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your thoughts: Did Disney kill star wars because it sounds like they did with the last jedi solo and resistance. — Page 8

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Ryan-SWI said:

pleasehello said:

I find it strangely dissonant that you dismiss TFA and TLJ as “nostalgic cashgrabs” and “corporate fan fiction”, yet you say you “loved” Rogue One.

Contrary to your opinion, I thought that TFA and TLJ while they do play on nostalgia, had a lot more heart than Rogue One, which I felt was a soulless assembly of recognizable imagery built around hollow characters.

TFA and TLJ add nothing of value to the saga of I - VI, Rogue One does.

The characters in Rogue One may be very underdeveloped, but at least they’re actual characters with flaws and personalities, and not Cliche Two Dimensional Character #1, #2 and #3.

If you’re talking about plot-wise, then I agree Rogue One does add more to Star Wars. Though I don’t know how you can say that neither TFA nor TLJ add nothing of value. Yeah, Rey is kind of a blank slate, an avatar for the audience. But Kylo Ren directly informs the characters of Han, Leia and Luke. We get to see how they’ve changed since the OT. What those movies lack in plot (and they do) they make up for with story and conflict between characters.

Rogue One is the opposite. It’s all plot, no character conflict. Between some of the characters, there’s almost no interaction at all, which makes me question their purpose in the movie. They each have their own character traits (mostly just their jobs) I guess. But saying they have well defined personalities is a stretch. Donnie Yen’s character was the only one with any personality at all.

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RogueLeader said:

The old Jedi Order took students from infancy in order to control their emotional attachments, which they saw as gateways to the dark side. This is why they were so reluctant to take on Anakin as a Jedi. I think it gave the wrong impression that learning how to use the Force took years, when that really isn’t the entirely the case. It has more to do with belief, and one’s ability to “let go of your conscious self”.

It also surprises me a little that people haven’t considered as much that the Force itself has changed between the trilogies. The Force isn’t a static ability, it’s dynamic and connected to life itself, making it in a way alive.

Episode 7 is literally called The Force Awakens. What does that mean? Is it not possible that this awakening is not partially responsible for the feats we’ve seen across the board in the new films, like Kylo Ren freezing blaster bolts, Rey’s fast-growing abilities, their subsequent Force-Skype sessions, Leia pulling herself back to the ship, Luke’s Force projection, even broom boy’s subtle Force pull?

You could even argue this began with Luke in the OT, the first real student of the Force since the Jedi Purge. He really only had a few weeks at most of official training with Yoda, but in Return of the Jedi, only a year later with no additional training under Yoda, he is on the verge of officially becoming a Jedi.

It raises some questions about the nature of the Force. Does the overall use of the Force have an affect on its potential in existing Force-users? Does the Force have a will of its own to choose who it acts through? Did training Jedi from infancy have a side-effect of limiting their relationship with the Force in ways that didn’t exist for those who discovered it at adulthood? Is the Force just like an ocean, where the tide can rise and fall?

I personally think these questions about the Force should really never be answered fully, and should remain mysterious, simple-yet-complicated, and sometimes contradictory, much like the Tao that inspired it, and also as a concept of a universal religion-symbol that George meant it to be, since religions are also endlessly debated upon.

I think the important theme we are meant to take from the Force is the ideas of faith and belief, the crux of all religions, and the internal power we can get from faith in our own lives, religious or not. Luke struggles with the Force in the OT because of his doubt in the Force and his own personal self-doubt.

Rey on the other hand grew up with the legend of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi, and not long after learning about the reality of the them, she slowly learns that she’s also connected to this Force and begins her own journey of self-discovery and self-actualization.

With broom boy, moments before his Force use, he is being told the story of Luke Skywalker’s grand stand against the evil First Order, with wonder in his eyes. He believes in the Jedi, in the Force, and that subtle moment, something he might not have even realized he did, is a representation of what the power of faith and hope can have in the world and in ourselves.

Anyway, just my two cents. Not trying to argue, just sharing my perspective.

It’s all good dude, I love discussing this stuff. And I acknowledge that I’m the one being a ‘conservative’ fan here. Since the Force is a pretty nebulous concept, it makes sense that we’d all get a different sense of what it might be.

Lucas is notorious for changing his mind as he goes along, but for me the Force sits where he stated during the writing sessions for RoTJ circa 1981 - that the Force is basically ‘space yoga’ that anyone can do as long as they apply themselves. Luke’s journey (again IMO) is that of someone seeking a black belt and the mindfulness of a Bodhisattva. I didn’t agree with Han’s TFA claim that it was ‘a magical power’. I see it as an undiscovered science - something as ‘real’ as gravity or quantum physics that very disciplined souls can utilise.

But that’s just me. I don’t like the idea of Force genetics. I didn’t mind the idea of Jedi-ness running in the family in some vague way, but Midichlorians make it sound like you can attain enlightenment if you have the right blood type. That just kills it for me. The idea of a sentient Force that chooses its own saviours and balances itself through certain people doesn’t ring ‘true’ for me. All that stuff Snoke said about ‘awakenings’ and ‘the light rising to meet the dark’ I interpreted as a kind of anthropomorphic ‘cart before the horse’ summation of how certain characters were tapping into the Force after all this time. Again, I don’t like the idea of a ‘living Force’. I see the Force as an energy that changes according to use, not just because it ‘wants’ to.

I think it’s a bit dicey, in story terms, to make the powers easily attainable. In ep 4 the Force was all but forgotten. Han Solo had travelled far and wide and never seen anything to validate the idea. It makes sense in the context of the OT that attaining these powers requires serious discipline/focus and is only done by a dedicated few. Yes, there’s the supposed ‘quick and easy path’, but I don’t think that refers to just getting powers on a whim. I do like the idea of Rey as something of a ‘feral Jedi’ - someone who unknowingly taps into their own potential by virtue of doing it tough - but she has no limits and suffers no consequences whatsoever. Her lifting an entire mountainside with little effort and zero training invalidates Luke’s journey - as does Broom Boy to an extent. Was Luke just a terrible study then? Is levitation a piece of cake after all? Is the galaxy peppered with precocious kids that are Force-choking their parents and levitating their teachers because they don’t want to do their homework or eat their veges? No, it makes more sense that Jedi potential would manifest in subtle ways as it did with the Skywalkers - good reflexes, keen instincts etc. You could assess a kid at that level, turn them down for whatever reason, and be secure in the knowledge that they’re not suddenly going to start lifting mountains and Force-choking anyone who crosses them! It would require training.

But again, that’s just how I see it. Thanks for the awesome reply - it gave me a lot to ponder. Meditate on this I will…

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This kind of conversation makes me crave a story where Jedi philosophers in some ancient, far-flung temple just sit and debate the nature of the Force.

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RogueLeader said:

This kind of conversation makes me crave a story where Jedi philosophers in some ancient, far-flung temple just sit and debate the nature of the Force.

I second that!

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RogueLeader said:

This kind of conversation makes me crave a story where Jedi philosophers in some ancient, far-flung temple just sit and debate the nature of the Force.

I think that’s happening right now in the Original Trilogy temple.

I can answer almost all questions anyone might have about the Sith from Star Wars Legends, and please do PM me for the bd25 DEED(Despecalised Editions), as I have this version, though I can’t answer technical questions about them. Auntie Derry/Rumpelstiltskin.
Do not go gentle into that good night, Though wise men at their end know dark is right, They
Do not go gentle into that good night. “Stay Phrosty” - Lemar Kentell, my other half. Feel the love.

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I just really wish the EU was still canon. I know they wanted to take it in their own direction but we all know the EU so well and have become attached to the characters we’ve come to know and love from the brilliant authors who have truly fleshed out the SW universe. I know this might not be a big deal to more casual fans, but I’m sure there are so many of us who want the SW we know and love, and not what basically amounts to a massive re-write of the entire canon. I know this isn’t an original opinion but it just makes me very sad to lose so much.

TLJ was a disgrace to the character of Luke Skywalker, a character who we all know would do better than to fall into the traps of the Jedi of old, that being the inaction of the Jedi Council. He becomes a hermit and shuts himself off, which is the most extreme exemplification of the failures of the old Jedi. Luke cares too much about his friends and the Galaxy at large to just shut himself off. Mark Hamill even knows this, he has stated many times that he dislikes the new portrayal of Luke. It’s truly sad to see.

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LordZerome1080 said:

RogueLeader said:

This kind of conversation makes me crave a story where Jedi philosophers in some ancient, far-flung temple just sit and debate the nature of the Force.

I think that’s happening right now in the Original Trilogy temple.

“Light side good. Dark side bad.”

Pretty short debate (and pretty boring one, too).

Arrivederci.

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Shopping Maul said:

RogueLeader said:

The old Jedi Order took students from infancy in order to control their emotional attachments, which they saw as gateways to the dark side. This is why they were so reluctant to take on Anakin as a Jedi. I think it gave the wrong impression that learning how to use the Force took years, when that really isn’t the entirely the case. It has more to do with belief, and one’s ability to “let go of your conscious self”.

It also surprises me a little that people haven’t considered as much that the Force itself has changed between the trilogies. The Force isn’t a static ability, it’s dynamic and connected to life itself, making it in a way alive.

Episode 7 is literally called The Force Awakens. What does that mean? Is it not possible that this awakening is not partially responsible for the feats we’ve seen across the board in the new films, like Kylo Ren freezing blaster bolts, Rey’s fast-growing abilities, their subsequent Force-Skype sessions, Leia pulling herself back to the ship, Luke’s Force projection, even broom boy’s subtle Force pull?

You could even argue this began with Luke in the OT, the first real student of the Force since the Jedi Purge. He really only had a few weeks at most of official training with Yoda, but in Return of the Jedi, only a year later with no additional training under Yoda, he is on the verge of officially becoming a Jedi.

It raises some questions about the nature of the Force. Does the overall use of the Force have an affect on its potential in existing Force-users? Does the Force have a will of its own to choose who it acts through? Did training Jedi from infancy have a side-effect of limiting their relationship with the Force in ways that didn’t exist for those who discovered it at adulthood? Is the Force just like an ocean, where the tide can rise and fall?

I personally think these questions about the Force should really never be answered fully, and should remain mysterious, simple-yet-complicated, and sometimes contradictory, much like the Tao that inspired it, and also as a concept of a universal religion-symbol that George meant it to be, since religions are also endlessly debated upon.

I think the important theme we are meant to take from the Force is the ideas of faith and belief, the crux of all religions, and the internal power we can get from faith in our own lives, religious or not. Luke struggles with the Force in the OT because of his doubt in the Force and his own personal self-doubt.

Rey on the other hand grew up with the legend of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi, and not long after learning about the reality of the them, she slowly learns that she’s also connected to this Force and begins her own journey of self-discovery and self-actualization.

With broom boy, moments before his Force use, he is being told the story of Luke Skywalker’s grand stand against the evil First Order, with wonder in his eyes. He believes in the Jedi, in the Force, and that subtle moment, something he might not have even realized he did, is a representation of what the power of faith and hope can have in the world and in ourselves.

Anyway, just my two cents. Not trying to argue, just sharing my perspective.

It’s all good dude, I love discussing this stuff. And I acknowledge that I’m the one being a ‘conservative’ fan here. Since the Force is a pretty nebulous concept, it makes sense that we’d all get a different sense of what it might be.

Lucas is notorious for changing his mind as he goes along, but for me the Force sits where he stated during the writing sessions for RoTJ circa 1981 - that the Force is basically ‘space yoga’ that anyone can do as long as they apply themselves. Luke’s journey (again IMO) is that of someone seeking a black belt and the mindfulness of a Bodhisattva. I didn’t agree with Han’s TFA claim that it was ‘a magical power’. I see it as an undiscovered science - something as ‘real’ as gravity or quantum physics that very disciplined souls can utilise.

But that’s just me. I don’t like the idea of Force genetics. I didn’t mind the idea of Jedi-ness running in the family in some vague way, but Midichlorians make it sound like you can attain enlightenment if you have the right blood type. That just kills it for me. The idea of a sentient Force that chooses its own saviours and balances itself through certain people doesn’t ring ‘true’ for me. All that stuff Snoke said about ‘awakenings’ and ‘the light rising to meet the dark’ I interpreted as a kind of anthropomorphic ‘cart before the horse’ summation of how certain characters were tapping into the Force after all this time. Again, I don’t like the idea of a ‘living Force’. I see the Force as an energy that changes according to use, not just because it ‘wants’ to.

I think it’s a bit dicey, in story terms, to make the powers easily attainable. In ep 4 the Force was all but forgotten. Han Solo had travelled far and wide and never seen anything to validate the idea. It makes sense in the context of the OT that attaining these powers requires serious discipline/focus and is only done by a dedicated few. Yes, there’s the supposed ‘quick and easy path’, but I don’t think that refers to just getting powers on a whim. I do like the idea of Rey as something of a ‘feral Jedi’ - someone who unknowingly taps into their own potential by virtue of doing it tough - but she has no limits and suffers no consequences whatsoever. Her lifting an entire mountainside with little effort and zero training invalidates Luke’s journey - as does Broom Boy to an extent. Was Luke just a terrible study then? Is levitation a piece of cake after all? Is the galaxy peppered with precocious kids that are Force-choking their parents and levitating their teachers because they don’t want to do their homework or eat their veges? No, it makes more sense that Jedi potential would manifest in subtle ways as it did with the Skywalkers - good reflexes, keen instincts etc. You could assess a kid at that level, turn them down for whatever reason, and be secure in the knowledge that they’re not suddenly going to start lifting mountains and Force-choking anyone who crosses them! It would require training.

But again, that’s just how I see it. Thanks for the awesome reply - it gave me a lot to ponder. Meditate on this I will…

I completely agree.

Despite the Disney SW trying to distance themselves from the Lucas prequels, I guess the idea of a “chosen one” is very appealing, and taps into the Messiah-trope. She’s this humble nobody, but apparently has more potential than Luke and Anakin combined.

If Luke is the son of some famous, powerful Jedi, him stumbling a long the way, and not quite getting it provides a nice contrast.
If Rey is some nobody, who happen to have some connection to the Force, but she struggles like Luke, it insinuates the idea that it’s because she’s a nobody, she doesn’t come from some famous lineage, and, it might imply that it’s because she’s a girl that she has to struggle.

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Since many of you have discussed how Rey is so OP in the Force I’d like to say you know which character should have been portrayed as having Rey’s talents with the Force? Anakin Skywalker.

Think about it. Throughout the OT both Obi-Wan and Yoda talk about how strong Anakin was with the Force, but once the prequels were done we never actually saw him do anything particularly impressive with the Force. All we see him do is move stuff around and do pretty ordinary stuff with the Force. Anakin should have been the one shown doing all the things Rey does without breaking a sweat, like instinctively Force pushing enemies to defend himself, or telekinetically pulling a lightsaber towards his hand and instantly knowing how to wield it, much like Rey does in TFA.

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fmalover said:

Since many of you have discussed how Rey is so OP in the Force I’d like to say you know which character should have been portrayed as having Rey’s talents with the Force? Anakin Skywalker.

Think about it. Throughout the OT both Obi-Wan and Yoda talk about how strong Anakin was with the Force, but once the prequels were done we never actually saw him do anything particularly impressive with the Force. All we see him do is move stuff around and do pretty ordinary stuff with the Force. Anakin should have been the one shown doing all the things Rey does without breaking a sweat, like instinctively Force pushing enemies to defend himself, or telekinetically pulling a lightsaber towards his hand and instantly knowing how to wield it, much like Rey does in TFA.

Yes but if Anakin was like Rey then he would be able to do everything and have no struggles at all. I dont think thats what George was going for, nor do I like the idea. There needs to be some level of tension.

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I’m not saying Anakin should have breezed through the prequels using the Force without breaking a sweat, Force Unleashed style, but when under great stress, he would do mind-blowing stuff with the Force, however this would have its drawbacks. It’s been established that exerting your Force powers too much could be potentially lethal, and we see Luke being physically drained from the effort of doing more elaborate things when training with Yoda in TESB, so why not have Anakin passing out after an amazing display? Just throwing ideas around.

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fmalover said:

It’s been established that exerting your Force powers too much could be potentially lethal…

I guess what your saying is dependant on whether or not your personal cannon includes the sequel trilogy. If yes then cool but for me this is not possible. Yoda states that using the force is a matter of will, not physical strength.

LUKE
Master, moving stones around is one thing. This is totally different.

YODA
No! No different! Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.

Luke would never die from using the force as you cant die from willpower. If my will was that I was a billionaire, I wouldn’t die from it.

Everyone was annoyed when George changed how the force works in the PT, but Disney has now changed it again to something totally different and no one cares. The prequels version of the force and midiclorians is far closer to Georges OT version of the force than Disneys version is. Yet “the PT changed it so its bad!! ST is great though”

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DougieP said:

Everyone was annoyed when George changed how the force works in the PT, but Disney has now changed it again to something totally different and no one cares. The prequels version of the force and midiclorians is far closer to Georges OT version of the force than Disneys version is. Yet “the PT changed it so its bad!! ST is great though”

I used to care. But like a flame eating its way through the muscle to the bone, you just stop feeling any sensation once the damage is thorough enough.

Arrivederci.

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Disney acquiring Star Wars is about the best thing that could have happened.

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I feel like I’m in the minority, Solo was the only one this whole run that made me have some faith in the franchise surviving. It was fun and its own adventure. I had some issues with it, but honestly I thought it felt as close to the fun of the original films as you could get.

Rogue One was a bleak war film that had characters I didn’t care about.
The Last Jedi…I feel I’d break the server with all I have to say about it.
The Force Awakens was a decent reboot, that was ruined by the aftertaste that was its sequel

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

<span> </span>

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I think the whole point of the story films was you can do different things in the SW universe. A fun adventure with Han, or a gritty Dirty Dozen style war tale. I’d love to see them adapt Tag and Bink Are Dead.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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I think we need a SW buddy comedy a la Biodome.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Give me a violenter, gorier version of Groundhog Day, and I’ll be satisfied.

Arrivederci.

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So, Edge of Tomorrow but with SW characters?

a trolling bantha

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DougieP said:

fmalover said:

It’s been established that exerting your Force powers too much could be potentially lethal…

I guess what your saying is dependant on whether or not your personal cannon includes the sequel trilogy. If yes then cool but for me this is not possible. Yoda states that using the force is a matter of will, not physical strength.

LUKE
Master, moving stones around is one thing. This is totally different.

YODA
No! No different! Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.

Luke would never die from using the force as you cant die from willpower. If my will was that I was a billionaire, I wouldn’t die from it.

Uh not really. Yoda says the ability comes from belief in yourself but clearly exerts physical energy after lifting the ship. You have to have faith in the power, but the power is still energy running through your physical body.

Yub Nub for life

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Your heart rate can elevate just based on your thoughts, like while watching a horror movie. It would be logical that the Force flowing through someone and lifting something would also create a physical reaction. Ask your doctor in the Force is right for you.

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Something doesn’t sit right with the idea that the Force is limited by the physical vessel through which it is channeled, at least where the light side is concerned. It is my understanding from the OT that the limiting factor in any feat of the non-Dark Side Force is the belief of the acolyte, with training as a way to allow for greater belief. Luminous beings are we, after all, not this crude matter.

The Dark Side, on the other hand, may very well have some physical cost, as both of the Dark Side users in the OT were either horribly mutilated or clearly insane.

This is one reason why Luke’s death is so inexplicable to me.

The Last Jedi as a movie - Better than Empire. As an Episode - Worse than The Phantom Menace.
DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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We can’t say for sure Luke is dead when Episode IX might turn that scene on it’s head. After all, the mechanical hand didn’t vanish. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

We can’t say for sure Luke is dead when Episode IX might turn that scene on it’s head. After all, the mechanical hand didn’t vanish. 😉

Exterior: Space
Pan down to Ahch-To, First Jedi Temple at dusk.
LUKE’S mechanical hand appears, floating for a moment over the discarded cloak.
A Porg lands on the cloak, and the hand comes alive, brushing it away and snatching up the fabric, which disappears into thin air.

Interior: Lando’s Sail Barge
LUKE appears, hastily adjusting his cloak, before Rey.
REY: (Jumping up from her seat) You came out of nowhere!
LUKE: That makes two of us.

The Last Jedi as a movie - Better than Empire. As an Episode - Worse than The Phantom Menace.
DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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NeverarGreat said:

Something doesn’t sit right with the idea that the Force is limited by the physical vessel through which it is channeled, at least where the light side is concerned. It is my understanding from the OT that the limiting factor in any feat of the non-Dark Side Force is the belief of the acolyte, with training as a way to allow for greater belief. Luminous beings are we, after all, not this crude matter.

The Dark Side, on the other hand, may very well have some physical cost, as both of the Dark Side users in the OT were either horribly mutilated or clearly insane.

This is one reason why Luke’s death is so inexplicable to me.

Yes luminous beings, aka the soul or the spirit. The crude matter is what died. I admit that it feels more “correct” that the bad guys feel ill effects more than the good guys, but there are no real rules beyond what is shown. In theory the “quicker, faster” dark path is damaging in comparison to the more disciplined method. But there’s nothing to say that using the greatest powers when the body is already old shouldn’t have side effects. It’s all vague enough to work for me (well OT and ST anyway).

Yub Nub for life