Cadavra

It was recently suggested in another thread that the community is not “investing the time and expertise to cutting out Palpatine altogether” from Episode IX. It’s more than understandable why, given how deeply ingrained he is and all the work it would take to not only remove him but replace him with material that’s plausible and functional (let alone satisfying), which would require at a minimum substantial redubbing and VFX work, and very likely filming new footage.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that this is an avenue that should not be allowed to wither on the vine. So here is my attempt to dust off this old thread with an overhaul and expansion of the concept I proposed way back in 2021, which I’ve been privately noodling with ever since. Some parts are the same, others are tweaked or more fleshed out. So, without further ado:

ARRIVAL ON EXEGOL

As Kylo explores the temple, he hears the voice of a Sith Cultist, the head of the Exegol operation who we’ll simply call The Overseer (new dialogue):

• OVERSEER: At last, Inquisitor Snoke’s pupil graces us.
• KYLO: I killed Snoke. I’ll kill you.
• OVERSEER: Such hate! More than enough to hear the wayfinder’s call. And it led you here. Just as our Master foresaw.

Kylo finds the black-robed cultists working at cloning tanks. Instead of Snokes or Palpatines, inside the tanks we see dormant Jango clones (Sith Troopers). He eventually stands before the Overseer, a black-robed figure attached to a mechanical rig. This would be edited footage of Palpatine, with his face simply blacked out and his voice dubbed over, as this is the only figure Kylo interacts with in the source footage. I’m not opposed to something more elaborate like face replacement, but in the interest of feasibility I think complete shadow would be all you’d strictly need. (Also, the above demonstrates one way new lines could be used to succinctly convey backstory for Snoke, tying up that loose end.)

• KYLO: Who are you? Sith?
• OVERSEER: No. We are but worshippers. Ordained by Lord Bane to serve all who followed him through the centuries. We remain ever faithful, for the dark side is eternal.
• KYLO: What is this?
• OVERSEER: Organa’s search for Skywalker made Snoke fearful, impatient. He did not wait for us to finish our work. But the Emperor’s Contingency is finally ready…and yours to claim.
• KYLO: What could you give me?
• [Cue Star Destroyers rising to the sky. A new shot of Sith Troopers assembling would be nice too, but not essential.]
• OVERSEER: All that remains of the Imperial Starfleet. Hidden years ago, left for us to repair until the Force chose someone fit to use it…This was the final order of Lord Sidious.

RESISTANCE BRIEFING

SherlockPotter has a solid example of how to revise the scene to excise Palpatine for his edit; specifics would depend on what direction an edit chose to take other aspects of the story in: https://streamable.com/o3l4hy

REY-KYLO EXPOSITION CONVERSATIONS

This would also depend in large part on what a specific edit wants to do with non-Palpatine story elements, but for illustrative purposes I’ll just use my preference, which runs with the “Rey unlocks repressed memory she killed her parents” concept brainstormed elsewhere, and eliminates Force-Skype dueling from two places at once (which personally is a huge annoyance of mine that kills even the best TROS edits for me, along with teleporting the lightsabers):

First, when Rey and Kylo connect while she’s in his quarters, replace “wherever you are” with “so that’s where you are” as she’s picking up the dagger, which is all the clue he needs. He then says “I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it. What I saw…I’ll come tell you,” and the connection breaks. That’s all you need. Have him learn where she is right away & act on it right away.

Then, when they face each other in hangar:

• KYLO: I saw what you did. What you will become. Your parents…you killed them. [cue flashback] You don’t just have power. You have the dark side. We could be a dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. Together…we’ll take the throne.
• KYLO: You know what you need to do. You know.
• REY: I do. [Falcon arrives, escape]

(Side note: I hate the dyad concept too, so in my own hypothetical dream trilogy edit that will never happen, I’ve reduced it to a fancy word used just once for a union Kylo wants to create, not some quasi-prophesized once-in-a-century nonsense. But I digress.)

POE & FINN TALKING ABOUT OCHI SEARCHING FOR REY

The perfect Palpatine removal from that scene is already in the Rey Nobody version of Ascendant.

TRIALS OF EXEGOL

This is where things get complicated. I actually don’t think cutting Palpatine out of the confrontation with Rey is all that hard (partly because we won’t…exactly); the trick is what to do with Ben now that there’s nobody to suck the magic Dyad juice out of them and toss him in a hole. Does he kill the Knights of Ren and take off? Does he stand with Rey, stare down the Overseer, and they just kiss as the bad guy runs away or gets crushed by a rock? Does Rey still die from something and get resurrected by Ben at the cost of his own life?

Don’t worry; those options all sound pretty crappy to me too. So, here’s what I propose, to give both Rey and Ben satisfying, meaningful roles in the final battle. I admit upfront it’s pretty radical, and would require enlisting some talented folks from the fanfilm community for assistance (and a small smattering of face deepfaking). However, while it’s far beyond the sphere of fanediting, I believe it’s within the scope of what could be done by a talented fanfilm crew, if one could be reached out to and convinced to take an interest. So here goes:

1. Rey flies to Exegol, dropping a trail of nav markers for the Resistance fleet as normal (except nobody calls Luke’s ship Red 5 because that’s stupid; Luke hadn’t been Red 5 since he became Rogue Leader, and it’s not like they retire callsigns like football jerseys and I’m getting off-topic again). She lands, and comes face-to-face with The Overseer:
   o OVERSEER: What have we here? Another contender for the throne?
   o REY: I haven’t come to lead the First Order…I’ve come to end them. [alternate possibility: “I haven’t come to take the dark throne…I’ve come to end it.”]
   o OVERSEER: Really. As a Jedi?
   o REY: Yes.
   o OVERSEER: [laughs] Many have said such things. Some even believed them. But you know better, child. Do you think we cannot see through you? Here, of all places? Fear and anger are your earliest memories. They define you.
   o REY: All you want is for me to hate, but I won’t. Not even you.
   o OVERSEER: So you say. But Exegol has a way of…unveiling truths. We shall see soon enough.
2. Rey’s surroundings are swallowed in shadow, then she is bombarded with all-new visions. She sees and hears the darksiders of the past, herself screaming for her parents’ ship to come back which transitions to her seemingly killing Chewbacca, Luke’s “you went straight to the dark,” Kylo’s “you wanted to prove to my mother you’re a Jedi but you’ve proven something else,” etc.
   o There’s a lot of opportunity to go nuts here, showing darksiders from all the previous movies as well as from sufficiently-convincing video game CGI or fan films (with dark-side vision filter to mask discrepancies and imperfections). Even more opportunity to use audio from KOTOR, Clone Wars, Force Unleashed, Battlefront, The Son, etc. Can use TROS Palpatine footage as well, to salvage Ian’s great performance without having Palpatine literally back. (Great source for live-action Son: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hkDbKk7L-0) All the while, voices taunt her with lines like “We all live on here”; “Admit what you are. See what you could have been. What you still can be”; “The Sith are the family you’ve been searching for. The only family that will have you”; “Why do you think your awakening in the Force was so quick? So easy? You were using the dark side. It was using you.” Etc.
3. All of this culminates with the Dark Rey duel (with Death Star background obscured by shadow), which will have been removed from its original position earlier in the movie. Dark Rey knocking Rey over cuts to Rey lying injured on the floor, vision of Dark Rey on the throne.
4. As the Overseer’s voice taunts an apparently-defeated Rey, the vision transitions to Palpatine unleashing a massive storm of Force Lightning, though we don’t see it actually connect with the Resistance fleet. Perhaps an over-the-top montage can be constructed of the lightning destroying planets or electrocuting her friends, just to make especially obvious the visuals are not literally happening.
5. Eventually Rey calms herself, pleading with the Jedi spirits to “be with me.” She hears the voices, rises to her feet, and as the spirits appear behind her (thanks to John’s amazing edit), their light begins to dissipate the darkness. As she rises, she responds to Palpatine’s “You are nothing!” With “I… am a Jedi.” (https://streamable.com/f18whe) Keep Rey defeating “Palpatine,” since because it’s a vision the imagery can be symbolic and doesn’t have to make literal sense.
6. The visions fade away, as do the Jedi spirits. Rey has rejected the darkness, passed the ultimate trial, and is now a true Jedi Knight—perhaps with new audio of the old masters knighting her: “By the right of the Council, by the will of the Force, rise…Jedi Knight.” (Resource: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zKP0K8CLDY)
7. While all this has been going on, Ben has arrived on Exegol. He goes not specifically to save Rey (who he knows can handle the Overseer and must face her vision trial herself), but because the “handful” of Jedi students that TLJ mentioned disappearing with Kylo are alive there, imprisoned. The Knights of Ren confront him on the way there, and that fight ensues (there are a number of different ways to go here, conveyed partly by dubbing KoR—did some students become KoR, how many prisoners, etc). This accomplishes multiple things: give Ben a significant contribution, partially rectify his first villainous act (a chance Anakin never got), and save Luke’s New Jedi Order in some small way, rectifying one of the ST’s biggest, most inexcusable defects.
8. Back in the throne room, the Force blast shatters the arena, (implicitly) killing the Overseer. The red guards attack, Rey dispatches them, Ben arrives. They exchange meaningful looks, then Ben (his back to the camera) says something like “we’re not done yet” (callback to TFA), “follow me,” whatever.
9. New scene of Rey & Ben running through hallway (body-doubles shot from behind) as Ben leads Rey to Jedi cell. She opens it, is met with “thank you,” “who are you,” etc. Crop in close-up of Daisy looking around. Rey asks “Ben?” But he’s slipped away in the confusion.
10. As part of whatever new ending is constructed (I have ideas about that too, but they’re for another thread), add a scene of Ben in self-imposed exile somewhere—possibly Tatooine (also convincingly mocked up in SherlockPotter’s Untold thread), or Yavin 4 (the “Adam Driver vs Dinosaurs” movie “65” has some scenes that would be useful for that).

So, the big question: how? Mostly just editing, AI linework, and visual magic of the kind this community has proven adept at. The only new footage that would need to be filmed would be the prison hallway—which would only be needed for my personal proposal for what to do with Ben on Exegol, and would not be necessary for an edit that came up with something else. Regardless, it wouldn’t need action, stunts, an elaborate set, or major VFX. But it would need:

• A hallway with at least one suitable door to a holding cell. Ideally it would fit with the dark stone look of the temple, but if we assume it has to have secluded underground areas for the Final Order’s more technical work, maybe we could get away with a more metal-looking setting, with some of the blue-white light flashing from an open door/lift/staircase/opening in the background to tie it together and mark a transition. Lighting could further obscure the environment.
• 2 body doubles in screen-accurate cosplay of Rey and Ben and appropriate hairdos. Mostly shot from behind, with maybe some minimal deepfaking to sell it. No speaking lines.
• Anywhere from 6 to 12 actors to play Luke’s students (depending on how many we decide became the Knights of Ren). Minimal acting required; need convincing costumes & makeup, ideally a couple in decent alien masks/makeup.
• The lighting/filming/directing/etc. expertise to put it all together and make it happen.

I know how ambitious this is. I know it’ll probably never happen. But that’s the point of brainstorming, right? Shoot for the moon and see what if any wheels it inspires to start turning.

s88 said:

I appreciate the insights offered (even you Grand Admiral). I do acknowledge there is no ‘one way’ and the points made regarding the original material making it difficult to find an alternative storyline is completely justified.

My repetitive take is there is no balance to the fan edit offerings for tRoS. The majority have felt the need to include the third act arc (knowing the transparent desperation of Disney exec’s) so in essence the talented community has decided to keep resurrecting the wrongs already committed. I hope for more diversity to the tROS fan edits to bring balance to the…

I’m with you on the need for more and better Sheevless edits of TROS, which (having obsessively brainstormed theoretical outlines of how to do it for years), I believe CAN be done with only a handful of newly-filmed shots, which would be ambitious but within the scope of what the better fanfilms have pulled off. But rather than derailing a project thread for an edit with a specific vision and purpose, perhaps we’re overdue to dust off one of the old No-Palpatine Brainstorming threads.

(In the meantime, as a shameless plug, might I interest you in a fan script guaranteed to be Palp-free? Link in signature 😃)

So I’ve FINALLY seen Starlight, and it absolutely lives up to the hype. From tweaks that fix some of my biggest pet peeves (the awkward exposition between Han & Leia at the base), to clever little details I wasn’t expecting (the Illum mention, the Falcon’s hyperdrive shorting out), to overhauled scenes that are totally seamless (the dice, Kylo on the Falcon, the additions to the Forceback vision). But the biggest thing, connecting Rey’s Force intuition to the dark side, was almost shocking in how effectively it came off given what you have to work with.

In all honesty, I’ve stayed away from the Sequel Era for a long time purely because The Rise of Skywalker kills it for me, and I can’t honestly say how much I’ll revisit the trilogy in the future. However, when I do, I’m thrilled Starlight will be there to begin it. Bravo.

Phantom Menace era comics, toys, & games followed the 90s EU’s lead of going all-out with lightsaber colors, then once George established with Attack of the Clones that he wanted (almost) all prequel Jedi confined to blue & green the EU of the era pretty much fell in line. I’m not sure just how explicit the following explanation was established pre- or post-Disney, but I always figured that circle was squared simply by the idea that blue & green crystals were the only ones that naturally occurred on Illum, whereas Jedi from earlier periods were open to a broader range of crystal sources and the New Jedi Order had to look elsewhere for crystals due to its more limited resources & knowledge about the old practices (especially if one takes as canon the Empire/First Order’s transformation of Illum into Starkiller Base). Under that interpretation, the narrower range of lightsaber colors can be considered symbolic of how stagnant the Jedi Order had become by the time Palpatine saw his opportunity to take over.

No idea, sorry.

David Kaylor’s OT fanedit set “The Final Cut” is in 4K and uses Ady’s Emperor, although I have not watch his ESB myself so I can’t vouch for how the upscaling turned out. His fantastic ROTJ is currently my go-to edit of that movie, however.

Oh no. Hope you feel better soon, Adywan.

Ronster, I’m so sorry to hear that. I lost my mom a few years ago and know exactly what you mean. While the pain never goes completely away, it does get easier to to manage and to focus on the good in life. Take care.

I’ve finally finished a longtime dream of making my own set of custom covers for all the saga films in a consistent style that I like.

These are hardly the most elaborate, and certainly don’t break any new ground design-wise, but I’m happy with them, and would like to highlight one feature in particular: the backs are meant to easily accommodate users’ own content lists or descriptions for whatever discs, fanedits, preservations, or extras you choose to put in them, so they can be your own “Ultimate Edition,” no matter what “ultimate” means to you. The logos I’ve used on the bottom of the backs for illustrative purposes can similarly be replaced with ease.

All the covers were made for standard Blu-ray cases, though you can use your own logo for DVD, Blu-ray, 4K UHD, or USB depending on your preferences. I hope you enjoy them!

The First Order rises. Having destroyed the capital of the New Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless forces to march across the galaxy.

Reeling from their failure to prevent the Starkiller atrocity, many in the Resistance now believe that only the return of Luke Skywalker can restore hope in the face of terror.

But first, they must survive. Anticipating swift retaliation from the First Order, the brave freedom fighters mount a desperate evacuation…

First, Obi-Wan is nearing knighthood when TPM starts, so “was I any different when you taught me” would be referring to when he was much younger. While TPM doesn’t really say one way or the other, it’s reasonable to assume he didn’t start out a calm, reserved, model student – I mean, how many of us do?

Second, Obi-Wan still displays a bit of a reckless streak in the rest of the PT – diving out a window to hitch a ride on an assassin droid, kicking a bounty hunter off a ledge while still wired to him, etc. Maybe that sort of thing was a result of Anakin’s habits rubbing off on him a little, but still.

Thanks! Yeah, each movie gets its own drive for multiple edits and preservations, plus associated extras, which helps give the set breathing room to add any new gems I discover.

Maybe it’d be more feasible to fit a little display with atmospheric readings onto the wall for Han to glance at before grabbing the masks?

Has anyone experimented with replacing the dated digital model of Maul’s top half falling down the shaft? A CGI replacement probably wouldn’t look more realistic, but if it was smaller like we were seeing it further down, its fakeness might be less obvious. People are doing some wild stuff with Battlefront assets these days…

The old explanation for saber colors also provided the groundwork (albeit probably unintentionally) for a fairly elegant headcanon explanation for why we (mostly) only see blue and green lightsabers in the prequels despite the EU having a way bigger variety – maybe those are the only colors of crystal that grew on Ilum, so Ilum being the only place the PT-era Jedi took students to build their lightsabers could have served as another sign of how stagnant the Order had become in its last days. Then Luke’s New Jedi Order develops a broader range of lightsaber colors again through exploring the full range of Jedi history and tradition.

The Jar Jar version should probably remain a fun standalone extra, but I’d love to see surface footage of Alderaan added to the movie itself. I don’t know if it’s still online anywhere, but years ago Timstuff (I think it was him?) had a great mockup that would be amazing to see fully realized.

EDIT: Yep, here it is!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hMOG9qN5rg

Thanks! And come to think of it, it’d be best to cut out “let it burn,” partly because menacing lines about letting stuff burn are a more modern trope that might feel out of place in the original film, but mostly so it’s not a completely foregone conclusion that Alderaan is toast regardless of whether Leia cooperates.

Random, admittedly half-baked idea: turn the TROS scene of Palpatine talking to Pryde into an ANH scene of Palpatine talking to Tarkin. Don’t know how feasible that would be, but it might be a good way of incorporating the Emperor into an alternate version of the only Lucas movie in which he doesn’t appear:

“The princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plan. But her foolish act will be in vain…send the Death Star to a world they know. Let it burn.”

A better movie could’ve done some cool stuff establishing that the Exegol cultists were not only locals or pilgrims that worship the dark side (while not being powerful in it themselves), but perhaps a legion of potential henchmen who have done grunt work (thefts, spying, manual labor, assassinations) for the Sith Lords ever since the days of Bane. Or they could’ve even been the original Sith species from which the first Sith Lords got their name in the Expanded Universe.

Regarding the common complaint that nobody seems suspicious about the Republic being handed the clone army on a silver platter, has anyone experimented with beefing up the dialogue of the final Mace/Obi/Yoda scene in AOTC to suggest the Jedi do try to investigate between films, but had no choice but to accept the clones for the time being? Seems to me there are enough lines in the prequels about plots and puzzles to cobble something together. As a rough proof of concept based on nothing more than lines I remember offhand:

• MACE: Where is your apprentice?
• OBI-WAN: On his way to Naboo, escorting Senator Amidala home…Do you believe what Count Dooku said about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn’t feel right.
• YODA: Joined the dark side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now.
• MACE: Nevertheless, I feel we should keep a closer eye on the clones.
• YODA: I agree. Dangerous and disturbing this puzzle is.
• MACE: Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.
• YODA: Speculation is all we have. Proof we need.
• OBI-WAN: There is a massive shift in the Force; we all feel it. But I have to admit that without the clones, it would not have been a victory.
• YODA: Victory? Victory, you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has.

Granted, you would still have the potential issue that when ROTS picks up, it’s three years later and the Jedi are still working with the clones with no follow-up about that investigation, but then again they’re obviously suspicious enough that they want Anakin to spy on Palpatine.

As far as lightsabers go, it’s definitely a requirement that an apprentice demonstrate the ability to build a first lightsaber of their own, but I always assumed the Order weren’t necessarily sticklers about full Knights or Masters using replacements they acquired after that threshold is cleared – like how the EU novel Rogue Planet had Obi-Wan using Qui-Gon’s lightsaber as late as a year or two after he was knighted.

Valid points about giving Kylo such an ignoble defeat so early in the trilogy. Although how big an issue it’ll be for the viewer depends on whether you see him primarily as an antagonist and threat. For me, the fact that they let us know so early he was Han & Leia’s son had me seeing him not as a Big Bad for the heroes to ultimately overcome but rather as a quasi-protagonist in his own right, a screwed-up character on a journey of his own (of course, whether that was a good story decision is a different question).

Regarding Jedi robes, the apparent inconsistency was eventually explained that Jedi tended to dress similarly to common folk across the galaxy to express their rejection of ostentation. Even so, Old Ben’s clothes are noticeably simpler in material and tailoring than Prequel Obi-Wan’s tunics, belts, & boots, which makes sense considering that PT-era Jedi would’ve still had to consider presentability at least a little bit, as part of their function as Republic diplomats.

I have my issues with TFA, but Rey beating Kylo was not among them. I thought it was really effective the way we were shown (rather than told) step-by-step that (1) Rey has melee weapon experience, and has probably been defending herself for a good chunk of her life the way we see on Jakku; (2) Chewie’s bowcaster is serious business; (3) Kylo goes into the duel nursing a serious injury (in light of which it’s impressive that he’s still able to stand, let alone fight); (4) even so, Rey is thoroughly on defense until she lets the Force take over. In fact, that was one of the things that (foolishly) led me to expect better from TROS. Boy, was I wrong.

When I heard about the most-recently-reported version of George’s ST ideas, I was heartbroken by how badly I wanted it, only to know that now it will never be.

I’m not sure about the specifics of Maul surviving and bringing in a version of Darth Talon, but putting the challenges of postwar rebuilding front and center would have been perfect for making the trilogy a relevant part of a single story, and the idea of a criminal underworld helmed by a darksider also would’ve made for a much more distinct threat than Empire 2.0 in the First Order. Of course, it also had the exact story I wanted for Luke.

And though it might not have ultimately been the best decision, even the Maul idea could have had potential if handled right. Plus, the revelation that George was considering it means that he was laying the groundwork for a Star Wars Episode VII that was never so much as teased, leaked, or hinted at all the way back in 2011, which is absolutely wild to me.

Also, while George’s interest in Talon was kind of eye-rolling to me, it also inspired some additional crazy speculation. First, consider that this Talon obviously would not have been the same character as the EU one (who lived over a century after the movies). Second, consider that Solo was the brainchild of the Kasdans and the idea of a Han Solo movie was at least on George’s mind prior to the Disney sale.

So let’s imagine that, in a world where George keeps the company, a version of Solo comes out that may differ in plenty of details but has the same broad strokes as the Disney one…including ending with Qi’ra heading to Dathomir.

Maybe George’s Qi’ra is a Force-sensitive Twi’lek who Maul takes as his apprentice…

Unpopular opinions:

• Despite recognizing its flaws (mainly handling of the Anakin-Padme romance and failure to do ANYTHING to explore how Owen’s history with Anakin and Shmi colored his desire that Luke have nothing to do with Obi-Wan), I un-ironically love Attack of the Clones. Christopher Lee, Ewan McGregor, our first real Mandalorian action, Slave I in action, mind-tricking drug dealers, dozens of lightsabers onscreen at once, making the previous movie’s comic relief the unwitting dupe of a dictator, lightsaber-dueling Yoda (maybe that one should be its own unpopular opinion), the first full-scale battle of the Clone Wars…that’s all great stuff.

• The Rey-Kylo duel on Starkiller Base is one of my favorite lightsaber duels – probably somewhere in my Top 3 – because to me it feels like it blends the energy of the prequel duels with the rawness of the OT duels. It also benefitted greatly from those new prop sabers that actually cast the proper glows on the actors and sets.