Broom Kid

Mine too!

Isn’t ‘Art’ just some guy’s name…?

That doesn’t account for the idea that mattes have stabilized and gate weave has been eliminated, though. I think if they went to the trouble to accurately (and finally!) color correct all the lightsabers and re-do them while restoring for 4K, they probably (and finally!) erased all the garbage mattes and stabilized the image, too.

David: upthread I linked to someone screencapping Pablo’s tweets.

My nitpicky addition to these conversations: The 2011 blu-ray release isn’t a Special Edition. The only Special Edition came out in 1997. Everything else since then is just a version of Star Wars. It’s easier to simply delineate any version by year than it is to continue calling them all “Special Editions.”

At this point, the name is a complete misnomer. There’s nothing “special” about them - the only one that’s actually special is the 1997 one, because it got a theatrical re-release under that title.

DrDre said:

I think the entire concept of artistic expression as you define it is meaningless, because by that definition any form of expression is art, hence nothing is art. It’s like those schools, where a student can’t fail, and everyone gets a passing grade. Anyone calls themselves an artist these days, effectively putting themselves in the leagues of a Mozart, Beethoven, Leonardo DaVinci, Stanley Kubrick, Oscar Wilde, etc, etc. It’s preposterous in my view. Making a painting doesn’t automatically make you an artist in my book, just like being able to count to ten doesn’t make you a Math Professor.

Don’t know what else to say. The question isn’t Art or Not Art. it’s Good Art or Bad Art.

Beethoven and The Prodigy are both musical artists. Daniel Johnston and Mozart. The Chainsmokers and Vivaldi. Skrillex and Johnny Cash. The entire concept of artistic expression as I defined it is how it’s defined. That doesn’t make it meaningless. Art has meaning, even the crappiest art. And that’s where your argument about it being like a “crappy school where nobody can fail” falls apart, because being Crappy Art is BAD. Yes, you tried to express yourself via artistic intent, and you did it terribly. That’s not a good thing. You made bad art and it reflects poorly on you. “Being an artist” doesn’t shield you from having made crappy art. It didn’t protect Mapplethorpe. Or John Waters.

That’s honestly enough. Trying to levy the charge that The Force Awakens isn’t really art AT ALL just doesn’t make any sense, and is a pretty huge overreaction, as is the decision to try and disqualify its status AS art in response. It’s obviously art. It’s okay if you don’t like it and think that it’s bad. You don’t have to go as far as you do. It’s a massively unneccessary step to take in order to make the criticisms you’re making.

The idea that Transformers and Rembrandt have to occupy the same rarified air doesn’t really make any sense. I don’t know why you’d do that. That’s a restriction you’re placing on art’s possibilities, not an actual artistic restriction. Star Wars and Tartovsky’s Solaris probably shouldn’t be on the same shelf either. The Statue of Liberty and Mad Max Fury Road don’t really go together. They’re both legitimate forms of artistic expression, though. Low art is still art. And people can make bad low art, but that doesn’t mean it’s not art. There’s no point in trying to disqualify it as art before you criticize it. You can just criticize it for what it is: Bad art.

I still have my faintest of faint “recreated Original Versions as a bonus feature on the box set” hopes holding on.

Essentially - a Disney-created “despecialized edition.”

It’s been confirmed that these are the 4K restorations done by Reliance in 2012, before Lucas sold the company, intended to be the base from which a 3D re-release series would be created.

Entirely new 4K scan & color grade. NOT the blu-rays from 2011 as previously reported.

I’m really curious how big a help these UHD versions are going to be for fan-restoration purposes next year.

Re: Joefavs’ “internal consistency” note - I’ve also heard that a lot of the background plates & matte paintings have been “locked down” so to speak? They didn’t replace them, obviously, but they definitely tried to make sure they blend better? They’re stabilized at the very least?

**edit

Looks like Lucasfilm employees on twitter have confirmed these are the Reliance 4K restorations from 2012, overseen by Lucas and created for the unfinished 3D re-release plan.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJLzABdXkAAoLQA.jpg

I’m simply arguing, that I don’t agree with the idea of the designation art being automatically attached to a movie like a toy in a box of cereal, simply because people put effort into it.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier. It’s more than enough to call something bad art. Loads of bad art exists. But there’s no real point in trying to disqualify bad art AS art simply because you don’t like it. That’s just being unfair and irrational. Manos: The Hands of Fate is a work of art. It’s a work of exceedingly, shockingly POOR art, but it’s an artistic expression. I understand the inclination to hyperbolically try and strip it of its legitimacy if you dislike it, i.e. every person who has ever looked at a Jackson Pollock and said “this isn’t art my 3 year old can do this hahaha” but that’s not how art (or the Force) works.

Art’s very definition isn’t like prizes at the bottom of a crackerjack box at all. And you don’t need to go so far as to attempt re-defining art (and the nature of artistic expression) simply because a movie didn’t work on you the way you’d hoped it would.

Further: The notion of “originality” being a key aspect of artistic validity is vastly overrated. Sure, it’s wonderful when it’s present, and I appreciate its presence quite a bit, especially when the execution is realizing the potential of the newness. But the definition of “art” isn’t reserved only for “new” things, and honestly, I’d go so far as to say “originality” as people try to describe it (i.e. “something nobody’s ever seen or tried before”) is not only limiting, but a hugely unrealistic expectation to hold over any work of art as a baseline. The large preponderance of art - not just film, or television, but book, painting, music, etc. is mostly unoriginal by those criteria - and that includes Star Wars, which is mostly pastiche of pre-existing art. You could argue the pastiche is “new” but even then I don’t think that argument holds, and the most strikingly “original” aspect of it was almost entirely technical in nature. The tech was advanced to serve the art - but the art itself wasn’t really “original.”

Nor does it need to be. It’s just another example of retroactively boxing in artistic expression in order to redefine other works in relation to it, and find those other works to be wanting. It’s not very generous, and isn’t doing any favors to art, or to the movies you love.

You don’t have to disqualify something from being art in order to dislike it. You can just dislike it. Intensely even. But it’s still art. Just bad art.

FWIW: only the 1997 Special Edition is actually a “special edition”

Everything else is just a new alteration. It’s honestly way more accurate and understandable to delineate by year of release (04, 06, 11, and now 19) than it is to just say “SE”

Also, considering what they’ve upped to Disney+, I think it’s a good bet these versions will be issued on 4K UHD next year, and that’s probably when people are going to get to really dig into how it looks, because I would imagine even for households with fine enough internet to pull down a real 4K file, the compression on Disney’s side is going to be considerable enough to make trying to do accurate side-by-side comparisons pretty difficult.

edit: LOL, Dre JUST said the same thing one post up. I should just stop.

edit: LOL, for some reason the forum zipped me past a whole page of conversation where I thought I was getting in way earlier in the discussion than I actually did. Apologies.

Wow, so are these the 4K restorations Reliance did then? The color grading is improved (thank the maker) but Greedo is still Greedo-ing.

What in the worlllld

I think that maybe the 4K restorations by Reliance are what got uploaded to Disney+

What makes me think that?

Because the Greedo scene has a NEW CHANGE in it.

Darth Lucas said:

You’re really misunderstanding me Broom Kid. I was never insinuating that Fox had a say in what version was released. Only that they, being the distributors, would get a large percentage of any profits made from ANY home video release.

No, I understood you on that point. I’m saying that’s incorrect. Fox doesn’t (or didn’t) get a large percentage of profits from their distribution deal. Yes, they got some of the money. But they didn’t get most of it. I BELIEVE they got less than a quarter of it? Might be even closer to 15%, I think. But I’m not remembering where I heard that now.

But when Lucas had Fox over a barrel while negotiating the Prequel Trilogy distribution rights, I think he not only got ownership rights back, but a very, very good profit split on re-releases and home video releases.

Also, the most recent release of the blu-rays (the first post Fox acquisition) is a stock-clearing exercise of old Fox product. The Fancy new product is rumored to hit NEXT year - and that’s the set that I am, for the first time in a long time, letting myself hope for the originals as a bonus feature.

You know, I never really thought of it that way, but Lucas sewing up the love triangle by making Leia “the other” in Return of the Jedi, and turning it into a big bloodline thing, it really kinda screws up the conversation in Empire Strikes Back.

Luke is hellbent on leaving because he saw a vision where Han and Leia die if he doesn’t intervene.
Ben says “you don’t know that to be true because even Yoda couldn’t see it.”
But Yoda basically says “Well, look, even if you DO go and save them, it’ll ruin everything. So you can’t go.”
So Luke leaves because he’s Luke and he can’t not. And Yoda says “there is another.”

But if Yoda knows the other is Leia, and Leia is the one that is going to die if Luke doesn’t get there to help her, why is he so nonchalant about her not being saved? At best, he’s saying “eh… she’ll figure it out. Probably. Maybe.” and at worst he’s saying “We don’t need our all-important backup plan if you just stay here and let her die.”

Well then I extend my apology to you too. And anyone else who took offense.

Yeah, I think I confused things, apologies. I was reading the fix-list, and it seemed like the “Bring my shuttle” line had been cut out entirely when I read it, leaving Vader’s exit of Cloud City to be just those shots of his shuttle approaching the executor.

That’s when I asked my question about why you’d cut his exit entirely instead of just leaving “Bring my Shuttle.” But you didn’t - Bring My Shuttle IS there in your custom special edition, now that I actually, you know, CHECK the video, LOL.

Apologies again.

But before the SE version, you didn’t know where his shuttle actually WAS. It was only until the SE that they chose to extend that scene and make it look like he was walking directly to it while he was talking.

But I get the reasoning! Thanks for responding.

Quick question I have re: the Empire Strikes Back Custom Special Edition: Is there a reason why Vader leaving Cloud City was cut entirely as opposed to simply restoring the “Bring my shuttle” line and music? I searched the thread but if the answer was there I must have missed it, apologies for my mistake.

The work done on the A New Hope hyperspace VFX is flat-out amazing.

I don’t think I’m being disrespectful to anybody at all, but I apologize for coming off that way to you.

But I’m very certain the Original Versions is a niche consumer product now, precisely because none of this is secret. Lucasfilm doesn’t have to do any market research, we’re all out here in the open and they can count us all very easily. We’re not going to make them that much money. That’s not to say it won’t be ANY money coming in. Obviously we represent a dollar amount to them. But The Original Versions is, at best, a bonus feature on a larger release. I’m fine with that, too! I don’t care if we’re a bonus feature so long as we get on an officially released product. It doesn’t hurt my pride or anything.

(as an aside: The boards were shut down because they weren’t needed anymore. They were low-traffic, and their own social media presence essentially made hosting forums pointless, especially for as much problems as they caused for the volunteer moderators (and paid administrators) who had to monitor it. It wasn’t done as a preventative measure for the blu-ray release)

To be clear: I want them to be released. I think they’ll eventually be released. I look forward to buying them when they are released. I’m endlessly appreciative of people who have filled in the hole in that market, both here and in other places, and provided this niche something to enjoy in the meantime, at quality levels nobody could have dreamed of back when this specific thread was first started.

But we’re a niche audience. Niches can still be served and served well. Being a niche audience isn’t an insult, either. But there’s not a lot of money here. If there WAS, there’d probably be a lot more pressure internally to get these versions out there. But there isn’t. We’re a small (but noisy) audience that has, in the meantime, taken care of ourselves. That’s not a criticism or a derogatory. Just because our purchasing power isn’t that strong compared to the general audience’s doesn’t mean we don’t matter, or that our desires are lesser. It’s not a personal judgment on our character or anything. It just is what it is. There’s a small group of fans who really want these versions, and a much, much larger group of fans that doesn’t really care if they’re there or not.

We’re not competing against each other. And we don’t “win” because we make Lucasfilm a lot of money. We “win” because we get to watch the movies we want to watch on the format we prefer to watch them in. Hopefully. Eventually.

Darth Lucas said:

The acquisition of Fox absolutely makes a difference. It wasn’t released before because Lucas was in charge and didn’t want to.

The acquisition of Fox made no difference at all, because Fox’s distribution deal had nothing to do with Lucas’ unwillingness to release it (although he DID release it while Fox was still distributing the films). Fox never had a say in what version of the films would be released, and there was no reason for them to get in the way of whatever version was released, because it was all the same to them.

Releasing any restoration would be an enormous money maker, and Fox owning distribution rights means that Disney would only get a small percentage of those potential profits.

You’re vastly overestimating how much of a financial draw “The original versions” would be. The audience for “the original versions” is very niche. This sucks (especially since I’m part of that niche and would love the opportunity to spend my money on it) but further - Fox owning distribution rights didn’t mean Disney only got a small percentage. You’ve got that reversed. The smaller percentage was actually Fox’s, and Fox didn’t mind having those distribution rights because even a small percentage of Star Wars money is nice, especially when you don’t have to do much work to get them.

Disney isn’t releasing the original versions (or hasn’t since they took ownership) primarily because they just don’t want to. It’s a sign of respect to Lucas. It’s basically been confirmed, multiple times now, that they’re not putting an “original versions” release out because they don’t want to do it if Lucas isn’t cool with it. It’s not a contractual thing, it’s not a money thing. It’s just that they consider the 2011 blu-ray versions the “canon” versions and they’re moving on from there.

That doesn’t mean the originals won’t be released ever, most likely as an “alternate version” as a bonus feature. It just means they want to make sure Lucas is cool with them doing it first. Maybe he is now (I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s in full “screw it” mode currently) maybe he won’t be until later. Maybe he never will be while he’s still around. But the originals not being released has never had anything to do with who owned the distribution rights.

Likewise, Dom.

It hasn’t disappeared from the collective conscious at all. This site is part of that, but even if this site had never sprung up in the wake of Lucas (not a corporation, but a specific man) refusing to release the original versions on home video (and then releasing them again anyway, only to not release them again, only to later give the okay to the screening of a 70mm print at the Academy) the original versions wouldn’t have disappeared from the collective conscious, if only because it was literally too successful for it to have done so. The idea that Star Wars could suffer from cultural erasure of any kind is pretty far-fetched considering how huge its pop-cultural footprint is, was, and will continue to be for some time.

Film history isn’t being ignored. Our desires to be able to purchase an original version of the movie is being thwarted, and has done so for a long time now - and it most definitely sucks, and I don’t like it. But there is most definitely a difference between film preservation, and film restoration, and being able to buy a blu-ray on Amazon. What we’re upset about is a consumerist concern, not a preservationist one.