doubleofive said:
Yes, they re-edited that scene for some reason. No one really knows why.
You can pretty much use this statement for every change Lucas makes ;)
nightstalkerpoet said:
The Wizard of Oz is an odd case there, because I don't think anything could be changed to make the film be better. Replacing the cowardly lion with a Realistic, CGI lion would not make the film better. Removing a walking trash can robot from Star Wars COULD improve Star Wars for the better.
Its not an odd case, Star Wars is an odd case ;)
I cant name any classic movie (pre Star Wars) that has been updated or changed that is better in 2011. Lawrence of Arabia, Ben Hur, Wizard of Oz, heck even 2001 are EXACTLY the way they were shown in theaters, and they are still beloved today.
What Lucas & SE fans will never get about the OT is that the characters and the story are the reasons its beloved today, NOT the special effects. If the Special Effects were the #1 selling point in 1977, then the movie would not hold up today.
Just like Independence Day wowed audiences in 1996 because of the cool effects and the White House Blowing up. 15 years later? The movie is just another CGI-fest, with lame characters, no drama, and cheesy acting that goes in the vault of the only good thing about it is you can show off your surround sound.
Luke, Leia and Han, Vader, Kenobi, Yoda, The Emperor, Chewy, C3PO, R2D2, and Lando are the reason the OT still holds up today. I know thats why I still care about the movies, not some extra dewback on Tatooine ;)
nightstalkerpoet said:
- Star Wars does need to be updated to maintain its impact on new generations.
Then why does Wizard of Oz continue to be beloved by every generation since 1939? I have friends whose kids love that movie, no updates, just good ol 1939 sets/effects in the backround. Star Wars would be just as beloved today if the OOT version were on Bluray or DVD. Lucas has put this in everyones mind by updating the movies that they NEEDED to be updated but I never heard anyone complain abuot updating them in 1991, 1992, 1993....
I remember being over a friends house in the summer of '82, and her mom told me she read somewhere that the 3rd Star Wars movies was called 'Revenge of the Jedi.' Always stuck in my head because thats the first I heard of the movie at the time (no internet at the time), and I remember getting totally juiced for the summer of '83.
I was channel surfing the other night and caught the part where Lucas came out and gave the award to Darth Vader. It was pretty painful to watch as Lucas was only there to promote the 3-D movies, as that was the only thing he said.
Although Vader did mention about Lucas changing the movies and adding in more CGI!
Anchorhead said:
If I may, for just a second; With God as my witness, CO is not a sock account of mine.
;-)
Trust me, its me ;)
Don't get me wrong, I love the OOT as a kid growing up, but I did see SW in 77 and watched it on HBO in 1983 about 200 times. We didn't get a VCR til 1985, so I only saw Empire once in the theater until 5 years later when I could watch it as much as I want.
That is why I can always look at SW as just SW, because for many years, the Original is the only movie I saw countless times.
Not sure if I answered this before, but I honestly went back to being a Star Wars 77 fan and walked away from everything after that. I know many of you will question why I walk away from Empire Strikes Back? Empire and Jedi go together, and with all the changes to Jedi over the years, the movie is unwatchable at this point.
The Prequels, the SE, the lack of the OOT has just ruined the whole Star Wars experience, and the only way to forget about all that bullshit is to watch the original movie in the context of 1977. Nobody was related, no contradictions, just a standalone movie that has a beginning, middle and ending. I am old enough to remember Star Wars BEFORE Empire came out, so it is not hard for me to block out the sequels/prequels/SE, as The Original Star Wars was always my favorite anyway.
I always liked the scene where Obiwan was overlooking the Clones factory as the Empire music played in the backround, as it was foreshadowing the rise of the Palpatine and downfall of the republic.
Master Sifo-Dyas said:
So it is possible to have that kind of unity among the different kinds of SW-fans - once in a millenia - I guess.
The biggest problem in SW discussions these days is that each side has dug in and wont even concede anything to the other side.
The SE/Saga crowd almost enjoys that Lucas wont put out the OOT, because they feel we are bunch of whiners. Whereas they should want all versions on the Bluray because a SW boxset should be ultimate. I am like the Donnor Cut of Superman II more then the Lester Cut, but I would still want both versions on every future release simply because thats the way it should be.
But many our side is just as guilty at laughing at them for enjoying the PT and SE. When they admit to liking the PT or many of the changes, fans climb over them for being idiots.
It is a vicious cycle where each side had dug in, and nobody wants to bend in each. That is why I have given up arguing with the other side, because essentially even if they agree with you, they won't concede.
Monolithium said:
I'm not looking to win. I just want someone on the other side to acknowledge that my opinion is just as valid as theirs.
I wish it were like that on the internet, but nobody ever does that. Very rarely, you get someone from the other side you can have a rationale debate with. 99% of the time, it descends into vulgar, personal attacks, or the other side just pronounces they're right and thats the way it is.
Venture over to TFN, and cheack out the arguments there. It is like clockwork that each side disrespects the other.
Gaffer Tape said:
The lengths Lucas apologists will go to. And of course the quotes I provided from Lucas's speech to Congress were dismissed as not applying to him or his films. Because, you know... reasons. I just find it so amusing how threatened apologists are just because we don't share their opinion, and how they feel compelled to try to shut anyone down who doesn't toe the line. It's just so... creepy.
The sad thing is that a SW argument is the same as arguing with someone about politics, world affairs, sports, etc. People don't want to hear other opinions, and it is next to impossible to convice someone of your views.
I used to argue politics years ago, and then realized that I was wasting my time. The same goes with a SW argument, can anyone find someone on the internet say, "You know what, thats a good point, I may reconsider my stance on this." No, every argument ends up in vulgar insults, and then some one liner like, "Get over yourself, George Lucas didn't rape your childhood!"
Its not even worth it to waste your time trying to give your side of the argument about the OOT. If they don't want to listen, they are never going to agree with you. Just look at the republicans and democrats in Washington, the argument is finished before the first debate even starts!
I saw a quote once and it is kind of mean, but pretty true about arguing on the internet, "Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard."
Mean spirited, but pretty true!
These are my top 10 favorite movies in no order:
-Star Wars
-Empire Strikes Back
-The Godfather
-Back to the Future
-Caddyshack
-Hoosiers
-Rocky
-Field of Dreams
-Raiders of the Lost Ark
-Slap Shot
-Ghostbusters
After seeing the first weekend sales of the BluRay, it just shows me that Lucas could care less if we are still fans of the movies. The one thing you to concede about SW is that it continues to build fans with each generation.
Now I do not condone Lucas actions towards the originals, but why should he give a shit about the originals when this boxset sold well enough to keep the Lucasfilm gravy train rolling?
I have always said as long as a SW release is popular, Lucas will never change. The SE in theaters made loads of money, the PT movies made loads of money, the 2004 SE DVD's made loads of money, and now the 2011 Blurays will make loads of money.
There is no way Lucas needs to give in about the OOT, because there is enough fans who enjoy the SE or don't care about the changes that offset us.
Sorry guys, but I put my hands up at this point, and these sales figures show that we are not winning the battle. Lucas can do whatever he wants, and I can't come up with a reason in HIS mind that he should remaster the OOT.
Someone posted on another Bluray message board, that Star Wars Boxset finished #3 last week to Thor and X-Men.
It was from a link www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...o-1-dvd-238708
zombie84 said:
They reside at theforce.net boards. I have witnessed this myself in the last few days. It's hard to imagine what they wouldn't tolerate but I also think most of them are to a degree just saying that to convince themselves, if you gave them the choice I don't doubt almost every person would pick the silent version of that scene.
I havent posted there in years since I was permabanned, but this doesnt suprise me at all. Lucas can do ANYTHING, and they will defend it. The funny this is they keep using the same argument I have heard since 1997, "Well, its only a few minutes of changes, get over it!"
The problem is you have minutes of changes in 1997, minutes of changes in 2004, and now minutes of changes in 2011, so it is starting to add up! By 2030, they will say, "Well its only an hour of changes, but its not all 6 hours of the OT movies!"
theprequelsrule said:
I wish this were true, but Lucas is a stubborn SOB. As I said in an earlier post he hates the OOT and will never release it. Even if sales were disappointing he would probably just say "fuck it" and move on to the TV series. We will not get the OOT until George is dead and the people who take over (and only care about money) release it. Book it.
Lucas is a stubborn SOB, but he is still a businessman. He can do all of this 'revisionism' shit simply because anything he has released for SW since 1997 has not disappointed when it comes to making money. Whatever you want to say about the PT, whatever you want to say about the 97 SE, whatever you want to say about the 2004 DVD's, they all did HUGE business and made him big profits. So there is no reason in his opinion to change, as he looks at us as just a niche community of complainers who wont ruin his bottom line.
Lucas did an interview with Charlie Rose in 2004, and it was a telling quote (I am paraphrasing), "Lucasfilm was having financial problems in the late 80's and my financial guys came to me in the early 90's and said if you do the PT, here is the projected revenue over the next 10 years. I had to make a decision at that point to either do the PT, or walk away from SW forever."
Don't ever get fooled by his vision bullshit, he is still a businessman first. His daughter even said it, "The complainers will bitch and complain, but in the end they will buy it." As long as that happens, Lucas can keep making the changes. A backlash only works when people follow through!
TV's Frink said:
Buy or not buy - in my opinion it will have no bearing on the eventual availability of the OOT.
Lets just say for the sake of argument, the sales for this Bluray set are terrible. You don't think that Lucasfilm is going to continue to suppress the OOT? The reason Lucas can keep holding back the OOT is because he knows he has the diehards who will buy anything, and most of the fans on the fence who will waver but end up buying in the end.
The 2004 DVD's were the #1 seller of 2004, so there is no reason for Lucas to worry about the OOT fanbase because he is still making loads of money. His theory is for every OOT fan who boycotts, there is a new (younger fan) who is watching the movies for the first time who will not care. Remember Lucas is still a businessman and as long as the Bluray set sells well, that tells him there is a demand and no matter what fans think of the changes, they will still buy it.
The only way this shit will stop is if all the fans on the fence would boycott this release! I bought the 2004 DVD's, so I was guilty of keeping the Lucasfilm train going, but I boycotted it this time because I realized nothing will change until their sales are affected.
After seeing many deleted scenes, I think Lucas missed the boat when he did the SE. If he would released the OOT and SE with alot of deleted scenes cleaned up and inserted, it would have been interesting to see the movies that way. I'm not saying it makes the movies better, but THATS an alternative I would be interested to see rather then just stupid PT tie-ins that are jarring.
For instance, I would like to see alot of the early Luke scenes in Star Wars with Biggs and friends. Now it definitely would slow the pace of the movie, but considering thats my favorite, it would have been interesting to see.
Adium said:
So sad to see so many people breaking down and buying this garbage.
"I'm such a hypocrite. Just bought the set"
"I couldn't take it any longer. IT'S STAR WARS ON BLU RAY."
I agree. I don't want to hear any fan who bought this set still say they want the originals to be released. If you enjoy the changes and are enjoying this set, thats cool with me. But if all the people who are on the fence because they hate the changes didn't buy this and this set didn't sell well, we would see the OOT fully restored coming very soon because it would hit Lucas in the wallet. I bought the 2004 set so I am guilty of 'caving in' but I realized that I was part of the problem back then and no way was Lucas getting my money this time. As long as this set sells like hotcakes, the more chance we never see the OOT fully restored.
I just watched a load of deleted scenes on Youtube (they will probably be removed in the next few days). Some were interesting, but nothing was really overwhelming. It is always cool to see deleted scenes from a movie you have seen a zillion times, but I always watch these once and never watch them again.
So another reason why I'm glad I didn't buy this set! Thanks Youtube!
Maybe Katie Lucas tweet should have been:
"The haters will hate and complain, and instead of buying this overpriced set just for the deleted scenes, they watched them for free on Youtube."
I didn't cave as I am Star Wars BluRay 'Free' today, and I will always remember Katie Lucas's tweet (I am paraphrasing), "The haters will always hate and complain, and then buy the BluRay set."
Thanks Katie for motivating me to avoid your fathers products. ;)
dark_jedi said:
I just can't wait to walk into the Store tomorrow and see people boycotting and telling potential buyers not to buy, and handing out stickers and flyers and such, I bet there will be NONE of this LMAO! it is all just people on a few forums with a large dose of keyboard courage ranting and raving.
George Lucas has NOT swayed in his decision for how many years? and you think it is going to magically change now from ALL the Fans? how hard is it to just accept reality and move on?
Uh, Mr. Lucas said the OOT would never be released again in the 1995 Video release, and said in an interview in 2003 that the OOT didn't exist anymore.
Then in 2006, he put out the OOT on DVD, albeit non-anamorphic versions, but he still put out something on DVD that he said 'didn't exist.'
And do you even think that set would have been released if fans like us didn't write Lucasfilm or other ways that showed there was a demand for the set? How come he didn't release the 97 Versions on DVD? Because there is no demand and no one is crying for them.
The OOT fully restored is just like the OT deleted scenes, they are used in different releases to create demand for the essentially the same product. Lucas could have put out the OT deleted scenes in the 2004 DVD Set, but he knew that would be a major selling point in future releases. I know many people who don't care about the movies, and just want the deleted scenes, and the only way to get that is buying the boxset.
So please don't say that Lucasfilm doesn't hear the fans and what they want. Remember, he is still a businessman.
zombie84 said:
CO: Same for me. Feels weird, eh? Even the guy who wrote a 600-page university-endorsed textbook on the 6-part saga is boycotting this!
The sad thing is I see the commericals, and I am so jaded by Lucas's bullshit, I don't even get that rush like the old days of seeing that first trailer for a new SW movie, etc. Even in 2004 with the Hayden change, I was still of that opinion, "Well the changes annoy me, but I can put up with it."
I remember thinking a few months back that I would cave once all the promotions and reviews start filtering in, but nothing has changed. I still think the set will sell great, and in the end my opposition wont make a difference. But I really don't care about that anymore, this is more about my self respect!
Tomorrow the Blurays come out, and this will be the first big SW release that I am not a part of. Pretty sad, that i have to be a martyr towards these movies, but I would honestly feel dirty if I went out and bought the Bluray set and just keep thinking Lucas is laughing at me that I caved in again.
It should have never came to this, as he had a person like me for life.
Not that I agree with what I'm going to say, but I think Lucas continues to tinker with the OT simply because he feels it isn't perfect in his mind.
Think about, other then CGI Yoda, what has he changed in the PT on the BluRay release? Nothing, so he thinks the PT is exactly what he wants portrayed on screen. He continues to tinker with the OT thinking this will jive perfectly when a moviegoer watches them 1-6.
I actually find it more sad WHAT he changes, rather then the fact that he continues to change the movies every few years. When I see Jedi Rocks, or Greedo shooting first, or Vaders NOOOO, it shows how bad a filmaker George has become. It shows that he is well past his prime, because none of these changes are even remotely good.
It's like watching the fatter Elvis in 1977 when he was a shell of himself, or Brett Favre last year after retired and unretired 3 times and getting knocked around at 41 years old. Its like looking at Joan Rivers with all that plastic surgery, and you know that the younger, funnier Joan Rivers is somewhere in that face.
I'm sure there is a part of Lucas that is getting off about pissing the old fans off, but I firmly believe that he is just doing what he feels makes the movies better. Just look at the PT, that is HIS 100% vision. And how did that turn out?