Sign In

Why Rogue One doesn't work well as a prequel to Star Wars — Page 3

Author
Time
 (Edited)

JadedSkywalker said:

I mean its a sequel to Revenge of the Sith. It even has Jimmy Smits and prequel Mon Mothma Genevieve O’Reilly.

I like to think of the film as a great bridge between prequels and the OT. I always had a hard time reconciling the different aesthetics and Rogue One helped me a lot.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

Author
Time

JadedSkywalker said:

It didn’t feel out of character of the Vader we see in Revenge of the Sith who cut down younglings. It doesn’t fit Vader in the original film though.

I mean its a sequel to Revenge of the Sith. It even has Jimmy Smits and prequel Mon Mothma Genevieve O’Reilly.

Both of them will be in the Andor and Kenobi series which connects the main story even further.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I think the hallway scene was a mistake. It’s clear it was intended to be this gratuitous fan service that people would get excited watching, which is rather tone-deaf given the sad deaths of the main characters that occurred just a minute before. It reflects a lack of confidence in the new characters by Lucasfilm, who must have thought that audiences wouldn’t be sufficiently emotional about Jyn and Cassian’s deaths, so they felt the need to give the ending more “oomph” by adding the hallway scene and pumping up the audience right before the credits rolled.

The scene reduces Vader to a silent, hack-and-slash murder machine, which isn’t at all what Vader was in the OT. And I agree with that Reddit user that George never intended for villains like Vader or Palpatine to be “cool.” At his core, Vader is a pitiable character. We’re not supposed to think of him as a badass, or get excited at seeing him commit evil acts, but that’s clearly what Rogue One wanted.

And of course, the hallway scene, and Leia’s presence at the Battle, are the two main reasons why the ending doesn’t line up well with ANH.

Author
Time

Servii said:

I think the hallway scene was a mistake. It’s clear it was intended to be this gratuitous fan service that people would get excited watching, which is rather tone-deaf given the sad deaths of the main characters that occurred just a minute before. It reflects a lack of confidence in the new characters by Lucasfilm, who must have thought that audiences wouldn’t be sufficiently emotional about Jyn and Cassian’s deaths, so they felt the need to give the ending more “oomph” by adding the hallway scene and pumping up the audience right before the credits rolled.

The scene reduces Vader to a silent, hack-and-slash murder machine, which isn’t at all what Vader was in the OT. And I agree with that Reddit user that George never intended for villains like Vader or Palpatine to be “cool.” At his core, Vader is a pitiable character. We’re not supposed to think of him as a badass, or get excited at seeing him commit evil acts, but that’s clearly what Rogue One wanted.

And of course, the hallway scene, and Leia’s presence at the Battle, are the two main reasons why the ending doesn’t line up well with ANH.

Vader went after Luke and even chopped his hand off when he got frustrated, if it wasn’t for the fact he was his son, he would have chopped him up or something even worse. I like to think Vader had that hatred in him. It’s the number one reason the galaxy fears The Emperor and his right hand slave Vader.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Vader was playing with Luke in The Empire Strikes Back. Like a cat playing with a mouse. He could have easily have killed him, he was the far superior swordsman. Luke was impelled by his hate and reckless and got in one lucky strike of his lightsaber. Vader was corrupting him tempting him to cross over to the dark side and Luke nearly did. In the next film Return of the Jedi Luke wears all black like his father and has a machine hand just like his father. And his first act in that film is to get Revenge on Jabba and to rescue Han Solo.

Ultimately in the Throne room he makes the choice to not kill his father and throws away his lightsaber when he realizes he is turning into Vader.

The war is only won when Anakin throws Palpatine down the reactor core in a final act of defiance. Its too bad it was undone by the Rise of Skywalker.

It is an act of faith when Luke is willing to stake his life on the good in his father, he wills the spark of light within Anakin into existence with his belief, when he proudly proclaims to Palpatine i am a Jedi like my father before me. If he had been wrong wow he just would have been cooked by Palpatine’s force lightning.

As for Rogue One i liked the design esthetic and how it looked the most Star Wars of anything since Empire. The writing and directing and the shaky cam weren’t really very Star Warsy. But the soundtrack was pretty close even if it wasn’t John Williams. And it doesn’t suffer from being poorly lit like Solo. Also like Last Jedi the digital models are really good they are as good as you are going to get with cgi, the only way to get better detail would be physical models. Leia and Tarkin look like they are out of a videogame though. There is something about them that isn’t quite believable while Leia in Episode 9 was. Vader’s design was correct even down to his lenses being red like in Star Wars.

What i missed was it seemed to get to the edge of being really gritty and bold and it held back. I wanted to see more of the more rogue and dirty aspect of the rebellion, wanted to see more of Saw.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

JadedSkywalker said:

It didn’t feel out of character of the Vader we see in Revenge of the Sith who cut down younglings. It doesn’t fit Vader in the original film though.

I find it to be more equivalent to the cutting down of the Separatist leaders on Mustafar as we never actually see him cut down the younglings. In the former sense it does work.

My problem with it is more to do with that he’s supposed to be more machine than man. His movements are very fluid for someone who has each limb as mechanical. He’s much more restricted in his fights with Obi-Wan and Luke versus what is showed in the hallway. I also don’t feel it fits his character as by the time of A New Hope he’s overcompensating with intimidation and fear through force. Pun not intended. Haha. He’s grown into his role as an enforcer through fear compared to where he was when he pledged himself to the Sith. At that point he was doing what he thought was right to save the ones he loved. He would’ve done anything at that point but that changed when he believed he lost everything. He realised he couldn’t go back to what he was before and continued his commitment to the Dark Side.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

Author
Time

CarboniteSolo said:

Vader was only trying to get the plans that were stolen. All these people were in his way shooting at him, it’s either sit there and let the firing squad kill him, or mow them down with a lightsaber. I myself, in that situation would have done the same thing.

Because if he loses the plans, he has to face the Emperor and the consequences for failing.

Darth Vader’s a fictional character though, justifying a story decision with in-universe facts doesn’t work. The writers could have just not had that be the case.

Death of the Author

Author
Time

SparkySywer said:

CarboniteSolo said:

Vader was only trying to get the plans that were stolen. All these people were in his way shooting at him, it’s either sit there and let the firing squad kill him, or mow them down with a lightsaber. I myself, in that situation would have done the same thing.

Because if he loses the plans, he has to face the Emperor and the consequences for failing.

Darth Vader’s a fictional character though, justifying a story decision with in-universe facts doesn’t work. The writers could have just not had that be the case.

Imagine if a WW2 movie, which people like to reference to RO, ended with a scene in which a Gestapo agent slaughtered a bunch of resistance fighters. And then people cheered.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I’m working on a personal edit of Rogue One to bring it more in line with ANH. The ending is indeed problematic. Makes no sense for Vader to see the data disc being handled. He’d simply use the force to get it. And he can’t be aware of the Tantive specifically (must be a ship amongst others).

So Vader in the hallway must be cut (possibly moving it to an ANH edit). From dialog Vader was supposed to handle the rebel fleet, so that’s what he should do - just like in ANH, he should get into his Tie fighter and engage in the space battle. Might be possible to create such a sequence by repurposing some ANH footage.

This way we can still see the disc changing hands (makes sense to be handled manually, no logs or computer records), the Tantive leaving and Leia getting the plans.
In this context, Leia sort of becomes one of the spies mentioned, carrying on the mission into ANH.

I love the movie but it does require some tweaking if you want to watch it back to back with ANH !

Author
Time

I think if one wanted to remove this apparent contradiction between RO and ANH in an edit, you could add some new off-screen dialogue during the first shots of Vader on the bridge, where we hear some Imperial officers say something like:

Officer 1: Sir, the rebel flagship is sending a transmission.

Officer 2: Track it!

Then, when Jyn and Cassian die, you fade to white and that is the last we see of Scarif. When we fade back in, it would be the shot of the Tantive IV somewhere in space. Now we can just assume the rebels beamed the plans to them from an unknown secondary location.

I like this idea, but I can already imagine people being like, “So you removed the best scene in the movie?!”

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

I think if one wanted to remove this apparent contradiction between RO and ANH in an edit, you could add some new off-screen dialogue during the first shots of Vader on the bridge, where we hear some Imperial officers say something like:

Officer 1: Sir, the rebel flagship is sending a transmission.

Officer 2: Track it!

Then, when Jyn and Cassian die, you fade to white and that is the last we see of Scarif. When we fade back in, it would be the shot of the Tantive IV somewhere in space. Now we can just assume the rebels beamed the plans to them from an unknown secondary location.

I like this idea, but I can already imagine people being like, “So you removed the best scene in the movie?!”

That would be great. Losing the hallway scene is a small price to pay.

Author
Time

As many have posted previously, it’s weird that people cheer on Vader slaughtering a bunch of frightened rebels who are clearly no match for him. It’s like people cheering on an authoritarian government enforcer gunning down innocent civilians.

Author
Time

fmalover said:

As many have posted previously, it’s weird that people cheer on Vader slaughtering a bunch of frightened rebels who are clearly no match for him. It’s like people cheering on an authoritarian government enforcer gunning down innocent civilians.

I think you misunderstand people’s reaction to this scene. People like it because it shows a villain being very villainous. He’s intimidating, scary, and brutal. It’s the same kind of gut reaction people have to any “good” villain. People don’t “cheer” for the Joker, but they love it when he’s frightening and a menacing adversary for the hero. It’s fantasy. The worse a villain is the better the heroes get to be. Enjoying a good “bad guy being bad” scene is definitely not the same as cheering on Stalin or Mussolini. I find it difficult to grasp how some Star Wars fans don’t understand the appeal of a really vile villain.

Also, it’s an exciting action scene with lots of cool force powers and stuff. People don’t cheer for Voldemort but they sure like watching him use all his magic. It’s a spectacle.

You could also relate it to watching a slasher film. There’s a LOOOOOOONNNGGGGG history of people enjoying watching/reading terrible things in their entertainment. I’m sure there’s some deep psychological explanations but the bottom line is people have always been entertained by awful things.

Author
Time

I don’t know, I still feel like it’s definitely new for Star Wars that they’re trying to entertain us with Slasher Vader. We don’t see Slasher Vader in the OT, and it’s not a coincidence. They could’ve treated Hoth like the Rogue One hallway scene, but they don’t.

An important theme in the OT, which is somewhat continued in the PT and ST, is that the dark side isn’t badass. It isn’t spectacular. It’s deranged and pathetic. It’s definitely a little different that Rogue One and Mando focus on both heroes and villains murking mooks.

Death of the Author

Author
Time
 (Edited)

If you wanted to leave the hallway scene, you could just move the bit where the crew is downloading the plans onto the floppy disk and place it after the hallway scene. In this way it is assumed that the plans needed to be transferred to disc before being hand-delivered to the transmission site on the ship (or perhaps the primary comms were damaged and they need to use a backup, whatever). Then you could have a shot establishing the Tantive IV on the opposite side of Scarif or in deep space like RJ suggested receiving the plans and jumping to Hyperspace.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

Author
Time

Let’s see… where to begin…

Between 1977 and 2016, Star Wars went from a stand alone film to the 4th film of the saga. So character motivations changed a lot. We got Anikin and Obi-wan’s back stories. But even back in 1977, Vader wasn’t the real bad guy of the film, Tarkin was. Vader was the face of evil. The man on Tarkin’s right hand. An independent opearator working for the Emperor and assigned to help Tarkin. A man on a mission to find the missing plans (which he failed to do, though his plan to track Leia to the rebel base was genius).

So let’s look at what Vader did in the OT. He did not lead the attack on the Tantive IV. He sent the stormtroopers to take the ship. With the ship captured there was no place to run. The gunners were on task to destroy any escape pod so no one could get away. They didn’t destroy the one because it had not life forms an they didn’t have orders for that.

In TESB Vader is leading the attack on the Hoth Base. We don’t see him even draw his light saber… because the base has been abandoned. There is no one there. He reaches the Falcon just as it takes off.

In ROTJ, Vader is under the personal command of the Emperor. He is reduced from being the big bad guy to being a servant. He is following orders and frankly is not nearly as scary as Palpatine. He fights Luke at his master’s orders.

Now, what else do we have to show how Vader might fight with a light saber. Well, we the PT. In three films we see how Jedi fight battle droids. They chop them, they dice them, they pick them up and throw them. And after his turn to the dark side, the first thing Vader does is slaughter the younglings (and who knows how many padawn, knights, and masters) in the temple.

So we come into Rogue One with a working knowledge of how Anakin/Vader fights and what tactics he would use. What we see in the Hallway is EXACTLY that. He has no chance to do that in the OT. But in Rogue One, he is on the trail (for his masters the Emperor and Tarkin) of stolen plans and their recovery is vital. So he will stop at nothing to get them and it is too important to leave to stormtroopers. So the hallway slaughter makes total sense from what we see. This is the powerful and unstopable Lord Vader whose reputation preceeded him in the OT. It is events like this that made him feared. We see very little in the OT that inspired fear. Vader has been a popular bad guy since he first appeared in 1977. The hallway scene is the first chance to see Vader in action. It bridges how Anakin slaughtered battle droids to the reputation Vader has in the OT. And it also fits with how Obi-wan likes to disarm people.

People have been cheering Vader since 1977. The reaction to his appearance in Rogue One is just a natural continuation of that.

The end of Rogue One doesn’t really alter anything about A New Hope. The Tantive IV was not seen in the battle. The ship drops out of the hanger and flees and Vader has to get back to his ship and track them down. There may be no proof of what ship it is (they are a common class of ship after all). And the nature of the plans and how they got into Leia’s hands doesn’t contradict A New Hope either. Leia physically inserts the plans into R2. Sure there was a transmission, but it was put on physical media. So the spies transmitted the plans and Leia had them and is hiding where they went. Does it exactly match the dialog? Probably not, but neither do other conversations in Star Wars and so many in real life.

As for the word spies. Rogue One is, underneath everything, a WWII under cover mission movie where everyone dies. The Vader and Leia scenes at the end exist to give fans an uplifting ending after watching all the Rogue One team members die various deaths. In a time of war, any operative working for the other side is a spy. I never pictured a James Bond type of spy situation. I always pictured a team like we see in Rogue One, though I never though about if they had lived or not.

So I think Rogue One fits perfectly between ROTS and ANH. It adds to ANH without detracting or contradicting anything. It showcases Darth Vader as a badass who has built a reputation as a feared figure. It shows us a team of rebels who steals the plans and the very successful battle that most of the rebels went home from. They lost a few fighters and one capital ship (which was staying to receive the transmission), but most of the ships went home and the ones that went back to Yavin IV would soon fly their next mission against the Death Star.

And I feel it is very appropriate to cheer a bad guy when he is doing something cool and you know how his story is going to end. It doesn’t mean you are sick in the head, only that what you are seeing on screen is really cool and really fleshes out the character even more. And Like I said, what Vader did in that hallway is what we saw Anakin do many times (many many many times if you watch Clone Wars) before to battle droids. Why would the evil dark Lord of the Sith treat rebel soldiers any different than battle droids? That hallway scene to me, cemented Vader’s reputation and how committed he was to the cause and how evil he had become. And so much of that was only conveyed by Kenobi in dialog and never shown before, “a student of mine until he turned to evil” and “he betrayed and murdered your father.” So it is a glorious spectacle that so many Star Wars fans reveled in, not because they don’t side with the rebellion, but because we got to see that evil brought to life and see how truly feared Vader should be.

And as for Rebels, they do not have success after success. They have many successes, but they are all small. No serious conflicts. Lothal is only freed after many setbacks and the cost of one of the main characters. And again, we get to see Darth Vader do what Kenobi said he had done, hunting down and trying to destroy Jedi. So everything in Rebels and Rogue one goes back to what we found out in 1977 and was elaborated by the following 5 movies.

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

If you wanted to leave the hallway scene, you could just move the bit where the crew is downloading the plans onto the floppy disk and place it after the hallway scene. In this way it is assumed that the plans needed to be transferred to disc before being hand-delivered to the transmission site on the ship (or perhaps the primary comms were damaged and they need to use a backup, whatever). Then you could have a shot establishing the Tantive IV on the opposite side of Scarif or in deep space like RJ suggested receiving the plans and jumping to Hyperspace.

Something like that perhaps. Indeed the hallway scene might be edited to show the disc changing hands before Vader arrives. Some rebels are left behind to stall Vader while the Tantive manages to escape.
As long as Vader doesn’t notice the disc things line up well with ANH.

As others mentioned the scene is important to complete Vader’s arc from the PT, so it should be in if possible.
Thanks for the suggestions and discussion, it’s helpfull.

Author
Time

4throck said:

NeverarGreat said:

As others mentioned the scene is important to complete Vader’s arc from the PT, so it should be in if possible.
Thanks for the suggestions and discussion, it’s helpfull.

Except it really isn’t. Like, at all.

On an idealistic level, I hate that scene with a burning passion. It represents all that the meatheads of the fan base want from the movies – two hours of people getting chopped up by lightsabers with no sense of magic or wonder in the fictional world. No proper character conflict or development, just Vader slashing people up for the pure visual spectacle. Heck, Luke’s re-introduction in The Mandalorian commits the same sin and those same people cling to it.

The hallway scene is the worst moment in the saga and deserves to be cut.

Author
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

4throck said:

NeverarGreat said:

As others mentioned the scene is important to complete Vader’s arc from the PT, so it should be in if possible.
Thanks for the suggestions and discussion, it’s helpfull.

Except it really isn’t. Like, at all.

On an idealistic level, I hate that scene with a burning passion. It represents all that the meatheads of the fan base want from the movies – two hours of people getting chopped up by lightsabers with no sense of magic or wonder in the fictional world. No proper character conflict or development, just Vader slashing people up for the pure visual spectacle. Heck, Luke’s re-introduction in The Mandalorian commits the same sin and those same people cling to it.

The hallway scene is the worst moment in the saga and deserves to be cut.

Right. That’s all us “meatheads” want. That two hour (really? last I checked it was a few seconds of action) segment of Vader mercilessly murdering innocent civilians, not taking on a whole squad of enemy soldiers single handedly. Heck, why don’t we make the original film finale an hour long aerial battle and trench run. Because its exciting and we love seeing those rebel pilots bite the dust in lavish explosions.

How’s the view from that high horse, anyway?

Author
Time

Meh, the hallway scene still sucks. The Fandom Menace’s adoration for the moment ruined it for me.

Author
Time

That’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Love the scene, hate it, whatever floats your boat. But if you’re going to discuss it, then reasonably discuss your opinion and back it up with evidence or explanation. Don’t resort to just throwing out insults at the people you disagree with.

Author
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

Heck, Luke’s re-introduction in The Mandalorian commits the same sin and those same people cling to it

What truly soured the scene for me were all the online comments throwing shade at Rian Johnson about how this is the Luke Skywalker we wanted to see in TLJ.

I mean, grow the fuck up.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

fmalover said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Heck, Luke’s re-introduction in The Mandalorian commits the same sin and those same people cling to it

What truly soured the scene for me were all the online comments throwing shade at Rian Johnson about how this is the Luke Skywalker we wanted to see in TLJ.

I mean, grow the fuck up.

I mean, even in the behind-the-scenes, Mark Hamill was visibly more enthusiastic about his little cameo than he was about his role in TLJ. I didn’t much care for how Mandalorian depicted him, but I understand the sentiment a lot of people feel. People want Luke to be a do-gooder. They want him to be a decent person who rights wrongs and steps into the fray to help people in need.

Of course, there were also some shallower people who just wanted to see Luke do flashy lightsaber stuff, and maybe that’s all the writers were really thinking of when they wrote it. I don’t know. But that’s never why Luke (or Vader) was a good character.

But I can understand why people like StarWarsTheory got choked up at seeing “the real Luke” onscreen again. Some people were just wowed by the flashy action, but for others like him, they saw it as Luke being aspirational again.

Author
Time

The first time we see Jedi in slasher mode is in Return of the Jedi. Then again in The Phantom Menace. How many battle droids ended on the blades of the Jedi? The hallway scenes of Vader and Luke just fit in with this.

Frankly, if you don’t like them just because other fans do, that is pretty silly. You should like or dislike things for how you feel about them, not because of what other people feel. These two scenes are popular because they show how powerful the father and son are and how formidible one Jedi can be. Something that was shown over and over in the Clone Wars and the PT.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Vader’s redemption starts on ANH when he senses Obi-Wan. Something changes, and he adopts a more restrained fighting style after that point. But before that, he’s quite violent, even on ANH. So the RO scene is perfectly in character I think - we are seeing the prequel Vader.