Broom Kid

Streaming has become so mainstream and prioritized that for many people, the option to watch, much less own, physical discs isn’t even really an option to them. The idea that there’s a big enough number of people who would buy physical releases of the show instead of streaming them doesn’t seem realistic to me, I agree. They wouldn’t lose money if they issued this series on blu-ray or 4K UHD.

For better or worse (largely worse if you care about things like picture quality) the mainstream audience considers streaming to be the primary home video format now, and prefer to watch their shows via the internet. The discs wouldn’t be competition with that. They’d be a very cool secondary income stream for the property though, and they should exploit that.

He also kept his Jedi robes. And when he went to go burn the tree - he couldn’t burn it. Yoda had to do it for him. Luke didn’t really want the Jedi to end, (“I will not be the last Jedi” are some of the last words he ever speaks") and he couldn’t make himself do it. That he kept Leia’s lightsaber as a memento isn’t a “plot hole” because it doesn’t undo or mess up anything from a plotting perspective, much less a thematic or character one. It’s absolutely in keeping with the Luke from The Last Jedi. Luke was being dishonest to both himself and Rey about why he was really on that island, and it wasn’t some big noble aspiration. He was depressed and scared and ashamed.

I didn’t ignore what you said concerning the fire range - the movie also establishes that the First Order probably could have, at any point, jumped ahead and just wiped them out, but Hux instead chose to just follow behind and essentially torture them instead of just getting it over with. He’s being sadistic and awful and enjoying it instead of putting in the work.

Which is ALSO a thematic element that keeps getting referenced and paid off later in the movie - the villains’ hubris and arrogance gets them ruined. Had Hux been as ruthless as he pretends he is, the movie would have ended after 30 minutes. Had Snoke been paying attention instead of feeling himself, he wouldn’t have gotten bisected. If Kylo had been paying attention instead of raging out on Crait, he would have figured out what was really going on before it was too late.

Here’s a larger point that I’m trying to make - aside from the fact these “plot holes” aren’t really plot holes at all, if your deconstruction of the story is being done solely to point out how there are ways to effectively end the story after 30 minutes because the bad guys “could have” done something else that they didn’t do and it would wipe out the good guys, then you’re not really worried about the story or the plot-holes, you’re basically trying to invalidate the movie, period. That’s not fixing a story, that’s anti-storytelling. That’s suggesting that our heroes need to be so pigeonholed BY the plot that the course of action they take is the only possible course of action they COULD take. That’s video-game routing, not large-scale movie storytelling. What’s the end goal of this criticism, and what is it that it’s saying about the story and the characters and the themes and ideas they represent?

The rate of cannon fire and the distance on that cannon fire isn’t important enough to invalidate whole themes and arcs, and suggesting the story needs to work that way in order to be successful doesn’t make any sense to me. Especially not in the face of how clearly the film DOES communicate all its ideas and details as they’re happening.

We’re not talking technicalities at all, though. Nothing I mentioned is a “technicality.”

And that “technicality” you are trying to mention in regards to a plot hole that isn’t, doesn’t address or even begin to engage with any of the larger thematic or character questions I brought up, either.

Poe basically led a charge, against orders, based on his own personal feeling, to destroy a big weapon that could be used against the Resistance, that got a bunch of valuable resources (and even more importantly, human lives) eradicated for little gain, and that gain was even more solidly dwarfed by the fact his “positive” outcome ended up not mattering because the second they dropped out of lightspeed a bigger, more deadly, more threatening ship greeted them. The dreadnought doesn’t matter in comparison to Snoke himself being on the scene - and that scenario gets paralleled at the end of the film on Crait to highlight the futility of pursuing that sort of “heroic” action without paying attention to what it really means in the larger scheme.

Again, that’s not a plot-hole. And where does “fixing” that “plot hole” even leave you in the context of that story and what it’s doing?

But nobody’s going to do that because their perspective is so minimized that “chilling” and busying themselves with almost anything else isn’t an option. So much of who they are and what they see themselves AS is wrapped up in… that.

So they can’t “chill” because there’s nothing in it for them (or at least they don’t see that yet, if they ever will).

The only exit is exhaustion, really. Eventually you gotta hope people get tired enough and through attrition, they just quit. And then it’s a question of whether or not we keep paying attention to that churn.

That’s not a plothole, and it doesn’t really have anything to do with the point I’m making regarding Finn’s suicide run.

Poe was reckless, and did endanger the fleet. Again, this is very clearly shown to us through visuals and dialog. He also reduced the number of threats that followed them through hyperspace, yes - but considering Snoke’s flagship showed up anyway, (a giant ship that literally dwarfed the dreadnought, and brought its own set of Star Destroyers with it) the idea that losing all those pilots and ships to destroy the one dreadnought was “worth it” in the way Poe thought it was is very clearly shown by the film to be not true.

But again: What happens to the story if that “plot hole” is patched up? What is that saying in the context of the larger story, and where is it pointing? If you’re “fixing” stuff without keeping any of that in mind, what are you actually “fixing?”

Poe’s arc is started by Paige’s sacrifice, and how that sacrifice wasn’t quite in vain, but was definitely unneccessary in the larger scheme. Having Poe be in charge of a similar situation on Crait, and recognizing his mistake this time, goes a long way towards resolving that arc later in the cave when Finn is, emotionally and character-wise, where Poe was.

And that’s how you wind up with Finn wanting to make Paige’s sacrifice, but this time even less effectively, with even more on the line, and being stopped by Paige’s sister from doing that so that both Finn and Poe can complete their character arcs in this story. That’s not a plot-hole.

OutboundFlight said:

Since when are Reylos racist? Apparently I’ve been misinformed because I always assumed they were pro-Disney.

assumptions != information, though, haha. (Also, not sure how the opposite of Racism is Disney. That doesn’t make any sense)

Again: Not all “Reylos” are racist. Not all “______________” are ever just one thing. It’s why phrases like “Not all men” became comedy cliches, because everyone understands “Not all ___________” is a truism - but that’s also not the point, because in many cases nobody’s really trying to say “all ____________ are ______” in a serious, thoughtful discussion.

But some Reylos, in defending their headcanon (a big problem with Reylo has always been their weird insistence on their headcanon being validated as actual canon, as if that would somehow make their ship better instead of lamer and less fun - which is exactly what happened) accidentally displayed and even promoted racist thoughts and POVs, specifically when it came to the ways they’d disqualify the possibilities that Rey might couple with either Finn or Poe.

Anyway, it’s just another branch on the very tribalistic and angry tree that is modern online fandom, the same rules more or less apply: Groups of people who have chosen to substitute their personalities with their fandom behave nonsensically and irrationally with each other, because the point of their presence in the fandom isn’t to like things, it’s to get mad at other people for not liking things the way they want them to. So some Reylos accidentally showed their racism, and some “anti-Reylos” made a meal out of that. Were some of those “antis” unfair and opportunistic and bad faith about it? Of course they were. Not many of the people involved are honestly trying to “do the right thing” they’re just trying to feel self-righteous and justified for a small moment in an otherwise unremarkable and substance-free day. So if they can get that “win” at the expense of a total stranger on the internet, they’re going to do it.

There’s already a ton of lines, plus the music, plus the editing, plus the visual information, that show the audience that his run isn’t going to work.

The movie is also asking you to remember what a “successful” suicide run would look like - i.e. the beginning of the movie, where Rose’s sister died helping destroy the dreadnought, but that destruction didn’t actually help the resistance, and in fact hurt it immensely. A lot of the same visual and audio cues are there in Finn’s run, and the movie is hoping you’ll remember that, and remember that it ended up being a bad idea, poorly executed, that wasn’t worth the cost.

So you’ve got:

Poe saying they need to get to the cannon
Poe saying it won’t work once the cannon is charged
The AT-AT’s killing everything on the way to the cannon.
The cannon visibly being charged
Finn angrily waving everyone off for the sake of not letting them win (despite the fact they’re going to win even if he does blow up the cannon)
Poe saying the cannon is charged and it’s not going to work
Rose saying it’s not going to work
The ship, which was introduced as being a rattletrap hunk of trash, literally melting and falling apart the closer it gets
The rapid cutting showing how quickly it’s melting the closer it gets.
The music rising and getting more desperate/despairing the closer he gets.

here’s another question - since most of the criticism is coming from an “In the moment” POV, what do you think happens AFTER this scene, where Finn kills himself flying his speeder into the cannon - or the ship fails out and just smashes into the front of it, or goes in and explodes, and now the front of the cannon is blackened/charred but still spinning, or the cannon actually explodes and takes out a couple AT-AT’s on either side but there are still a bunch of walkers and Kylo’s ship (a larger version of which we just saw with the Holdo maneuver) - and the ability to call for reinforcements to just bring another one of those things down and continue the siege: What’s the story after this point? What is happening after the momentary “Yes, Finn is the suicidal hero like Paige was” that is adding to the overarching themes of the story? Why, after seeing two not particularly successful suicide missions complete themselves already in this movie, would the third time be the charm especially considering the tons of evidence being spoken/shown/heard that it 100% wouldn’t work and would be easily the least successful suicide mission of the film, and how would it’s hypothetical “working” make this movie’s aims and thematic strengths stronger than if Finn is stopped?

That scene isn’t happening in a vaccuum, and I don’t know how much more clear the movie needs to be about communicating the futility of Finn’s intent. The scene only works because of it’s obviously tragic nature: He’s going to kill himself, it’s not going to matter, and it’s a damn shame. You empathize with him, you understand why he’s doing it, but you know it’s doomed to fail. Nothing in the sequence there is suggesting his potential success (which isn’t even really a potential outcome at all) will benefit anyone.

I understand why they postponed the release of the Art book (probably to tie-in better to the big blu-ray/4k/home video launch of the movie) but at this point I feel like they should just ship it now. I’m not even really going out of my way to find leaks and scans and I feel like I’ve already read it twice based on how prevalent the images are, haha.

I think it’s been determined the editing was done to remove the original theatrical footage from the doc and replace it with the current cuts? I believe that’s the case. Everything else seems to be exactly the same.

I think it’s definitely safe to say then, that what Burnett read on YouTube is 100% what Trevorrow was looking to make before that Jack Thorne draft came in, and then he left/got fired. If the only thing he’s commented on is that stuff in the art book isn’t referring to his drafts, and is no-commenting THE ACTUAL DRAFTS, especially considering how quick he was to deny credit for the Jack Thorne draft…

Episode IX: Duel of the Fates was almost the last chapter in the Skywalker Saga. Pretty crazy.

Speaking of YouTube - I almost checked out that MauLer guy, after seeing someone on another forum I visit link to a funny back and forth on his twitter and going “oh yeah, he’s a youtuber, the Original Trilogy guys seemed to vouch for him.” So I followed the link and looked at his profile and… He basically just stalks some other YouTuber called “MovieBob” and a critic named Patrick H. Willems. That seems to be the last two straight weeks of his twitter feed, at least. I scrolled down for awhile and he’s just making fun of “MovieBob’s” weight and Willems’ intelligence and screencapping tweets by a YouTuber named Jenny Nicholson, who I guess has already blocked him. I know I got called out earlier for “judging a book by its cover” but it really seems like he’s a pretty toxic media personality, to me. Nothing but personal attacks on other people and angry tweets about people not liking things the way he wants people to like them.

But I guess liking things and focusing on the things you like don’t get your Patreon numbers where they need to be…

Looks like the next investor call is February 4th. It’s possible Iger mentions the box-set there. It’s also very possible he doesn’t, but the timing seems decent to mention to investors what their Rise of Skywalker home video plans are.

I saw that Anthony Breznican did his job and actually got in contact with principals and debunked the rumor, as opposed to the rest of “Film Twitter” which apparently just gossiped at each other in Direct Messages and posted .gifs all day.

Game on!

That’s not a Disney thing, really - that sort of thing almost never happens at any studio. And if it does, it only happens DECADES later.

Part of the reason “The Beginning” was so remarkable back in 2001 was because people DIDN’T do that for new movies. And Lucasfilm never really did it again, either. And “The Beginning” was still somewhat sanitized.

People love behind-the-scenes drama - but the people who have to still work in the industry once the drama is over don’t love it very much, and they don’t love having a salable version of it available at will for consumers to memorize, either. So those sorts of “warts ‘n’ all” documentaries and tell-alls are for later, when that effect diminished, and there’s a lot of distance accumulated.

it’s not a question of Disney trying to appear squeaky clean, it’s more that nobody wants their dirty laundry from work aired out like that.

No, he was specifically talking about the Rose/Leia stuff.

He gave the initial interview, and people got upset because he made it sound like Rose lost screentime because of Leia’s VFX work.

Then he gave the clarificaton, which didn’t actually make anyone less upset, because he basically said they didn’t even give her those scenes to shoot with “Leia” in the first place, they cut them at the script stage.

He walked that back by saying he meant what they wrote for those scenes was apparently too taxing for the VFX team to make real that they cut them before ever sending them over.

Keep an eye on Hollywood Reporter, Deadline, and Variety, definitely.

Film journalists on twitter (and a lot of them) all seem to be collectively hinting that this thing just got canceled.

yotsuya said:

Technically you are incorrect.

That’s the best kind of incorrect. The kind that counts but doesn’t really matter or have much to do with the point being made, haha.

idir_hh said:

They wanted a Hollywood reboot, hence JJ Abrams.

Star Wars has never not been Hollywood, though. They’ve always been major studio releases.

The notion that they were ever “independent” films in any way has always been back-patting exaggeration on Lucas’ part more than anything. They all went through the studios, they were made to appeal to all four quadrants, the budgets only ever got bigger and bigger… they’re the definition of Hollywood. The last movie Lucas made that was at all difficult or in any way “indie”… was the first movie he ever made. Everything after that was Hollywood as hell, and unapologetically so.

The big difference is that Hollywood got better at making his movies than he did. Which is what always happens. New sets of shoulders to stand on, and then the next guy stands on THOSE shoulders, so on and so on.

Plot isn’t a story in the same way a skeleton isn’t a soul.

I know why it’s goofy and dumb, I’m not arguing that it isn’t. I’m saying that the tides aren’t really one of those reasons. The tides aren’t going to shift what’s essentially a small city that fell out of the sky and embedded itself in the ocean floor. I hadn’t heard that particular complaint before, is all.

I’m sorry, I will just never agree with this. On a fundamental I believe it would be antithetical to the core heart of the series. I could say more but that is really what it comes down to.

“Always with you it cannot be done… you must UNLEARNNN”

Kylo being bad and staying that way isn’t antithetical to Star Wars at all, I don’t feel. The “core heart” of the series isn’t so inextricably tied up in redeeming its worst villains. In fact, it can be easily argued that pursuing that particular theme has led to 5 of its most disappointing entries.

I don’t think it’s unthinkable at all. And honestly, it’s a good thing for a movie to deal with, in these times specifically.

Also, honestly, “Star Wars’ bones” could do with some breaking and re-setting. The idea that the only path to hope and optimism in a Star Wars story lies in redeeming its villain seems really reductive and narrow, to me. That closes down so many storytelling possibilities that can still be hopeful and optimistic. The trick is not automatically deciding to center so much of your story’s weight and emotional drive on the bad guy at the expense of literally everyone else in the story.

It’s certainly not in Star Wars’ bones to do that. It didn’t happen in the first two films of the series, for example. The two that most people still tend to consider its best entries.

Telling a story about what you do when someone in your family doesn’t want to be saved and won’t let you help is just as powerful, meaningful, and useful to kids as teaching them to have the hope and optimism to try in the first place.

Not every attempt is going to be rewarded. And the lack of reward doesn’t mean everything that came before was in vain.

I still think that was a valid storytelling avenue. They could have gone down that path. If the only reason to close that path is basic dogma, I disagree with it. Star Wars is what it needs to be at the time it’s being made and coming out. It’s a reinterpretation of classic myths. It isn’t one in and of itself. It needs the freedom to riff and vary on different mythological aspects.

Kylo’s redemption shouldn’t have been a fait accompli in the writer’s room, and that it was is probably a big part of why the film is so unsatisfying.

Also, it never occurred to me that anyone would see the entire front half of the Death Star sunk into an ocean and think the tides would somehow be MOVING it. It’s not floating ON the water, and I can’t imagine the tides are so strong that it’s being pushed across the bottom of the sea floor, either.

The dagger is goofy and dumb, but to suggest it’s goofy and dumb because the Death Star would have moved in the meantime doesn’t really make any sense. It’s not like a lightweight piece of detritus. It’s the entire front half of a moon-sized battlestation. It’s not going anywhere because the tides are a little choppy.

I don’t know, I think “Kylo Ren is the big bad of the third movie” was just as valid a road to go down as “Kylo Ren gets redeemed” - keep in mind that the concrete notion of “Star Wars is a story of redemption” was more or less retconned into the meta-myth about its creation by a typically unreliable narrator (George Lucas) and the Prequel Trilogy only really exists to canonize that interpretation and sorta/kinda justify Anakin’s actions - which is not a great choice.

Considering Abrams’ predilections for hewing closest to the OT in terms of tone and storytelling notions - the idea of the story being ABOUT redemption doesn’t really track with what the OT story WAS about. Vader was redeemed (ish) in that trilogy, but the series wasn’t ABOUT his redemption. It was about Luke fulfilling his journey to become a Jedi and save the galaxy from tyrannical evil. Vader turning back to the light was more like his own reward for fulfilling that goal, not the overriding thrust of the story up to that point.

So insisting that Kylo Ren HAS to be redeemed because “that’s Star Wars” rings false, to me. Vader didn’t HAVE to be redeemed until somewhere about the halfway point of the last movie in the OT. And really, that option didn’t even exist until Lucas decided that the best possible cliffhanger to keep his trilogy viable would be to spring “I am your father” on the story out of nowhere, with no setup or prior lead-up to that moment in either movie to that point. Vader’s redemption was never the point, but that it still works is a testament to how good at their jobs everyone was at the time they were figuring out how to un-knot all these story elements for a happy ending.

But with Kylo - I feel like there are absolutely ways to tell a Star Wars story where the bad guy doesn’t get redeemed, where his tragic, misguided actions serve as an object lesson on what not to do and how not to be all by themselves, without the absolution of forgiveness and redemption layered over the top of them.

Granted, they didn’t take that route, and that’s fine. I wish they’d executed the redemption WAY better than they did - but I don’t agree that an ending where he’s the bad guy, and dies the bad guy, is fundamentally anti-Star Wars, or invalid on its face, either.