Very true. Although I can accept that it’s just him appearing before Luke in the kind of Desert Garb of Tattooine that both he and Luke grew up with. It would have made more sense though if we saw Anakin as a young man spending time on Tattooine in such clothes (a la when he visited Cleig, Owen, Beru and Shmi).
The Phantom Menace was shot on film.
True, and I should have mentioned that as an exception, but laziness. 😉
The majority of the Prequels were digital though, so by law of averages… 😛
I think I’m okay with Jedi now. But still, it won’t be critically rehabilitated in the near future, and we still won’t have a SW film like Empire.
Here’s how I contrast the similar aspects between ROTJ and The Prequels:
As far as Anakin’s body dematerializing, I like that we don’t see it happen because it leaves it open to interpretation. Perhaps it dematerialized a few seconds after the end of the shot, and you can believe that if you want to. However, there is the fact that Anakin doesn’t just have a cyber suit, it is that much of his body has become mechanical. Would all of his robotic limbs and implants just be rattling around in an empty suit like in the Left Behind series? Seems silly to me.
Perhaps they ARE the suit… But yeah, hope Anakin’s (re)unification with the force doesn’t result in any of those shenanigans. Now let’s not mention, nor even think about, Left Behind again. Ever.
(WHY NICK CAGE, WHYYYY!)
About Han exploiting situation to probe Leia’s emotions for him… I simply meant that he used the fact that he had to go pay Jabba (no, he didn’t make it up), to see how she will react to the possibility that he might not return.
Thanks, that clears your point up. Han was certainly presenting that possibility to her to provoke her (he’s remarkably good at that), I just don’t think it was an entirely idle threat, and that he had his own internal conflict over the decision to stay or not, Leia being a big contributing factor in what decision he finally made. This observation though obviously doesn’t prove Han’s situation as a rebel or not, either way.
Anyway arguing over interpretations is pointless. The fact is that ESB script does not (explicitly) explain/explore Han’s decision at the end of ANH.
I agree, so long as we can agree to disagree 😛. We each have our own understanding, and I accept that yours is possible despite my stated areas of disagreement.
As for ROTJ in terms of Han and Leia, when it comes to a romance in general the most interesting aspect is everything before the love is professed. After the love is professed the entire thing becomes boring from a dramatic/character point of view. ROTJ was left with very little to work with after ESB. It tried to make a little complication with the Luke but the main potential was already used in ESB.
I actually agree here too. In one respect, ROTJ was written into a corner with regards to Han and Leia as a couple. I certainly don;t think the film needed to push any drama between them etc. but in a movie that is primarily about wrapping up the Skywalker story (and redeeming their legacy), I am still somehwat baffled as to why Han and Leia don’t have more interaction with Luke, particularly in light of Leia being revealed as his sister.
Especially as the film was brought to a crawl with the Ewoks.
Which brings me to my problem with them: they are superfluous in my mind to the story. Obviously they are integral to the plot (in a kinda completely coincidental deus ex machina way) and I know that that point has been hashed out to death already, but I hope my take on the deficiency with the writing brings something fresh, if not new, up.
Now sure the idea of a primitive force being able to rise against tyrannical oppressors is nice, but when you already have the central narrative of the trilogy revolving around a small(er) and ill-equipped rebellion rising against tyrannical oppressors you can see how it’s redundant.
Because I hate providing just criticism without context, allow me to proffer another hypothetical:
I’m not saying this would necessarily be better, but it has greater potential in concert with the themes and story at play, and thus perhaps would have been a more powerful a statement (not to mention better for the film’s pacing) than a trip to Ewok village.
Just to be clear this is separate of the conceptual criticism people have levied at the Ewoks and how that effects the tone of the film, I’d still hold this opinion if they were replaced with Wookies for example (a rather common talking point that has been floated around these boards).
Now have it, anyone and everyone, blast my opinion so I may better see how well it holds up. 😄
Well as I said, your whole argument is based on things you made up yourself (your “impression” as you call it) that go against what is actually in the script/film. He joined the rebels. That is crystal clear whether you want to accept it or not. One simply don’t hang up with rebels on an ice planet performing patrols for fun. Hanging around with rebels is not like being in a social club. You don’t simply associate yourself with people who are being perceived by the Empire as worst-than-criminals just to hang around with “friends”.
I was using ‘social gatherings’ analogously in place of ‘dangerous job’ and ‘club/society’ in place of the rebellion. Way to take it out of context, LOL. Although I’d just add since you disparaged it, that some people (not all, evidently) are willing to go to hell and back for their friends.
But on point: Han is already in a shady line of work when we are introduced to him, why would he do that if danger (and crossing the Empire) were a deterrent for him?
So as for his winding up on Hoth, being on bad terms with Jabba as well as the Empire doesn’t leave him many career options open aside from the Rebellion, who are also conveniently for Han, close to hand and owe him a great deal of good will (and leeway) after the whole Death Star thing.
The point of this is not that my interpretation is ‘right’ compared to yours (although it does make the most sense to me which I will elucidate on further in the next paragraph) but it’s that what you have asserted as fact from the script is also but an interpretation of events.
As for your question, there are two very obvious explanations. First, not paying Jabba immediately as promised (especially after given a second chance), makes it a big chance he might not actually get out of his palace alive (despite bringing the money). He kinda made a fool of Jabba with his machinations and gangsters value their reputation.
Now why I think my interpretation makes the most sense I think is rather poignant in light of your responses to Leia and Han’s interaction. Believe it or not I have considered this interpretation already. The problems for me, assuming that Han is a Rebel, are thus:
(A) If Han and Leia’s fighting over his not returning (which they both acknowledge in the script) was because they both thought that Jabba was such a danger to return to and pay off, why would Han even go and do it? Surely he’d be safer just staying with the Rebels full time against the odd bounty hunter, instead of going into the Lion’s Den, so-to-speak. The illogic in that is evident.
(B) It also refers to my earlier point about why some other Alliance members (like even Leia herself, if she’s so worried for specifically Han’s safety) aren’t accompanying him for back-up or to even help negotiate his settlement of Jabba, if Jabba’s retribution is why they think he wouldn’t return.
Secondly, he could simply try to exploit the situation to probe Leia’s emotions for him.
Although would you kindly please explain this further? I’m not sure what you mean by it. That Han is pretending to go pay off Jabba to exploit Leia’s feelings for him? That he is going to pay off Jabba, but is pretending that it’s dangerous and/or that he won’t return to exploit her feelings?
I’m reading into you here, so please correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth, but neither of those actions sound either like the Han Solo I know from the films, or acceptable behaviour from a Rebel officer to a superior, whatever their feelings for each other.
To me, Han’s paying off of Jabba is symbolic in ESB’s story as it would allow him the freedom to not have to rely on the Alliance for employment, and his character conflict is over whether or not he’ll return to the Alliance with that freedom, or return to his old way of life. He seeks validation from Leia as a reason to stay, but Leia refuses to expose her feelings to him until she is certain of which man he’ll be.
When actually faced with the possibility of never seeing him again though, Leia confesses her feelings to him, as Han is symbolically sacrificed for his friends sake (and his final gesture of selflessness is to not resist and put the others in jeopardy, as well as to have Chewie protect Leia in his stead).
Thus, exactly what possibilities are open to Han, and more importantly his choices and reactions upon getting a second chance (again, symbolically) are left for ROTJ to explore, which for my money it didn’t.
That just about covers it, as far as the/my issue with Han’s treatment in ROTJ. As another commenter said, all the arguments along this line of thought have been made; to each their own as far as interpretations are concerned, though I’ve yet to be logically swayed from my case. 😃
*peeks in thread*
*automatically has misanthropic sentiments reinforced*
*develops sudden craving for alcohol*
*leaves*
*promises never to return*
*knows that promise will be inevitably broken*
*goes into a corner to cry*
Alcohol is the path to the dark side. Booze leads to hang over, hang over leads to regret, regret leads to drinking (more booze). I sense much alcohol in you… (although that could just be the alcohol on me talking…) 😉
Sweet, that’s a good assortment of building blocks to work with.
If you’re inspired by the (early) post-ROTJ legends EU, does that mean I can leach Mara into this tale somewhere? 😉
I have some ideas for an outline with those concepts; I’ll put it all together in my next reply.
Why are you getting upset by such a trivial thing, which is entirely based on even more trivial thing such as your opinion? Just stay clam and wait for the global warming to destroy Earth.
It won’t be much longer, what with all the hot heads in this thread. Me particularly. 😛
How many posts are left until we get to which Star Wars characters could beat up which other Star Wars characters, or did we already get there?
Boba Fett beats everyone. Have you not played Battlefront 3? 😉
I guess you refer to:
“I thought you’d decided to stay”
“Well that bounty hunter on Ord Mantell changed my mind”
I was referring not just to those two lines, but my two quotes; I also quoted the scene between Leia and Han in Bespin.
These two lines do absolutely nothing to explore why he decided to join them at the end of ANH (my main point of the question).
Is that what we’re debating now? I was under the impression that my point was that Han didn’t decide to join the Rebels after ANH. Why would I go looking for evidence that I didn’t take away from the movies to counter my own opinion?
But Just to be clear (again): at the end of ANH Han came back for Luke (and Leia) who he’d become friends with over the course of their adventure. That was established pretty well in the movie, I thought. My one assumption, to connect the dots between ANH and Han’s lack of commitment to the Rebellion full time in ESB is that he’s hanging around for his friends and the steady work the Alliance gives him, while their constant evading of the Empire has prevented Han from being close enough to Tattooine to go pay off Jabba.
To use an analogy, he’s hanging around with his friends and goes to some of the same parties they do, but hasn’t joined their club(/fraternity).
And it does not imply he was in any way conflicted about committing either. It simply means he had to go pay Jabba or “he is a dead man” as he himself clearly explains the reason. Even if for some strange reason you ignore the clear reason given by Solo and still think it was because he was conflicted about committing, then where does the script explain/explore his actual reasons for “conflict”?
First, also see the above reference to the Bespin scene.
Secondly, as for how this explores his ‘reasons for conflict’; Han is established as a cynical and self-serving character. The referred to run in with the Bounty Hunter on Ord Mantell demonstrates that he is selfishly worried about his own hide, while also being attached to Luke and Leia.
Right there is conflict.
Now you can read more deeply into this through the language of cinema, like the juxtaposition of his character (the oft selfish scoundrel) and Lando’s (who is a ‘responsible’ leader of Cloud City) for example, but the most explicitly stated basis is portrayed through his relationship with Leia, and friendship with Luke, vs his own self-interests.
All this aside though, no one I’ve asked yet has explained how Han is simultaneously a committed Rebel already in Empire and how Leia is so concerned about him leaving and not coming back (and why Han doesn’t assert the opposite when challenged). Please, reconcile those two things for me in Empire, and as I said before, I’ll retract my criticism of ROTJ’s treatment of Han’s character (and confer it on ESB).
IIRC, Harrison wasn’t under contract for a sequel at the point in time Splinter of The Mind’s Eye was being considered as the economical “plan b” approach for the next film.
That is what’s said of it in The Secret History of Star Wars. It’s certainly what I think happened. SO I’m pretty sure you’re right SilverWook.
Well I was asking for something that is actually in the script. Not something that you made up with your imagination. Because for me (or someone else), that aspect is completely unexplored by ESB.
I quoted Leia and Han in ESB twice! What more do you want for “in the script” if that does not count?! 😮
And just to head you off, in that specific paragraph response I was referring to my earlier responses with those very quotations. I’m sorry that I don’t quote my every comment (or the entire thread for that matter) in each reply. I see little point in repeating myself when you can just click back a page and read it all.
Actual quotes I only use for context for a specific reply or rebuttal, to save cluttering up the thread. But that’s just a matter of etiquette I’ve learnt in using such forums as these.
Shouldn’t Bob Anderson be included in that list?
I did 😄
For shame, I was mistaken! I completely forgot about Anderson continuing to do Vader’s fencing scenes in ROTJ. 😮
Yes, and they’re a way to artificially make Anakin seem special.
how does make him worse than he already is? it doesn’t seem like that a big deal to me.
It doesn’t so much make the character worse as make the story worse. It’s a cheap device McGuffin to propel him into the story that has no basis or pay off (in the films). Put a bad character together with a lazy story device, rather than writing even an excuse of a character motivation for them, doubly sucks for the film over all.
As per Internet protocol: read first post of this thread. Then Google if answer is not fully satisfied. Don’t just jump in asking for a link.
^This. Also: Fanedit.info
One further question: are we taking ANH and ESB as rote, from which your trilogy of stories follows on?
Or are you rewriting them as well as ROTJ?
The Rebellion offers a sense of family, (there is also safety in numbers) and it’s better than going back to smuggling drugs for a giant slug? 😉
I certainly agree, but this was the very thing Han struggled with through ESB. At the end of which he was frozen in carbonite. This also does not explain why Leia was reacting to Han leaving the way she did (and the way he responded) if he had already accepted being a Rebel in the film.
So while Han certainly comes to that realization, as evidenced by him as a Rebel General ROTJ, the film skips over any scene where he actually acts upon this; the [natural] resolution to his arc in this respect.
The deleted sandstorm scene actually serves this purpose better than nothing (and the comm call of him thanking Luke). If they’d paced the over all film better (such that it didn’t drag in Jabba’s Palace sequence and at the Ewok village) I think it would have made a better addition to the film.
But that’s just my opinion, again.
Here’s another topic to provoke discussion: I personally think the entire Ewok plot line is superfluous to the story (though I have no real problem with the Ewoks themselves; they could have been Wookies and still the issue be the same).
Queue drum roll and my follow-up line of reasoning; I’m about to get a bunch more strongly worded disagreements. 😉
Whoosh!
This editor uses Markdown syntax, which makes it easy to add formatting like italics, bold, and lists:
Markdown syndrome me, indeed… 😛
Off screen explanations aside, the amount of time between SW and ESB is a little hazy. The Rebellion has probably been on the run most of that time. (They haven’t been on Hoth long enough to know about Wampas for example.) Whatever missions Has has done for them, hasn’t taken him close enough to Tatooine to drop off the cash.
As I said before, I’m perfectly willing to buy that, it makes sense if the time Frame hasn’t been that long, that paying off Jabba has never been an option for Han yet prior to Hoth, or even that the time just got away from him. These however are only justifications for him not paying off Jabba, and not for him being a committed rebel in ESB in spite of the contradiction in that and how Leia (in particular) reacts to him (among others).
I’ve still yet to see even a probable explanation that resolves this with Han being committed to the Alliance in Empire, and thus justifiably taking the onus for completing his arc off of ROTJ.
You haven’t actually answered my main question. Why didn’t ESB already explore Han’s decision to join the rebellion at the end of ANH? Even if he still had any doubts at the time of ESB (which you seem to be the only person to see them), why didn’t ESB directly explore them? ESB was the proper occasion to do either of those things.
I wasn’t aware that I had failed to answer this question, I thought it was pretty darn obvious that Empire did explore that aspect of Han’s character, and that I had pointed that out, particularly with the afore mentioned quotes and examples.
To clear up any doubt, I am under the impression that ESB did show Han’s character riding the line of committing or not and the conflict which results; quite brilliantly too.
Han and Leia’s arguments revolve around whether nor not he should become a rebel leader, their feelings a subtext with in this, and whether Han will commit to their relationship an allegory for his committing to a higher purpose (ergo the rebellion).
I guess passing the blame to ROTJ is more convenient? You were picking on ROTJ for not exploring something as trivial and technical as getting some rank, while forgiving ESB for not exploring something as major and character-changing as his decision to join the rebels at the end of ANH.
I was not picking on Han holding the rank of General specifically in ROTJ, I also thought I made this clear, but rather the lack of character development leading to that point. When I watch ESB I always come away seeing Han as conflicted about whether or not to commit, be that to the Rebellion, Leia and even just to paying off Jabba.
As I said to SilverWook:
For the life of me, I can’t reconcile this story with Han already being a committed member of the Rebel Alliance, post ANH. If you, or anyone can explain it to me, I’ll retract my disappointment with ROTJ over Han’s lacking development and instead transfer that flaw to ESB where you are making the case it is.
And to my mind, ROTJ never took up those threads for Han and demonstrate him coming to make that commitment (and any friction in doing so), which I felt would have been the natural conclusion to his arc.
Han’s reward is pretty bulky based on this scene…
The Rebellion is pretty much in “hiding out” mode. (And they’re probably far from the well traveled areas of the galaxy.) They may simply not be able to spare a ship to send money to Jabba, and I doubt just anyone can get in to see him.There is also probably no paypal in a Galaxy Far Far Away. 😉
You know, there really ought to be some kind of Smugglers Union card. Would make the business of all those nasty bounty pay offs so much easier. Jabba gets his profit, Han gets his life, Boba can disintegrate who he likes - EVERYONE WINS! 😛
Seriously though, those points are fair enough but still do not explain why the Rebels wouldn’t send an escort with a valued committed compatriot (who they expect to return) and get the crime lord out of the way, nor the afore mentioned dialogue between Leia and Han on Hoth, or later on Bespin:
“…Besides, we’ll soon be gone.”
“Then you’re as good as gone, aren’t you?”
[Han hangs his head]
For the life of me, I can’t reconcile this story with Han already being a committed member of the Rebel Alliance, post ANH. If you, or anyone can explain it to me, I’ll retract my disappointment with ROTJ over Han’s lacking development and instead transfer that flaw to ESB where you are making the case it is.
LOL I learned how to do it in about a day. Compared to video editing, Markdown’s a cinch! … Or am I just suffering from Markdown syndrome?
He still owes Jabba money, which means a long line of bounty hunters trying to collect the price on his head no matter where you go. There’s something to be said for reducing the number of people actively trying to kill you personally.
I don’t disagree, but then if he was a committed Rebel, why:
A) aren’t some of the Rebels contacts willing/able to pass on his payment of debt to Jabba while he continues to serve them, especially if he’s so valuable to the cause; or,
B) are the Rebels not at least sending some back-up or company with him considering how much they owe him after Yavin (Luke would be more than willing to name one); or
C) is Leia treating it like she might probably will not see him again (for some time) if he leaves;
…if he actually is a committed member of the Alliance.
None of these, Leia most notably, and the afore mentioned interactions with the Rebels make sense taken all together, to me, assuming Han is a committed Alliance member at the start of ESB.
It makes sense to me that Han would need to go and pay off Jabba solo, if he is still riding the line between committing to a higher purpose and his cynicism, still relying entirely on himself and not opening up to his friends. His relationship with Leia is both a metaphor for and the driving force of this balancing act.
Which has a fantastic pay off at the end of Empire, and in my mind is rounded out partially in Luke and Leia rescuing him in ROTJ but is never fully resolved, disappointingly because he has so little to do in the ROTJ screenplay as it stands, when all is said and done.
Your arguments really don’t have much to do with our character-wise discussion.
Yes and no. They are my observations of and justification for how I interpret the present nature of his character, and thus why I think he still has an arc to (potentially) be fleshed out in ROTJ.
So the fact that he decided to stay with the rebels and help the cause makes him a full-time rebel. We know it wasn’t about the money otherwise he would be on his way to the beach with all the money while Luke was shot down by Vader in ANH. Instead he took completely unnecessary risk and joined the battle. The reason to decide to pay off Jabba is only logical as practically no one is safe when being hunted by galaxy’s best bounty hunters. So why don’t you instead complain about why ESB did not explain his very personal decision at the end of ANH? Why would ROTJ have to explain something completely technical as getting some rank.
He came back for Luke in ANH (to a lesser extent Leia at that time). He didn’t want risk leaving them to be killed. I agree he wasn’t all about the money.
Which of course begs the question of why he’s decided to leave then from the rebels if he’s already a full time committed member. If he’s willing to risk his life fighting with them full time, and has been doing so, why does one run in with a bounty hunter make him change his mind?
“I thought you’d decided to stay”
“Well that bounty hunter on Ord Mantell changed my mind”
This to me suggests that he’s at least in two minds about being a rebel, and that he’s not fully committed to the cause; his friends, yes, but their ideals, no. Thus it seems that he’s always prepared to strike out on his own again, and perhaps does not operate solely with the rebels as a team (which would surely be protection enough from any bounty hunter).
After all, not even Boba Fett came off best after a run in with a small group of rebels. 😉
But as SilverWook pointed out, there is certainly a justification for interpreting this differently, my observations are my own, and they are the impression I get every time I watch ESB (Which I did again last night 😄).
