Thanks for weighing-in on this, none!
Another WookieGroomer-like split version is an excellent idea, but GOUT-sync'ing is a pain-in-the-ass enough as-is.
For now: why don't we choose a few easy-to-find frames from each IP reel (preferably ones just before or after a sharp scene change) that have unique characteristics and start the comparisons there?
FremenDar007 said:
Molly, you should do a Kickstarter to get a X0 or X9.
The Pioneer HLD-X9 is, IMHO, overrated.
The S:N ratio on the composite video line is visibly-worse than that of the Pioneer HLD-X0.
Still, it's an excellent machine if you have it connected to a more-than-excellent 3D comb filter.
Doctor M said:
Wow, old thread.
It was NecromancerTime™!
Of course, this all depends on whether or not the JSC has the cloudy Yavin shot...
New hypothesis: Ben & Burtt damaged the negative rather than an IP, but an early IP was printed-off before the damage occurred. This early IP didn't have the subtitles for the Greedo scene burned-in, didn't have the cloudy Yavin shot, and was used for the pre-1993 NTSC home video releases, including the JSC LD.
(This would explain why they re-did the first C-3PO and R2-D2 shot for the SE!)
Two IPs were then printed off from the damaged negative:
1. An "early" IP that didn't have the cloudy Yavin shot, but was found and used for the >=1993 releases, such as the Technidisc LD. (<-- This might have been used for the pre-credits-fix theatrical run!)
2. A "late" IP that did have the cloudy Yavin shot and was used for the theatrical run.
This might also explain why the credits changed early-on in the theatrical run. The cloudy Yavin shot might have been added along with the credits fix!
TServo2049 said:
An IP with the TOE, and without the extra clouds in the Yavin shot, was also used for the 1989 French widescreen LD (and subsequently reused on the 1993 German widescreen release).
I knew that Yavin shot would mess up my attempt to simplify things!
(TOE=Tantive Orange Errors; GSB=Greedo Subtitles Burned-in; CYS=Cloudy Yavin Shot)
So is there a third IP?
1. IP #1 - TOE: yes; GSB: yes; CYS: yes
2. IP #2 - TOE: yes; GSB: ?; CYS: no
3. IP #3 - TOE: no; GSB: no; CYS: ?
Bingowings said:
We need updates.
I know, right? How are we supposed to go on without them?!
pat man: Where the hell are you?!
Well, it came and went. I'm still here! :-]
I have these now, but it's going to take me a little time to upload them, as I'm having some problems with my desktop computer.
What changes are present (if any) in the '93 mixes of TESB and ROTJ?
Also, I just realized that the solution I posted above would save you from having to do some kind of wacky frame-blending to achieve what you want to achieve.
It simply produces a 2X faster blend-free version of a shot.
One crude solution to increasing the "speed" of an image sequence (assuming it's all the same shot) by 2X is to:
1. Drop 3 of every 4 frames of the shot (i.e., take every fourth frame)
2. Use MFlowInter to generate intermediate frames to smooth out the motion
This would transform the shot from:
X X X X X X X X...
to
X I X I...
where X=original frame and I=intermediate frame.
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
AntcuFaalb said:
A cleaning can't hurt (see below), but LDs aren't anywhere near as sensitive as CDs and DVDs are when it comes to surface cleanliness.
If you do choose to clean 'em, I suggest using Novus #1 Plastic Polish and a good microfiber cloth. Also, consider using Novus #2 to buff-out scratches.
I agree! Consider that laserdisc has analog video, and no error correction like CD/DVD/BD, so even a really tiny dust particle (<1μm) inside the layers could show up as black dots or lines.
Yes, unfortunately occlusion defects are impossible to avoid. :-(
That's awesome-looking, BryanFyffe! Keep up the good work!
I've always liked IG-88. I wish we had had the opportunity to get to know more about him.
Also, it's worth noting that there haven't been any official home video releases with the original theatrical subtitles used in the Greedo scene.
It seems to be the case that even in the "IP with TOE" (which should have the Greedo subtitles burned-in), the Greedo scene was spliced-in from another source, most likely the "IP without TOE".
To me, the following seems to be true:
(TOE="Tantive Orange Errors")
1. IP without TOE -> all theatrical prints and all pre-SE NTSC home video releases produced prior to 1993.
2. IP with TOE -> all NTSC home video releases produced after or during 1993, including the Technidisc-pressed SWE LD, which is the only release of this master that wasn't run through the DVNR-1000.
Here's a tough question for ANH: Is the presence (of lack thereof) of the "Tantive Orange Errors" enough for us to determine which master was used to make a particular release?
msycamore said:
For Star Wars (ANH) I don't know if we can come that much further than what we've already have in those few threads in the Thetrical Cuts vs. SE section of the forum. You basically have a family tree in that post you linked to, albeit a bit incomplete with all the PAL home video releases out there which I'm less familiar with.
I agree, but I see this thread as a way for us to finally bring together all of this information, including PAL home video release information.
Can you re-post any/all of the conclusions you've come to in those other threads? It would be useful to start collecting that information here.
Zip Doodah said:
There will be an offer to the list of an unrestored animated feature soon to help finally defray the cost of transfer- and the original hd file to a few of you folks to work with.
Excellent news! Keep me posted via PM, OK?
msycamore said:
AntcuFaalb said:
Were any of the NTSC VHS releases struck from truly unique masters?
That is, were any mastered from a source not used for a Laserdisc release, for instance?
I don't think so, you have the '91 UK SWE VHS that seems to be transferred to PAL from NTSC... that release is still a bit of an enigma.
What about the 1995 NTSC THX "Faces" Pan&Scan VHS release?
SpilkaBilka said:
This is really interesting stuff. It would be really cool to figure it all out.
What's the deal with the variations in the Yavin starfighter takeoff shot? (There's an extra cloud effect, and I believe there's either an extra group of fighters taking off, or they're in groups of 4 instead of 3). Have those variations shown up in home video releases?
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Print-variations-in-77-Star-Wars/post/600763/#TopicPost600763
IDK if msycamore has looked at any of the home video releases.
JEDIT: Actually, he has. Continue down the thread.
Harmy: I'm sorry for hijacking this thread... again.
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
AntcuFaalb said:
Interestingly, the IP without the "Tantive Orange Errors" is also the one without the burned-in subtitles for the Greedo scene.
Actually, the PAL THX laserdisc I used for my preservation project have the TOE and not Greedo subtitles (except the german one, which has both)... possibly a third source was used?
I think they spliced-in the Greedo scene from the subtitle-free source (the other IP without the TOE).
That's what they did for the Technidisc LD, IIRC.
ww12345 said:
Ah. I see. Here I was, thinking that you and Poita (plus some others) were on the trail to make an LD source come out 2k, and you crushed my dreams. lol
Unfortunately, no.
The best we can hope for is "indistinguishable from a pretty-good DVD release".
It'd still be worlds-better than GOUT, which is more than enough incentive for me to keep on working!