My point precisely. I was, of course, speaking hypothetically so as to make a parellel rather than endeavoring to achieve historical accuracy vis-a-vis the Mona Lisa. :)
Sluggo said:I get what you are saying, but it is wrong. Why would a sandperson know English?
I chalked that up to sloppiness on Lucas' part, actually.
I'm not trying to argue that it is a sandperson necessarily; I'm only saying that that was my initial assumption, which I've never really questioned until now. It doesn't sound a thing like Liam Neeson's voice. It does sound, to my ears, an awful lot like someone whose life is being snuffed out by a lightsaber. That the tusken would be speaking english (or basic, if you prefer) is inconsistent, to be sure, but that's true of the PT as a whole.
C3PX said:A Tusken raider calling out Anakin's name??
Hmm, how odd would it be to find an injured man crawling along on the road, then realizing it is Liam freakin' Neeson.
"Liam Neeson? Muy muy I loove you!!! You were awesome as Qui-Gon in The Phantom Menance! That fight with Darth Maul, Briiiiiiilant stuff!!! You were so--"
"Just get me to a hospital!"
No, I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I was saying that this is how I'd always interpreted the voices in Yoda's head:
Qui-Gon: "Anakin! Anakin!"
Dying tusken raider: Nooooo!
Vader: [breath]
Make sense?
If Leonardo Da Vinci had come back thirty years after the unveiling of the Mona Lisa and crudely added a blue handlebar moustache and goatee, thus indelibly rendering the original inaccessible, it would be a travesty. Perhaps a few art lovers would cry out in infuriated protestation, and perhaps Da Vinci would reply, "Ah, but art it never finished, only abandoned. This is closer to my original vision than the old version." This would do little to allay the fury of those who wish to pay their respects to the original masterpiece, for it is neither an explanation nor an excuse, but a flimsy (and rather conceited) dismissal of the peoples' concern.
Absurdity? Perhaps. But so is the tampering to which George Lucas has subjected his own masterpiece, the seemingly insoluble revisionism from which he refuses to cease. It angers me, and flippant dismissal of such criticism is neither amicable nor fair.
I suppose, if it comes right down to it, special features could always be released seperately, as in a bonus DVD. Certainly the demand for it wouldn't be as high as demand for the main feature, but I'd definitely download it, and I suspect pretty much everyone else here would, too.
A. 1983
While Yub Nub might seem a bit anticlimactic, I contend that it's nowhere near as anticlimactic as the Kenny G., hippy-music that we got in 1997. Now, in all fairness, I actually enjoy the new piece of music in and of itself...but fit the mood of the closing scene, it does not. Yub Nub is cheerful, upbeat, and celebratory; what we're stuck with now sounds more like something I'd expect to hear in the elevator, or while sitting in my dentist's waiting room. Pretty, yes; celebratory & climactic, no.
Moreover, as has been pointed out many times before, the multi-planet celebration sequence - while visually impressive and fun to watch (apart from the Naboo & Gungan part, that is) - ultimately makes no sense. Really, George? The Death Star just blew up mere minutes ago, and planets all across the galaxy are simultaneously setting off fireworks and rejoicing en mass? Really?? You're implying that the whole conflict is over instantly? Just based on the fact that one battlestation was destroyed and one despot was killed? Really??
Whatever. The rebels having a victory party and celebrating in a manner consistent with the planet & culture in which they find themselves makes sense. The revisionist, unnaturally epic, shoehorned, self-contradictory BS we got got in 1997, I can do without entirely.
Vaderisnothayden said:Is it confirmed that the "Nooo!" in Qui Gon's scene in AOTC wasn't Neeson? Because it doesn't sound like his voice.
Doesn't sound like his voice at all. Is it meant to be Qui Gon's voice? I guess I always interpreted it as a Tusken Raider's gutteral cry whilst being sliced in half by Anakin...
I disagree; I think ROTJ is much darker and more ault-oriented (with a few exceptions, obviously) than a lot of ESB-smitten fans like to let on, particularly the Luke-Vader-Palpatine scenes. Luke's electrocution brought my kid cousin to tears!
Heh. "...jars me out of the film." Pun intended, VaderisnotHayden? ;)
Ehh...can't say the "suit" discrepancy ever really bothered me. Doubtless Vader own several suits, each of which is slightly different from the others so as to be preferable in a givel set of situations.
Come to think of it, a line I wouldn't mind seeing cut from ESB:R is one of these lines. "The city's central computer told you?" is purely repetition-for-the-audience, as seen if we translate R2's lines based on 3PO's replies:C-3PO: "How would you know the hyperdrive is deactivated?"
R2-D2: [The city's central computer told me.]
C-3PO: "The city's central computer told you?"
R2-D2: [That's what I just said, stupid.]
C-3PO: "R2-D2, you know better than to trust a strange computer!"3PO comes across as obtuse and slow; omitting the second line rectifies this. The third line gives us all the information we need to know from the second line, particularly given we saw R2 interfacing with the Cloud City computer and he mentioned the Falcon's hyperdrive (translated by 3PO in a non-repetitive way) then.
It would also work fairly well, I think, if you cut it this way:
C-3P0: "How would you know the hyperdrive is deactivated?"
R2-D2: [The city's central computer told me.]
C-3P0: "The city's central computer?! R2-D2, you know better than to trust a strange comuter!"
AxiaEuxine said:oh yeah, some one else that hates the prequels, what a breath of fresh air that was.
You mean as opposed to the refreshing novelty that is yet more sour grapes from you vis-a-vis the expression of a point of view contrary to your own?
*shudder*
The PT leaves us with basically three options:
1. Obi-Wan is lying about much that happened in the prequel-era. Some of this is understandable (Obi-Wan has a natural disinclination to tell Luke, "Your father was a whiny, bratty, creepy, immature sociopath who somehow managed to bungle up everything that the previous thousand generations had built and accomplished, and all of the evil and suffering in the universe is his fault." Or, "Your father would've wanted you to have this when you were old enough, provided he hadn't turned to the dark side, murdered children, choked your mother, and forced me to dismember him and leave him to burn to death in a pool of lava."), but some of Obi's other "lies" just don't make sense. The way he refers to Yoda as "the Jedi master who instrcuted me" seems incongruous with the depiction of Obi-Wan's training in the PT, but why would he lie about it? Seems pretty irrational to me. Likewise, as has been pointed out, Obi-Wan in the PT was anything but reckless...why would he lie about it, to Yoda of all people, the one person who really would know one way or another?
2. Obi-Wan is remembering everything wrong. Senility has set in, and in order to cope with the troubles of the past, Obi-Wan has invented a fantasy history in which Anakin really was a good (though ultimately misguided) guy, he really did smilingly ask Obi-Wan to give Luke his lightsaber, Qui-Gon never existed (perhaps a defense mechanism to deal with the pain of losing his one father figure), and what stray memories of Anakin's recklessness have gotten through Obi's senility, he has reinterpreted to be his own recklnessness before reaching maturity. I admit this is a stretch, but I much prefer it to the "liar Obi-Wan" interpretation given above. Of course, the biggest problem with this is that Obi seems to misremember the past even as a Force Ghost. Do the effects of psychological trauma and repressed memory really continue to afflict a person after becoming "one with the force"? I'm inclined to say no, though I suppose it's not impossible.
3. The PT is an elaborate forgery, and Obi-Wan is right (save, of course, for the little white lie about Vader killing Anakin). Some meddling wannabe historian pieced together a hodge-podge representation of the history of the Clone Wars, and ended up getting a lot of details wrong. The PT should be disregarded when it clashes with the account of a credible eye-witness: Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Of course, I find option '3' the easiest to swallow, but it won't fly with TFNers. I don't really see any other way out, though. I'm perfectly happy to just write off the PT as poorly-written revisionist historical-fiction and consider "canon" only that which doesn't conflict with the OT...
ChainSawAsh beat me to it. Regardless, here's my review.
Overall: Yours are without a doubt the best PT fanedits I've seen thus far. I thoroughly enjoyed them, and some of your more "radical" changes lent the whole trilogy a freshness it's not had for years. Kudos, sir.
Things I loved: Blue title & crawls: good stuff. Purple sabers for Mace, Dooku, and Yoda: brilliantly conceived and executed. This made Mace's saber seem less out-of place, thus eradicated the "huh??" reaction that most of us have when seeing one (and only one) purple saber in the whole galaxy. Now, purple saber = uber elite jedi. Much better. Overall dialogue trimming and silliness removal: this is, of course, the principle motivation behind most fanedits of the PT, and you pulled yours off very convincingly. Most of your cuts were very seamless and undetectable, moreso than most of the other PT edits I've seen. No more battle droid voices: vast improvement. Thanks.
Things I wasn't crazy about:
-There were a few specific scenes cut to the detriment of plot flow, which I'll mention in more detail below. Furthermore, I felt like there were one or two lines of dialogue that could've been cut, but weren't. Pretty minor complaints, overall.
-There were a few typos in the opening crawl that ChainSawAsh has already pointed out.
-In all three episodes, I concur with ChainSawAsh that there's a conspicuously long pause between the recession of the Star Wars logo and the inception of the opening crawls. Could the crawl start sooner?
-Finally, though you've done a valiant job of salvaging the train-wreck that is the PT, it's still the PT...it seems that, however this turd is polished, it'll never gleam as brilliantly as a properly written, shot, and directed PT would've. Not your fault; there's simply not enough material currently available to bring the PT up to par with the OT. But you've closed the gap between the two admirably, and for that you are to be commended.
Specific comments on each episode to follow.
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Ep. I - Attack of the Federation
I felt like this was the strongest of your three edits. It flowed the most smoothly and had the fewest seams. You really managed to turn my least-favorite PT film into my favorite PT film - no small feat, I assure you.
-I'm still not entirely sold on the title, but it's an awful lot better than "The Phantom Menace." Probably just a personal preference thing.
-The following cuts were brilliant. No Planet Core: I can't believe how much this improves the mood of the film! Blank-faced Sidious: When I first heard about this change, I was quite skeptical as to whether or not it would work. Having seen it, I conclude that it most certainly does. Great job! The altered voice also works well, preserving the sound of Sidious' voice while making it less recognizeable as Palpatine's. R2's edited introducion: This is about 1000% better than it was originally. I no longer cringe at this scene. No more midichlorians, prophecy, or virgin birth: I can't tell you how badly I wanted a copy of the PT that ommitted these embarassing details and did so seamlessly. Thanks! New Podrace: Again, I was initially skeptical, but it came off well. Much more believable. You really eliminated the 'Sesame Street' vibe from this sequence. New Deleted Scene introducing Anakin: Although I don't like having Greedo identified by name in the PT, this nevertheless functions as a much better "bringing the group together" scene than did the original. Nice work. Deleted Scene with Qui-Gon & Maul's probe: Introduces an ominous feeling to their trek back to the ship. Will they make it? I think this works very well. Anakin & Obi-Wan's first meeting: "YOU'RE a Jedi TOO?!?! Pleased to meet you!!" Thank you so much for deleting this line. I'll never miss it.
-Suggestions: not too many for this edit; like I said, I think it's your strongest. The crawl is good, though remember to consider starting it sooner. 19:59-20:03 Here's where Gunray attests that it's impossible to track their prey, and Sidious says "Not for the Sith," but you've deleted that line. I don't miss the line, but the dead silence while we're waiting for Maul seems a bit...out of place. If you're cutting the line, could you cut a second or two of the "waiting" out please? 1:24:17 When Anakin first takes off in his fighter, he says to R-2 "Try and override it." Since you've eliminated the autopilot factor (which I agree needed to be eliminated), the line doesn't make much sense. Consider cutting it?
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Ep. II - Twilight of the Republic
A good edit, though a little weaker, IMO, than your first one. Some of the cuts are a little bit more jarring (though still very good overall). I really like the new name; much better than AOTC.
-Things I really appreciated. Fett's voice modulator: nice touch. Haven't seen this done before. (Of course, if you could get a redub by someone who sounded like Jason, that'd be even better....) ;) Removed the dart subplot: I love it! You removed a lot of extraneous and embarassing material here. Great job! New & improved asteroid chase sequence: Feels more like Star Wars than the original did. New interpretation of Shmi's death: This was an awesome feature of this edit, maybe the best thing you did to the whole movie. It works on so many levels and is a vast improvement over Anakin's hack/whine-fest. New factory sequence: My wife thought you were too gung-ho with the scissors here, but I thought it was perfect. Much less like watching George Lucas play a video game, which is precisely how the original felt. Cut the droids out of Geonosis entirely: I didn't know if it could be done well, but once again, you've shown me that it can. Thanks; those antics were really annoying originally. Padme confronts Dooku: Works very well where you've put it. Newly edited pre-arena "I love You" sequence: Much better. This takes the cringe-factor down considerably. Dooku the Jedi: This reinterprets the whole political landscape of the Clone Wars, and I love it! When done with your edits, I feel like I was rooting for the wrong side; Dooku and the Separatists were standing firm against the Dark Lord, and had they won, the whole Empire-tragedy could've been avoided. Very intriguing reinterpretation. New saber fight, sans-Yoda: Works much better. I can't tell you how good it is to not see Yoda leaping about like a munchkin on LSD.
-Suggestions: 15:44: The dialogue between Anakin & Obi-Wan just before entering the nightclub is a little rough. Though I like what you've done with the overall removal of "my master" and "young padawan" throughout the film, I feel like the dialogue edit here is a little jarring. Consider restoring the original, or reworking it to be smoother. 20:45: "Don't worry, we have R-2 with us!" "Ha. ha. ha" Aaaaaarrrgh!! I wish you'd consider cutting this line; it's terribly cringe-inducing. 31:07:"Well, if it works." *pause* "You're making fun of me!" Might I suggest taking a page out of ADM's playbook and cutting the scene after "if it works"? I know it takes away from the flirtatiousness of the sequence, but it gives Anakin a badly-needed "edge" that shows his oligarchic predisposition. Makes his future seem even more clouded. As with all of these, just a suggestion. The extended fight between Obi-Wan and Jango: I'm not really sure why you cut this...I kinda like the sequence. I assume you have a good reason, though. 1:04:52: This is the dialogue between Anakin and Obi-Wan just as they're all being chained to the columns in preparation for execution. Though your cut works, I kinda like the original banter better (save for the ensuing "what about Padme?" "She seems to be on top of things" pun). Consider restoring it, up to the "good job."? 1:07:49-1:08:06: This is the dialogue between Mace and Dooku when Dooku first steps up to the plate. In my copy, there are some very noticeable syncing issues...the voices just don't sync up to the mouth movements. Not sure if it's there in the master copy or not, but check it out. Light saber duel, suggestion 1: I like the new cut & pace of the duel a lot! However, there's a bit of a continuity issue. Up until Obi-Wan tosses his saber to Anakin, Anakin and Dooku are standing over him. Then, as soon as Anakin catches the saber and engages Dooku, it appears that they're in a different part of the room (ie, Obi-Wan's body is nowhere to be seen). Not sure how to fix this, other than perhaps matting Obi-Wan's body into the subsequent shot, but I thought I'd bring your attention to it either way. Light sabe duel, suggestion 2: This one's very minor, but in the "face shots" of Anakin and Dooku where the light is cast by their saber's, there are one or two split second shots where you can still see the red from Dooku's original saber. This is most noticeable when the sabers clash. Check it out. Opening crawl: ChainSawAsh already pointed out the "lead to conflict" typo. Should be "led to conflict." Let me suggest, however, a rewriting of the line: "This SEPARATIST UNION, under the leadership of the former Jedi Knight Count Dooku, has incited conflict with the remaining Republic systems." Or something to that effect. Moreover, consider changing "to defend against the potential Separatist threat" to "to counter the rising Separatist threat." I think it reads better.
One final suggestion that I feel strongly about: consider re-working some of Poggle-the-Lesser's lines? You've made a great improvement (especially where his lines modify things substantially), but I feel that they could be polished a little more. Just a couple suggestions
Beginning of the execution: "Silence! Let there be silence!" "These murderers shall now pay for our comrades deaths!" I see what you're doing here, and it's a great idea: make the execution less a matter of Dooku being vengeful (since he's still a jedi), and make it a matter of capital punishment for the killing of Geonosians. I just feel like the second sentence is a bit much to cram into one sentence. Consider this: replace the first sentence (Silence! Let there be silence!) with "These foreigners have spilled Geonosian blood." Then, replace the second (These murders shall now pay...) with "Execute the murderers!" I feel that something like that would flow better.
1:13:07: Poggle says, "Yet we must not surrender to the Republic." Consider a slight change: "And yet we must not surrender to the Republic." Just for the sake of flow.
1:14:52: Here, Poggle chains several comments together. " "Lord Dooku, you and the other Separatists must flee at once!" "My soldiers will try to give you enough time to escape." "You must take these battlestation schematics with you as well." "The Dark Lord must not possess such a terrible weapon!" "Good luck, old friend!" Brilliant job with this sequence, but let me just suggest a couple slight tweaks: "Lord Dooku, you and the other Separatists must flee at once!" "My soldiers will try to buy you wnough time to escape." "Take these battlestation schematics with you." (I think the "as well" just doesn't fit here very naturally). "The Dark Lord must not possess such a terrible weapon!" "May the Force be with you." Make sense? I think it would read & flow a little better that way. Let me know what you think. :)
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Ep. III - The Black Knight Rises
Overall, very good edit, though I feel that a couple of the cuts (particularly toward the end) do damage to the flow of the film. Like the new title, BTW.
-Pros: Re-edited space-fight & Grievous' ship sequence: This works a lot better than the original. Good job. Dooku's saber: Again, saweet. Various dialogue trimimg: Needed to be done. Removal of the "Jedi not being allowed to love": Thank you so much...this was such a stupid plotpoint that really needed removal. Re-edited duels all around: Muchly needed, particularly Anakin's turn following the Mace/Sidious duel. No more "lost the will to live" motif: An obvious trim, but definitely necessary. Newly edited "birth of Vader" sequence: A good deal less cheesy than the original; it's always been painful to hear Vader's first words from behind the mask come delivered so pathetically. Removed the cokney youngling's line: Very wise move. Reincorporated beginning of the rebellion scenes: Nicely done, now that you've trimmed out that annoying bearded guy's lines.
-Suggestions: Opening crawl suggestions: 1.) More than the first two, there seems to be a conspicuous pause between the logo and the crawl. 2.) As ChainSawAsh pointed out, "past" should be "passed." Let me further suggest a rewrite, from "Five years have passed since the start of the CLONE WARS, as the Galactic Republic continues its struggle against the Separatist Union" to this: "Five years have passed since the CLONE WARS began. The Galactic Republic continues its struggle against the Separatist Union." 3.) Consider changing "rebel Count Dooku" to "rebel Jedi Count Dooku." 4.) "Has swept through the Republic capital" should be "have swept through the Republic capital" or, alternatively, "...Count Dooku has swept through the republic capital CORUSCANT with his droid army and captured Chancellor..." 5.) Consider changing "...and ANAKIN SKYWALKER must now lead a desperate mission..." to "...and ANAKIN SKYWALKER have been dispatched to lead a desperate mission..." The removal of the Yoda-Sidious duel: I see why you did this: the Yoda-Sidious duel is truly idiodic. However, it's absense is very conspicuous, particularly given Obi-Wan's line "Send me to kill the emperor; I will not kill Anakin." This line implies that the Emperor will be confronted (ostensibly by Yoda), but the confrontation never comes. I'm left wondering: "Was there such a show-down? Did Yoda just ignore the threat posed by the Emperor? Is he just a coward? Why didn't Obi-Wan proceed to face Sidious after taking Anakin down a peg? What's going on?" Would you at least consider reincorporating a heavily-trimmed version of the Sidious-Yoda duel? I don't like it, but I think including it does less damage than ommitting it. "Lord Sidious offered us peace": With the removal of the "Sidious controls the Separatist Union" plotpoint, I'm not sure this line makes sense. Consider removing it? The removal of the "Obi-Wan and Yoda fighting their way into the temple" scene: I rather like this brief scene. I'm sure there's a reason you cut it, but I'm not sure what it is.
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Ok, I think that's all I've got (for now.) If I think of anything else, I'll post again. (Sorry for the massive wall-o'-text.)
In conclusion, your edits are very masterful and enjoyable; I thank you for them immensely. I hope you won't interpret my suggestions as attacks on your edits: I really do think you've come very close to perfection insofar as PT edits are concerned (short of actually doing a full-blown color correction, that is), and I feel that with just a little more tweaking, they could excell even further. Do remember that my suggestions are just those: suggestions. Consider them, but reject them if you wish. Again, thanks for your edits; I'm looking forward to the DVD versions. :)
Sweet! I finished the first two yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed them, JasonN. If I have time, I'll write up reviews of all three after I've had a chance to watch the latest installment. :)
Except that they have to traverse through space to another star system without the aid of a hyperdrive, which could've well taken months. Thus, truncated timeline. Makes Luke's surprising competency with a lightsaber after only a brief crash-course on Dagobah a bit more believable...
Ady's ESB:R is still in production. You can stay abreast of the progress by following the project's thread in this forum. :)
Huh. I've used Memorex DL discs for quite some time, and have had very few problems with them...
Johnny5 said:No ones perfect Akwat. I just got a little mad. Stop calling me spiritually mature. Its pretty immature to tease, like you guys are 4.
No one is asking for perfection, just a little civility and the maturity that you seem to laud so much. If you're prepared to engage in intelligent discussion rationally and with a little self-restraint (ie, no more pretentious demands and hot-headed outbursts), then you're welcome to hang around. If you're not up to the challenge, then I don't think you can anticipate very much in the way of acceptance around here.
TheBoost said:C3PX said:TheBoost said:Although how famous was Bale back when AOTC came out?
He had been in a lot of high profile movies by that time and his name was well known. He had been in Disney's Treasure Island with Charlton Heston, Spielberg's Empire of the Sun, American Psycho, and The Newsies, to name a few off the top of my head.
In 2002, the same year AOTC was released, he starred in the (semi) Fahrenheit 451 adaption titled Equilibrium and was big enough to have his name advertised on the movie poster (though I think the movie was a bit of a flop, I for one rather liked it).
I guess he was a mid to low level movie star. Not particuarly more famous than Ewan McGregor was (although i think a bit old for Anakin).
But he did kick ass in Newsies.
Certainly too old for Anakin as the prequels stand now, but I fervently believe that the huge age gap was a mistake (particularly given the nine-year-old character introduction, complete with an embarrassingly cringe-worthy delivery by Jake "Are you an angel?" Lloyd). If Anakin had been closer to Obi-Wan's age, the comraderie between them George wanted to establish in Ep. II and - on an even deeper level - Ep. III, would've worked far better. Furthermore, such an approach (casting someone Bale's age in Ep. I) would've heightened the tension in Ep. V when Luke asks to be trained, and Yoda is initially insistent that he's too old. The audience would be thinking, "Uh oh, Anakin was about this age when he started training, and look how badly that turned out! Is Luke going to fall too?"
Soo..."spiritually mature" = telling people to shut up and acting like a spoiled child?
Impressive. Most impressive.
Wow...this is really inane. I'm sure all the reasonable and adequately articulate Christians on this forum just love the pathetic example you're setting...
Jason, I initially disliked the notion of Yoda having a purple saber, but the more I think about it, the more it makes a brilliant kind of sense. Putting Yoda, Dooku, and Mace on the same level like that heightens the dramatic tension and also dispels the "huh??" effect upon seeing green & blue sabers galore, but only one purple blade. I'd definitely encourage you to pursue this idea, radical though it may be.
Looking forward to your edits! :)