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Why the prequels shouldn't be about Anakin and Obi Wan

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Everybody except the most nostalgia-blinded people know that the prequels are atrocious. Said nostalgia-blinded people often cite that the prequels did everything they needed to do : explain the backstory of the original Star Wars trilogy. I believe this is the exact reason why the prequels fail.

The original trilogy thrived on mysteries. The people act like normal people. Knowledge of the setting flows organically from character to character, and when something greater is implied, it really makes your imagination wonder and just makes the galaxy seem vast (ex: C3P0 introduces himself as Human-Cyborg Relations, which implies relations between cyborgs and humans in the Star Wars universe is strained).

Darth Vader is the ultimate example of the less-is-more storytelling technique. You don’t show the character became the way that they are but you show they are affected by their own motivations. Darth Vader is a half-man half-robot master of evil who refers to himself (Anakin Skywalker) in the third person, fights his own son, and couldn’t even believe he could be redeemed until the last moments of Return of the Jedi.

The motivations needed to justify Darth Vader would have to be so incredibly strong that it is almost impossible, especially when the fans themselves create their own little stories that are better to them than anything anybody could come up with.

Even if Anakin’s fall was told really really well, it’s still just backstory and more of what we already know! Lucas dedicated three movies to ruining the mysteries of the original trilogy and failed even more miserably than anybody could expect!

So what do you do? Simple. Make a story that doesn’t just explain another story. Look at Knights of the Old Republic! It’s set in the past but isn’t defined by it. Forget the Clone Wars! What about the Sith Empire? Avoid spoiling any OT mysteries and just make a damn good story set before the OT!

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I disagree. I think that when you further establish the friendship of obi wan and Anakin it makes all the events in the OT mean more. This is obviously theoretically speaking (since the actual prequels did a terrible job of establishing them as friends).

By focusing on Anakins fall and the tradegy of it, his redemption in ROTJ means even more. So, merely explaining backstory isn’t a reason to focus on Obi Wan and Anakin but the true reason is to make so many aspects of the OT more emotionally resonant.

Do I wish the prequels didn’t focus on Obi Wan and Anakin? No.

Do I wish the prequels did the relationship more justice? Yes.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

Lord of the Rings: The Darth Rush Definitives

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I’ve thought about this a lot. And I realized that had the prequels not focused on anakin and Obi-wan, or shown in some capacity the fall of Darth Vader, people would have been immensely disappointed. Even if they were great films, we all maybe would have liked them, but been disappointed that we didn’t get what we had all been hoping for and imagining for 20 years.

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To me there is a freedom and opportunity in how one answers those questions. With Anakin and the original trilogy, all we know is that he was seduced by Palpatine and fell to the dark side, with some general comments about his friendship with Kenobi and status as a pilot. A good story can take those very base elements and craft an interesting examination of characters and settings with it. The story of Vader becomes what makes a good man go bad, same as what makes a Republic turn into an Empire.

Look at something like Godfather Part II, which while only part prequel is brilliant at giving Vito Corleone a detailed history which defines not only his character, but also serves as an effective contrast to that of Michael’s. The base concepts of what Episodes 1-3 wanted to do are not flawed in and of themselves; seeing where Anakin zigged where Luke zagged, getting an idea of what the Jedi were prior to the purge, and providing a window into what conditions allowed Palpatine to grab power. Their failure lies in the execution and answers to those questions being illogical, trite, or unrelatable to viewers.

Yes, the original films benefited from mystery and imaginative world building, but it also spoke to an audience because they connected to the characters. Leia was a strong (literal) rebel fighting for what she believed in, Luke a rural kid with big dreams wanting to make something of himself, Han the cynical wiseass with a hidden compassionate side to him. The prequels didn’t work to a great degree because they simply couldn’t create engaging people the audience was capable of getting into. Anakin moves from darling kid, to bratty teen, to murderous Sith, without ever feeling a person, doubly so with Padme who’s basically the generically good love interest to him and who exists to marry him, give him some kids, and get out of the way via dying.

Lucas was guilty of over-explanation with the prequels to a point, but the idea that no explanation of Vader and others would suffice strikes me as a copout, and ignores that many pieces of media and television have detailed the backstories of major and enigmatic characters, and still made it work because the meat lied in the journey not the destination.

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darthrush said:

I disagree. I think that when you further establish the friendship of obi wan and Anakin it makes all the events in the OT mean more. This is obviously theoretically speaking (since the actual prequels did a terrible job of establishing them as friends).

By focusing on Anakins fall and the tradegy of it, his redemption in ROTJ means even more. So, merely explaining backstory isn’t a reason to focus on Obi Wan and Anakin but the true reason is to make so many aspects of the OT more emotionally resonant.

Do I wish the prequels didn’t focus on Obi Wan and Anakin? No.

Do I wish the prequels did the relationship more justice? Yes.

Why do people make movies? Probably to make a good movie. NOT to make another movie better!

Hell, it doesn’t even make the movies better. Anything you imagine is the backstory of the OT is infinitely more compelling to you than what could be shown onscreen.

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Darth Lucas said:

I’ve thought about this a lot. And I realized that had the prequels not focused on anakin and Obi-wan, or shown in some capacity the fall of Darth Vader, people would have been immensely disappointed. Even if they were great films, we all maybe would have liked them, but been disappointed that we didn’t get what we had all been hoping for and imagining for 20 years.

Exactly. My approach can be a downer upon announcement and not so much later on, but the other ruins another set of movies and people’s imaginations.

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CWBorne said:

To me there is a freedom and opportunity in how one answers those questions. With Anakin and the original trilogy, all we know is that he was seduced by Palpatine and fell to the dark side, with some general comments about his friendship with Kenobi and status as a pilot. A good story can take those very base elements and craft an interesting examination of characters and settings with it. The story of Vader becomes what makes a good man go bad, same as what makes a Republic turn into an Empire.

Look at something like Godfather Part II, which while only part prequel is brilliant at giving Vito Corleone a detailed history which defines not only his character, but also serves as an effective contrast to that of Michael’s. The base concepts of what Episodes 1-3 wanted to do are not flawed in and of themselves; seeing where Anakin zigged where Luke zagged, getting an idea of what the Jedi were prior to the purge, and providing a window into what conditions allowed Palpatine to grab power. Their failure lies in the execution and answers to those questions being illogical, trite, or unrelatable to viewers.

Yes, the original films benefited from mystery and imaginative world building, but it also spoke to an audience because they connected to the characters. Leia was a strong (literal) rebel fighting for what she believed in, Luke a rural kid with big dreams wanting to make something of himself, Han the cynical wiseass with a hidden compassionate side to him. The prequels didn’t work to a great degree because they simply couldn’t create engaging people the audience was capable of getting into. Anakin moves from darling kid, to bratty teen, to murderous Sith, without ever feeling a person, doubly so with Padme who’s basically the generically good love interest to him and who exists to marry him, give him some kids, and get out of the way via dying.

Lucas was guilty of over-explanation with the prequels to a point, but the idea that no explanation of Vader and others would suffice strikes me as a copout, and ignores that many pieces of media and television have detailed the backstories of major and enigmatic characters, and still made it work because the meat lied in the journey not the destination.

Yeah, the story might be good but generations of fans would be bitch-slapped and anybody who doesn’t watch the movies chronologically would be screwed so as to not ruin mysteries that were never there.

First of all, the Godfather series is not a fantasy space opera that requires immersive world-building through mystery like Star Wars. EVERY fantasy story needs good world-building.

Second of all, it’s not like somebody said in the first Godfather(SPOILERS FOR PART 2), “Hey, remember the time your family died, you became an immigrant, killed a Don, and Michael was sick as a baby?” unless somebody did and I have terrible memory. I prefer Michael’s story anyway.

The following sentences are pure sarcasm. Yeah, let’s make good stories that ruin people’s imagination! That stuff is for kids and teenagers and adults and elderly people!

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BillionaireHobo287 said:

Darth Lucas said:

I’ve thought about this a lot. And I realized that had the prequels not focused on anakin and Obi-wan, or shown in some capacity the fall of Darth Vader, people would have been immensely disappointed. Even if they were great films, we all maybe would have liked them, but been disappointed that we didn’t get what we had all been hoping for and imagining for 20 years.

Exactly. My approach can be a downer upon announcement and not so much later on, but the other ruins another set of movies and people’s imaginations.

It doesn’t need to ruin anyone’s imagination. Yeah the prequels sucked, but if they were done well they very well could have expanded the imagination of the audience and given them new backstory and lore to imagine while enriching the experience of the ot. Now the prequels failed at this is most regards, but it could have been done.

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Darth Lucas said:

BillionaireHobo287 said:

Darth Lucas said:

I’ve thought about this a lot. And I realized that had the prequels not focused on anakin and Obi-wan, or shown in some capacity the fall of Darth Vader, people would have been immensely disappointed. Even if they were great films, we all maybe would have liked them, but been disappointed that we didn’t get what we had all been hoping for and imagining for 20 years.

Exactly. My approach can be a downer upon announcement and not so much later on, but the other ruins another set of movies and people’s imaginations.

It doesn’t need to ruin anyone’s imagination. Yeah the prequels sucked, but if they were done well they very well could have expanded the imagination of the audience and given them new backstory and lore to imagine while enriching the experience of the ot. Now the prequels failed at this is most regards, but it could have been done.

Please read all my posts. Everything I can argue has already been written in this thread.

Screw it! I’m writing a Sith Wars prequel trilogy alongside my sequel trilogy! You’ll see how wrong you guys are.

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I don’t think anyone is misunderstanding your points. We just have different opinions. I did read all your posts. No need to be a dick about it.

Nonetheless, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

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I think there was the possibility in 1999 of crafting a trilogy in the Clone Wars era without relying on many of the previously named characters, a story which would expand the Star Wars universe and people’s imaginations. Unfortunately Lucas went in the opposite direction and made a story which was over-reliant on name recognition and under-reliant on story. Remember that the ONLY thing that the prequels needed to be was to be designated as 1, 2, and 3 and come before the OT in chronology(and they didn’t even need to be that). There was no requirement that the prequels be connected via character or theme.

Unfortunately after Lucas made it clear that the entire saga (1-6) were going to be about the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, people then assumed that Skywalkers must be involved with every numbered episode. Now if someone proposes remaking the prequels without Anakin or Obi-wan, the story feels incomplete or misguided. This is the power of framing. Lucas was allowed to frame the discussion in terms of Anakin, and the only way that most casual viewers could see past the framing is if they were given a trilogy which was as imaginative as the OT without including these well-known characters.

Furthermore, if any alternate trilogy was made, it would be incredibly jarring to the general audiences unless the alternate prequels were made in continuity with the Lucas Prequels, since those are the films people are aware of from that time period. You would ironically be REQUIRED to make an alternate prequel focusing on Anakin and Obi-wan just to ‘set the record straight’ on their relationship before venturing into uncharted character territory.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Darth Lucas said:

I don’t think anyone is misunderstanding your points. We just have different opinions. I did read all your posts. No need to be a dick about it.

Nonetheless, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

This Discussion Category is deserted and nothing gets attention, so I put it in General Discussion. Just look for a thread about prequel reboots created by me, BillionaireHobo

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Here’s what I would have done:

Episode I sets up everything that follows in the rest of the saga. It’s a “Godfather 2” like blend of scenes that show how the rise of Palpatine in the “present” mirrors the initial rise of the Sith in the ancient past. We get to see the historical foundations of the Jedi/Sith and their conflict, in addition to beginning to set the stage for the more immediate “future” of the OT. Most of the movie would have been set in a similar-ish time to TPM (albeit not with all that crap with the Trade Federation and Naboo - basically a totally different story), but no kiddie Anakin or anything. The story instead just follows some Jedi (Obi-Wan included) as they begin to discover that the Sith might be returning. These scenes occasionally cut to scenes showing some of the ancient Jedi Order’s first conflict with the Sith. These flashbacks are short but are strategically inserted for relevance, perhaps as the Jedi research the history of the Sith. Their placement also hints at (but doesn’t explicitly reveal) that Palpatine is the Sith the Jedi are looking for in the “present.” Maybe at the end of the movie, we first see a young Anakin (who is already a padawan) in a brief cameo to set the stage for the next couple movies. Maybe show how he is selected to become Obi-Wan’s apprentice. But he is not the focus and he sure doesn’t accidentally blow up a ship.

Episode II shows, like AotC does, the beginnings of the Clone Wars and again focuses on Palpatine’s masterminding these events. However, this time give him a real reason for a war and make the stakes higher. Open the movie with a series of “false flag” terrorist attacks across the galaxy set up by Palpatine and made to look like they were carried out by an enemy (Separatists, whoever, doesn’t really matter - but don’t make the soldiers droids, make them real people). Palpatine also leaves hints that raise questions if the Jedi might have been in cohorts with them, setting the stage for his plan in the next movie. Meanwhile, we see Obi-Wan and Anakin’s friendship in full bloom now. Make their first scene an exciting action sequence on a Jedi mission where they save each others’ asses, not just some vague talk in an elevator about “a nest of gundarks.” Give them a real rapport and invest the audience in their friendship.

There can also be a “love story” here to show how Luke and Leia’s parents met, but make it just a minor subplot; maybe Anakin has to try to win a hard-to-get Padme (or whoever) over throughout the movie but doesn’t succeed until the end after he saves her or something, and their romance from then on out is implied. Again, establish a real rapport between the characters and make us care about their relationship. Don’t just tell us they are “in love” because. And skip all that shit about the Jedi not being allowed to love, there was no hint of this in the originals and it is stupid. Lucas seems to be under the impression that “forbidden” love is more romantic and meaningful, but this is not the case. Also give us actual hints that Anakin will turn to the Dark Side here. Show Palpatine beginning to manipulate him this early, show him beginning to research about the history of the Sith (put the “Darth Plagueis” thing here) and question whether the Jedi really are the “good guys,” etc. Make him doubtful and uneasy about the Jedi order.

Episode III skips ahead a few more years. Now the Clone Wars are at their height and the costs to the Republic are enormous. Terrorist attacks continue to be carried out regularly, and because the Clone Army is in short supply, men from around the galaxy must be drafted to supplement them. (Origin of Stormtroopers revealed here.) Basically, give the people a reason to be so concerned about the prospect of the war continuing that they would be willing to let Palpatine become a dictator to put a stop to it. Some clones and robots fighting each other doesn’t do that. We have to see actual consequences of the war on the people of the galaxy.

Otherwise, make the movie about Anakin’s fall as ROTS was, but make it more believable and pack more punch. Have Palpatine set up a complex machiavellian plan to make Anakin paranoid and convinced that the Jedi are out to betray him. Make Anakin feel highly protective about his family (have him already married at this point, and make Luke and Leia very young children - explains how Leia might remember her mother) and make him truly believe that the Jedi are planning to kill them. Perhaps have Palpatine point out that in the ancient past, the Jedi would “euthanize” children who showed signs that they might become too powerful and unstable, and suggest that Luke might be one such child himself and the Jedi–who are closely monitoring the children’s development–would be willing to do so again.

In fact, have Palpatine attempt to have a “Jedi” who is actually his apprentice infiltrating the organization attempt to kill Luke himself, and then have Anakin duel with and eventually kill this “Jedi,” unknowingly setting himself up to become the next Sith apprentice. Palpatine then reveals to Anakin that he is a Sith, and didn’t tell him earlier because he wanted him to discover for himself that the Sith were really “the good guys” and he had been “brainwashed” by the Jedi. Have him then tell Anakin that the Jedi were behind the terrorist attacks and the war, showing him the “proof” he planted in the last movie. Have him use all this to convince Anakin to join him and help him hunt down the Jedi - starting with Obi-Wan, to prove his loyalty. Anakin then runs to confront his friend and master, feeling extremely conflicted until, like in ROTS, he becomes convinced that Obi-Wan is attempting to turn Padme against him or even to “help” the Jedi kill his family.

Have Padme actually die as a casualty in the ensuing struggle between Anakin and Obi-Wan, driving Anakin to full-blown rage and pushing him all the way over the edge to the dark side. But in his passion, he makes mistakes and… he falls into lava or whatever. Have the movie end with Palpatine having his armies hunt down the Jedi (no “Order 66” crap though, and make the Jedi formidable opponents who don’t go down easily, and more than just Obi-Wan and Yoda go into hiding - set the stage for some EU stuff in between trilogies), taking power as the Emperor, and Obi-Wan and Yoda putting Luke/Leia into hiding. But Anakin, when he is revived as Vader, is told by Palpatine that they were killed by the Jedi, firmly burying any last hint of conflict within him and sending him into deep regret, giving him true motivation to help hunt down the remaining Jedi. This also explains how Vader did not know Leia was alive in the last movie and why he asks Palpatine how it is possible Luke was alive. Palpatine also kind of screws himself here, as his lie comes back to bite him in the OT when Vader begins to question whether he had been used once he discovers the truth. This may even explain why he wanted to overthrow Palpatine with Luke - it had really always been about his family to begin with.

The parallel between Anakin turning to the Dark Side and killing (who he believed) was a Jedi to save Luke and then turning back to the light and killing Palpatine in ROTJ for the exact same reason is also made stronger and more explicit this way. It also makes Vader a somewhat more sympathetic character who doesn’t look quite as stupid in how he was brainwashed and manipulated by Palpatine. It makes his actions and motivations a lot more understandable.

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Density said:

Here’s what I would have done:

Episode I sets up everything that follows in the rest of the saga. It’s a “Godfather 2” like blend of scenes that show how the rise of Palpatine in the “present” mirrors the initial rise of the Sith in the ancient past. We get to see the historical foundations of the Jedi/Sith and their conflict, in addition to beginning to set the stage for the more immediate “future” of the OT. Most of the movie would have been set in a similar-ish time to TPM (albeit not with all that crap with the Trade Federation and Naboo - basically a totally different story), but no kiddie Anakin or anything. The story instead just follows some Jedi (Obi-Wan included) as they begin to discover that the Sith might be returning. These scenes occasionally cut to scenes showing some of the ancient Jedi Order’s first conflict with the Sith. These flashbacks are short but are strategically inserted for relevance, perhaps as the Jedi research the history of the Sith. Their placement also hints at (but doesn’t explicitly reveal) that Palpatine is the Sith the Jedi are looking for in the “present.” Maybe at the end of the movie, we first see a young Anakin (who is already a padawan) in a brief cameo to set the stage for the next couple movies. Maybe show how he is selected to become Obi-Wan’s apprentice. But he is not the focus and he sure doesn’t accidentally blow up a ship.

Episode II shows, like AotC does, the beginnings of the Clone Wars and again focuses on Palpatine’s masterminding these events. However, this time give him a real reason for a war and make the stakes higher. Open the movie with a series of “false flag” terrorist attacks across the galaxy set up by Palpatine and made to look like they were carried out by an enemy (Separatists, whoever, doesn’t really matter - but don’t make the soldiers droids, make them real people). Palpatine also leaves hints that raise questions if the Jedi might have been in cohorts with them, setting the stage for his plan in the next movie. Meanwhile, we see Obi-Wan and Anakin’s friendship in full bloom now. Make their first scene an exciting action sequence on a Jedi mission where they save each others’ asses, not just some vague talk in an elevator about “a nest of gundarks.” Give them a real rapport and invest the audience in their friendship.

There can also be a “love story” here to show how Luke and Leia’s parents met, but make it just a minor subplot; maybe Anakin has to try to win a hard-to-get Padme (or whoever) over throughout the movie but doesn’t succeed until the end after he saves her or something, and their romance from then on out is implied. Again, establish a real rapport between the characters and make us care about their relationship. Don’t just tell us they are “in love” because. And skip all that shit about the Jedi not being allowed to love, there was no hint of this in the originals and it is stupid. Lucas seems to be under the impression that “forbidden” love is more romantic and meaningful, but this is not the case. Also give us actual hints that Anakin will turn to the Dark Side here. Show Palpatine beginning to manipulate him this early, show him beginning to research about the history of the Sith (put the “Darth Plagueis” thing here) and question whether the Jedi really are the “good guys,” etc. Make him doubtful and uneasy about the Jedi order.

Episode III skips ahead a few more years. Now the Clone Wars are at their height and the costs to the Republic are enormous. Terrorist attacks continue to be carried out regularly, and because the Clone Army is in short supply, men from around the galaxy must be drafted to supplement them. (Origin of Stormtroopers revealed here.) Basically, give the people a reason to be so concerned about the prospect of the war continuing that they would be willing to let Palpatine become a dictator to put a stop to it. Some clones and robots fighting each other doesn’t do that. We have to see actual consequences of the war on the people of the galaxy.

Otherwise, make the movie about Anakin’s fall as ROTS was, but make it more believable and pack more punch. Have Palpatine set up a complex machiavellian plan to make Anakin paranoid and convinced that the Jedi are out to betray him. Make Anakin feel highly protective about his family (have him already married at this point, and make Luke and Leia very young children - explains how Leia might remember her mother) and make him truly believe that the Jedi are planning to kill them. Perhaps have Palpatine point out that in the ancient past, the Jedi would “euthanize” children who showed signs that they might become too powerful and unstable, and suggest that Luke might be one such child himself and the Jedi–who are closely monitoring the children’s development–would be willing to do so again.

In fact, have Palpatine attempt to have a “Jedi” who is actually his apprentice infiltrating the organization attempt to kill Luke himself, and then have Anakin duel with and eventually kill this “Jedi,” unknowingly setting himself up to become the next Sith apprentice. Palpatine then reveals to Anakin that he is a Sith, and didn’t tell him earlier because he wanted him to discover for himself that the Sith were really “the good guys” and he had been “brainwashed” by the Jedi. Have him then tell Anakin that the Jedi were behind the terrorist attacks and the war, showing him the “proof” he planted in the last movie. Have him use all this to convince Anakin to join him and help him hunt down the Jedi - starting with Obi-myWan, to prove his loyalty. Anakin then runs to confront his friend and master, feeling extremely conflicted until, like in ROTS, he becomes convinced that Obi-Wan is attempting to turn Padme against him or even to “help” the Jedi kill his family.

Have Padme actually die as a casualty in the ensuing struggle between Anakin and Obi-Wan, driving Anakin to full-blown rage and pushing him all the way over the edge to the dark side. But in his passion, he makes mistakes and… he falls into lava or whatever. Have the movie end with Palpatine having his armies hunt down the Jedi (no “Order 66” crap though, and make the Jedi formidable opponents who don’t go down easily, and more than just Obi-Wan and Yoda go into hiding - set the stage for some EU stuff in between trilogies), taking power as the Emperor, and Obi-Wan and Yoda putting Luke/Leia into hiding. But Anakin, when he is revived as Vader, is told by Palpatine that they were killed by the Jedi, firmly burying any last hint of conflict within him and sending him into deep regret, giving him true motivation to help hunt down the remaining Jedi. This also explains how Vader did not know Leia was alive in the last movie and why he asks Palpatine how it is possible Luke was alive. Palpatine also kind of screws himself here, as his lie comes back to bite him in the OT when Vader begins to question whether he had been used once he discovers the truth. This may even explain why he wanted to overthrow Palpatine with Luke - it had really always been about his family to begin with.

The parallel between Anakin turning to the Dark Side and killing (who he believed) was a Jedi to save Luke and then turning back to the light and killing Palpatine in ROTJ for the exact same reason is also made stronger and more explicit this way. It also makes Vader a somewhat more sympathetic character who doesn’t look quite as stupid in how he was brainwashed and manipulated by Palpatine. It makes his actions and motivations a lot more understandable.

Aside from the Godfather 2 structure and parallels, Episode 1 seems terribly uninspired because little is explained in detail.

I don’t like that Vader fell to the dark side because of misunderstandings and lies. You know people can’t write good motivations when they do this! Look at Batman v Superman. It’s a forced gimmick that required misunderstandings (cheapest motivation ever) to make it work, it feels just as forced here. I also don’t like the Darth Plageius/Revenge of the Sith motivation because it makes him look like a dick! I understand why he would fall to the dark side after hearing the story of Plageius, but being the unrelentingly evil Vader? No way!

I like the stormtrooper origin story. I don’t like the idea of euthanizing because it implies the Force as a superpower like in the prequels rather than spiritual enlightenment like the original trilogy. You don’t kill a person for having the potential to be good.

Vader NEEDS to be brainwashed if you want to keep him the same as in the OT: Unclear and left to the imagination. The lack of agency sometimes makes things more tragic because it makes the victim look like a better person.

Pretty much this was a waste of time that I condoned even in the title. This is revenge, huh? Lol