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Broom Kid

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3-Sep-2019
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Post
#1312789
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Imagine being Adam Driver, knowing that back in your trailer you have the scripts to “Marriage Story” and “The Report” just sitting there, waiting to be memorized and performed, and that’s the day you have to do a scene where “You’re a Palpatine” has to come out of your mouth.

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but Kylo Ren’s last words are “Ow.”

Post
#1312753
Topic
JJ's style and shaky cam in TFA and TROS
Time

I think a large part of being a Star Wars fan for a large section of its fandom is in the exercise that goes along with classifying, quantifying, and for lack of a better word, TRADITIONALIZING what Star Wars is and can be. Whether that’s a conscious decision or not, it’s what a ton of people have been doing for a very long time, and I think this (kind of odd) discussion about the directorial style of JJ Abrams and “Star Wars” is interesting, in that it seeks to nail down an almost immovable visual vocabulary for Star Wars - without recognizing that the primary reason Star Wars’ approach to classic mythology resonated to young people was partially because Lucas’ visual style hadn’t ever been applied to the myth like that.

Star Wars worked in the first place because that’s not how you were supposed to shoot fantasy and myth. It wasn’t supposed to look, move, or sound like that. And it’s because it didn’t that young people were more easily able to key into the universal (and ancient) themes and meanings in its mythology.

I think part of why The Force Awakens worked so well for a lot of people is because it freshened up Star Wars’ visual language on a larger scale than it had been over the 30 years prior. And that language was always evolving and changing anyway. Empire doesn’t look like Star Wars very much at all, and it certainly doesn’t move the same way. And Jedi has its own visual language.

A lot of the “rules” about what Star Wars is and how it can look like literally don’t exist anywhere but in our heads, codified and quantified through group discussions among people who don’t have any actual control over what Star Wars is or what it looks like. Snap-zooms (and hand-held photography!) didn’t exist in Star Wars until Attack of the Clones. Slow motion didn’t exist in Star Wars until Empire Strikes Back. Dream Sequences didn’t exist until Revenge of the Sith.

If the myth (whatever shape it might take) is to survive with modern audiences, the visual language of its telling needs to shift accordingly. Star Wars itself taught us this. To argue that Star Wars itself can’t continue along that path because it’s not “Star Wars” once you do that is self-defeating.

You have to let this thing grow otherwise it becomes stale. And if that means hand-held photography and whip-pans, so be it. Just use them well, is all.

Post
#1312748
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

“People didn’t reject TLJ because their emotional maturity wasn’t up to the task”

Some people obviously did though. The idea that NOBODY did that doesn’t make any sense. It’s an overstatement you’re making in response to an overstatement he’s making to arrive at one of his bigger points (which I find lucid and relevant). It’s not total nonsense to suggest people didn’t understand the Last Jedi, especially not in the face of two years of people very loudly not understanding it in front of as many people as possible.

There’s no point in attempting to reject observable reality simply because it doesn’t align with your personal viewpoint. You’re not the people he’s talking about, and that’s fine. You don’t need to then try and further argue that the people he’s talking about don’t, and have never, existed. They did, and they still do. You aren’t among their number, and don’t need to count yourself among them for your opinions to have validity.

I don’t take your arguments against the review as an attack at all, but I do think trying to erase the group of people he’s talking about doesn’t help anything.

Further - I don’t think there’s anything really sanctimonious about the tone of the review at all because he’s also describing how he understands, and sometimes indulges, in the headspace he’s also criticizing. He’s saying that he’s been there, and he still visits semi-frequently, but it’s because he knows of what he speaks that he’s able (and willing) to make the criticisms he’s making.

Post
#1312726
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I posted what I think is my favorite review of this movie earlier, but its author tweeted something that is very relevant to the discussion.

https://twitter.com/mangiotto/status/1207423051404431360

"The thing about giving fans what they want is it holds a mirror up to the sad limits of a fan’s imagination. Not just for possible paths to evolve their objects of veneration, but for their own potential growth as human beings. “Look! Look! This is all you think you deserve.”

That’s an effective description of the creative impulse behind this movie. It really is.

(that review, again, if you missed it: https://www.filmfreakcentral.net/ffc/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker.html)

Post
#1312719
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker box office results: predictions and expectations
Time

A B+ CinemaScore for a giant blockbuster on its opening weekend isn’t great, no. Again, the scheduling might save it from a severe drop, but the comparison points I’m seeing used quite a bit aren’t great ones: Batman v. Superman, Justice League, and Venom.

Venom is a positive comparison, really. But the problem there is Venom broke out the way it did thanks to overseas numbers, and so far The Rise of Skywalker isn’t doing very well overseas, and won’t have the sort of domestic/international split that Venom had. Star Wars even at its MOST popular was always closer to a 50/50 split than most huge earners (which run between 40/60-30/70 in a lot of cases)

If this opens at 195 and has TLJ’s multiplier, it ends its run at $546 mil domestic. But that CinemaScore (and whatever media narrative might evolve between now and Christmas) makes a 2.8x run a little more of a question.

If it has a multiplier closer to Justice League’s, we’re looking at this movie just barely crossing $500 mil, and finishing under Rogue One domestically.

EDIT: 90mil Friday (including Thursday previews). If it matches either Last Jedi OR Force Awakens’ weekend arcs - this movie isn’t making $200 mil OW.

Post
#1312718
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I think making “sense” of the movie is most easily done if you look at it from the POV that it’s still 2016. It’s a story that - again - isn’t really ABOUT anything, thematically, and isn’t really saying anything beyond “here is how our plot is closed out,” and the decisions made to close out that plot seem to be focused almost solely on answering every last fan-chewed “mystery” that was hashed out in the early months of 2016 before many of the principals started disengaging from the media entirely.

Seriously, it’s not so much getting mad at The Last Jedi, or going out of its way to retcon it. This movie is more or less pretending it didn’t happen, save for the Force Projecting. Everything else is basically a race to answer a checklist of the main questions (whether they were already addressed or not) posed by The Force Awakens as fans understood them in 2016:

“Who is Snoke and what is his backstory?”
“What is Rey’s parentage and how did she wind up there?”
“Why is Rey so strong in the force” (The “Mary Sue” complaint, basically)
“Do Rey and Kylo want to kiss?” (This became “Reylo” eventually)
“Is Finn Force sensitive?”
“Who are the Knights of Ren?”
“What was Luke doing for all that time?”

That’s literally all this film IS about. Answering those questions. But the answers to those questions don’t POINT anywhere thematic or even mythical. They’re just plot - pure plot - and that’s why this movie feels so empty, emotionally. And that emptiness is compounded by the fact the answers they arrived at (and then rushed through) depend on more or less ignoring a better film that answered some of these questions much more simply and effectively, and most importantly, THEMATICALLY.

Post
#1312471
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

But the “It undid ROTJ” arguments happened the second TFA hit, and were only more loudly repeated in the wake of TLJ. The Rise of Skywalker’s existence doesn’t change the underlying point I’m making. It makes the argument overall uglier and dumber, yes, but the content of the argument maintains its consistency. It’s an argument in which one side is upset that “happily ever after” wasn’t maintained - but the basic myth that Star Wars is built on never allowed for that anyway. Arthurian myth goes past the part where Excalibur is pulled from the stone, and deals with what happens past the point of initial triumph. The Sequel Trilogy is concerned with plumbing those parts of it and coming up with equivalents for our time, and delivering lessons for the youth living through a rise in global fascism in the 21st century despite the fact those youth’s grandparents and great grandparents bravely fought and died to defeat that fascism in its initial form in the past. That the Sequel Trilogy was pursuing that thematic goal doesn’t nullify the thematic drive of the Original Trilogy, nor does it cancel out the arcs that were built and completed in that story.

Or at least, it appeared to be pursuing that goal. It had the potential to do that. That potential was wasted in this last movie, unfortunately, because this movie isn’t really about anything at all. It’s about deleted scenes solving a plot puzzle created by a real-life death, and resurrecting a dead villain for the sake of adhering to the superficial (and already solved) mystery about the main character. Neither of those things are a theme, or have anything to do with theme, and that’s why the movie feels hollow and flat. There’s nothing it wants to say, and so it never says anything at all.

Post
#1312463
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I think the art of book got pushed back because having evidence in print of what this movie was supposed to be before it got dismembered and glued back together would have made its legs even weaker.

We’re going to find out in May what this thing was intended to be, and it might not be better, but the game of what-if that spins out of that is going to take over all discussion from that point forward.

Post
#1312456
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker box office results: predictions and expectations
Time

If WOM gets bad after this OW, having the most advantageous release date (and they do) won’t matter much if the legs are affected. They need repeat views and I’m unsure they’re going to get them. Nobody making any predictions was likely predicting with the idea that this was going to be the worst reviewed Star Wars since The Phantom Menace - and considering Phantom Menace’s current score got adjusted downward thanks to the 3D re-release giving critics a second bite at the apple, this would technically BE the worst reviewed Star Wars film otherwise.

Post
#1312452
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

“Rey, I have to tell you something!”
“What were you going to tell me?”
“I’ll tell you later”
“Hey, what were you going to tell Rey”
“I’m not going to tell you, I’m going to tell her.”
“Oh no, I felt Rey die. I didn’t get to tell her!”
“OH LOOK, REY IS ALIVE. ISN’T THAT NICE. GUESS I’LL NEVER TELL HER WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY THAT WAS LITERALLY SO IMPORTANT IT’S BASICALLY THE ONLY PLOT THREAD I HAVE IN THIS MOVIE”

Canto Bight reads like Upton Sinclair compared to that.

Post
#1312428
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

There are a ton of characters in this who are basically props.

Rose
Jannah
The guy from LOST who’s character name I don’t even remember
Klaud (LOL)
Leia (she is literally a prop for the last half hour of the movie)
The Knights of Ren

Also, why is there a vat of Snokes on Exegol. How many Snokes do you need laying around. What’s the point of that.

Post
#1312419
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I don’t agree it undoes ROTJ’s conclusions any more than the onward march of time “undoes” the actions (and the meaning behind the actions) of the people who fought (and died) for things in the past.

The endpoint of that line of thought suggests death makes life meaningless because once you die you lose, and once you lose, nothing you did matters. Which is kind of nihilistic at its core, and Star Wars has never been that. The story shouldn’t be ABOUT the story, it should be HOW it’s about it - if that makes sense. “Well, peace in our time only lasted 30 years so that 30 years was meaningless” is kind of a harsh, unfair, and cynical read that kind of minimizes the good that 30 years of peace can be.

I think the first two parts of this trilogy were kind of smart about how they were approaching a new conflict born of an old one, and investigating how and why new characters were handling those pressures, and what they were doing in response to them (and more importantly, why they were responding the way they were). There’s a lot that’s worth investigating in there, and a lot of that can (and should) speak to the times we’re living through now, for obvious reasons. That’s what myth does, it provides young people a means to make sense of the upheavals going on around them. That’s not so easily “nullified” by bad plotting, I don’t believe.

But The Rise of Skywalker is, unfortunately, thematically hollow, and THAT is a very big problem. It’s not really saying anything, and it’s not putting any effort into saying that nothing, either. It’s structural problems aside, the many problems with it as a movie - thematically it’s just a void, really. It’s good at saying what it doesn’t want to be, because it seems to have an idea of what people DON’T want, but it doesn’t have any sort of sense of what to provide as an alternative. So you’re left with a movie that is solely plot, for plot’s sake, wrapping up on a plot-level and nothing else.

THAT feels meaningless to me.

The idea that this movie could have been about a First Order fighting itself, and a Resistance taking advantage of that… there’s a larger thematic potential there that’s HUGE and relevant. You can easily build from “Knowledge and defense, never attack” and “Don’t fight what you hate, but save what you love” and elaborate from there in a story where the resistance finds a way to use the First Order’s nihilism against itself. That can MEAN something useful that ties into the thematic thrust of prior films, and Star Wars in general.

But instead the concerns were primarily “how do we fit deleted scenes in here and make a character out of that” and “How can we get the Emperor back in here so the parentage angle I don’t want to abandon takes center stage.” Those are plot concerns, not STORYTELLING ones, and the ultimate failing of The Rise of Skywalker is that its architects were more concerned about making their bad ideas fit into a plot no matter what than they were with trying to figure out how to actually SAY SOMETHING about… ANYTHING.

Post
#1312384
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

That’s what makes this decision to pursue the Emperor as the end goal (especially as it was executed) and to keep Leia in the story as the catalyst for Kylo’s turn so WEIRD. Just on its face that’s such a tiny eyehole to thread on a moving needle. Not saying you couldn’t do it - and maybe there’s a version of this story where they managed to build to that idea well, and maybe they actually tried to make Leia a legitimate character whose disassociated presence was actually felt. But both those decisions are SO deck-stacked against their successful execution I just don’t understand why they got pursued considering they knew how much time they had left to make and finish this thing.

They didn’t HAVE to choose this course of action.

I disagree that any of these movies have rendered any of the other films pointless, if only because the point of Star Wars has never really been in its plotting. The plotting is a means to get to the themes, and even the bad Star Wars movies are trying to say something, thematically, within their own runtimes. Sequels don’t nullify or make pointless their predecessors. But I think what this movie was trying to say for itself was so confused and honestly, kind of infantile - it’s just hard to get a good hold on what it wants to be AS a story.

Post
#1312255
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker box office results: predictions and expectations
Time

Haha, either way I’m going to be wrong (being wrong on the internet never hurts anywhere near as bad as people seem to think it will. I’ve gotten a TON of practice anyway, LOL).

Because according to Deadline - this is doing Thursday preview numbers similar to The Last Jedi.
https://deadline.com/2019/12/star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-opening-weekend-box-office-cats-bombshell-1202814594/

Post
#1312247
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread
Time

It’s gotta be, but the flat-out refusal to consider an option where she’s not in the movie just… I know retrospect makes geniuses out of the biggest dummies (hi there!) but she shouldn’t have been in this movie. The idea shouldn’t have been pursued, and that maybe would have freed them up to pursue different storytelling avenues.

I also was resistant to the idea that Abrams was actively going out of his way to “retcon” what Johnson did but there are actually two or three moments on the level of “This will begin to make things right” where it’s beyond obvious Abrams is breaking the fourth wall to comment on what came before. The most notable is Luke solemnly talking about “disrespecting” the weapon of a Jedi. And if that was meant to be a self-deprecating joke at Luke’s expense, (like a ha-ha smartass “remember when I did that? LOL what a dummy I was” sort of thing) it wasn’t acted, shot, or cut like that at all, so that interpretation is almost impossible to make. Luke (whose hair was trash! Why did it LOOK like that?) was essentially a platitude machine. The only part of that whole scene that works? The part of the scene that is riffing on the infinitely better scene from Empire Strikes Back.

Again, I know Abrams isn’t the most graceful director, but there is so much that is structurally FUCKED about this movie and its characterization and arcs that I have a hard time believing this was actually what he wanted to make. Just going from TFA to this, it’s such a MESS comparatively - I believe PARTS of what he actually wanted to make are IN here, but they’re stitched and glued together very, very sloppily.