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Barfolomew

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Post
#1576136
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

Gandalf the Cyan said:

According to the “Icons Unearthed” documentary, Lucas came up with the “Vader is Luke’s father” idea before Brackett’s draft was written, which is interesting. I assume that for whatever reason, he didn’t tell her—maybe the idea hadn’t been 100% finalized by that point? Though I haven’t actually seen the documentary (I’m just going off what I’ve heard from others), so although it’s clear that he had come up with the twist before Brackett’s script, I don’t know how finalized the idea was. I suppose it’s also possible that Brackett knew about the twist but ignored it, but it doesn’t seem likely that she’d ignore such a major plot point.

The more I hear about this “Icons Unearthed” show the more I want to see it. I believe that’s the one where Marcia Lucas recalls a cheeky anecdote that George might have gotten the idea for Darth Vader being Luke’s father from a joke made by Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom writers Willard Huyck Gloria Katz.

The thing that sticks out to me about that story, though, is that she said Lucas was trying to come up with a twist, and what interests me about that is I’ve had a suspicion for a while now that at some point in writing Star Wars - some time after the moment he “split the story in half” and before he condensed back into one film again - that Darth Vader killed Luke’s father was going to be a major revelation (and I think this might’ve been the origin for the title “Revenge of the Jedi”).

If I’m right about that, it could mean the decision to make Darth Vader Luke’s father was not only so he could reintroduce the “cyborg father’s noble sacrifice” plot point from earlier drafts, but also because with the first film he’d ended up blowing what would have been a great dramatic moment if he’d known he’d have the opportunity to use it, and he was motivated to find something to replace it.

Anyhow, what the show apparently says about Brackett jibes with what we know of what Lucas told her about Darth Vader (sorry I know this is like the third time I’ve posted this):

Darth Vader's prime purpose

He says more or less explicitly that there’s more to Vader than he’s telling her (saving it for the next film, apparently). Whether it’s “he’s Luke’s father” or “he’s going to turn good” or something else at that point we can’t say.

And yeah, he definitely didn’t do Brackett any favors by withholding whatever his plans at that moment were, because I think the biggest weakness of Brackett’s draft as a story (so aside from not really getting the feel of Star Wars right) is that she’s clearly having trouble getting a handle on Darth Vader as a character, struggling to find a throughline for his various motivations. What she seems to settle on is that Vader is insecure - first he’s obsessed with killing Luke because Luke’s victory over the Death Star humiliated him; then he wants to to turn Luke to his side because he’s tired of being afraid of the Emperor.

I think what Brackett is missing, what she needed to hear from Lucas, is that it’s Luke himself that has awakened a tiny part of Vader’s dormant humanity. This is {his son/ the last living remnant of the old friend he betrayed}, he must meet this boy, the soul he didn’t realize he still had demands it.

Post
#1576132
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

Channel72 said:
But the point is, later movies reveal that Brackett really nailed Lucas’ ideas about how the Dark Side works, and how one can fall to the Dark Side via embracing anger. And I think this was lost in later drafts of ESB. Vader has a few lines about “giving in to hatred” while fighting Luke on Bespin, but it’s all sort of deflated once Vader reveals he never actually wronged Luke (by killing his father), and in fact, actually IS his father. It also lessens the stakes during the final battle in ROTJ, because there’s much less the Emperor has to work with to make Luke turn evil. Still, I think it was worth it - because the twist in ESB is just too awesome to leave on the cutting floor.

Haha, this reminds me me how even as a kid I’ve always felt the weird paradox of the Emperor’s whole spiel “don’t you just HATE me? I’m really PISSING you off, aren’t I? Good! Now, JOIN me!” If that were me, it would make me want to reject him all the more, just out of spite.

I actually don’t think channeling one’s hatred is meant to be the only approach to turning to the dark side, it’s just the one the Emperor seems to think will be most effective on Luke given the circumstances in ROTJ (and for whatever it’s worth - I know Lucas made lots of last minute changes - it’s not really how we eventually see Anakin fall in ROTS). The “dark side” of the force is that its power is intoxicating, and if you’re not a trained, disciplined professional you’re liable to become hopelessly addicted to using it for your own selfish interests (note that the movies never mention a “light side” of the force - the “dark side” is simply the force being abused). Luke is too loyal to his friends and too far along in his training to give in to persuasion, so the Emperor opts to make him feel a direct dose of its sweet, sweet power, and he fully expects Luke to be hooked and that his need for another hit (and another, and another) will override all his allegiances (“Your hate has made you powerful”).

In both the Brackett draft and the finished ESB Vader actually comes at Luke from multiple angles, at certain points even appealing to Luke’s altruism (the Brackett draft: “The Emperor is a harsh master. YOU would not be.” The film: “Together we can END this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!”). For most of the duel in the film Vader appears to be praying on Luke’s fear, desperation, and hopelessness: demonstrating how helplessly outmatched Luke is (“You are beaten. It is useless to resist.”), cutting off any alternative ("There is no escape. Don’t make me destroy you," “It is the only way.”), and finally revealing that even Luke’s precious heroic father couldn’t resist, and Vader should know, because “I am your father!” And then sweetening the deal: “You can destroy the Emperor,” “Together we can rule the galaxy,” and making it seem inevitable and what he’s essentially supposed to be doing anyway: “He has foreseen this. It is your destiny.” Frankly, between the Emperor and Darth Vader’s two sales pitches, I find Vader’s more convincing!

From a story standpoint, it does seem a bit of a missed opportunity not to be able to more fully exploit the idea of Vader having killed Luke’s father, but I also sort of like the implication that Luke might’ve come prepared for this line of attack (especially taking into account Mark Hamill’s performance): “Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.” “He told me enough!” (ie. “I already know, so if you’re trying to shock me, forget it.”) “He told me YOU killed him.” (The emphasis on “YOU” says to me, “Taunt me about it all you like, asshole, in the end YOU did it and therefore I won’t ever be on YOUR side.”)

Post
#1575773
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

Channel72 said:
My point is just that the final script contains vestigial traces of changing motivations and relationships from earlier drafts throughout the writing process, revealing a more muddled story, rather than the straightforward story we all have in our heads, where Vader wants Luke for his own secret purpose and is not aligned with the Emperor on this issue from the very beginning of the movie. If the ending twist had existed since the very first drafts, the whole Hoth sequence would probably be written differently
Channel72 said:
but I find the topic interesting because it’s a window into the evolving story behind the scenes.

I took some time to think before responding because there’s been a broader point on my mind that I couldn’t quite put my finger on during our debates over relative minutiae, and I didn’t want to keep arguing about trees when it’s the forest that’s really nagging at me.

I think it’s that I’m wary of us assigning too much authority to Leigh Brackett’s draft as The State of The Star Wars Storyline Circa 1978, which is something I think fans have been doing since even before it got put on the web. There’s a tendency to regard the Brackett draft as “the way it was going to be” and that subsequent drafts sort of retroactively applied changes to its baseline, rather than it being an interpretation of Lucas’s storyline that he rejected because it got it all wrong. Like I’m pretty sure after she died Lucas put her draft in a drawer and never consulted it again, by all accounts when he got on the script himself it was a page one rewrite.

I think I was reflexively pushing back against what I perceived was tacit acceptance of the Brackett draft’s depictions and the notion that subsequent drafts were a retcon, when I feel pretty strongly from the available material that Brackett’s draft reflected a misunderstanding of Lucas’s intentions and that his subsequent drafts were a correction.

This is all actually sort of beside the point you were trying to make - even assuming I’m right, it’s certainly still possible that just having her draft fresh in his mind could subconsciously influence how Lucas set up certain scenes, misunderstanding or not. And while I still don’t personally see any real issue with the story’s integrity in the finished film, it’s probably good that I realize what the bush I was beating around actually was before I let it drag me into any more pedantic arguments, lol!

Post
#1569652
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

First off, I must say it’s amusing and interesting how much mileage we’ve gotten out of the words “orbital bombardment” from a single line! But I think we’ve come to a mutual understanding of sorts, we more or less agree:

  • Certainly Leigh Brackett, at the least, wrote murderous intent into Darth Vader in the first half of her draft.
  • Subsequent drafts show an evolution playing this aspect down.
  • By the final script they’ve got it to a point where for many viewers (like me!) they’ve successfully rid the script of any overt murderous motivation…
  • But Lucas and Kasdan have perhaps underestimated that many other viewers (like you!) may still take the term “orbital bombardment” to specifically reference a plan of guaranteed eradication of the rebels, including Luke.
  • I think we agree that even if we go with the most uncharitable read of this scene, it’s at worst a very minor flaw in a masterpiece of genre cinema.

Works for me!

While thinking about all this, something did occur to me, though:

Channel72 said:
But I guess we just have a difference of opinion in how well they did this. I always thought Vader wanted an orbital bombardment, even before the Internet existed and I had access to earlier drafts. So it seems the earlier, original intentions of the writers have leaked into the final script.

That last sentence there got me thinking: we got on this semi-tangent in the first place due to a not-unreasonable presumption that dialing back Vader’s desire to kill Luke on Hoth in Brackett’s draft must have been done to accommodate the twist that Vader is Luke’s father.

Except now that I think about it, I don’t think we can just take that for granted at all. Here’s what Lucas told Brackett again:

Barfolomew said:
Darth Vader's prime purpose

  1. Deep down Darth Vader is still conflicted with being evil.
  2. Vader has a personal agenda to “get” Luke that transcends even victory over the rebellion.

The conclusion I came to in my earlier posts in this thread was that Lucas planned Empire/Jedi to basically retell Star Wars as the two-parter he’d envisioned at one point, and for them to cover as much material that he couldn’t fit into the first film as they could, and his desire for that to include “the cyborg father’s heroic death” is what ultimately inspired Lucas to bring the Father back by merging that plot point with “the black knight villain turns against the empire.”

By all accounts at that conference between Lucas and Brackett Vader was not Luke’s father, either because Lucas hadn’t thought of it at all (per fan theory) or it was something Lucas was considering but hadn’t yet pulled the trigger on (claims Lucas). And yet Vader’s character profile above isn’t really any different (though it would’ve been helpful if Lucas was more specific than “get Luke”) and the overall plot is hardly any different, either; and even at that early stage it appears the “go back and do that two-parter” plan was a go.

Basically what I’m saying is that there’s no reason at all this story wasn’t still heading toward Vader’s redemption regardless. Certainly it majorly effects the backstory, but the general sequence of events in ROTJ’s plot don’t have to be overwritten from what we know. You’d only have to make adjustments in motivations, something like Luke’s existence profoundly triggering the remorse Vader still feels for betraying Anakin Skywalker (or whatever Skywalker Sr’s name would’ve ended up being).

This probably occurred to many other people long ago (I’m aware there’s a whole other thread devoted to this specific “what if,” lol), but somehow I’d always taken it for granted that if Vader remained a separate character from Skywalker Sr. then the plot would’ve had to have taken a much different direction, but the more I think about it, the plots for both ESB and ROTJ don’t actually have to change much at all.

Post
#1568350
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

Channel72 said:

Sure, I could be overstating the case here. The main issue is we know that the script was originally written with Vader not being Luke’s father, and very explicitly trying to kill Luke on Hoth. Later, during subsequent rewrites, Vader was turned into Luke’s father, but he still seems to want to kill Luke on Hoth. It’s pretty hard to interpret the dialogue between Vader and Piett any other way than that Vader had planned on killing all the rebels via orbital bombardment, and only resorted to a ground invasion because of the shield. I guess you’re right that the dialogue leaves some wiggle room here, but not much in my opinion. (I mean the entire first movie was about blowing up a secret rebel base from orbit - so the audience would naturally assume the same idea in ESB.)

It’s valid to have these assumptions/expectations, but similar to what you’ve said, the whole function of these context-redefining plot twists is to throw our assumptions on their head. We the audience are obligated to see events in this new light so long as there’s any room to do so (I suppose our argument is over just how much room there is).

Consider - I never had the impression that Vader’s plan was to just blow the base up. Before they’re even on their way to Hoth, Vader specifically tells General Veers (General being an army or marine rank) “prepare your men,” which right off the bat has me envisioning an occupation. Later, Veers brings up a hypothetical “orbital bombardment” unprompted, in the context of the shield’s strength - his message is “Hey, the Rebels already have a big ass shield up and it’s REALLY strong, we won’t be able to battering ram our way through it.” And finally, when they actually do bring the shield down, Vader follows up by landing there himself. True, circumstances have changed by that point, but it feels incongruous if the ultimate goal was to simply wipe the base out.

(Also, this might just be me, but it’s a space opera convention that space weapons are flashy but puny, in order to facilitate lengthy and spectacular pew-pew battle scenes, so I tend not to presume anyone can just nuke-the-site-from-orbit-it’s-the-only-way-to-be-sure unless they specifically tell us, even if logically you’d think they should be able to!)

Post
#1568155
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

Channel72 said:
Even if Lucas was toying with the idea of “Father Vader” before Brackett wrote her draft, the idea was still sort of clumsily forced into the script, giving the impression of a “last minute rewrite”. The fact that Vader apparently is okay with KILLING Luke at the beginning of ESB is a vestigial remnant of the original script, where Vader very much explicitly really did want to murder Luke: there’s a scene where Vader tries to force choke Luke to death as Luke escapes Hoth in his X-wing. This early motivation partially carries over into the final draft, when Vader orders the orbital bombardment; Vader’s actions were never properly updated to reflect the later revelation at the end.

TLDR:

The original arc for Vader’s motivation was: “(1) Find and kill Luke, (2) Change of plans: capture and convert Luke to appease the Emperor”

The UPDATED motivation in later drafts was: “(1) Find and kill Luke, (2) Change of plans: capture and convert Luke because Luke is his SON, and can be used to overthrow the Emperor.”

But in everyone’s head-canon, the motivation is more like “(1) Discovers Luke is his son, but hides this from the Emperor, (2) tries to capture Luke to overthrow the Emperor”

The head-canon version at some point became ACTUAL canon via some Boba Fett comics. The head-canon version also makes the most sense given the “big reveal” at the end of ESB, as well as the wider context of Star Wars lore. But the head-canon version just is NOT supported by the first act of the actual movie.

I really do appreciate all the thought you’ve put into this so I hope I don’t come off flippant at all, but I think your concerns over the plot’s integrity stem pretty much entirely from an assumption that Vader for sure would have order the “orbital bombardment” and that this would entail the instantaneous extermination of the rebel base and its entire population. General Veers simply informs Vader that the Rebels have a shield up strong enough to deflect anything their ships can throw at it, and Vader is perturbed that this means the Rebels already know they’re in town. We don’t actually know what Vader would’ve done otherwise or if the rebels had any other defenses against being fired on from space. (if there’s a script weakness to this scene, it’s more that you can just feel the plot contriving itself to accommodate its spectacular land battle sequence, but would we have it any other way?).

As far as the Hoth battle itself putting Luke’s life into potential jeopardy, I also get the sense that Vader and The Emperor don’t believe Luke can be taken out randomly in battle. To them he’s a mysterious phantom youngster who inexplicably showed up out of nowhere and blew up their Death Star, he’s caused a “great disturbance in the Force,” etc. They know if he is to be dealt with, they have to go out of their way to do it themselves.

Post
#1542347
Topic
The Sequel Trilogy... in 1985
Time

I vote Esai Morales for Poe.

Laurence Fishburne for Finn.

Tom Cruise as Kylo (seriously just cut and paste him from ‘Legend’)

Sean Young as Rey in Force Awakens, but the rest of the cast and crew feel she is too “intense” and makes them feel uncomfortable, so they recast her with Jamie Gertz afterwards.

I can honestly see them just putting Hammil, Fisher, and Ford in old age makeup

Post
#1542205
Topic
A New Hope as a Stand-alone Movie
Time

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:
Of course the movie certainly does leave the door open for sequels, which is clearly the intent given the 12-film saga idea and Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, but the original film itself does not necessitate a follow up.

What we’re all intuiting is that Star Wars is a tribute to sci-fi adventure serials (among other things), so even as a standalone movie it’s still trying to feel like it’s setting up the status quo for a series of episodic tales starring this ensemble of characters (that we will more than likely never see). The downfall of the Empire and Luke’s rise as a Jedi knight are inevitable, but it still implies that until then these folks are gonna go on a series of fabulous adventures. It’s built into the “happily ever after.”

It’s important to remember the first Star Wars was a postmodern film, the central gag being “we don’t make movies like this anymore, but LOL what if we did?!” All these somewhat dangly threads are all part of the joke. Darth Vader riding off in his TIE fighter is like Dr. Claw shaking his fist proclaiming “I’ll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!” We don’t actually need to see any more because we already have seen it pretty much: even if they continue from each other, we know they’re all going to follow this same formula just like the serials of old. (It’s actually quite a bit like how Spaceballs tells us about its non-existant sequel “Spaceballs II: The Search For More Money”).

It’s not until Empire that the series becomes earnest (that it fully reconstructs the space opera rather than simply celebrate it is Empire’s great triumph, though I’ll wager it’s exactly what Lucas doesn’t like about it going by his “they made it too good” remark).

Channel72 said:
The earliest known drafts of Star Wars, which are significantly different from the 1977 film, still follow the same basic story structure and end with all major plot threads resolved.

I’m sure you already know this, but I thought I’d just clarify a bit for posterity’s sake (like I did in the “Random Musings about the Empire Draft” thread), a couple drafts in Lucas took the story and “broke it in half” and the next few drafts were pretty obviously two-parters (I think it’s often assumed it eventually became thirds, hence the trilogy, but I’m not actually sure if that’s so during the scripting phase). Finally Lucas decided to “steal” the ending of the second part and used it for the first part (the battle with the Death Star), essentially reverting it to standalone status but leaving at least a whole extra movie’s worth of material floating out there.

Post
#1542187
Topic
Star Wars vs. A New Hope - Which do you say and why?
Time

For both the original trilogy and the sequel trilogy I use the title (well, except the first, which I just call “Star Wars”) while the prequel trilogy I use “Episode _”. I might also prefix “Star Wars” to the sequels if I’m bringing it up out of context.

And that’s not really a conscious decision on my part, it’s more that, frankly, that’s what they’re called. Well, technically the prequels had the whole “Star Wars: Episode _ - The Rest of the Name,” but you look at the logos with EPISODE BLANK in huge text and the rest all tiny, it’s clear what the “main” title is, while the rest is relegated to subtitles (and I do recall most people referring to them as “Episode _” or sometimes “Star Wars Episode _” in conversation, with the exception of certain Star Wars fans when talking to each other).

I’m a little skeptical of the idea that they ever REALLY changed the names of any of these movies. Like, if we were to go look them up in national film registries or whatever, they’d all have their original titles and I doubt the stakeholders would actually want to change them. I think they have a “marketing title” that is fluid with the times (note in the years the sequel trilogy was in its various theater runs the prior films all retroactively became “Star Wars: The Name of the Movie” to match, eliminating the “Episode _”; nowadays it seems a bit more loosey-goosey), but the release title is sort of the “primary key” of sorts.

I’m probably not describing anything us long-term fans don’t already know, but I’m pretty sure these are still the ULTRA OFFICIAL IF YOU WANNA GET REALLY TECHNICAL ABOUT IT titles of the movies:

Star Wars
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace
Star Wars: Episode II – Attack of the Clones
Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith
Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

Post
#1541753
Topic
<strong>Return Of The Jedi</strong> - a general <strong>Random Thoughts</strong> thread
Time

Emre1601 said:

An article on the crowd reaction in the movie theater watching the end of Return Of The Jedi back in 1983:

Star Wars fans scream for Darth Vader twist in 1983 reaction video” at the Digital Fix
 

The video:

Darth Vader’s Redemption - Cinema Reaction (1983)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhHn6oD-B7M : a 2 minute video at Clavis YouTube channel.
 

I found it interesting to see, but if I were in the movie theater I would have gone back to a later viewing to try and watch the ending in more quiet surroundings!

Sorry to say but that’s 100% fake. The crowd noises are memes and clips from other movies. I’m a bit stunned that a site that seems to take itself as seriously as that one appears to fell for it.

Post
#1541749
Topic
<strong>Return Of The Jedi</strong> - a general <strong>Random Thoughts</strong> thread
Time

Channel72 said:
There is a very strange, almost serendipitous scene in Empire Strikes Back that has always fascinated me. It happens after the scene where Chewie flips out and starts attacking Storm Troopers just before Han is about to be lowered into the carbon-freezing pit. Han intervenes and tries to calm Chewie down before things get out of control. While this is happening, Boba Fett aims his blaster at Chewie, but then Vader stops him from firing by pushing down the barrel of his blaster. Then - there’s this weird shot of Leia just staring at Vader for a few seconds. This is followed by a shot of Vader, seemingly staring back at her (although we can’t tell for sure because of his mask). Leia then walks over to Chewie and starts trying to calm him down. It’s the strangest thing, as if Leia and Vader instinctually exchanged some non-verbal agreement to prevent the situation from escalating further.

This moment had always intrigued me, too, especially since it’s underscored with a very ominous instance of the Imperial March that gives the impression This Means Something. I think I’ve more or less put it together thanks to the transcript of Irvin Kershner blocking that scene out from Alan Arnold’s Once Upon a Galaxy: A Journal of the Making of The Empire Strikes Back. (Excerpt: https://phantastiqa.com/unscripted-how-the-famous-i-love-you-i-know-scene-really-came-together/)

From that we can see: (a) Kershner wanted to make it clear the reason Chewie and Leia are brought there in the first place is so Han will “behave” and (b) Kershner and Fisher had great difficulty figuring out what Leia should be doing exactly before they take Han in to be frozen (at one point Fisher suggests she slaps Lando - and then she actually does it!).

I think Leia’s glare at Vader is meant to handle both those things. She’s realizing that Darth Vader knew Han wouldn’t cause trouble while she (she especially) and Chewie are there and that’s why they’ve been brought there in the first place.

I think it gets even cooler if you read into it further (and the scene makes it very easy to do so): Leia realizes Darth Vader knows Han Solo loves her. Like, he can sense it with the force and shit. And it confirms for her that Han isn’t just attracted to her or just “really really like” her, he’s seriously, genuinely, deeply in love with her. And I think here is where she goes from “attracted/ really really like” Han to being in seriously capital-L love with him herself, and admits it to him. And his “I know” response doesn’t bother her, because she also knows he loves her, too.

Post
#1541744
Topic
<strong>Return Of The Jedi</strong> - a general <strong>Random Thoughts</strong> thread
Time

Channel72 said:
Also, Leia seemingly has no reaction to the fact that this implies Vader is also her father. (Luke tells her Vader is his father in the same scene.) Maybe her reaction is delayed or she doesn’t immediately make the connection. She’s upset a few minutes later after Luke leaves, when Han comes by. But it’s implied she’s upset mostly because Luke had to leave.

When Leia makes her aghast “Your father!” I always imagine her thinking, “Boy am I glad Darth Vader isn’t MY father! I can’t even imagine…!”

Post
#1541601
Topic
25 Years of the Special Edition
Time

https://youtu.be/IhrTfi_XziA

“Star Wars Special Edition” for me will always be an event first and foremost. They’ve long since stopped calling it that so for me the ongoing alterations are almost a separate matter that just happened to start here. It wasn’t until a few years later when a box set with all the alterations simply going by “Star Wars” did I realize they were trying to make this a permanent thing.

But when I hear “Star Wars Special Edition” I remember not only finally being to see the movies on the big screen, it brought the entire magic of big enthusiastic crowds and pop culture saturation along with it.

Post
#1541387
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

Channel72 said:
But on the other hand, there is some evidence that Lucas actually decided that Vader was Luke’s father even before Leigh Brackett wrote the first draft. Kaminski points out how ridiculous this claim seems, because it means Lucas purposely withheld vital story information from Brackett, even while paying her to write the script (presumably out of paranoia of leaking the twist). And yeah, this does seem kind of ridiculous - but maybe it’s more like Lucas was just indecisive about the idea.

I’m thinking he hadn’t decided yet, as we have multiple accounts about Lucas taking his time to mull over where exactly he wanted to go with the character. The thing is, as far as Empire goes, whether the twist is there or not is just a matter of a few lines in a couple scenes near the end. All the real details about Darth’s past are handled in the third film. In their story conference they went over Darth Vader’s motivations and he even gave Brackett a treatment to work off of. I don’t think he wasn’t counting on her bringing in the ghost of Skywalker Sr, that seemed to be something she added on her own.

Darth Vader's prime purpose

Post
#1541383
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

NeverarGreat said:
Could the words ‘Father changes into Darth Vader’ be a reference to a Force vision, much like Luke’s Dagobah Cave experience? In the finished film Luke defeats Vader and his face turns into Luke’s face, but perhaps there was a version where Luke’s father appears to him in a dream or vision but then changes into Vader to represent the revenge that Luke feels that he needs to take.

I suggest this alternate explanation merely because if I suddenly had the idea to combine the two characters, I would simply write ‘Father is Darth Vader’, or ‘Father changed to Darth Vader’. It’s very strange to use the present form of the word ‘changes’ since it suggests something which happens within the film, rather than being a revelation of an unchanging fact.

A couple things immediately apparent with these notes are that they’re pretty much stream-of-consciousness, and they’re not just for Empire in particular but the entire saga (oh, and George Lucas has absolutely terrible handwriting, lol). The whole thing is in present tense and is almost the kind of thing you’d write on a napkin.

I’d emailed J.W. Rinzler a couple years back (this turned out to be mere months before he passed away - RIP) to get some clarification on these notes. Rinzler confirmed again they were undated and it’s possible they could’ve been moved around over the years so they could’ve been written anywhere from 1975 to 1978, but they were indeed found in the archives for Empire and he wasn’t just going back and referencing stuff found from the first Star Wars’ production.

I’m going to hazard a guess that the notes were written in the second half of 1977, before November of that year ahead of his conference with Leigh Brackett. The details read like the first film was already complete (the characters introduced in that film already have their correct names, for one), and appear to be trying to turn Star Wars into a 9-12 part saga (as opposed to the first 1-3 installments of a 12-episode serial). And in general you’d presume you’d want to get all your brainstorming and outlining done by the time you’re writing the first treatment.

On the other hand, you could suppose that after Brackett’s draft and subsequent death Lucas went back to the drawing board a bit to prepare for writing the second draft himself - and indeed the 2nd draft is the first time Empire opens with “Episode V” (on the typed copy, at least).

(More scans of the notes/treatments/drafts at link: https://imgur.com/a/B8Xd69U)
"Outline"

Post
#1541343
Topic
Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
Time

I think the origins of “Father Vader” are probably even simpler than Kiminski’s theory once you take what we know of Star Wars’ development into account.

The Star Wars that hit theaters functions mostly as a standalone story, Lucas having “stolen the ending” of the two-parter he’d had in mind and ending up with a movie that in the broadest strokes resembles what’d become the overall trilogy in condensed form, and there’s really only a few major plot points it didn’t cover, two of the biggest ones being:

  • The hero’s cyborg father makes a heroic sacrifice
  • The “black knight” villain turns against the empire and saves the heroes

With that in mind, when you hear the way Lucas puts it in the “From Star Wars to Jedi” doc from 1983: (https://youtu.be/YKhGkiHSlAA?t=3292)

From Star Wars to Jedi Lucas Interview

“As that evolved as I did the first film, I didn’t know how the public would take all this and that it would be as successful as it was and Darth Vader would become the character he became. And so when I got down to the second film, I had to make a decision about whether I was really going to go through with this thing, of him being his father. And I finally decided that that really was the way, that was the original story and that was the one I really liked the most and so I had to stick with it.”

Yes, Lucas is still being cagey here and I’m sure he’s hoping people will take it that a Brilliant Plot Twist was always the plan… but strictly speaking, what he’s saying fits right in line with what we know. He had an opportunity to go back and tell “the original story” involving a cyborg father and a heroic sacrifice, because (completely serendipitously) the “black knight” villain had become the cyborg.

This is the storyline he “liked the most” over the one that moved the father’s death into the unseen past, the latter of which sounds exactly like the kind of compromise you make when you’re trying to shove everything back into a single movie (Obi-Wan Kenobi’s death would sort of serve as a substitute, though that was also entirely serendipitous - Obi Wan was going to live to the end but it was Marcia’s suggestion that he be killed off).

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#1541315
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Random Musings about the Empire Strikes Back Draft Script
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darklordoftech said:
In the 2nd draft, is Yoda still called “Minch”, is he called “Minch Yoda”, or is he called “Yoda”?

He’s called Yoda according to Rinzler’s Making of book (which is where I’m getting my info on the 2nd draft; I don’t have a file of it or anything).

Edited to add: While we’re at it, though, in Lucas’s notes Yoda is referred to by yet another name: Bunden Debannen, a.k.a. “Buffy”.

"Buffy" reference by JW Rinzler

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#1540569
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Why ROTJ Feels Rushed
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Juno Eclipse said:

Do we know at what point in production the ‘darker’ script with “Had Abbadon” (the Imperial City) was jettisoned for a ‘lighter’ script with re-use of the Death Star instead?

Just to be clear, the Death Star was always there in ROTJ. In fact, there were TWO Death Stars being constructed above Had Abbadon!

That said, they weren’t as far along in construction as the one in the final film and I don’t think there were any scenes set aboard either of them. As well, there’s no need for fighters to enter them as their cores are exposed enough that merely bringing down the shield is a sufficient weakness for the rebels to exploit.