CO

DuracellEnergizer said:

Mavericks said:

So, if you decide to freeze Han, just take him from the cell, separate him from his campanions  and made the rest of your job. Why should Leia, wookie and even robots be kept together in all their way to the Carbon Camera?

For emotional resonance. The scene wouldn't have much in the way of gravitas if it was just Vader and a few ugnaughts in the room dipping Han into the vat.

Plus Vader gets to finally see the droid he created as a kid named C3PO.
 

Another ridiculous PT nod to the OT Lucas created!

AntcuFaalb said:

Fang Zei said:

I stopped posting there the moment everyone lept to Lucasfilm's defense after they announced they were putting 1993-quality transfers on frickin' dvd.

Did anyone there make ridiculous arguments like "It's 1970s film quality! You can't ask for any better!"?

 The saddest lines were from TFN'ers who tell OOT fans regarding the 2006 OOT Non-Anamorphic DVD's:

"You are getting what you deserved now, since you have disrespected him for years now.  Just remember Lucas said these versions don't exist, so you should be lucky you're getting anything!"

Statements like that always seemed odd to me since we were all SW fans?  As much as I don't like the Prequels, I would always support a release of the Original PT movies if Lucas decided to change those movies too.  I never understand why TFN'ers cared if Lucas decided to release the OOT versions, since they were Special Editions fans anyway?  As a SW fan, I wouldn't have a problem if Lucas released a Boxset of the OOT, '97, '04, '11 versions like Bladrunner, that way any fans of any version could be happy. 

Very strange people over at TFN, but I would love to talk to them personally and see if they are just circling the wagons for Lucas or they actually believe the BS they say.

DuracellEnergizer said:

TFN's getting worse all the time.

 I log on every once in awhile just to get a good laugh at how wacky they are.  They have one current thread 'ANH vs TPM' and you have to pick which one you enjoy more and why.   You have to read the replies from the people who picked TPM, and why they rank ANH as their least favorite! 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-phantom-menace-vs-a-new-hope.50016927/

The Original Star Wars Trilogy is one of the few movies that are fun to watch yet still have substance along with a combination of drama, humor and mythology along with special effects.

That's pretty hard to pull off because usually one of them dominates the others in today's blockbusters.  As luckydube56 said about the Dark Knight, its a great movie, but it just doesn't hold the replay simply because it isnt fun to watch.  Then you have movies like Transformers, which rely heavily on CGI and action, and have no replay value because they lack any character development or substance.  Then you have the endless parade of Comic Book movies, that lack the drama or humor, or sometimes the substance that leads to replay value.

Star Wars has all of those things in it, and that is why I never tire of those original 3 movies.  Maybe its just because CGI is too easy these days, and directors don't have to worry about the other stuff to get teenagers to plop down money for a movie, or maybe just Hollywood is out of ideas, but I rarely go to summer movies anymore simply because they lack many things that made Star Wars great. 

The whole 'Post-Vietnam' argument about Star Wars in the documentary is another attempt by Lucas to re-write history.

Star Wars was beloved by everyone in 1977, and big part of that audeince was people like myself (young kids).  We weren't old enough to understand the ramifications of the Vietnam War, so the thought never crossed our minds.  Star Wars succeeded in 1977 because it was a great movie, it appealed to everyone, and had ground-breaking special effects. 

And people forget that Rocky came out in 1976, where he was a Luke Skywalker-like hero that fans could get behind and love in the movie.

I would ask all new fans of SW to ignore all of Lucas's propaganda documentaries.  Just remember he said in 2005, "There are no more SW movies, as the story is about the Tragedy of Darth Vader, and the movies are meant to be watched 1-6"

And now we have the Sequel Trilogy 8 years later.....

I have always said if Lucas would have just changed a few special effects in the OT movies, fans like me would still be on his side. 

I only got mad when he started tampering with scenes:  Greedo shooting first, deleting Sebastian Shaw from the force ghost, and Jedi Rocks.

Even though I still prefer the OOT versions, I wouldn't have complained as much as I do now, and probably would have just lived with the SE if he just updated effects.

Didn't realize I posted in this thread in October 2005.  Oh well, atleast I have been consistent:

CO said:

Kinda agree with everyone, if it was just effects, I don't have a problem with it. But when it comes to additional scenes, or change/editing a scene, it is insulting, and makes me want O-OT even more. Lucas could have just really updated the effects in the original Star Wars, and slightly touched ESB & ROTJ and we all would have 'lived' with these SE Editions. But again, Lucas has miscalculated his original fanbase.

deepanddark20 said:

And for those who insist that it makes no sense to love Jedi but hate the prequels, get ready for this: I think the prequels are a suckfest from episode I all the way through episode 3.

This makes perfect sense simply because of the OT characters are better then the PT characters.

I actually like the story the PT tells, and think it expands the OT story much more and gives it more depth.  But I just don't care for the characters in the PT (mostly Anakin & Padme), so that pretty much ruins any enjoyment of the movies.

ROTJ is not as great as SW & Empire, but it still has Luke, Leia and Han, and I enjoy following those characters adventures for another 2 hours to tie up the trilogy. 

When I watch the PT, I almost watching it for the story simply because I loved the OT so much, but can't stomach any characters (although I do like Obiwan played by Ewan McGregor.)  But Anakin & Padme are the stars of the PT, and when you get to the end of ROTS, I am supposed to feel sad for their tragic fates as Padme dies and Anakin is placed in an iron lung, and I felt absolutely nothing towards either of them.  Whereas in the OT, when Han goes into Carbonite and you see Leia's face, you feel for those characters and their situation.

With all the debate about CGI vs Real Locations, Jar Jar, and how much politics should have been in the PT, the real problem for me will always be the characters, because I honestly don't give a rat's ass about their fates.

DominicCobb said:

Jeez, anyone who makes a first time viewer watch the PT than the OT should be eaten and then slowly digested over a thousand years.

The funniest (or saddest) post I saw at TFN regarding the order to see the movies for a new viewer:

"I am 100% confident they will enjoy the story 1-6, so have them start with The Phantom Menace and that will leave them wanting more...."

I was going to respond, "Or that will leave them wondering why they should watch the other 5 movies!"  But I been banned there so many times, I can't make comments like that anymore.

DominicCobb said:

CO said:

Saga 4-6.1-3 vs Saga 1-6

Not sure what you're meaning there, I'm assuming it's Saga 4-9 vs. Saga 1-6. That's the only one I think you're missing.

I constantly see arguments on TFN of Saga fans who say to watch the OT then the PT, and then others say to watch the PT then the OT for a first time viewer.

And you're right, I forgot about:

Saga 4-9 (Don't like the PT)  vs Saga 1-6 (Only like Anakin's Story) vs Saga 1-9!

AntcuFaalb said:

lol, can we expect originalsaga.com sometime soon?

... or is that just TFN? :-D

LOL!

Lucas is going to go back and have Jar Jar burp second when he is at the dinner table with Padme, Shmi, QuiGon and Kenobi, because he doesn't want him to be a cold-blooded slob!

Then all the TFN people will cry, "Jar Jar Burped First!" to the younger ST Fans!

darklordoftech said:

2. Don't make any effort to be consistent with the EU.

I don't think they are going to worry about the EU, simply because the casual fan and most SW fans (including me) have never read any EU stuff so we don't know the difference.

In saying that, I expect to hear from the EU fans once the ST comes out, as I am sure they will be one of the biggest bashers of this trilogy for that reason alone.  It will be comparable to OOT fans like us bashing the SE.

I actually thought about all the battles on the internet that will probably be going on once the ST comes out:

OOT fans vs SE fans

OOT fans vs Saga 1-6 fans

Saga 1-6 fans vs Saga 1-9 fans

Saga 4-6.1-3 vs Saga 1-6

EU fans vs ST fans

Did I leave anyone out???   LOL!

bkev said:

I tried to watch the Holiday Special last night for the first time in full.  Usually, I tend to skim it.  What a mistake that was.  

Wow.  I was with a few friends who did this to humor me, and one of them loved it.  Well, at least, for some reason he was captured by the Diahann Carroll segment.  Other than that, though, we all hated it.  I mean, I couldn't even ironically enjoy it.  Turned it off halfway through the cartoon.  And yes, for the record, we did use the rifftrax for part of it.

Worst decision I've made this week. 

I still remember watching it over my aunts house in 1978, and even as a 6 year old kid I thought it was horrible.  My only memory is Chewbacca's family, and I think Bea Arthur was in it?  I would like to watch it sometime again just to see HOW bad it was. 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Terminator 3 was lame, but not as lame as Terminator: Salvation. Instead of seing all those awesome glimpses of the War with the Machines from the first two films expanded to fill a feature length movie, we get watered-down tripe starring Christian Bale's ego.

I agree that T3 was watchable in way that when its on cable, I can somewhat enjoy it.  Salvation was horrendous as it compares to Superman III horrendous or Rocky V horrendous where I never will watch them ever again. 

DominicCobb said:

Please J.J., don't give Leia a lightsaber.

Or a hamburger, a twinkie, a donut , etc.  ;-)

Ryan McAvoy said:

I was watching the Star Wars open auditions on the news yesterday and I'm wondering did any OT.com members give it a shot?

OT.com members were the guardians of peace and the OOT version, until the dark times....the Special Editions.  For 20 years, the SW movies were untouched, until Lucas executed Order 66 on all OT.com members. 

As Lucas said, "All people who believe that Han Shot First are an enemy to the state and republic, once more the SE will rule and we shall have peace!"

Cue the Empire music......

;-)

ray_afraid said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I don't see anything wrong with the TFN comments.  For someone into the "saga", I would have to agree that ROTJ pretty well wrapped it up.  I'm just not into the "saga", and I think that SW is more enjoyable and more timeless as a standalone movie about Luke.  The other movies being fun afterthoughts.  If I were into the "saga" of it all, I'd probably feel as they do.

I completely agree. I don't see anything in the comments that were posted that make the TFNers seem crazy. They just like a few bad movies.

You guys are misunderstanding why I posted these comments.  For years and years they have talked down to people like me who said that Lucas's grand vision was never 6 movies, as he was making it up all along.  Darth Vader was never Lukes father in 1977, Leia wasn't Lukes brother til 1983, etc.....

I remember arguing with someone on TFN in 2005 about how Episode IV: A New Hope wasn't inserted until 1981 movie release.  He said, "That's baloney, the Saga has always been 6 movies  about the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker since 1977 and must be watched 1-6 so deal with it!"

The irony now is that THEY are the ones who are saying the same things to people like me (They wont recognize the ST the same way we didn't recognize the PT), and has proven my point that Lucas has been making this shit up since day one.  First it was a standalone movie in 1977, then 9 or 12 episodes in the early 80's, then 6 episodes in the 1990's, and now back to 9 episodes in 2013.

The point is they believed Lucas all these years, and they screamed at us for only seeing the saga as the OOT (3 movies), and now they are doing the same thing only recognizing 6 movies.  We are all smart enough to not take Lucas at his word, they have yet to grasp that concept.

AntcuFaalb said:

CO said:

I can't tell you how many TFN'ers have posted that they just wont recognize the ST, as they still believe that Lucas isn't involved in it at all.  They said the ST is like the EU, it exists, but it won't get into the way of their pretty little 'Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' story.

Hyperlinks, please!

I tried to cut and paste the best I can, but here are few gems from TFN from the fans who stand by 1-6 as the story.

Anchorhead said:

When Disney gives someone $4 billion for their product, they take over deciding how that product is handled.  All this blather about Lucas being very involved, consulting, talking to the director and writer, etc, etc is just damage control for the TFNers, who have already decided their world has come to an end. 

The ironic thing is that the TFN'ers DON"T want Lucas involved, because that will contradict everything they have fought for in the past 10 years regarding the 'The Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' bullshit. 

First, they don't want Lucas involved so if anyone complains about the ST they can point it all at JJ Abrams.  But now that Lucas is (involved in some capacity), it will give ammo to the people who bashed Lucas during the PT days.

Second, they don't want Lucas involved so they can call the ST an 'add on' story so Episode 1-6 can stay as the real story.  For years and years those morons called out any of us who questioned that Lucas never intended the story to be 'The Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' in 1977.  Now with Lucas involved with the ST, it throws the whole 1-6 story out the door, as the story is now 1-9. 

I can't tell you how many TFN'ers have posted that they just wont recognize the ST, as they still believe that Lucas isn't involved in it at all.  They said the ST is like the EU, it exists, but it won't get into the way of their pretty little 'Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' story.

It's comical to listen to them rationalize it now, as I keep shoving it in their face that the Saga is now 1-9, and they go crazy!  Or better yet I say the saga is Episodes 4,5,6,7,8,9 and the PT doesn't exist!  LOL!

ImperialFighter said:

It seems that George put a year or so into planning what comes next...

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/29034/lucas-put-a-year-into-the-next-star-wars

I have no problem with Lucas writing the outline or the general story for the ST, as long as he stays away from directing and dialogue. 

Michael Arndt is writing Episode 7, while JJ Abrams is directing Episode 7, and Lucas is more involved in the macro part of Episode 7 laying the ground work for the Trilogy.  That worked best in ESB, where Kasdan wrote the script, Kershner directed the movie, and Lucas created the overall outline of the movie.

I only wish Lucas would have done this with the PT, and it would have been much better.

Bingowings said:

The whole Episode IV thing since the early eighties sort of makes a trilogy an all or nothing proposal.

Lucas has changed the movies so many times, he could have did away with the episode numbers altogether in the late 90's.

If you remember, even the 1997 VHS Boxes on the sleeve did not contain the Episode #'s, as they were just Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi.  Lucas didn't start putting episode numbers on the sleeves of home video until the Episode I DVD came out.  In fact, I remember leading up to the opening of Episode I, he actually called it Episode I for the first time, as he never did that in the 80's.  They didn't advertise Return of the Jedi as Episode VI, they advertised it as Return of the Jedi.  Or Revenge of the Jedi in 1982.  ;-)

Heck, Lucas made Luke and Leia siblings after they smooched, he could have easily deleted the episode numbers from the movies and just released one prequel movie and he would have been fine. 

I always thought Lucas should have done just one 3+hour prequel movie, instead of a whole trilogy.   I know that he would make more money with a trilogy, but I think a singular prequel movie would have done much better with public overall.

We didn't need a trilogy because I think the 3 movie idea poses so many problems.  The main point of the Prequels was to show how Anakin turned to Darth Vader, and by having 3 movies and essentially waiting 6 years to see how he turned in Episode III, you have a build up of expectations which are ridiculous.  Then you get so much filler time in the Prequels because Lucas had to tell his story in 3 movies, so you get alot of stuff that people really don't care about. 

Lucas could have told the story of Anakin becoming Darth Vader in 1 movie (the same way Coppola showed Vito Corleone coming to power in Godfather II).  Lucas could have told the story during the backdrop of the Clone Wars as the Emperor is ascending to power, and all the red meat could have been in just this one movie. 

dan76 said:

 The pacing is awful whereas Empire is brilliantly paced, always pushing forward. Jedi lurches around and settles.

When I was mentioning the pacing of the OT movies, this statement above perfectly sums up what I meant.

imperialscum said:

DominicCobb said:

Yes, it could have been worse. But it also could have been MUCH better.

Whether it could be better is completely subjective. I have been reading this thread and people usually don't even provide specific clues to what would make it batter in their opinion. Of those who did, the things I could agree on is to put less screen time on Ewoks and more on space battle, and having Ford and Fisher make better performances. As for the rest of the film I just don't see any room for improvements.

The biggest problem with ROTJ is the writing/editing and how the movie just drags at times. 

-The Jabba Sequence goes on WAY too long, and is frankly pretty boring.  There are so many ways they could have went about this, possibly having them inflitrate Jabba's Palace the same way they did in the Death Star where there is actually some action.  The whole sequence is the droids show up, Leia shows up with Chewy, and then Luke shows up, AND then there is some action.  And Leia just saves Han while Jabba and his buddies are sitting behind a curtain???  Why would he let his beautiful prize be freed from Carbonite that easy???

-It's not the Ewoks that bother me so much, its just another part of the movie that just drags, as it seems like Lucas was going through the motions writing this movie trying to get to 2 hours. 

There is alot wrong with the ROTJ as the movie just hasn't aged well.  The only reason it is in my collection is because SW & ESB are such great movies, it completes the trilogy.  Now don't get me wrong, there are some great parts in the movie, but there are some bad parts too that make the movie completely drag at times, and that NEVER happened in SW & ESB.  Those movie were edited perfectly. 

Tyrphanax said:

Bingowings said:

Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).

The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.

The best way to watch SW movies is never look at the previous movies, and you can forgive the flaws in plot holes. 

The great thing about growing up (before the days of VCR/DVD) was that the movies would come on Cable and you would watch them individually and not think of the other movies.  I watched SW on HBO a zillion times in 1983, and finally ESB came to HBO in 1986 and I watched that a zillion times.  The same with Jedi, as  I believe that came to HBO in 1988. 

Even though we had a VCR, I never bought movies back then, and because of that I never thought of the SW Trilogy as 'one big story' when I was watching them.  You kind of watched them with a grain of salt ignoring the writing flaws. 

Once the PT came out, Lucas was so hellbent on fans watching the movies as one big story, in a particular order, and if you do that the plot holes stick out like a sore thumb.  Just watch the OT movies as individual movies (with the idea that they are a trilogy in the back of your mind) and you will enjoy them alot more. 

DominicCobb said:

Return of the King. And there are 11 guys named Oscar who can back me up on this one

Return of the King won the Best Oscar more for the accomplishment of the whole trilogy rather then this specific movie as many voters pointed out.  I remember reading in 2001, they would nominate each Lord of the Rings movie for Best Picture, but would only give them one Best Picture Oscar after the 3rd movie.

As for the Academy, their track record on Best Picture movies is laughable for many years.  Forrest Gump over Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption or even Quiz Show?  Dancing with Wolves over Goodfellas?  Shakespeare in Love over Saving Private Ryan?  Ordinary People over Raging Bull?  Chariots of Fire over Raiders of the Lost Ark?  Driving Miss Daisy over Glory, Field of Dreams, or Born on the 4th of July?   I could go on and on......

My motto on ROTJ:

-When you compare it to most 3rd movies of a franchise its pretty damn good. 

-When you compare it to Star Wars and Empire, and it is average at best.