Benign Viewer

SilverWook said:

Han has a Rebel rank insignia on his Hoth outfit though. 😉

So he does. I could come up with some explanation (like the only extreme cold weather gear available was what the Rebels had and provided him with, so it wasn’t official, or it’s some symbolic insignia recognizing him for his involvement in Yavin etc., or even a security level access pass for an independent captain so that he as access to his ship) but I shall stand corrected, that is a probable possible assumption. 😉

sunglassesatnite said:

I honestly think Jedi is equal in every respect to the other two films in the trilogy.  I just think when something works, it “works,” and even with its flaws it is still a classic.  Things I love about Jedi:

The green lightsaber.  A perfectly timed, visually interesting way to introduce Luke as a Jedi that means business this time. Great.

Interestingly, from what I’ve seen of the behind the scenes for ROTJ, Luke’s light saber was originally intended to be blue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgB4gaY2dWE (pay close to attention to @1:05) but it didn’t show up very well against the desert backdrop. So it was changed to green to be more visible.
It was blue on all the original promotional material as well:

generalfrevious said:

The Dark Knight Rises insulted my intelligence, and made me regret ever seeing the whole Nolan trilogy. With the sloppy continuity errors, the over the top writing, Batman sounding like the dad from Rocket Power, the fact that Bane wasn’t the main villain after all wasting three hours of our time; and the stupid asinine ending where 12 million people are going to slowly die of radiation sickness while Bruce Wayne jets off to Europe with his girlfriend after faking his death pisses me off. Not to mention 90% of the film is spent with Bruce Wayne making a hundred failed attempts to get out of a fucking pit.

How is that better than ROTJ, let alone a more satisfying ending?

I agree, I would easily place ROTJ over TDKR. I wouldn’t however put it above Return of the King or Toy Story 3.
It currently inhabits 3rd place on my personal list of best conclusions to a trilogy behind the afore mentioned; as a previous commenter said, I don’t treat The Last Crusade or The Good, the Bad and the Ugly by the same standard as they are not episodic. They are essentially but stand alone entries set in the same universe and/or with the same characters from the previous films in the respective franchises.

imperialscum said:

Benign Viewer said:

In ROTJ, Han is bland.

No he is not.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I don’t read the same things for his character that you do into the lack of things he has to do in the story and plot. I wish that I did.

imperialscum said:

Han was full-time rebel in ESB. Why should ROTJ be responsible for showing something that happened between ANH and ESB.

No he wasn’t.
He did not hold rank within the Alliance, nor is he under contract to them. This is evidenced by the folowing:

• He is just addressed as “Sir”, “Solo” or “Captain Solo” (as he is the Captain of the Falcon);
• Rieekan refers to him as a “fighter” not a ‘soldier’;
• When he addresses the last transport on which Leia was supposed to evacuate, he says “This is Solo”, again not referring to any rank or call sign which he would have as a commissioned rebel; and, most notably,
• He gets into the famous argument with Leia about the fact that he’s decided to leave them, more or less on a whim (and the looming threat of Jabba) - something which he would not be able to do (nor need to) if he had signed on with the Rebel Alliance.
• Luke, by contrast is referred to as “Commander [Skywalker]” almost exclusively during the Hoth sequence (outside of by his friends of course).

It’s never addressed in canon, but if you take the EU at its word, during the period between ANH and ESB, Solo flew blockade runs and supply sorties for the alliance, for which he was paid on a case by case basis, as you would a smuggler; but that he really hung around for Luke and Leia.

generalfrevious said:

DominicCobb said:

generalfrevious said:
Are there any fans of Jedi, that are not under the age of 12?

Yes, probably safe to say that the majority of the members on this site fit that description.

But never in the same way as ANH and ESB. Within the trilogy it will always come in last place, having more in common with the later prequels. This no longer represents the culmination of a great trilogy that was almost beyond mere movies, but the long decline that comes after a brief flash. If the Prequels never existed it would be forgivable, but the PT is such a giant millstone around our necks that it turns everything into ruin. The next three films have to be beyond flawless now just to make the franchise passable again.

o.O Um hi… You know you can cut the chain holding that millstone right? How other people view the franchise should not affect you personally; the more divergent opinions are, the more broad and interesting the possibilities are for discussion!

If the new films are great they will up lift Return, perhaps bringing pay-offs to points that were previously flaws, and giving the saga new energy when viewed such that people will be driven past the lulls and snags of ROTJ by the fact that the story is still going on.

Them prequels will just remain a nice hypothetical thought experiment in the back of our minds that we need not trouble ROTJ, and ourselves, with again. I hope.

generalfrevious said:

It’s still a no win situation in light of TFA. If the new film is good, Jedi loses its bronze medal; if it’s bad, then it will be the forerunner of five bad Star Wars films. My Star Wars fandom has now been reduced to whether or not Jedi is defensible as a film. Ask any film critic, it is an objective failure, and may be inferior to Episode III for fuck’s sake! It may be seen only as a guilty pleasure at best, but it will never be Empire, or any work of art. Star Wars and Empire have fans; Jedi only has defenders. And when a film has defenders and not fans, that is never a good sign.

I think you’re perhaps overly pessimistic; While I don;t think ROTJ is a great film, I still love it for the characters that came before and the highs and lows it hits so well (particularly in the Luke/Vader/Emperor confrontation).

It still beats all of the prequels combined in my books, any day of the week. Beat them to death, if it was able.

I’m willing to give whatever input I can. Although I personally don’t like the idea of Ben Kenobi as a clone.

First though, a question: For this overarching story how many stories do you wish it to entail?
(i.e. 3 stories sticking to the trilogy convention? Or more/less?)

imperialscum said:

Benign Viewer said:
Han gets rescued. Is made a full time Alliance general in a scene that we don’t see. Goes from event to event as the plot dictates. The unique aspects of his character neither influence nor are influenced by any of these events.

You could say the same stuff about his character in ANH and ESB. The arc is only prominent if you look at it from entire trilogy perspective. In ANH he pretends to be a badass. In ESB he softens up (stops pretending as people get to known him well). In ROTJ he is himself.

Benign Viewer said:
Has a super villain revealed as her father, and a long lost brother revealed, neither of which influence her character nor influence her or events in any way subsequently.

What would you like? A soap opera? Destruction of her home planet didn’t influence her character in any way. Why should this influence her character?

I think AOTC might be perfect for you. You have a sensitive main character. Every little thing influences his character. You got lots of soap opera and whining. On top of that there is lots of “representative or member of High Command” stuff as well.

In ROTJ, Han is bland. It’s actually prequel-esque story telling (tell, don’t show characterization) where we never actually see Han make the decision to become a full-time Rebel, and why.
Note That to be shown this we don’t have to have dialogue of him whining about his feelings. Which should be obvious but it seems I have to keep addressing charges of wanting everything to be like the fucking prequels with you.

Let’s get that all out of the way now. You’re straw-manning me. That’s just about the lowest form of argument. As I said, I don’t expect you to agree with me, but just because I had a different vision of the film to you does not mean I wanted AOTC (a bad film like no other) for all of the Star Wars saga.

Debate the merit of my argument, please, instead of sophomorically putting words in my mouth. Wanting there to be some actual drama in the film (for characters other than Luke) instead of one great big pat-on-the-back-fest does not mean that ‘Soap Opera’ is the only alternative. That’s a false dichotomy.

I’m commenting on this thread because I want to discuss the flaws and merits of Return of the Jedi, such as each individual thinks they exist. I don’t care about insults and faux pas humour personally, but I can see that it’s a waste of my time.

imperialscum said:

Both Han and Liea still have major character arcs in ROTJ. They just aren’t as dumb as you would like them to be. 😃

LOL I’ve read enough of your comments over this thread not to take your attitude to heart (and to know that we’ll probably never agree) but seriously what character arcs? 😛

Han gets rescued. Is made a full time Alliance general in a scene that we don’t see. Goes from event to event as the plot dictates. The unique aspects of his character neither influence nor are influenced by any of these events.

Leia rescues Han. Is made a combat soldier in a scene we never see; is (apparently) not an acting Allinace leader, representative or member of High Command. Proceeds to go from event to event as the plot dictates. Has a super villain revealed as her father, and a long lost brother revealed, neither of which influence her character nor influence her or events in any way subsequently.

Sorry, but these are not arcs. I tend to by and large agree with the vein of Bingo and Frink’s criticisms. I’m glad you you enjoy the film so, though, and can take so much out of it.

My benign best to you.

Bingowings said:

Most of this is down to the acting of the four people playing Vader/Anakin, Mark and Ian.

(That would be five people actually; Vader had three actors between Shaw, Prowse and Earl Jones).

Darth Id said:

imperialscum said:

…your ideas would make the film a boring soap opera instead of a fun adventure sci-fi/fantasy.

I knew there was something I liked about them!

–Georgie-Poo

LOL you guys.

And now to retort, having actually thought about it some more, and not just fly(writ)ing by the seat of my pants:

None of the ideas I postulated above, poor or not, would require much screen time.

Granted my random (3am) thoughts on what could’ve been done with Han were rubbish. No denying that. I’ll just dismiss them out hand as well.

For Leia though, making a couple of tweaks to my initial thoughts; you could very easily have near the film’s start had a scene with her arguing with the Alliance command about the necessity/feasibility of rescuing Han, (or just her storming out afterwards even) and perhaps have her demoted for insisting on going to rescue him. Rescue ensues, et cetera et cetera, it now makes more sense for her to be on the Endor shuttle crew.
Add another scene if you like of her taking charge during the battle from one of the Imperial communications relay or something after the loss of some of the rebel leaders due to the Death Star II, or their communications are knocked out, if you want a further pay off for the earlier scene.
These two additions would not take more than a couple of minutes of screen time and BAM you have an arc for Leia without even altering the plot (because sorry, I did not like the recycled use of a Death Star much, cool as the space battle was).

Now all this speculation is pointless, other than to point out that it would have been very much possible to give the other major characters of the OT arcs in ROTJ, even within the existing plot structure of the film. Thus I don’t think it lived up to its potential despite having my personal favourite sequence in the entire saga (between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor).
Ergo, for me, ROTJ is the third best Star Wars film.

That would be appreciated, I’ve recently been compiling my own new ‘canon’ collection of Star Wars fanedits, and was truly saddened when I couldn’t download yours Spence. I’ve had it in the past (and I also have your Hobbit Edit, which is far and away the best version of those three films) but alas I have your ROTJ final cut no more. Anyone know a way of getting it at present? Fe.info's host link for it is still broken.

Bingowings said:

They do read these threads you know 😄

Knew there was a reason I liked this community so much. They can read. 😉

hundsdorfex said:

I’m still downloading Ender’s collection, and the only thing i could do today were some color correction tests on the Bunker scene, and its looking pretty good 😃

I’m looking forward to the finished Bunker scene product Hundsdorfex!

Heya Bingo

Ah that Reddit thread, infamous it now is.

I think the idea in and of itself has merit, I just can’t stand the execution of Ja Ja, so if we were going to up his screen time to play out this arc, then we also need to minimize the aggrandizing effect he has on an audience. It doesn’t matter if it makes for a compelling twist and masterfully hated villain if people are annoyed out of watching the film itself (a la Jack and Jill).

Perhaps altering his voice (or re-dubbing it like Magnoliafan did in their edit with one of the foreign language tracks and subbing it) would make him bearable on screen; some measure of recognition of his antics later on in the PT would have to be added to give the concept an actual pay off, be it Yoda recognizing his force use or Obi Wan his martial arts ‘prowess’ for example matters not, but there needs to be that recognition for the audience to emotionally vent (which may or may not include throwing spoons at the screen 😛).

Thinking the unthinkable indeed.

Aye, that’s the plan. 😃
It will be nice to have some help with FX work, as I’ve already got a long road ahead of me editing the Falcon (and Wedge) scenes inside the super-structure. I have a lot of different ideas to trial for that part of how this all hopefully comes together.
Long time to go yet. And oops, I’m wandering off topic. 😉

Here is a quick mock-up up I made in Photoshop. I haven’t lined up the perspective or lighting of the planet with relation to the superstructure quite right, but it should serve as a good illustration of what I’ve envisioned:

The ‘dish’ of the Death Star will serve as a giant retracting gate/door to Coruscant in my reinterpretation. A shield generator blocks off the unfinished portions of the station.
As opposed to a Super Weapon, this reinterpretation is more of a ‘Super Garrison’ which when complete will make The Empire’s grip on the planet unassailable and if the design is rolled out across the galaxy, will make it impossible for the rebellion to liberate any system from the Emperor.
And beyond that I shan’t spoil any more ideas and plot concepts of my edit here 😉

hundsdorfex said:

You mean something like Telos?
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/3a/Telosrepublic.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20051024034641
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/4/48250/918985-telos_iv.jpg

A planet underneath the Death Star?

Aye Telos IV, exactly, but on a much larger scale. Wasn’t sure if anybody here would get that reference, or treat it favourably, LOL. 😄

Here are another couple of good reference pics:

Dear Hundsdorfex,

I have a special effects challenge to toss into your pipeline, but be sure to come to this after everything else you’ve got going on because I suspect it will be difficult and probably very time consuming.

My request to shop Coruscant or Endor inside the Death Star II’s super structure (so as to be visible through the gaps in the construction, and remove the weapon dish from it, to resemble something like this:

• Ignore the moon in the bottom left corner and the internal energy effects

I’m undecided yet if I’d want Endor removed from the frame as well any time they share it, but nonetheless, this is an idea I’ve had stewing for a while, to turn the recycled Death Star threat of ROTJ into a new giant planetary fortification for my own drastic retelling of ROTJ.
The remastered Bunker scene you are working on will be a great addition as well to my story line. If only I were better at special effects myself, alas I’m learning slowly.

Thank you for your time, and don’t worry if you cannot get around to this for a long time yet!

Which edit version is Frink’s work? Can you give me a link please? I’m always on the hunt for the best adaptation of the Prequels to watch (and hopefully enjoy!)
We’re all eagerly awaiting Ady’s rework of that rubbish, it seems. We should really rename this site ‘Adywan Trilogy’ dot com 😛.

imperialscum said:

I think ROTJ is on par with SW and ESB.

Any kind of comparison between the three in terms of story is stupid since the individual storylines are complementary. I think the ROTJ storyline concludes the trilogy in a great way.

Well Han and Leia took the back seat in ROTJ (compared to SW and ESB) but that most certainly doesn’t mean the characters are badly written in general (as some people get the impression). It is just that other characters (and their development) are more prominent (Luke, Emperor, Jabba, Vader). ESB practically sucked Han and Leia character potential dry. To keep them going, Lucas could have postponed the love proclamation into ROTJ. But then he would degrade ESB.

Anyway I think it is great as it is. OT are my top 3 favourite films.

It would have been more than possible to write Han and Leia’s character arcs into ROTJ.

Han is just coming out of being frozen in carbonite, for months. How does having been in this state of living death affect him? Maybe make his blindness a little more permanent than a good night’s rest; have him blustering - over compensating with confidence - for any potential weakness, you can resolve this with Luke or even Leia ‘healing’ him with the force.

As for Leia, play up the conflict she feels at discovering Vader is her father, juxtaposed with Luke perhaps trying to open her to the force while she resists it/it overwhelms her. She and Luke also then have to decide whether or not to make the patrilineage known to their friends and the wider Rebellion. This can be a source of tension between Han and Leia who love each other passionately but after the trauma of their separation and reunion neither quite know where they stand, especially with the (obvious) secret shared between Luke and Leia from Han’s perspective, looking in.

Or it could go the opposite route, and have the secret of Luke and Leia’s parentage get out and be a blow to the morale of the Alliance, and be treated with distrust. Perhaps even announced by Vader/The Emperor himself. Our heroes overcome this then in Luke redeeming their father and Leia stepping up in command of the Rebellion in a crisis during the (final) battle, while Han comes to the conclusion that nothing is going to get in the way of him living the life he wants (with Leia) and does another Swag move kiss wrap things up for them, as well as being a bad ass in general (not as a general =P).

And those are just ideas I came up with on the spot, not even necessarily a good one. Point is that it could have been done, and ROTJ would have been better for it.

Bingowings said:

I found the silent movie version of all six films not only made the PT films more than tolerable (rather good in fact) but also tied them into the OT narrative rather well.
I projected them onto the venetian blinds of my bay window and the neighbours stood outside watching them.
http://fanedit.org/ifdb/component/content/article/80-fanedit-listings/fanmix/94-star-wars-30-s-silent-edition-part-1-dusty-version

Thanks for bringing those up Bingo, I haven’t watched them in ages and they’re brilliant!

Agreed. How do they not know about Adywan?

sansuni said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH9RX7emAI0

How about someone who can make a good young James Earl Jones/Darth Vader impression voices Anakin? (it shouldn’t sound exactly like Darth Vader, but it should like a mixture of Sebastian Shaw and James Earl Jones) I think that would bridge the series further.

HIRE HIM!

Really looking forward to when this comes out Ady!
Keep up the great work, and if there is anyway I can help, (with any of the revisited projects) let me know!

That’s why I suggested Hiddleston above, because I reckon he’s got a passable voice for younger Tarkin, if you can mine his dialogue from various roles.
But I’d be interested to hear other people’s thoughts on the voice, I recommend this YouTube clip as a decent sample from him in Out of Darkness