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questions about cropping/audio/bitrates

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Hello all,
Amazing work by all involved!
I've been making my way through lots of posts, but I'm still confused on (for me) some key points.

First:
after scanning through screenshot comparisons from here:
http://www.geocities.com/m00002001/screenshot-test.htm

and the official thread:
http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=1326

it *appears* as though tr47 project offers more viewable image than the others, which look cropped at left and/or right borders. Mebejedi is almost identical but might have just a hair less viewable image in some screenshots.

I understand more or less the difference between "widescreen" and anamorphic transfers, but don't the screen captures represent the widescreen image of anamorphic transfers after anamorphic conversion?

If I'm to believe the screenshots, this indicates that tr47/mebejedi would be "definitive" for anyone who is most concerned about a complete viewable image, regardless of image quality.

Am I completely missing something on this point?


My second question is:
Is the mebejedi the only transfer to digitally (lossless) tranfer the sound from the laserdiscs?


Third:
I guess I'm confused about the benefit of the anamorphic transfer, apart from the advantage of being able to quickly switch from full frame to 6:9 image, depending on the monitor/tv someone is using at the time.
Am I correct that the "widescreen" tranfers (i.e. v.1 of tr47 conversion) actually offer better picture quality if one doesn't have a true 6:9 monitor/tv, yet wants a widescreen image?

Lastly:
If bitrate for the conversions is only limited by size of the media (single layer vs. dual layer discs), are those doing conversions considering a dual layer version of the widescreen (non-anamorphic) transfers, again for those people that want widescreen image but don't have true widescreen monitor/tv?


Basically I'm looking for the conversion that offers digitally transferred (lossless) sound, in addition to offering the complete widescreen image (no cropping)...and beyond that, I would love to see the total capacity of a dual layer disc dedicated to maximizing the bitrate...willing to sacrifice everything else including menu in this regard.

Any feedback very much appreciated...and my compliments to everyone behind these efforts!!
Thanks so much to everyone for appreciating the original versions of these films...it's great to find people that can relate to what I've been thinking for many years now.

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Welcome to the boards! Thanks for taking the time to do some research and make use of the sticky threads before posting. I wish we had more newbies like you.


First:
The "viewable area" you refer to relies solely on the capture device used. Some capture cards clip more off the sides than others. I know that with my Winfast TV2000 XP card I am able to hack the settings and set my own clipping range, but most (none that I know) other capture devices don't have this ability.


Second:
Both TR47/Cowclops transfers have the original PCM audio off the LDs.


Third:
The advantage of an anamorphic transfer relies solely on the screen you view it on. Widescreen TVs benefit the most, as the anamorphic widescreen format was designed with them in mind. Standard analog 4:3 televisions will actually lose quality when showing an anamorphic image, as lines are actually clipped to scale the image down to size. Would a standard letterbox transfer look better on a widescreen monitor than an anamorphic? That's debatable. What it really comes down to is which one can upscale the image better -- your television on a letterbox transfer, or the software used to upscale an anamorphic transfer during the editing process. Usually an anamorphic image will look better simply because most televisions can't upscale an image nearly as well as video software can. And don't forget that a television has to upscale at real time, which makes a huge difference.

Lastly:
If you don't have a widescreen television, you should consider a letterbox transfer such as either TR47/Cowclops v1.0 which has digital PCM sound, or the EditDroid transfer which in my opinion has a slightly better picture but no PCM sound. Both are excellent transfers though.

Newer transfers such as Citizen's releases are done on dual-layer media with a substantial increase in quality. Citizen's PAL DL transfer of ANH is my current favorite.

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Darth Richard:
Thanks for your help. I actually understood the difference before I came to the boards. The confusion stems from someone saying that the widescreen 4:3 versions would actually look better on standard tv's compared to the anamorphic, due to the down downconversion required on these older sets. This seemed to be confirmed IMO by the screenshots i.e. the first tr47 version looked slightly better to me than the screenshot from the anamorphic tr47.
So that's why I was confused and the anamorphic screenshots never seemed to look as good...at least from the pics I'd seen.


Originally posted by: zion
Welcome to the boards! Thanks for taking the time to do some research and make use of the sticky threads before posting. I wish we had more newbies like you.

zion...man thanks so much for your kind welcome and comments.
It's great to be accepted by such a fine and generous community. I tried to read up before posting...there's a hell of a lot to digest.


First:
The "viewable area" you refer to relies solely on the capture device used. Some capture cards clip more off the sides than others. I know that with my Winfast TV2000 XP card I am able to hack the settings and set my own clipping range, but most (none that I know) other capture devices don't have this ability.


OK...that explains a lot. I guess I could assume that the transfers are all capturing the "entire" image then.


Lastly:
If you don't have a widescreen television, you should consider a letterbox transfer such as either TR47/Cowclops v1.0 which has digital PCM sound, or the EditDroid transfer which in my opinion has a slightly better picture but no PCM sound. Both are excellent transfers though.

Newer transfers such as Citizen's releases are done on dual-layer media with a substantial increase in quality. Citizen's PAL DL transfer of ANH is my current favorite.


I do indeed have an ancient tv (for now...I think it's dying). But...with the number of transfers containing PCM sound being limited, my choices are going to be a lot easier anyway since I do want that feature. Of course after posting I read further and discovered the original stereo mixes have been captured from earlier laserdiscs, so now that (happy) wrench has been thrown in the works.
I really hope someone with optical ins/outs is able to combine the original stereo soundtrack PCM from earlier DVD with a widescreen image from another release.

thanks,
your ally in spirit (if not technology)

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Just to expand on some things that Zion mentioned:
Originally posted by: zion
The "viewable area" you refer to relies solely on the capture device used. It is also dependent on the laserdisc source used - e.g. in some scenes, the PAL discs have a more tightly cropped viewable area.
Originally posted by: zion
Both TR47/Cowclops transfers have the original PCM audio off the LDs.
I'd need to check, but I seem to recall that the TR47 set has PCM captured through analogue audio connections - therefore not a bit accurate copy of the original laserdisc PCM.
Originally posted by: zion
The advantage of an anamorphic transfer relies solely on the screen you view it on. Widescreen TVs benefit the most, as the anamorphic widescreen format was designed with them in mind. Standard analog 4:3 televisions will actually lose quality when showing an anamorphic image, as lines are actually clipped to scale the image down to size.
There is more discussion of letterboxed vs. anamorphic HERE.

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just tell him which picture looks the best, regardless of anamorphic or not
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On a standard TV "anamorphic or not" really isn't an issue. In theory you may lose quality, but if you have a decent DVD player it's not noticeable.

That's no moon. It's a LaserDisc.

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hes asking which version is better though, im banking on ocpmovies myself
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"On a standard TV "anamorphic or not" really isn't an issue. In theory you may lose quality, but if you have a decent DVD player it's not noticeable."

To many people, probably not. Technically, however, watching one of the LD anamorphic transfers on a standard TV is the worst combination possible. The LD transfer had to be upsized to anamorphic, which causes some loss in horizontal quality (which can be minimized by, for example, interpolation.) Now, if you play this transfer on a standard TV, the DVD player must remove this extra video information - that you just got done adding - in order for the picture to fit the screen.

Rather than go through this double-resizing of the video, which can easily result in artifacts, it's best to simply watch a letterbox SW DVD on a standard TV, and an anamorphic SW DVD on a widescreen TV.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Moth3r
I'd need to check, but I seem to recall that the TR47 set has PCM captured through analogue audio connections - therefore not a bit accurate copy of the original laserdisc PCM.
I recall somebody saying the TR47 v1 was distorted at its loudest parts, suggesting it was captured analog with the recording levels set too high clipping the peaks of the waveform.
I don't recall Cowclops ever saying which method he used for v2.


Even with a digital rip you'll get a 44.1kHz sample rate from the LD which will need to be resampled at 48kHZ for DVD, so the finished product will never be "a bit accurate copy of the orginal laserdisc PCM" anyway.
Since interpolation is involved, the quality of the software used would then come into play.
Big money professional software might well give better results than a freeware app.

An analog capture @48kHz through a professional soundcard (not the AC97 chip found on bargain-basement motherboards) might sound better than a digital rip processed by a poorly-coded resampling algorithm.


And unless I'm mistaken, I think only the newer discs have a digital soundtrack on them.
Analog capture is the only way to get the '77 stereo mix from the older LDs methinks.
Of course it should still be considered lossless, even if it's from an anolog capture, if it's in PCM format on DVD.
[And a digital rip would be considered lossy if it's later encoded to AC3 on DVD.]

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Tomland,

1) Although it is important, I wouldn't worry about viewable area as much as the other picture quality issues - you'll lose more due to the overscan of your ancient TV than the difference between any of the LD caps;

2) Both the TR47/Cowclops editions have PCM sound, I also remember hearing what Darth Mallwalker said about the clipping on v1 - I believe this was corrected on v2;

3) If you have a 4:3 TV, you definitely want a letterboxed transfer, not an anamorphised one - I'd still recommend the EditDroid in this category if you are in NTSC land;

4) Although bitrate is limited by the size of the media, Cowclops made the point that the source material, being soft analogue SD, is easily compressed and therefore DL media is not necessary, even if you want PCM sound. However, if you want to put together the best picture and sound on one disc from those that are already out there for 4:3 NTSC, you might look into combining the EditDroid picture with the Cowclops v2 sound, although this would probably push you into needing DL media. If you're not interested in or able to do re-authoring or DL burning, get TR47/Cowclops v1 or EditDroid for the best overall quality for your set-up (assuming you're NTSC and an OT purist).
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Originally posted by: THX
Tomland,

1) Although it is important, I wouldn't worry about viewable area as much as the other picture quality issues - you'll lose more due to the overscan of your ancient TV than the difference between any of the LD caps;

THX, OK...thank you. Another misconception I apparently had was that a 4:3 widescreen transfer from the ld's wouldn't involve any "manipulation" at all by my setup...it would just "play it" like a VHS tape.



2) Both the TR47/Cowclops editions have PCM sound, I also remember hearing what Darth Mallwalker said about the clipping on v1 - I believe this was corrected on v2;

3) If you have a 4:3 TV, you definitely want a letterboxed transfer, not an anamorphised one - I'd stillrecommend the EditDroid in this category if you are in NTSC land;

OK I'm definitely shooting for letterboxed at this point. I'd ruled out a lot of transfers because of the sound not being PCM (although from what I've seen, I might pick tr47 over EditDroid just based on picture alone).

Moth3r:
About what you (and THX) have said about the sound on the tr47 set being analogue...that does make it less appealing, but if the clipping isn't too frequent I'd probably shoot for it anyway.
And that's even though I can't stand digital clipping...VERY unpleasant experience. But compressed audio for Star Wars is definitely a "last resort" in my humble opinion.

So now from what I gather, there really isn't a transfer set available that has sound digitally transferred from ld?
MeBeJedi, I know you did this but the disc(s?) you made isn't readily available.

X0, where are you when I need you?

Darth Mallwalker,
If that's true about older laserdiscs not being able to utilize optical out, that's an eye opener for me. I'd assumed any laserdisc could pass digital audio out, assuming you had a player that supported it (like any CD can pass audio through a player that has digital-out).

So I guess no one will ever have digital audio transfer from the pre-85 releases...shucks.

Grinder:
Not sure about the quality of my player...it's a Sony changer with built-in DTS decoder and 5.1 analogue outs, so I love it, but it's not audiophile I'm sure.


4) Although bitrate is limited by the size of the media, Cowclops made the point that the source material, being soft analogue SD, is easily compressed and therefore DL media is not necessary, even if you want PCM sound. However, if you want to put together the best picture and sound on one disc from those that are already out there for 4:3 NTSC, you might look into combining the EditDroid picture with the Cowclops v2 sound, although this would probably push you into needing DL media. If you're not interested in or able to do re-authoring or DL burning, get TR47/Cowclops v1 or EditDroid for the best overall quality for your set-up (assuming you're NTSC and an OT purist).


I guess at this point I'm hoping to find Rowman or Cowclops v.1 (or even v.2) for sound reasons and because I unfortunately can't re-author (though I can burn DL).
Re: re-authoring, I would think someone would have combined MeBeJedi's digital audio rip with another picture source by now, but that's just me.
Maybe they're waiting for X0 like the rest of the natural world

Thanks everyone for your help!
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"Maybe they're waiting for X0 like the rest of the natural world "

That's because the X0 project is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be...unnatural.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Tomland Flash
THX, OK...thank you. Another misconception I apparently had was that a 4:3 widescreen transfer from the ld's wouldn't involve any "manipulation" at all by my setup...it would just "play it" like a VHS tape.


Sorry if I confused you further - your setup would indeed not manipulate it but just "play it" kind of like a VHS tape. However, a VHS tape also loses some picture information all around (right and left only for "letterboxed" a.k.a. "4:3 widescreen") on any traditional TV set. My point was that the capture framing was less important than the video image quality overall.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
"Maybe they're waiting for X0 like the rest of the natural world "

That's because the X0 project is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be...unnatural.


in that case, you may refer to me from now on as COMPLETELY SYNTHETIC.

THX,
np and thanks for clarifying again for me...it's slowly gelling in my head.
I guess I can get picky on having a "complete" image...that's one of my things I guess.
However, taking into consideration what you (or someone else?) said earlier about the screenshots not necessarily indicating the picture that's captured, and PAL vs. NTSC, etc...it did seem like the official DVD screenshots had a very marginally wider picture than any other pics. So if that's the case, I'm truly never going to have the "entire" image of the original films.
But hey, life goes on