Broom Kid

very curious to have a look at this!

The screenshots as posted seem stretched to 16x9, however. I’m guessing that’s inaccurate to what the rip itself looks like?

IIRC, this laserdisc was also mastered to a lower IRE level, leading to the blacks looking crushed unless brightness/contrast were adjusted on the display itself - something to do with the difference between the Japanese and North American markets? I’m not completely sure on this, and could be wrong (someone please correct me if I am), but I know from personal experience with the disc that it definitely looks a lot more contrasty and crushed than other late-era laserdiscs.

Thanks so much for doing this, and posting it. The amount of work is tremendous!

act on instinct said:

I think the purpose of not doing that was specifically to keep agency with the main protagonists, just like how Luke doesn’t actually swoop in to save the day as to not overshadow the new characters we’re meant to be following this trilogy.

There’s a way to combine the two, and it’s not an all or nothing, either. I think that, again, simply bringing Palpatine back like that begs the question of old heroes also returning to combat him in this “once and for all the end of everything” type battle. Rey can still have the agency in that situation (coming up with the plan, striking the decisive blow, etc…) but there needs to be the confidence in your own characters and in your storytelling to be able to incorporate these sorts of things into your ending, and if you don’t have that confidence, you probably shouldn’t be pursuing an avenue that actively demands you go there.

It’s just another example of Rise of Skywalker being packed full of scattered and scared decisionmaking. They didn’t have any faith in figuring out how to incorporate past heroes into a generational conclusion so they just sidestepped the whole thing, and it wound up completely unsatisfying. The first thing we see her do in the movie is hover in place pleading for those old heroes to commune with her. The story is itself asking for those heroes to return THROUGH the main character. She’s expressing her agency by asking them to come visit her. If they ACTUALLY VISIT HER in the end, and actively help her strike the decisive blow (or realize the pacifist plan she comes up with) against Palpatine once and for all, that’s not overshadowing her. They just didn’t have the will (or the ability, or the time, or all three) to figure out a way to get to that ending in a satisfying way. So they did a shortcutted half-ass version of it instead and called it a wrap.

Part of the reason Rey is such a strong character in TFA and TLJ is because in those instances, the writers didn’t succumb to the need to protect their character, to remove obstacles from her path or engineer situations so she can more easily realize her potential. If they needed their character to be strong enough to do what the story’s arcs dictated they do, dramatically - they cleverly and creatively wrote their character to BE that strong in organic, natural means within that story. Rise of Skywalker is a good example of writers not believing in their characters fully, and playing “prevent defense” to use a football metaphor.

I don’t think Disney’s going to be doing Special or Extended Editioning of Star Wars at all.

They’re more of a “remake it entirely” kind of company.

So keep an eye out for that in about 10-15 years, probably.

DrDre said:

I think the issue wasn’t just bringing back Palpatine, but by extension killing him again. How are you going to convince people he’s really gone this time?

Yeah, that’s why speculation/rumor turned to the Force Ghosts having something to do with it. Seeing his SPIRIT get snuffed out was probably the only way you could say “okay, he’s gone.” But that wasn’t the way they went with it, and there weren’t any ghosts on the scene.

It’s part of the bizarre disconnect, because everyone who follows these films seems to have a pretty general understanding of story and myth as it is, and even if they couldn’t overtly articulate WHY they expected certain things, the setup FOR those expectations is right there in the scenario. If you’re bringing back a bad guy from the dead at the very end of a story thoroughly populated with heroic ghosts, it’s more or less begging the question of how those ghosts are going to have their part to play in FINALLY, COMPLETELY defeating this old villain once and for all.

Honestly, having Kylo sacrifice to trap Palpatine as a spirit with no body, and then ghost Ben and Anakin teaming up to ensure Palpatine’s ultimate eradication isn’t even a huge creative leap. It doesn’t make any sense why it wasn’t even considered or pursued.

DrDre said:

Ben Solo goes after her, and convinces Palpatine to let Rey live, by allowing Palpatine’s spirit to possess him. As this happens what remains of Ben tells Rey, that it will only be a matter of time before he is consumed, and she should kill him. She does, and Palpatine’s spirit tries to get back to the clone body, but Rey destroys it before he can enter the clone. Being without a vessel for his spirit, the Force ghosts of the Jedi appear, and destroy Palpatine’s spirit.

IIRC this was a pretty popular rumor before the movie came out? Something like this. I know at the least a few people thought the redemption/sacrifice Ben was going to make in the movie was along these lines.

I remember so many people also just kind of automatically assuming there were going to be a ton of force ghosts in the climax once Palpatine got announced. It just seemed to follow that if you were bringing back a long dead bad guy you now had the door open to ALSO bring back all the long dead good guys as a counter.

Dek Rollins said:

I’d be glad to be proven wrong, but I’ll be perfectly happy when 4K77 v2.0 comes out regardless.

I’d go so far as to say if 4K77 v2.0 is even 70% what’s being aimed for, it’s going to be better than what Verta’s presumed-to-be finished product was.

This is a landmark project in the fan-preservation community, don’t get me wrong. It showed a lot of people what could be done, and inspired a lot of people on its own, even though it never came out. But it’s also probably long past time to recognize that even if it HAD come out, 4k77 (and projects built on, and incorporating that work) would have superseded it anyway.

DominicCobb said:

Now that I think of it it would be nice if we could figure out some solution(s) to Mustafar. I do have a couple ideas in mind.

starts to raise hand

looks around

puts hand back down

shuffles backward

exits stage left

I think it’s the last sentence that pinpoints our disagreement here (which, really, doesn’t matter much since it’s your edit and it only needs to satisfy your tastes, examples of which are proving to be pretty damn impeccable on your vimeo page) - I’m not arguing that you need to cast him as “purely” megalomaniacal, but really that trying to do ANY of his character’s heavy lifting IN the crawl isn’t a great idea. The crawl is basic plot setup - usually the most you get in the way of character description is an adjective, and that adjective is a descriptor that is already really, really obvious. (“Vile gangster, etc…”)

His motivations aren’t obfuscated, really. What’s obfuscated is his willingness to turn to the light, a willingness not really made clear until way later in the movie (for good dramatic reasons, too). That’s done on purpose, because a redemption that’s foreshadowed is a redemption made rote. He needs to, at the least, seem like THE BAD GUY at the beginning of the movie (same way Vader did at the beginning of ROTJ, or alternately, the way Anakin was set up as a very swashbuckling hero at the beginning of ROTS) so the dramatic heft of his reversal and redemption arc is as realized as possible.

Basically, phrasing his goal as something that seems so inherently GOOD as “ending the cycle of war” - a phrase that calls attention to itself as a universally recognized POSITIVE goal, and ascribing it to him specifically is an act that softens the character before he even appears. It’s not even a Kylo specific thing: Any redemption arc in a movie needs to start with that character in a position where redemption seems unlikely. If you’re setting him up before his first scene as someone pursuing a goal as good-sounding as “ending the cycle of war” you’re basically borrowing up-front before the story’s even really started, from the sympathy the audience will be giving him on their own later.

Anyway, that’s why my suggested rewrite took out the phrase. His redemption packs more punch and is better executed if there aren’t any hints at his better nature being referenced in the crawl.

Also, thank you for the time and patience you’re showing in pursuing this line of feedback with me. I know you absolutely don’t have to, you don’t owe it to anyone, especially since I’m not actively helping you with your edit. But I do appreciate the back and forth, and even if the suggestions get rejected, I’m glad you’re still open to hearing them. Thank you!

DominicCobb said:

Completely disagree. There’s a difference between the goal and its methods. What I’m establishing is 100% in line with his words and actions in TLJ. He wants to end it all (or “let it all die”), but they way he’s doing it is crushing the Resistance. If he wants to end the cycle of war, that’s noble, but obviously if the way he’s going to do it is with a planet killing fleet (which is what I set up in this crawl), that’s not exactly altruistic in any way.

But the way you’re phrasing it in the crawl seems to be intentionally tipping the scales. Again, even if we differ philosophically on where he is at the beginning of Rise of Skywalker (and I don’t think we differ that much) the main objection to it that I have is that it’s shortcutting his arc - you’re foreshadowing his turn to the light IN the crawl by making his goals appear nobler than they are through the wording. Yes, there’s a difference between the goal and the methods, I don’t disagree. What I’m saying is that you’re basically prepping audiences to be on the lookout for that change before it’s even really hinted at IN the narrative of the film proper.

Put another way: Yes, as a dictator, he’s looking to end the cycle of war (in his favor, of course), but by phrasing it that way IN the crawl, you’re removing the some of the ambiguity in his mission to end that cycle from the beginning of the film, and it makes his decision to end that cycle of war from a completely different approach at the Death Star ruins later a little flatter, dramatically. I just don’t think you want to tip your hand as to Kylo’s ultimate change-of-heart and redemption IN the crawl. As a dramatic gesture, it’s detracting from his arc, not clarifying it.

Finally the phrase that I want to include that no one else seems to want to is Kylo Ren wanting to “end the cycle of war once and for all.”

Yeah, I rewrote it the way I did there because it’s basically putting key characterization advancement in the crawl, and whether or not I disagree with that particular shading (and I kind of do - at that point in the movie and in your edit, he’s not trying to “end war,” he’s trying to rule unchallenged from his dictator position, and squash all potential enemies) I think it’s kind of a not-great shortcut to his eventual redemption at the end of the movie that gives away the game way too early.

To me, including that sentence isn’t shedding light on his arc, it’s shortcutting it. It’s kind of unfairly altruistic to describe his actions as “ending the cycle of war” at that point, especially if the only reason its being included is to dramatically shorten the jump from “Starts as bad guy, dies as good guy.” For the redemption to carry as much weight as possible, he needs to be bad for the first half of the movie, and read as such the most strongly in the beginning, so his arc actually has an arc to travel. The insinuation that he’s going to turn is made super-clear as it is in the movie already, dedicating crawl-space (ha!) to further hitting that idea feels a little overkill.

DominicCobb said:

Personally I don’t like the idea of name dropping Mustafar in the crawl, it has like a minute of screen time and is done with. The crawl should be setting up things for the movie as a whole. Plus it might be confusing considering it doesn’t look like Mustafar.

I know you’re not convinced you should just start with Kylo jumping into Exogol’s orbit but the above is a pretty decent argument for just excising the Mustafar Minute entirely.

Meanwhile, Supreme Leader KYLO REN searches for the unknown regions of space for the remains a rumored Imperial fleet, anxious to gain a foothold that could end the cycle of war once and for all. . . .

how about:

Meanwhile, Supreme Leader KYLO REN, eager to end the RESISTANCE once and for all, is searching the unknown regions of space for a rumored Imperial fleet that will give him the power he needs to end the war, forever. . . .

The in-progress edits look (and sound) frankly amazing, Dom.

To quote one of history’s most famous Hannibals:

I love it when a plan comes together.

Harmy said:
I will also definitely try to set up some collaboration with oohteedee, because it seems he’s already done a lot of the work and maybe I could just provide him with despecialized shots for his version to replace shots that in his version are just cleaned up scans but could be put together in higher quality by despecializing.

That’s awesome news. You two joining resources is like a theatrical reconstruction dream team.

seeing Harmy and oohteedee come together to create the ultimate de-specialized edition would be pretty cool, if they wanted to pool their resources together.

It seems like Kiner scored each “act” differently. There’s definitely a Vangelis vibe to the first part, and then Williams kicks back in for Order 66, and then it sort of becomes the Tron: Legacy soundtrack for the next act.

It’s also, looking at what happened in this episode, seeming like Filoni rewrote this final arc as kind of a riff on the Disney Era movies. Episode 1 had a LOT of The Last Jedi in it, and this one is very clearly pulling from Rogue One.

I used to HAVE this set, but never had the reel to reel machine to play it. Ended up giving them away as a gift.

It looks like when this thread went up (2016) the “easily google-able” part was true. But now in 2020, the link probably being referenced (http://www.yfymidatakuras.xpg.com.br/star-wars-24-96-flac.html) is long dead, and it appears to have never been archived, either.

“Fan Forums” are one of the worst possible ways to “know” anyone, or build any sort of accurate picture of a person. Conversations about Star Wars aren’t a great basis for determining what a person’s character is like, and there’s not a lot of upside to looking at those conversations in that light, anyway. It doesn’t really make the conversation any better, usually doesn’t increase any understanding of the movies, and mostly just leads you to put way too much weight on something (disposable conversations with strangers about space movies) that just isn’t built to carry that much weight.

I don’t know that I agree that ‘toxic’ needs to stop being used as a descriptor, if only because it CAN apply very well… the problem is that a huge part of WHY it applies is because people DO approach disposable conversations with strangers about space movies with such misplaced energy and importance that it ends up warping perspective, to the point where real toxicity can occur. But usually it’s a pretty long walk between “jeez, that guy is annoying” to “jeez, that guy is TOXIC.”

But even then, that doesn’t mean anyone here can paint a really accurate picture of anyone else’s personality based solely on the very small, focused, and mostly inconsequential (and anonymous) glimpses being given through “Star Wars” talks. Most everyone here has a whole LIFE outside of liking Star Wars that is bigger, and way more important than this, and we’ll never really know about it beyond the surface. Toxicity can be a temporary condition, too, and if you find yourself getting upset at other people’s opinions on Star Wars, in my experience, that just means its time to stop and reflect on what you’re putting into this, and what you’re getting out of it, and whether there’s an imbalance that needs to be tended to on YOUR end.

Apologies for being off topic. Just wanted to speak a little from my perspective, having seen (and been in) so many of these sorts of scuffles and fights over the years.

To sum up: Ewoks are awesome, Yub Nub is the best, “Return of the Jedi” is referencing Luke, celebrate the love, keep balance in the Force.

SilverWook said:

Ohio-Wan??

Yes, the highly-acclaimed padawan of Qui-Gon Jinndiana

SilverWook said:
As Vader never says Leia’s name out loud, does he only sense Luke has a sister, but not her actual identity?

I always thought this was the case, because there is no way anyone involved wouldn’t have written in some sort of recognition on his part that his daughter was the very woman he kidnapped, tortured, imprisoned, let free, and then got his boss’s office blown up. And THEN she was trapped, her boyfriend was tortured, and she was set to be kidnapped again!

He knows damn well who Leia Organa is, he would have said something if he knew that the “sister” was that woman, right? Especially since, at that point, he has no reason to play anything close to the chest in that regard.

edit: while I’m joining the wall-crawling party - Return of the Jedi is obviously a reference to Luke, and always was a reference to Luke, even when it was called “revenge.” - the story is focused on him. Yes it can also be interpreted in other ways, which is cool, but it seems really obvious to me, looking at all the behind-the-scenes info collected over the last 30 plus years, that the intention was always for this last Star Wars movie (at the time) to be ABOUT LUKE, and the title always reflected that, even when it changed and changed back. Luke is the Jedi that is returning. He’s also the “New Hope” that’s being referenced in ANH’s retroactively applied title. 2 out of the 3 OT movies are literally NAMED after him (which is fine, the OT was originally supposed to be “The Adventures of Luke Skywalker.”

It’s why Lucas retroactively trying to say the OT + PT is Anakin’s story, and always was Anakin’s story, is such bunk.

MikeMatt101 said:

Is this true of all the OT BDs though or just ANH?

My understanding is that it’s true of all the new blus, but the DNR problems are actually more pronounced on ESB and ROTJ.

The 2019 BDs seem to be much more uniform in presentation than the UHDs no matter what. The biggest problem seems to be that Reliance went HAM on the transfer with noise reduction since they were primarily remastering for 3D conversion to be applied after the fact. Reliance is pretty heavy handed with the DNR even when they weren’t protecting for 3D gimmickry, so in scenes where the 3D probably wasn’t going to be very prominent, you end up with a nice transfer that makes the movie look better than it ever has on home video. And then in the same transfer you end up with SUPER-processed shots and sequences that are just smeared and artifacted to hell.

The color grade seems to be the first time since 1997 that we’re getting somewhat CLOSE to what the DP and director’s intended for their films to look like, and the 2019 Blu-Rays seem to be the best way of seeing what that looks like, for now, since the UHDs seem to mandate users do some tinkering on their side to figure out how to get it to “look right.”

It’s the same as the cap from earlier in the thread that prompted the comparison. I just grabbed that one, and then grabbed all the others from what I had here.

I’m not 100% whether that cap was made from the 4k, or the 2019 blu-ray. I sorta feel like anyone trying to cap anything from the 4k disc is entering into a crapshoot since UHD is, frankly, kind of a mess so far as actually seeing what anyone who shot the damn thing meant for you to see. Even good UHD transfers seem to be kind of “up in the air” as to whether they look like the movie was supposed to look.

It really does seem to me like the primary instinct behind UHD’s creation was to match TV makers’ notions of what makes TVs look good, and not to capture what filmmaker’s notions of what they want their films to look like.

The mo-cap for both fighters was great, although as amazing as it looked, there were a couple times where I was sort of jarred out of the moment because of just how different this fight looked compared to every other fight they’ve done on this show. The choreography itself is stellar. This is maybe the best lightsaber fight of the prequel era.

I do want to see the behind-the-scenes filming of the fight between Park and Lauren May Kim (who did Ahsoka’s moves).

I also understand why everyone is all “PRAISE FILONI” in response to these two episodes, but I do think it’s worth pointing out Dave didn’t direct these episodes. He wrote them, and he’s the showrunner, so I absolutely understand giving him credit, and he deserves a ton of it. But the way this episode looks, moves, and is cut together? That’s not Dave. I feel sort of bad for the animators and the ACTUAL directors (Saul Ruiz, Nathaniel Villanueva) that the greatness of these last two episodes is being 100% credited to Filoni and Park.

This is already doing what Revenge of the Sith wanted to do so much better than Revenge of the Sith did it.

Also, was that Kevin Kiner trying to quote Close Encounters of the Third Kind in the opening?

Isn’t that shot a notorious problem spot on ROTJ? I think there’s permanent film-damage baked into the negative that makes any cleaning/fixing near impossible.

Not to say the frozen grain and DNR problems aren’t real problems - they absolutely are, and one of the worst side-effects of the 3D fad reaching out from the past to mess up this set.