby Yoda is suddenly back makes the show feel dramatically meaningless to me. Suddenly it’s much harder to care about anything going on. Every shot of Baby Yoda doing something cute comes off now as forced and manipulative. It feels like the “edge” of Season 1 is gone. The Wild West of the Outer Rim feels closer to a Disney theme park now. This might have something to do with Navarro now having developed into a thriving First World city - but the sense of blandness permeates beyond that. There’s a fight with a giant monster, but it comes out of nowhere and feels arbitrary and meaningless, unlike the Krayt Dragon fight in Season 2, which was integrated into the plot. We meet some “Space Pirates”, but they feel like silly cartoons. Pirates/gangsters in Star Wars used to be depicted with a certain level of grotesque darkness, while keeping everything rated PG. Jabba the Hutt may have been a giant slug with a cartoon laugh, but he also executed his dancing slave girl because she refused to “come closer”.

I don’t know. This just feels like a different show than Season 1. It just feels bland and aimless, especially since the heavy emotional payoff from last season was basically rendered completely pointless. I feel like that decision caused incalculable damage to the series as a whole. On top of that, there’s no real “hook” or open plot thread that seems particularly engaging. There’s this potentially exciting idea of “retaking Mandalore” floating around, but what does that even mean? Retake it from what? I thought it was almost entirely irradiated and uninhabitable. In fact, I’m not sure what Bo Katan expected to do even if she had the Dark Saber.

Anyway, it isn’t looking good at this point, but hopefully I’m wrong and the rest of the Season turns out to be amazing.

Post
#1524080
Topic
PT vs OT Scientific Study
Time

So this ancient thread was apparently resurrected by some AI or whatever. (Crap, too many sci-fi elements are creeping into reality.)

But anyway, it’s interesting, from an historical perspective, to read the OP of this thread, as an example of common Internet sentiment about the Prequels all the way back in 2011. Basically, the OP argues that (based on an admittedly small and non-representative sample size), very few people care about or even recognize Prequel characters. The conclusion is that the OT will be timeless, but the Prequels will fade into oblivion. (Based on a comparison of General Grievous vs. Darth Vader, but extrapolated to the Prequels at a whole).

Yeah… I mean, that was my assumption back in the day as well.

But it’s ironic to read this now. Little did the OP know, back in 2011, that as he confidently mocked the Prequels, an entire generation of 5 to 10 year olds was slowly incubating, absorbing George Lucas’ campy schlock with their developing minds, such that in only a few years time, they would be unleashed upon the Internet, declaring that Revenge of the Sith is an absolute masterpiece that rivals The Empire Strikes Back. And General Grievous and his twirling multi-colored lightsabers (plus zero character-development) is an incredibly memorable, kick-ass villain.

George Lucas apparently knew what he was doing when he aimed these movies at a much younger audience.

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#1522000
Topic
I wish Darth maul was the main villain for the Prequels.
Time

The Prequels needed some consistent villain (apart from Palpatine) that was present throughout (or at least in the first 2 movies), and played an active role in driving the plot.

I don’t think Maul really worked. He’s basically just like a “Generic Sith starter kit”. Yeah I know later cartoons gave him more depth, but he’s not ideal.

The Prequels needed a villain that fit thematically with the larger events/themes. Count Dooku is closer thematically to what I want, but he also sucks and is written incoherently. I like the idea that initially he seems to be taking a principled stance against a corrupt Republic, and he even outright tells Kenobi: “Look, there’s a secret Sith controlling everything, please help.” But then it turns out he’s actually just a Sith himself, so whatever.

After mulling it over in my head over the years, I’ve come to the conclusion that a character similar to something like Darth Revan would have worked best as a primary Prequel villain. The idea is that there was a formerly well-respected Jedi Master (like Dooku and/or Revan - I’ll refer to him as “Jedi X”) who was ex-communicated from the Jedi order due to a controversial but principled stance he took during a former war (e.g. how Revan went to fight the Mandalorians against the will of the Jedi.) The disgraced Jedi X goes into exile, where he by chance discovers that a powerful Sith Lord (Palpatine) is manipulating the Republic at the highest levels of government. Jedi X attempts to confront this Sith Lord and fails, and realizes the Jedi have no chance against this guy because they have no understanding of the Dark Side and nobody has even seen a Sith for thousands of years. So, with good intentions, Jedi X decides he has no choice but to become the Sith Lord’s apprentice, so that he can learn the Dark Side and eventually use it to kill his own master and save the Republic. (All this can just be backstory, it doesn’t need to be actually depicted in any hypothetical Prequel rewrite.)

But of course, the cost of becoming a Dark Side expert is that you actually become pretty evil. So Jedi X becomes a true villain, and his original intention of killing his master in order to save the Republic slowly morphs into killing his master simply to gain power for himself. But Palpatine is pretty powerful, and Jedi X (now officially a Sith) eventually concludes he can’t kill his master without help. So he starts looking for an apprentice of his own to help him take down Palpatine. During the course of the events of the Prequels, he meets Obi-Wan and Anakin. Jedi X opens up to Obi-Wan (in the same way Dooku does), essentially spilling the entire plot: “Look, there’s an evil Sith Lord secretly manipulating the Government. He’s way ahead of you and way more powerful, but I know how to take him out. Join me, etc.” Of course, since Jedi X himself has already done some pretty evil stuff, Kenobi doesn’t believe him.

Some time later, Jedi X makes the same pitch to Anakin. Anakin also doesn’t buy it. But Jedi X is able to manipulate Anakin enough, significantly pissing him off, so that Anakin eventually flips out and starts giving into his anger. Jedi X is hoping he can turn Anakin to the Dark Side by forcing him to act out of anger (in the same way that Palpatine tried to goad Luke into killing Vader.)

But… (plot twist), the plan backfires. Jedi X successfully goads Anakin into embracing anger and using the Dark Side, except Anakin is just slightly too powerful/unpredictable for Jedi X to fully control. Anakin gives into anger and murders Jedi X in a moment of rage. When Palpatine finds out, Palpatine realizes Anakin would make an even better apprentice than Jedi X. So Palpatine takes over where Jedi X left off in the effort to fully convert Anakin to a Sith.

Then, at the end of Episode 3, after everything goes to hell, Kenobi realizes Jedi X was right all along. Kenobi has a sort of “Statue of Liberty in Planet of the Apes” moment where he breaks down, realizing what idiots the Jedi (including himself) had been. He sees now that Jedi X tried to warn them, but they were too judgmental to listen, and now it’s too late because the President of the Galaxy is an evil sorcerer and Anakin turned into a fascist cyborg.

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#1521681
Topic
A New Hope as a Stand-alone Movie
Time

NeverarGreat said:

I agree that this keeps the film from being a perfect stand-alone, but there is a mitigating factor in that we do see a lightsaber fight so the lightsaber as an object is paid-off. The fact that it belongs to Obi-wan isn’t to troubling to me. Star Wars is a universe of unbounded promise, so giving Luke a weapon that he doesn’t use in a fight only fires the mind to imagine him using it in a future battle against Vader.

I would argue that the setup for Kenobi’s lightsaber happens in the Mos Eisley cantina, when Kenobi slices off that guy’s arm. This sets up that Kenobi is some kind of skilled warrior with an exotic weapon from a romantic age in the past. The payoff happens when Kenobi takes out his lightsaber again to fight Vader.

But Luke’s lightsaber is setup separately, and the setup connects the lightsaber to the idea that Luke’s father was a Jedi Knight who specifically wanted Luke to inherit it. (Thus, the lightsaber serves as a physical manifestation of the “hero’s call” - calling Luke away from his mundane life to adventure.) But there’s never any pay off for this setup in A New Hope. It’s kind of like setting up Excalibur in the King Arthur legends, but then just forgetting about it.

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#1521675
Topic
Some Contradictions of the OT with the Prequels
Time

In the Prequels, we learn that Darth Vader created C3PO.

This doesn’t contradict anything.

It is NOT a continuity error at all.

Nothing in the OT is contradicted by this.

But…

But…

But…

But… like, we learn that Darth Vader created C3PO!!

Surely that disqualifies the Prequels from counting as actual movies, right?

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#1521672
Topic
Why ROTJ Feels Rushed
Time

I think what happened is that originally, Luke wasn’t going to face the Emperor until Episode 9. Or at least, that format was floated around as a possibility in the very-early 1980s during the very-early stages of conceptualizing Episode 6. Apparently, at a very early stage, the idea was to make Episode 6 an entire movie about the rescue of Han Solo, with Boba Fett as an antagonist. With this format, Episodes 7, 8 and 9 probably never materialized into anything resembling a concrete plot, except that in Episode 9 Luke would finally confront the Emperor at the Imperial Capital. Obviously, none of this happened, and the rescue of Han plus Luke vs. the Emperor were compressed into a single climactic movie, and (later in the production) the Imperial Capital was changed to Death Star 2.

However, I never really thought that ROTJ was too rushed, because I took it for granted that there would have to be many additional battles after Episode 6, before the Empire was completely defeated. The death of the Emperor brought an end to Luke’s arc and Vader’s arc, but the Empire itself would certainly continue to exist in some form for quite some time.

In retrospect, the biggest issue with ROTJ is that the first part of the movie is entirely disconnected from the rest of the movie, and the premise for the latter is mostly disconnected from all events that happened earlier. Nothing that happens in Jabba’s palace has any kind of causal relationship with the events after Han’s rescue. And the entire setup for infiltrating Endor (stealing shuttle Tyderium and all that) is just arbitrarily presented as a given that happened off-screen, with no connection to anything that happened earlier. Consider how in Episode 4, the assault on the Death Star 1 happens as a direct result of the actions of the main characters, whereas in Episode 6, the assault on Death Star 2 is simply presented arbitrarily as a starting premise, not as a logical consequence of prior events.

On the other hand, it’s nice that our 3 main characters aren’t responsible for literally every important thing the Rebel Alliance does. It’s a big galaxy, and there are other heroes going on other off-screen adventures, like those Bothan spies. But from a narrative/writing perspective, the circumstances enabling the assault on Death Star 2 are totally arbitrary. There’s also no well-defined ticking clock. Why should the assault take place now? (Well because it happens that now we have access to a stolen shuttle that was stolen off-screen, and an off-screen spy network that you never heard about before discovered that the Emperor is personally overseeing the Death Star’s construction. That’s why this is happening now, conveniently right after we wrapped up that side quest to save Han.) It comes off as arbitrary, because the premise doesn’t follow causally from anything that happened in the first half of the movie, nor anything that happened in the previous movie.

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#1520855
Topic
A New Hope as a Stand-alone Movie
Time

It’s often said that A New Hope (originally just “Star Wars”) was written as a stand-alone movie, because the good guys win at the end and the main conflict is resolved. George Lucas didn’t really know at the time if he’d ever get to make any sequels, so he wrote A New Hope to stand on its own, with all plot threads resolved by the end. The earliest known drafts of Star Wars, which are significantly different from the 1977 film, still follow the same basic story structure and end with all major plot threads resolved.

Of course, the fact that Lucas commissioned Splinter of the Mind’s Eye as a template for a low-budget sequel, just in case the 1977 Star Wars film failed, indicates he was at least thinking about a sequel even before 1977. Regardless, it’s pretty obvious that A New Hope is structured as a stand-alone film. The film’s major conflict is overcome by the protagonists (the Death Star plans are secured and used to destroy the Death Star), and the protagonist learns to use the Force (a metaphor for believing in yourself) and saves the day with help from his friend.

Of course, there’s a brief shot at the end that shows us that Vader survives. But this just comes off like Lucas hedging his bets about the possibility of a sequel. It doesn’t detract from the film’s ability to stand on its own.

However, it always struck me that if A New Hope actually WAS a stand-alone film (i.e. if no other Star Wars movies existed), there would be at least one issue that would stand out as a significant writing flaw:

The issue is that Luke’s lightsaber would become a major violation of the “Chekhov’s gun” principle. Luke is given this incredible weapon: his father’s lightsaber. Ben Kenobi even explains the significance of the lightsaber, what it meant in past times, and how Luke’s father wanted Luke to have it one day. Luke is mesmerized by it (who wouldn’t be?) Later on, Ben trains Luke a bit on how to use it. But after that… Luke never uses it again. Throughout the entire film, he never once uses it to overcome any obstacles. Sure, we see Ben Kenobi use a different lightsaber to fight Vader. But Luke’s lightsaber is setup as this really important thing - and then pretty much completely forgotten about. Luke never uses it even once to advance the plot in any way. As a standalone movie, it would seem like a good idea to simply delete all references to Luke’s lightsaber, because there is never any pay-off.

Now obviously, the pay-off eventually came around in The Empire Strikes Back. But that sort of just proves the point that A New Hope doesn’t quite work 100% as a stand-alone movie. Even if Lucas had no concrete plans for any sequels, he seemed to at least have some notion that there was more to this story.

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#1520355
Topic
George Lucas should get more credit for &quot;saving Anakin Skywalker&quot; in Star Wars: The Clone Wars.
Time

for the story they have to tell, the Prequels are intrinsically not good for a movie format, because there are a lot of things to explore, and there’s not enough screan-time to do it. So, it would have been better if they had been part of the EU. However, even with their limited amount of screan-time, I’m still capable of getting everything necessary to appreciate them.

I look at it this way: if it’s 1993 or whatever and you’re trying to write the Prequels from scratch, what would you focus on? Suppose your goal is to generate the maximum amount of drama and audience emotional investment possible. What is the most effective way to achieve that? The obvious answer is to focus on the tragic friendship of Anakin and Obi-Wan, from the beginning to the heart-wrenching betrayal. The limited backstory we get in the OT practically screams that this should be the focus. Sure, there are other details… clones, a Republic becoming an Empire, etc., but those things really are just window dressing.

I mean how many times does Vader bring up Obi-Wan in the OT? He brings him up to Luke all the time. It’s clear their relationship was incredibly significant for both of them, for better or worse.

Yet the Prequels don’t really make this the main focus until Episode 3, at which point it’s way too late to generate any serious emotional impact. Even worse, Anakin spends most of Episode 2 complaining that Obi-Wan sucks. To this day I’m surprised Lucas just didn’t seem that interested in their friendship, opting instead to tell a more cluttered story, with Palpatine’s antics really being the main through line, and only 2 out of 3 films actually featuring Anakin.