CapableMetal

Ok, here are the 'standardised' reel change numbers from the previous posts

ANH (originally posted by Darth Mallwalker):

0 = first frame

711 = STAR WARS title card appear

28343 = reel 2

59025 = reel 3

90295 = reel 4

117270 = reel 5

147672 = reel 6

ESB (originally posted by msycamore):

0 = first frame

711 = STAR WARS title card appear

30988 = reel 2

59815 = reel 3

91134 = reel 4

122461 = reel 5

151133 = reel 6

ROTJ (originally posted by msycamore):

0 = first frame

712 = STAR WARS title card appear

25055 = reel 2

54317 = reel 3

84511 = reel 4

112587 = reel 5

142918 = reel 6

172032 = reel 7

Also, I haven't checked the TB of ROTJ yet, but msycamore has previously reported "11 frames around the reel breaks and a few more at various points" missing.

Buster D said:

Jetrell Fo said:

This is probably why 24fps works best...

    Film uses 24fps, and more recently, 48fps and even higher. Timecode in theatrical films is different and very simple — it counts every frame from number 1 to the total number of frames in the movie.

While this is true for editing, an actual 24fps signal (as opposed to a 23.976fps one) isn't always fully compatible with modern displays.  For example, the Total Recall "Mind-Bending Edition" Blu-ray is one of the few discs encoded at 1080p24, and a few people had problems where frames are skipped/dropped: http://www.avsforum.com/search.php?containingthread[]=1406134&output=posts&action=disp&search=24&resultSortingPreference=recency

 

If possible, I think the final release should be at 23.976p.

Very possible and very easy, I assume that's what You_Too and DJ are going to do. For sync the DTS audio needs to be matched at 24fps (because it fits perfectly) but converting it to 23.976 should just be a matter of putting it through eac3to to a lossless format then encoding to DTS.

I don't believe that most modern displays/players would have this problem, the standard has been set and most currently available and future hardware should support 24fps without dropouts.

That said, your point is well taken and you are right. The conversion from 24 to 23.976 is so easy to do and is more compatible for those with older hardware/video processor setups that it would be crazy to leave the final product at 24fps, I guess.

You_Too said:

Thank you so much for that info.

Should the Star Wars title appear at 711 in all three films?

And doesn't ROTJ miss any frames? Other than the reel changes.

I haven't checked ROTJ yet, I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

I think msycamore's figures were 711 for ANH and ESB and 712 for ROTJ, but I've been working with all 3 starting at 711 for uniformity. I guess its preference, but so far the numbers posted up here have worked out nicely; the first DTS synch for ANH that I uploaded a while back was synch'ed perfectly to msycamore's .m2v, which I didn't even have at the time.

Incidentally, the SE frame count for ANH is identical to the '04 DVD. Even with the additional changes each shot is the same length.

You're most likely right about Canal+, just trying to figure out why those frames were missing, but I guess it could be due to any number of reasons. I wonder if the laserdiscs have the same frames missing.

djchaseb said:

Also that shot was always very grainy.  Last thing I would want is noise reduction.  I love film grain.

Agreed. Grain adds a character that you just don't get with modern digital cameras, and it also looks nice when projected. Noise reduction would scrub away yet more detail along with the grain; the latest Predator Blu-Ray is a good example of this as all fine detail is gone!

Ok, the TB broadcast of ANH is in better shape than TESB, missing only 6 frames (assuming "Star Wars" title card at frame 711):

50193 - close-up on Luke listening after Ben says "...it binds the galaxy together." May not be exactly this frame as its difficult to tell but certainly a frame is missing from this shot. Middle of reel 2.

85223-85225 - last 2 frames of Alderaan exploding, plus first frame of Luke training with his lightsaber on the Falcon. Towards the end of reel 3 (reel 4 begins at 90295).

147671+147672 - last frame of the astromech being lowered into the X-Wing with the mechanic waving his arms, first frame of next shot looking down on an X-Wing. Reel change.

Thats it. I'm surprised there weren't more frames missing around the reel changes, and am even more surprised there were so many missing mid-reel. I wonder if there were ad-breaks in the original broadcast that could be responsible for some of these? I know that the Reivax broadcast is missing 15 sequential frames during the Ben/Vader duel alone!

I hope this is useful. I've been keeping an eye on your release thread at the work you're doing, and downloaded DJ's samples and both are looking exceptional considering your sources! I'm looking forward to checking them out once they're done!

You_Too said:

Actually DJ is the one who is synching them, but we don't even know where all those frame drops are? Obviously some are at the reel changes and since your audio is divided into reels it should be easy to synch them reel by reel, but I didn't know they were missing frames in the middle of reels. It would be very nice if you'd point out where.

I don't know about ANH (yet) but TESB is missing the following, assuming 'Star Wars' appears at frame 711. This is where the frames should be, so the numbers may be off by up to 15 frames by the end:

32645 - General Rieekan "prepare for ground assault" (actually around this point, I have been unable to pinpoint the exact frame as there is very little movement where the frame is missing; somewhere just before the officer he is talking to nods, I duplicated this frame in my synch source).

75305 - last frame of the asteroid hitting Star Destroyer bridge, missing from all SE laserdiscs, and broadcasts, but we have previously discussed in this thread and we believe it should be there, but isn't likely due to them all coming from the same master. Half way through reel 3.

75306 - immediately after the last one, officers conference call with Vader, first frame missing. Half way through reel 3.

93230-93241 - The cave, when Luke chops Vader's head off. Video errors, looks like the DVB signal broke up at this point, or some sort of encoding error. Another source will be needed for this shot. About 2000 frames into reel 4.

151133 - Reel change: Luke entering the tunnel after kicking Vader off the platform, first frame missing.

Reel changes should occur at 30988, 59815, 91134, 122461, and 151133, the reel changes for ANH and ROTJ have been posted earlier in this thread (look at page 3, you'll find them), for your reference. I'll take a look at ANH now and see how many are missing.

You_Too said:

I saw Jetrell Fo posted about film being 24fps, though I still wanted to post this.

Me and DJ are going to use this audio in our 97 SE project, and DJ had already synched the first reel of ANH but told me it was very hard. Then I got that idea that it might need a conversion from 24 to 23,976 fps, and I tried it myself and it was an almost perfect match with the digital broadcast version we're working with. (TB version, converted from 25 to 23,976 fps)

Though the software I used to convert the audio from 24 to 23,976 (BeSweet) is old and felt very outdated, since it forced every mono file to be converted to stereo during the conversion.

I also wonder what would be the easiest way to convert this from 44100hz to 48000hz? Or does a blu-ray accept audio being 44100 if we'd make a DTS track from this?

EDIT: Found out that eac3to could do this conversion properly. It was hard to find out how to make a script that would convert all audio files at once though.

eac3to is an excellent tool ;)

I've done near-perfect synchs of all three films to 24fps. It was the easiest way, as they do match the film frame rate. I've also managed to synch them by adjusting the playback sample rate to match (roughly, but perfectly adequately) to 23.976 in my first attempts.

Blu-Ray format accepts nothing less than 48KHz, but interestingly enough does support a true 24fps format in 720p and 1080p, in addition to the usual 23.976fps.

Have you reinserted the missing frames into the TB broadcast you're working on?

Synch should be very easy if you have, I managed to synch all three films in less than 6 hours to a frame-accurate video at its native 24fps frame rate, then just ran a sample rate conversion to 48KHz when they were all done. If you haven't then you may have to adjust/mix the DTS tracks in places to match it; I know that in the TB broadcast of Empire most of the missing frames are in the middle of reels, something like 12 frames out of the 15 or so that are missing. The rest of the time they are missing frames around reel changes, which should be much easier for you to work around should you choose that path.

Are there any accurate sources for colour for the SE's? I know that the colours were tweaked for the 2004 masters (including the ridiculous level adjustments that washed out the saber cores/laser blasts/random shots), and shots given colour tints.

The way I understand it (and vaguely remember it in the cinema) is that the SE's have a colour-timing closer to the THX OT. I've been colour correcting TESB from the Blu-Ray and I've come up with some pretty good results so far, but with only analogue and broadcast versions to go by, which need colour corrections themselves, its been difficult to discern what is accurate and what isn't from memory.

I've also identified shots where white levels have been dialed down and was shocked to see how awful it is in places. The final shot of ANH is clearly a victim of this, along with the lightsaber cores/laser blasts/explosions/various random shots in every film.

Is there anything that can be used a reference?

Jetrell Fo said:

^^^^

That's gonna take me some time.  My capture skills are probably pretty basic and my knowledge and usage of AVIsynth is far less basic...LOL

Hehe, I'll point you in the right direction and explain the script side of it then:

ClipA=AVISource("c:\PathTo\ClipA.avi").Crop(0,0,-360,0).Trim(245,65654)

ClipB=AVISource("c:\PathTo\ClipB.avi").Crop(360,0,0,0).Trim(327,65736)

StackHorizontal(ClipA,ClipB)

"ClipA="/"ClipB=" is defining what Clip A/Clip B is, just be sure to add any extra filtering you're doing to that clip on the same line (separated with . ), so it you wanted to separate the fields, for example, you just add '.SeparateFields() to the end of the line. In this case it simply loads the AVI file (assuming that's the format you've captured in) and crops one clip by 360 pixels right and the other 360 pixels left (just take the horizontal resolution of your captures and divide by 2, should work fine provided the heights are the same). The clips are Trimmed to start and end at the same frames as picked out in VirtualDub using your eyes ;)

StackHorizontal does just that, and because both clips are cropped 50% each way they should make a full image. Now just check it through in virtualdub and it should match perfectly, if it doesn't then you're missing frames.

Note: this is the most basic script I can think of, you'll likely end up running some more filters. SeparateFields() is an essential one to remember (as is Weave() to put them back together again!), especially when creating a manual IVTC script of all those NTSC laserdiscs ;)

If you have any trouble just PM me your scripts and I'll check them for you.

Jetrell Fo said:

How can I tell if my LD captures are frame accurate?  I've got my Japan LD captures of the S.E..  

It could give us another source to work with.

Any ideas? 

The way I've been doing it with my captures is to capture more than once, which was for averaging out noise. Normally dropped frames are reported by VirtualVCR, but there always seems to be one frame the slips under the net. Your capture card may well be capturing perfectly, of course!

The way I did it was to write down a frame number for a scene change every 5000 frames or so, and made sure each capture started from the same point by selecting a unique frame (like a frame on a THX logo with a unique piece of white dust) and setting a trim point in AviSynth. Do this for a point at the start and end and check each capture length in frames, and give a quick check for the scene change points, starting from the end. If you have 2 captures with an unreported dropped frame each, then at some point your numbers won't match in VirtualDub. Its then a case of finding the frame(s) that have gone and recapture that part of the film and splice it in with a simple AviSynth script and you should have a full capture ;)

EDIT: Just thought, you could trim from the same frames at the start and end of each capture, crop each one half way across the frame and stack them horizontally to check the scene transitions line up properly. Thats probably a faster method of doing it rather than checking each one individually.

It's difficult to suggest a definitive, specific tool to suggest how to combine the files, other than you need a sound or video editing program to match up the files with a video source. The source needs to be frame accurate for the DTS files to match up perfectly, which I know the broadcast versions aren't. For example, the TB releases are missing between 10-15 frames each which will mean these frames either need to be reinserted from other sources or the sound chopped (11 missing frames in TESB TB release are about 3 minutes into a reel!).

The best reference for accurate video sources are the numbers posted in the standards thread by Darth Mallwalker and msycamore. The reel changes are in the correct place for the start point ('Star Wars' appearing on frame 711, all numbers can be offset for different start-frame numbers). Having just finished my own synch of ROTJ, there is a few seconds of overlap at the start and end of each reel, and with some reels the waveforms for identical overlaps appearing different, with matching sample peaks and troughs appearing unrelated; as such, the reels don't match 100% sample for sample, end to end, but are close enough to be unnoticeable.

My method you know already and have published in the other threads, and I'm not sure there is an easier way. It's certainly not a case of "crop x amount from the beginning and end of each reel" as you would using an AviSynth script with video.

If you were to mux them to a DTS file, you would have to get your hands on the official DTS encoder. I don't think there is another application that can do it, and there certainly aren't any free ones due to licensing. With both the DTS and Dolby encoders you need the 6 mono wavs for each channel and assign them accordingly in the encoder. Then its often just a case of clicking 'start', unless you start messing with 2.0 down-mix matrices and such. The only free program I know of that works similar to the pro encoders is EncWAVtoAC3, which doesn't encode to DTS but is a user-friendly way of creating 5.1 AC3s.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

I thought to pass the audio from the VCR to my Sony MiniDisc recorder (because it has a really good A/D converter - 20 bit delta-sigma ADC - that I think is really superior to the simple 16 bit audio card of my PC) then feed its digital out to my PC. Is there something like AviSynth median I could use for audio?

I'm happy I decided to drop DScaler and instead use VDub to capture some laserdiscs - at the end, I captured 1 hour with NO frames dropped - just disable the preview... my video experience is slowly growing!

I haven't used my old MiniDisc recorder in many years, can you record to uncompressed PCM or does it compress to ATRAC? If it compresses it you should be better off using the capture card, as you will lose frequencies from your lower fidelity source. Averaging for sound surely does exist but I don't know how you would go about doing it as I've never done it! You would have to line up each recording sample for sample (or as close as you possibly can) for it to work properly, just as you do with multiple video captures, except there are far more samples/second in audio than frames/second in video. Random noise can change the shape of a waveform, making this potentially very difficult from a noisy source, but certainly possible in theory. It would just be easier to run a subtle NR pass with a negligible difference in perceived quality. Perhaps Audacity will do the job in this respect. I'd recommend having a bit of a play with different methods and see what works best, but I'd recommend getting some high quality shielded cables, if you haven't got some already, to reduce line noise from source to capture devices.

Incidentally my capture card keeps reporting no dropped frames in VirtualVCR, but still keeps missing 1 frame on all captures, which means I have to compare, then recapture and splice for that section. I'm a relative newbie to video work too, so its been a good way of learning, although frustrating at times because it means getting a frame-accurate capture takes a lot longer. I did manage to get a nice capture of the PAL laserdisc for ANH after getting a median of 5 captures. I'll give VDub a try and see if it gives better results!

Jetrell Fo said:

This is probably why 24fps works best...

    Film uses 24fps, and more recently, 48fps and even higher. Timecode in theatrical films is different and very simple — it counts every frame from number 1 to the total number of frames in the movie.

That's exactly the logic I've been using since discovering that Blu-Ray supports 24fps. I've been piecing together a basic colour adjusted 720p24 version of ESB to try adding the DTS mix to. I'm going to try to place it without mixing adjoining tracks together, a straight cut from reel to reel if possible, it may take some extreme close-up editing to match it sample to sample to get it completely accurate!

I'm still here, but working on a decent and colour-accurate video source. I managed to get a reasonable frame-accurate capture of the PAL laserdisc of ANH and averaged 5 captures to make it look a bit nicer, but its a laserdisc so there's only so much that can be done! All the broadcast versions, whilst mostly having superior picture, albeit with a more visible smear in parts, are missing frames, although I'm also looking into picking the best parts to make a better source. Please note that these are personal projects, so I won't be treading on any toes of other projects that may be happening!

I'm not sure there is any specific technical way to line the DTS up perfectly with any video source as we don't have a negative with the timecode markers on, or any technical means to perform a 'true' sync with the discs. The lead in/out on each reel doesn't give a specific reference point either. It seems to be a case of lining them up manually, and putting a slight overlap mix to make sure its seamless. Perhaps not perfect, but if each reel is lined up as correctly as possible with the video source then it should be unnoticeable. I used the '04 mix as a loose reference (and by loose, I mean just that, as dialogue and sound effects don't always match up due to it being an entirely different mix). I synchronised both ANH and ESB this way and it seemed to work effectively. I'm currently trialing a 24fps source instead of the usual 23.976fps; from the brief test I've run so far, no sample rate change or time manipulation is needed for the DTS audio to match up.

Jetrell Fo said:

With my internet connection being limited I had hoped that by providing at least the audio, it would help people get started. none and I are working on straight ISO's of the discs themselves for the source information they can provide. I have been and still am willing to provide what assistance I can with what I have at my disposal. I ask for nothing in return because I don't expect anything in return. Having every resource available to help projects be fully realized and shared with everyone. THAT is the reward. It is my hope that ALL our members here feel the same. Cheers!!!!

Well said! I'd just like to acknowledge and state my appreciation for all of the effort that has been made in getting these discs shared for everyone. I understand how difficult it has been for you with your internet connection and getting these discs out there for everyone. Its exciting to think what may lay ahead by having the access to these discs!

Jetrell Fo said:

rnranimal said:

Jetrell Fo said:

GOOD NEWS!!!!

TESB DTS ISO's are now uploaded.  They'll be making their way to the newsgroups soon.  I've sent out links to some of you who I know have been waiting for them....check your pm box.

:)

 

Thanks for the patience.

 

there's one showing up on usenet that says "movie-only". is this not the ISO like SW?

btw, extraction with winamp 2.92 under wine in Snow Leopard is working

That may be msycamore's reference video you're seeing...anything audio only should say just that....

I think that it is the DTS CD-ROMs (its only 800ish MB). I downloaded the disc images this morning (400MB each) from a link Jetrell Fo sent me, I think the discs may have been re-authored for size as they are missing the audio for the pre-movie trailers which are on the other discs for the other films. I think thats what it means by 'movie-only'.

msycamore said:

My suggestion is that you should ignore the missing frame and go with complete audio. People who would like to take advantage of your fine work in the future would just need to restore that frame from another source if it's needed.

I think you're right, and would be a very simple task to perform. I'll keep to that then as a complete reference. Only ROTJ to figure out now...

msycamore said:

That's great. So if I should make a similar upload for ESB should I insert a empty frame at that point where both G'Kar and TB is missing one frame (asteroid hitting Stardestroyer) or keep it one frame short. It's most likely a IP-reel splice point, it's gone on the US LD as well. My guess is that you all want the audio complete for future SE projects, if so I'll insert a black frame there so my video will sync with your audio for those who would like to combine our files to enjoy your work. I never did get the broadcasts of ROTJ, maybe I should.

That frame isn't present on the PAL LD either. That particular frame happens almost exactly half way through the audio track for Reel 3 on the DTS disc so I'm unsure what to do about it. Would it be wise to follow the 97 trend and ignore that extra frame, or add it in because we know it exists in the 04 releases? I know it wouldn't make a lot of difference (I haven't finished synching the audio just yet) but it would be nice to set a standard on this and get it right first time :)

Jetrell Fo said:

budwhite said:

What versions are these synced with?

They aren't synched with anything yet....it is just the audio.....

 

I think Empire will be done in a few hours. Looks like I've got a frame accurate video sync source now.

I'm considering adjusting the levels on my mixes to be more DVD-friendly. After checking out ROTJ yesterday, its very loud and is clipping a fair bit, and have seen a couple of comments about it.

Once they're synched I'll make them available for the few who don't want to mess with these discs themselves. At the very least they can provide a reference for your own mixes ;)

I'm hoping to put the unaltered WAV's with an LFE track for each reel into a torrent for those who cannot get the audio from the discs. It seems unfair that some are missing out due to software/hardware issues with the plugin, hopefully this will rectify that problem.

msycamore said:

Let's say we continued on the same path for ESB.

0 = first frame
711 = STAR WARS title card appear

and the following reel change
30988 = r2
59815 = r3
91134 = r4
122461 = r5
151133 = r6

^ that's my numbers when I've inserted a empty frame where I know one frame is missing (last frame in the shot of the asteroid hitting the Stardestroyer).

Provided the reel changes were not changed for the SE and that no additional frames are gone from TB and G'Kar.

I've compared a few sources on this, all missing an occasional frame in different places, but time-lined them so that missing frames are taken into account.

I got exactly the same reel change numbers before comparing to the 2004 DVD with the revised Emperor communication scene removed (it fits perfectly).

So it looks like we're onto a winner with this one. Do you have the reel change numbers for ROTJ?

russs15 said:

Does this mean that we now have the standard for the ANH 97SE????

I think so, yes. It should be noted I didn't use msycamore's m2v to edit to, nor have I even seen it yet, but the info posted on here showed it perfectly matched the synch-source I pieced together from hours of studying several 97SE releases.

It sounds like that m2v is completely accurate.

Molly said:

CapableMetal's encode synchs exactly (as far as my eyes and ears can tell me) to msycamore's m2v.  I made an AC3 in Aften because Mainconcept choked on the FLAC, but it seems to have come out a bit loud relative to a "proper" 5.1 AC3.

That's likely due to the source. The audio on the discs is louder than a commercial DVD and I deliberately left the volume levels as they were on the discs so people could hear the mix complete for themselves with minimal processing. Perhaps a cut of a few dB might be better these DTS tracks to bring it to a more 'standard' overall level.

A few people seem to be struggling with the FLAC, which has surprised me because I've never had any trouble with it. I'd have uploaded it as mono WAV's if I'd realised it was going to cause such problems, I was just trying to keep the seeding time down because my upload speed isn't great ;)

Nice to hear it synchs up with msycamore's m2v file, I made my synch source to match up with the reel change frame numbers, sounds like it worked a treat!

Jetrell Fo said:

I'm still hoping you'll take a crack at all the ones we have that can be accessed this way....only one odd is ROTS.  ;)

I'm still going to do them, I was just thinking about keeping them for my own use. Its nice to see everyone is having a go at this, it means that we should soon have some nice mixes to work with.

I've been taking a look at ROTJ but until I've downloaded a few broadcast versions of the Special Edition for frame-accuracy comparisons its going to be hard.

The only change I can think they made, apart from shoving Hayden in, is the addition of Naboo to the victory celebration. Luckily its the last reel, but until we have a frame-accurate source then accurate sync may be difficult.

Any word on the availability of the ATOC and TESB discs yet?

rnranimal said:

thanks for the info. at the moment i only have wine installed on my Mac, so i'll start with that.

actually i do have a 5 year old Dell laptop in my closet. it no longer connects to the internet, so hasn't had updates in a few years. but i'll download the software to my Mac and take it over on a thumb drive and see how that works. 

You'll get it going just fine then! I first extracted them on my old Dell Inspiron from 2006 ;)

I've decided not to bother uploading any processed/sync'ed versions for ROTJ or TPM as many so many want to do it themselves (as did I in the first place!). I'm still going do them and keep tinkering (of course!) and share anything useful should I encounter it.

rnranimal said:

does anyone know of a way to decode the raw files on Mac?

second question, is there not an LFE in the DTS mix?

I would suggest virtualization, except I'm not convinced the plugin works within a virtual machine. I tried Winamp 2.91 in Windows XP mode within Windows Virtual PC and it worked, but the plugin wouldn't and spat out an error. A quick online search of the error message showed some software won't work with Virtual Machines, something to do with certain processer features not being available or something (I forget exactly, as I just went and used a different computer).

Perhaps someone you know who has a Windows machine? The process of decoding them is actually very quick, takes a few seconds per channel of sound from each reel. I'd make a torrent of the decoded tracks in RAW PCM or WAV so those who don't have Windows can have a play with these files, but with my upload speed it would take a very long time to seed it.