¤ THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK ¤ The "OPTIMUM EDITION" Score Reconstruction, Remixing & Restoration Version 3 (Released) — Page 8

You're right... And this was the worst track for me on version 3. The problem was that I tried to muffle it as it was far too clear compared to the other cues. To notice this track really has a very specific sound (as all of them, finally) that bugged me. Then I worked more "against" it than "with" it.

Anyway, as you can see in my last post and thanks to the RSO CD things have been set alright... Even better: now I love this track ! That was a very difficult edit I tried and failed in the begining. It only needed a little more patience.

Version 4 won't be available before a while (cause I don't want to make a v5), so if you'd like a sample, just let me know.

k_bacon said:

Hi! Of course, a sample would be great :)

OK. I have to update a couple of samples anyway, just hold on.

I'm all out of CD-Rs to burn Disc 2 of v3, so I cant give feedback on that one just yet.

V3 CD2 has notably the best "Vader's Trap/Departure of Boba Fett" suite I can make. The track as quite the same clear sound from the beginning to the end what was not obvious to make ("Departure" has a quality above "Vader's Trap", wich is itself composed of 6 segments of slightly or more different qualities).

I point this because it may be different on version 4 on wich I plan to call back the background loud cellos for "Departure". It is even possible I separate the track... Then v3 may have his own little gems.

But those flat medium freqs from the Anthology... I hate them more and more.

... I just wanted to give something back to you, but if it's not your cup of tea, I fully understand :)

... Thank you for your comprehension :)

mangobyebye said:

Last year, I had the amazing opportunity to play with the London Symphony Orchestra in concert (I'm a horn player myself)...

 

So great to read that ! May I say horns and trumpets are my best guides to give back the breath to this orchestra and his music.

Your work on this score has really captured that sound, and that same energy and feeling that the Star Wars soundtracks are so famous for! So again, thank you so much for your excellent work...

Reading that from a musician who played with the London Symphony... Wow ! Can't tell you how I just feel right now. Thank you so much for having registered and let me know !

P.S.- I think my favorite change that is extremely apparent to me, is the "The Rebel Fleet/End Titles." I love the different cue used at the beginning...

Ah, you refer to the alternate (film version)... Whatever the version, the album one or the alternate, those are my preferate tracks. The alt version of the imperial march segment sounds a bit saturated or harsh though and I'm glad it doesn't seem to bother you. I won't be able to do better about it.

Also, one more note: I was playing around with some of the solos on horn, and I noticed that the pitch is actually pretty far off for most of the tracks on here (it seems torn directly between two pitches the whole time), so I was wondering if you have done anything to change the pitch of the score as a whole, or if it is just merely coincidence, or simply due to the materials you have to work with. However, this is just a minor thing, and it is nothing big to worry about, just a thought ;)

I didn't change anything unless it is mentioned in the remixing details. Most of the "changes" in that way are the LP layers I have to speed down (average between -0.3 and -1, what already makes big difference of changes from a track to another) to make them fit, most of the time with the Anthology. This is one of the most difficult part of the work and also the more "funny" somehow,  and the most reavealing when it matches. Anyway, only "Hyperspace" is at LP speed (x 0.835). It looked a little better to me as this.

If I had a bit of your knowledge with music I would surely correct the pitch on all the score ! However I know guitar a bit, so if the matter is just to be accorded I may be good at this (a new headache for me though) - Only it would be a mess if I mistake about the pitch I have to get closer.

The way I've constructed the whole set should show you how much chaos this score has endured through the many releases, and I had to be very organized myself to get there with the less transformations or processes other than equalizations.

PS: After having thought about it, a pitch correction would probably be possible by comparison of some sources as the C.Gerhardt recording where there are important cues. Also this pitch matter makes me think about a couple of tracks (CD2, tracks 3 to 6) wich would probably deserve such a change.

... and I eagerly await the next version whenever you come around to making it!

Yep, don't miss it.

msycamore said (about "Carbon Freeze" and the SE missing bit) :

Its placement on the SE is correct, you can even see when he conducted this part to the scene on the BBC documentary "STAR WARS - Music by John Williams". (a very good one, recommend it if you have not seen it)

... And said:

ABC, when I told you that the "Carbon Freeze" cue's placement on the SE CD is correct, it's both right and wrong.

The music was written for the scene, yes. But was dropped, so it's still an Alternate for the music that follows. So on the SE CD you have two parts of music describing the same scene after each other, it's nothing wrong to have it that way, but I would prefer to have one of them on an alternate version.

Just a thought, sorry for not describing it better.

 

I come back on that as I'm currently watching the BBC documentary. Not only the missing bit is well placed, but it is part of the "Carbon Freeze" track, as I feel when listening how they fit. My real grip with that missing bit is that it doesn't fit with the beginning of "Darth Vader's Trap" (what doesn't matter anymore as they are separated).

This missing bit then is going be given back to "Carbon Freeze" on Version 4.

That documentary is really great! and I agree with you, that alternate is a good fitting one and I think it works to have it both ways.

Yes, very instructive. And considering the way John Williams had to work on the score, I'm not surprised the two tracks don't match exactly. He couldn't score a 8min track in one stroke.

The two big editing changes I made on the OE are about the "Carbon Freeze" and Vader's Trap" suite, and "Jedi Master Revealed/Mynock Cave". A chance that the only sessions shown in the BBC documentary are about these ones !

I won't change my mind about the "Jedi Master Revealed" link with "Mynock Cave" as I edited them. However we can see that from the fanfare I removed to the end of "Mynock Cave" it is one entire cue. Then it is now obvious I'll have to place the entire cue in the bonus tracks. That's ok, you'll be able to appreciate both the new edit with the RSO track wich sounds powerful and the whole SE track wich sounds not bad at all.

Does anyone can tell why is a difference between the CD releases speed and the Film(s) score speed?

Also, I made a track (Carbon Freeze) match with the BBC documentary, and it matches 100% with the film track speed. I sped up at x4 !!! It is not a tiny difference: it changes all, even the sound. It may explain many things about the so huge differnces between the tracks.

Any help on that matter ?

I'm glad you can help me.

Well, about the movie there's a little problem: I'm in zone 2 (PAL), and someone stated in an other thread after I noticed how fast it was that it was normal and that if I would like to see the film at accurate speed I'd need zone 1 dvd.

Anyway I'll post two or three cues to let you compare very soon, probably this week end.

ABC what is this alternate you have been talking about?

fishmanlee said:

ABC what is this alternate you have been talking about?

 This is nothing you don't know I think. We call thus the added missing bit from the SE because it has been replaced in the film by the beginning of the next cue.

Edit: Err.. I'm not sure if I answered. It was about "Carbon Freeze", uh?

mangobyebye,

Here's a first one: a comparison between the Mynock Cave track session (that matches with the film speed and pitch), and the original SE track that I've sped up to a factor of 4... The BBC recording looks even faster:

Mynocks

Ooops, sorry for the double link, here's also the new edit for Mynock Cave with the RSO CD (a little faster than the original SE):  Mynocks Optimum (new)

Also, maybe - if you don't know the RSO LP's - You could check the blue link from my signature and grab the LP's transfers I'm using for my edit. If you say the pitch is correct on the LP's I'd be amazed (and would have some big work to do). Oh, and I'd recommend you listen what I've done with the 1977 SW...

And if any of these recordings really match or look convincing... Oh boy, I won't touch anything. Too hasardous, and I feel something is wrong when I touch this anyway.

___

EDIT: I've just compared two tracks:

-The Rebels Escape: the C.Gerhardt recording looks to have the same pitch than the RSO LP transfer. The Anthology version isn't that low however, but a little lower.

- Main Title: The RSO LP transfer is a little faster than the RSO CD, of almost nothing.

Also, as said before you may check "Hyperspace" on CD2 wich is at the same speed than the LP.

Thanks for your help, all this looks like a big headache.

Wow, thanks Tobar. I was searching such infos with no result. Now that I have confirmation my ears are quite bioionic (hey, 4%, I found that in 30sec :), it is possible I plan to correct the pitch where needed... That makes already two tracks that don't need it.

Well, thinking again about this again, I find strange I didn't have any pitch issues with the multi tracks edits I made between the Anthology, the SE and the RSO CD (Main Title, Training of a Jedi, Finale, and so...)

I discovered the pitch issue with another movie recently. One version played ~4 min. longer than the other one. First I thought of a missing scene but when I let them run together I noticed one version was gaining about half a minute in a quarter hour.

15 Minutes = 900 sec. ... x 0,04% = 36 sec.
so 4% makes the difference. Its actually the difference between NTSC (23,79 fps) and PAL (25 fps) if I am not mistaken.

The difference in speed is hardly noticable while watching the movie. In terms of soundtrack it must cause a real headache for poor ABC.

Well...

What I've just try: I increased the "Finale" to 4% and compared to the film version I have at that speed. Then the RSO version looked a little too fast. I tried to -1% and looks to match quite well. It's only a first try though.

Here's the cue for mangobyebye when you'll have time to check (and don't worry about the clipping, it's an "old" version):

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RZ4HKX26

OBI-WAN said:

The difference in speed is hardly noticable while watching the movie. In terms of soundtrack it must cause a real headache for poor ABC. 

Sure, not mentionning all the little parts edited together from different sources.

How comes that difference between 0,04% and 4% ? Sorry, I didn't catch your demonstration quite well.

I'm sure there is some pitch issues between the Albums but you can never compare the RSO finale with the film and expect it to match (except if you have the 70mm film version to look at) because it's another film version. The one that should match is oddly attached to "Ewok Celebration" on the 4th disc of the Anthology and that one is the 35mm film version of "finale" we all have on our precious "GOUT";) 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your last post, you probably know, but I just wanted you to know, so you don't work with that one in vain. The Finale/End Title can be a confusing one on that score.

msycamore said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your last post, you probably know, but I just wanted you to know, so you don't work with that one in vain. The Finale/End Title can be a confusing one on that score.

 

 I both agree and disagree: it is a different edit (or montage), but the partition should be the same. I mean that when I listen to the end Title explosion, the note should be the very same on both versions. And so for the rest of the cue, excepted perhaps the Alt March, though even if it is a different play, the partition should still match.

___

I've just made an interesting experiment: I re-made the film version edit of "Snowspeeders" (Hyperspace + Snowspeeders) this time with the actual tracks I have (RSO layered), and it was kind of ok, no more no less. Then I changed the "Snowspeeders" track speed to LP speed (1,28%), while "Hyperspace" is still at LP speed (0,84%) and... Bingo ! The percussion pitch between the two cues matches exactly for the edit (what means the Anthology tracks can't really match what is a little confirmed in my previous edit).

The exemple above is a good one to show how precise I work, as to show how much different are the speed changes between the Antho (Or SE wich is at the very same speed excepted for some processed parts) and the RSO. Is it due to the master tapes transfers wich have been so badly conserved ? I'm beginning to be sure it is. Then the RSO LP transfer may be the most fiable source about the speed. (To notice: only one cue - "City In The Clouds" - matched with the Anthology with almost no speed change).

The Finale on RSO LP is faster than my version (RSO CD), wich is itself faster than the film...! You talk of a headache !... Then I also wonder: is it possible they changed the pitch and speed on film version to make it fit with the crawl (wich must have been done to match the music, I know, but I expect anything)...

EDIT: Here again, I just compared the "Finale" from the C. Gerhardt recording with the RSO LP transfer and guess what ?... Same pitch. Then I suspect the film version of being too low. Following this feeling I may try to stick the closer as possible to the RSO LP but... There's a "but"... Some multi-tracks edits have different speeds: the new "Magic Tree" version I entirely layered with the LP had to be switched and speed converted in many parts to have his many segments match... !

... You don't imagine all the work that have been done since v3... You won't recognize the set, men ! So, am I ready to redo even a couple of layered tracks in the inverted way ?... The answer that comes in my mind is composed of two letters written in bold...

EDIT 2: Anyway, let me know mango if you found the LP's transfers. Otherwise I'll post the End Titles for you to check it. Thanks for this !

The calculation was about a movie I had two versions of with a difference in length of almost 4 minutes (total length more than 90 minutes).
15 Minutes = 900 sec. ... x 0,04 (4%) = 36 sec. differential in a quarter hour. This matches the difference between NTSC and PAL.

Oh OK, my bad. Obviously.

Obi-Wan's signature: *This Optimum Edition is now the ultimate power in the universe. I suggest we listen to it!*

So many thanks !