Broom Kid

Wanderer_ said:
The force isn’t a magical gift giving plot device,

But that’s exactly what it is. The Force does what it needs to do for the story to go where it needs to go. It only seems to make sense within a well-written story because the people executing it are better at hiding its magical gift-giving nature.

It’s literally a “mystical energy field” - it’s not a progression tree like a video game. If “training” does anything, it’s that it teaches you to stop doubting yourself and what you can do in the Force. But if you don’t doubt yourself and what you can do, the will of the Force works through you a lot more easily.

The “rules” of Star Wars are never as concrete as we love to think they are. They shift with every movie, for the sake of getting that film’s story executed correctly, and those stories are often pretty different from movie to movie, too.

(to clarify: This is not excusing any of the many problems I have with The Rise of Skywalker - it’s simply rebutting the idea that you have to be trained up in a specific way in order to “unlock” Force abilities. That’s a video game, not a movie, and video games are often not the greatest example of storytelling. Frequently, they’re almost the diametric opposite).

I really liked that Goransson never went to the Williams scores. I thought for sure he might have been saving a motif (probably the Force theme) for the final episode for maximum impact, but he never did. And I think that’s great.

I don’t think anyone needs to be angry or aggressive about any of this here. And since here is made up of other members, and its pretty obvious everyone here wants original versions made officially available for sale - there’s probably no real reason to be angry and aggressive with anyone else on that subject since we’ve all got that as common ground here.

Getting aggressive about “the situation” isn’t going to make anyone want them more than they already want them - which is a lot. It’s probably just going to make people want to want them somewhere else.

Oh, you know what I forgot as a pretty big disappointment?

That “The Emperor” was used exclusively. I wanted someone to say “Sheev” at some point. I almost expected it to come out of some Resistance member’s mouth and cause a moment of levity as people reacted to it.

“He Sheev now?”
“He Sheev now.”

It’s happened here. It happens here. There’s no reason to say it doesn’t. I’m not arguing with you, and I’m not upset - I just thought it looked like you misunderstood what he was actually saying in your eagerness to thump the podium a little more, and tried to clarify (which he agreed was the correct read).

“Maybe don’t be so angry/aggressive” isn’t a bad suggestion, is it?

Apologies for stepping on any toes. I’ll forgo adding any statistical updates to the thread.

The Last Jedi didn’t hit single digit millions until its 19th day of release (539mil total at that point)
The Rise of Skywalker got there on its 14th day. (417mil total at that point)

Honestly, Johnson could probably adapt some of the ideas he might have had for the Looper universe at that point: Widespread acknowledgement/acceptance of telekinetic powers was a key aspect of that movie’s worldbuilding. Repurposing some of that but making it The Force could be interesting. Imagine a Star Wars universe where “everyone can tap into the Force to some degree or another” isn’t just an idealized notion, but a reality within the fiction that simultaneously complicates and normalizes the energy force and makes it a little less mystic, but no less mysterious.

Thank you so much for linking that!

DominicCobb said:

Broom Kid said:

So is that the editor admitting that Kylo Ren’s was the primary character arc for not just this movie but the trilogy?

Where is she saying that? I kind of took it to mean not just Kylo but the Rey Palpatine thing.

I started to type out “or that Rey is ‘bad’ but because she had hope and kept an open mind she was ‘good’” but decided against it and deleted that, because that’s such a myopic/misguided read of her character I didn’t think that’s what they were referencing. Rey being descended of Palpatine doesn’t make her “bad” at her core/nature, especially since her parents were also not evil.

If the main point of the movie is 1-to-1 describing Kylo Ren’s character and arc it’s hard not to think that was the primary concern going into the project. What was said was :

Basically, the message of the film is, ‘Hey you know what? You can be bad and good can come into your life. And maybe if you’re open-minded to it, extraordinary things can change your mind. And you have to believe there’s always hope.’”

The message of the film is Kylo Ren’s arc. There’s not really any other way to parse that statement, because it doesn’t really track with anyone else. Certainly not Rey, because she was never “bad” and good didn’t come into her life, she was the good that came into everyone else’s.

So is that the editor admitting that Kylo Ren’s was the primary character arc for not just this movie but the trilogy?

Because that’s…

Seriously, the inability to look at the story through any other eyes but those is a big problem.

True, and that’s a good point. I misunderstood the reason you were making the Into Darkness comparison, apologies.

Paxis had multiple sources (as did Making Star Wars) - the fact that leaks happened (leaks always happen, they’ve been happening on big movies for about 20 years now) regarding the plot of TROS doesn’t somehow lend veracity to this “leak” which has one single source and is very, very specific about a lot of details, and as such is very specific on how it contradicts itself.

This work of fan-fiction even makes sure to answer why those leaks were happening, and the answer it gave (it was studio-approved sabotage) is also ridiculous.

The Rise of Skywalker leaked because Bad Robot productions apparently are pretty leaky (you can look back and see this to be the case) and it leaked through at least 5 or 6 people, if not more. This is all coming from one person, unverified, who is telling a story so wild and contradictory and specific that it’s almost impossible to take seriously. It has an answer for everything, and those answers only make sense in a vacuum, because once you start looking at them as a whole nothing holds together. The story’s coherence depends on its reader being propelled by the feeling they get from “seeing through the lies of the Jedi” if you will.

Ironically - the story is constructed like a JJ Abrams movie. You’re so distracted by the latest example of “WTF now THIS is happening” that you don’t stop to look at the greater whole and realize that none of these stories really connect with each other at all.

If he doesn’t know how anything at Disney (or WB, or Lucasfilm) really works, his belief in this person’s “veracity” doesn’t count for much though. That doesn’t mean he’s a troll, but posting things to Saltier than Crait doesn’t do a lot for credibility in any account. I don’t know this man, but I can disbelieve the story he’s been fed without casting aspersions on his personality or his being (I wasn’t trying to do that, anyway.) I don’t think you need to defend his character, because I’m not really assaulting it.

But this story is very detailed and very outlandish and is based on a premise that is pretty ridiculous, because it ultimately suggests Bob Iger is willing to use Star Wars and JJ Abrams as human shields to protect Marvel Studios from an ascendant Warner Bros.

All you have to do is look at 2019’s box-office totals to see how little sense that makes.

Oh dang, I initially had quoted ATM’s “Honestly I don’t think RJ works well with characters he didn’t create himself,” but I don’t know why you’d try to rebut my response to that statement if you didn’t on some level agree with it? I must have confused you following up on my own response with the person I was quoting.

Apologies for any misunderstanding, but I tried to be as clear as possible what I was arguing and why I was arguing it, but I did confuse you with another poster later in the conversation.

the hashtag is definitely speeding up this morning, but the response to the hashtag is pretty skeptical it seems, so that’s somewhat reassuring, I guess. Kind of.

There’s not going to be any “proof” there. It’s a pretty ridiculous claim for a single source to be making considering how huge it is, and how many secret/behind-the-scenes rooms this story takes place in. That one source would need to be in almost all those rooms firsthand for any of this to make sense, and making sense isn’t a huge concern considering the story opens with the notion this whole thing was an Iger-led game of 4D chess whose ultimate goal was preventing WB from competing with Marvel Studios.

act on instinct said:

I think maybe you’re misinterpreting or responding to someone other than me because my point was not to slander Rian as hard to work with, or to minimize the role of a director. But it is clear he did write TLJ and did not write Breaking Bad which was deep into its own arcs which were followed completely under his direction. The difference between those two examples is the amount of control and authorship.

No, I directly quoted you. He had control and authorship of those episodes. Those episodes were directed by Rian Johnson, and for any of this conversation to make any sense, it assumes that the director is a major part of a film’s “authorship.” Whether you meant to minimize the role of director you were inadvertently doing so and that’s what I was responding to. He was given control and authorship of The Last Jedi to a larger degree than he was on Breaking Bad, but the idea that he doesn’t work well with other people’s creations doesn’t hold a lot of water to me. If that were true I don’t think any of the three episodes he was put in charge of would have worked out as well as they did, or that he’d keep being asked back to direct them. If you’re solely looking at Star Wars and Star Wars alone, maybe I could see that argument being put forward, but I still don’t think it stands up very well considering the movie essentially played out exactly the way he wanted it to, and it only gets wobblier once you apply a larger perspective and take in the rest of his career outside of Star Wars, and see the collaborations he had were smooth and productive, and the end result was, as with every other movie he’s made, a critical and financial success.

But the director isn’t just a director on any set. He’s also partially a cinematographer, partially an editor, partially an acting coach, and yes - partially a writer. Even if they never get those credits. The idea that he doesn’t work well with characters he didn’t create doesn’t make sense considering one of the best shows on television, one he had zero hand in creating or developing, kept having him come back to direct increasingly more and more important episodes.

The idea that he doesn’t work well with people or their creations doesn’t hold a lot of water when looking at his career, a career which has never actually had a failure in it, looking at both audience, critical, and financial receptions.

Rian got what he wanted because he works well with people and those people all helped him realize his vision.

ATMachine said:

Honestly I don’t think RJ works well with characters he didn’t create himself. He’s probably a far better director without having to deal with a collaborative series of films.

The three episodes of Breaking Bad he directed are widely considered three of the best episodes that show ever produced.

Rian Johnson works well with basically everybody.

It’s 100% far-fetched. It’s fan-fiction from a very controversial subreddit. The idea that Iger, who sought out Abrams personally, only did so to hamstring WB’s attempts to make successful DC movies (which they’re already doing - Joker is going to make more than Rise of Skywalker worldwide) doesn’t make any sense unless you’re the sort of person who is already inclined to believe all the conspiracy theory stuff that goes along with being a DC “Release the Snyder Cut” fan.

A hashtag on twitter isn’t evidence of anything but people on twitter enjoying the open trade of hot takes and loud opinions. Besides which, there’ve been warnings that malcontents would be pushing a “Release the JJ Cut” campaign last week, because being loudly anti-Disney is good money for a lot of people whose online incomes depend on patreon donations, YouTube monetization, etc.

Well, all of JJ’s movies share a lot of similarities because he’s got an identifiable, strong personal style. But Into Darkness, save for the very poor decision to sample the ending from Wrath of Khan and invert it despite it not having any set up (or real point, considering we’d already seen at this point Khan isn’t even the real bad guy in the film, more like an antihero), had some similar problems, but it also wasn’t as incoherent from a storytelling perspective. Almost all the beats it was trying to pay off were set up and investigated at least a little. It’s not a successful film overall, but there are more effective moments in it, and those moments are more competently strung together. It’s a much more consistently constructed and executed movie than The Rise of Skywalker.

I was going to click the reddit link but it appears to come from “Saltier than Crait” which isn’t a subreddit that’s ever had much worth or value as anything but a gall-bladder for Star Wars. There are much more reliable places to source information from than a place that is essentially a self-described salt mine.

Fan fiction isn’t just for people who enjoy shipping. There are lots of places online where fan-fiction is how you play the game of “this is how I would have done it if I were in charge” and so people write very involved stories using real-life figures as the characters in a Lifetime movie.

Anyway, the “Darth Vader’s Death” music is 100% from Return of the Jedi, it sounded to me like they took it from the CD, and it’s very oddly edited on top of that.

I know the odds of there being an extended version are about as good as there being original versions on the upcoming box set - but I have to believe this thing got at least a half hour cut out of it at the last minute, if not maybe even 40-45 minutes. I don’t know if that extra time would have helped, or if it just would have been a half hour of more “what the hell - why are these people doing all these things?” but knowing that they edited Lando and Jannah’s final scene to make it look like he was hitting on her when we know they SHOT that scene as the closing of both their character’s arcs and beginning of a father/daughter adventure…

if that storyline existed on film and became THAT ending by the time the movie crossed the finish line, then it makes me wonder if every question I have about the messy, truncated, dead-end plotting in this movie actually DOES have an answer, it’s just on a hard drive somewhere marked “Deleted scenes.”

There are some good things in the movie! I just wish there was a better movie surrounding those moments. There’s a LOT of movie. But not so much a better one. I wonder if the better one got shaved to death.

NeverarGreat said:

Broom Kid, I’ve seen you bring this up several times before, to the point where I legitimately wonder why you are on a site which proudly proclaims its intensely-focused sub-fandom cred if you believe that such a thing is unhealthy.

Couple reasons. Three, actually:

1. I’m not any different than anyone else who struggles with breaking (or at least modulating) unhealthy habits, or who is trying to find a way to maintain a balance that works. Plus I like Star Wars.

2. This place DOES have its share of toxic behaviors and bad posters engaging in mostly unhealthy behavior, but it’s also small and self-contained enough (and willing to self-police in a manner that many communities don’t indulge, or in some cases actively shun) that compared to other communities, it’s relatively “safe,” if you will. Plus it’s one of the few places in which “community” isn’t a pretentious euphemism, but an accurate descriptor.

3. All things in moderation, etc.

I want to leave in 2019 the idea that a fandom is toxic purely because it is a fandom. People are allowed to have strong positive feelings for works of art, and they are allowed to come together to express those feelings. I don’t think that is a bad thing.

It doesn’t HAVE to be, no, and I agree that it’s not always. But I’ve seen about 20 years of experience that it almost always becomes that way, and the last 10 of that 20 has been an ongoing example in how bad it becomes once mainstreamed.

Being a fan of something is fine. Sharing why you like things with others who might share your interests is also fine. But millions of people manage to do this all the time without being part of a fandom. Liking popular culture isn’t special, and that self-awareness goes a long way towards avoiding the mentally unhealthy pitfalls fandom is constantly introducing while its members act like those pitfalls are actually swimming pools. Letting entertainment supplement your life experiences is good! That’s what it’s supposed to do! Letting your enjoyment of an entertainment REPLACE large parts of your personality? That’s fandom. One of those results often discards moderation and perspective, and promotes obsession, entitlement, possessiveness, and fixation, and that’s where it can get unhealthy if you’re not paying attention to yourself and what you’re doing with your time.

Good things can come out of fandoms, have done before, will do again, and are truly remarkable at times. But the presence of a good thing in a bad situation doesn’t transform the situation’s inherent badness. Good students graduate from terrible schools every year. Fandom is like a school that is nothing but electives. That might be fun for a semester or two, but if you’re not careful you wake up a decade later like Wooderson cruising high school parking lots trying to get high with some 5th year seniors because they won’t realize you’ve been making the same jokes and telling the same war stories for the last 10 years.

Again - way off topic. But you asked me directly, so I thought I should at least answer. For what it’s worth, I appreciate that you addressed me directly, and did so with patience and kindness (which we could all do with a lot more of) so for my part, I’m going to try and help fulfill your request to leave conversations about fandom toxicity behind in 2019, so when I do visit here and see fit to pitch in my two cents, I’ll keep that particular penny in my pocket. Or leave it in the tray at the 7-11 before I even come through the door.

Happy New Year!

Fandom in general is pretty mentally unhealthy. It only makes sense that smaller, more intensely-focused sub-fandoms would be seen as being even more “yikes.” The mainstreaming of fandom is maybe one of the worst things to have been facilitated by the internet in the 21st century, not just in how it helped normalize toxicity in discourse, but in how entertainment discussions have become both distraction from, and proxy for, ACTUALLY important and and meaningful things happening in the real world.

The more we get distracted, the more we convince ourselves the distractions are more meaningful than they actually are - the more meaning we undeservedly project onto entertainments, the more warped and shrunk our perspectives become, the more toxic and reactionary we are - until the baseline we occupy every time we log on is frequently scared, angry, helpless, and disillusioned, at all times, of most things; things which we can’t control and never could because we don’t actually make movies or tv shows, we just watch them - which only causes us to further pursue pop culture distractions as a form of “escapism.”

It’s a pretty dumb, ugly, vicious circle that’s been mainstreamed and normalized to a fairly disturbing degree. Its partially why our cultural memory is maybe two-weeks long at best.

Anyway - way off topic, I know, so back to the ending shot: I don’t think the editor has any reason to lie about that final shot, so I’ll take their word for it, and it’s honestly a lot more likely that crowdsourced internet detective work wasn’t correct than the editor is lying to cover something up. There’s a lot more evidence of the former being frequently true than there is the latter.

And yes, Rey being Palpatine’s hidden granddaughter is some JJ Abrams “Spock just happens to be in the exact cave that young Kirk escaped from a monster into” level coincidence, LOL