hairy_hen said:
Even if they can handwave it away as not technically being a direct contradiction, it still doesn't jive with the intent and tonal presentation of what is said in ESB.
Obi-wan's choice of wording implies that Yoda instructed him one on one, the same way that Luke is taught.
I don't see that.
"Mr. Phelps was the teacher who taught me woodworking." Does not imply one on one instruction.
Thanks PD, i had forgotten what Tarkin said. i think its time to go back and watch the OT. itsbeen too long.
Frink, you made me laugh. :)
Padme
Protocol Droid said:
Obi-Wan: I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
That does not address the 'Did Yoda train Obi-Wan or not' topic. It just means that at one time Obi-Wan considered himself as good a trainer as Yoda.
But why compare himself to someone who only had a limited role in his training? Obi-wan comparing his training abilities to those of Yoda suggests a lot of first-hand experience being instructed by Yoda.
Am i the only one who hates the terms youngling, padawan etc.
I hate them almost as much as the word Midiclorian
I always thought Obi Wan apprenticed under the tutelage of Yoda like Empire says he did.
Originally Obi Wan was already a Jedi in the Phantom Menace, Lucas changed the script and added Qui Gon.
“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.
skyjedi2005 said:
Am i the only one who hates the terms youngling, padawan etc.
Nope. Not at all. I always hear "youngling" get made fun of.
skyjedi2005 said:
Am i the only one who hates the terms youngling, padawan etc.
I hate them almost as much as the word Midiclorian
I always thought Obi Wan apprenticed under the tutelage of Yoda like Empire says he did.
Originally Obi Wan was already a Jedi in the Phantom Menace, Lucas changed the script and added Qui Gon.
Every time I hear "pad" used in a Star Wars context I think mensuration.
Pad Me, Pad Awan.
It just brings out my inner smirking thirteen year old.
I also have find anything ending in "ling" reminds me of :
Lucas should never have brought Qui-Gon into TPM.
Instead of being amazed by how strong the Force was in the great pilot who would become his good friend he was gob smacked by his blood sample and bitched to Qui-Gon about dragging another pathetic life-form, that would enter the space battle on auto pilot and blow up the command ship by accident. He would spend most of his time with the boy moaning at him, warning him about his hormones and politics and shouting him down.
Instead of Yoda being the Jedi master who instructed Ben (a teacher Obi-Wan hoped to emulate but failed). Yoda is the Jedi Master who instructed the Jedi Master, who instructed the Jedi Master who instructed him and did such a poor job of it he turned to the dark side and became a Sith Lord so Ben shouldn't knock himself out so about Darth Vader it happens all the time it seems.
V.Poor.
Protocol Droid said:
I get where you are coming from.
Perhaps Luke didn't tell anyone where he was going? Even R2 didn't know.
so i decided to watch TESB. its my favorite, and this thread made me realize how much ive been wanting to watch it.
It is true that Luke doesnt tell anyone where he is going. the only time he mentions yoda or degobah to anyone is when han rescues him from freezing to death on hoth. of course, at the time luke is delirious, and just saying "ben, yoda, degobah" and sounds like he is drunk ;) im sure han wasnt even paying attention to what luke was saying and, even if he was, he would have no idea about yoda or the jedi anyway (so it would sail right past him).
Padme
skyjedi2005 said:
Am i the only one who hates the terms youngling, padawan etc.
Nope. They're painfully stupid-sounding words. I still vividly remember laughing hysterically in the theatres during ROTS when characters like Obi-Wan and Padme were saying, "He killed... Younglings!" I'm sorry. I just can't take that seriously, and it looked like it was nearly impossible for the actors as well.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
I don't like "padawan", but I can tolerate it. "Youngling", however, is just insufferable; whenever I hear the word, I feel as if I'm chewing on a large wad of tinfoil.
Maybe there should be a tv show taking place before TPM that shows that while Qui-Gon was with Obi-Wan in TPM, it was Yoda who Obi-Wan recieved most of his training from.
Yoda instructed Luke one on one because Luke was the only one. In the PT era there were several Force sensitive children, therefore Yoda instructed several at once. All we get to see in the films is Yoda teaching a lightsaber 101 class. I'm sure he taught others that would've looked more like what he taught Luke. And I'm equally sure other masters taught children before they were assigned a master. I see no problem with this.
I am what all Jedi fear to become, and what all Sith wish to be. A GOD!
moviefreakedmind said:
I think that Empire really does give me the vibe that Obi Wan was trained by Yoda in the same way that Yoda trained Luke. The way the prequels portrayed being trained by Yoda was more like being in a public school or something, and all you did was meet up with 25 other 8 year olds and practice with lightsabers. Obi Wan made it seem like he was actually trained by Yoda.
It's not just a vibe. Kenobi asks Yoda "was I any different when you taught me"
Protocol Droid said:
Still no contradiction. It is fair to assume some things that we don't see on screen still took place. We know that for Obi-Wan, Yoda was 'The Jedi Master that once instructed me.'...and Yoda did. We know this because Obi-Wan said it and Yoda does nothing that contradicts this. We just never saw his instruction on screen.
If you really want to get technical about it, the words used by Yoda and Obi-Wan would suggest that Yoda was not the one that trained Obi-Wan. Follow me on this:
Obi-Wan says 'instruction' when speaking of Yoda's involvement in his education. Yet, when Yoda is working with Luke, he almost exclusively uses 'train' or 'training' which suggests a deeper involvement than 'instructed'.
Also Yoda going from living in the big city to living as a hermit was explained on screen. He had to go into hiding as his life was in extreme danger, so he had to find a place of safety. Also, his ability to see events clearly using The Force was clouded. He needed to find clarity through peaceful meditation and solitude...to re-center himself with The Force. He picked a place that would provide both.
There is no contradiction... technically or otherwise.
tl;dr version:
"something something a certain point of view something something..."
JediZombie said:
Yoda instructed Luke one on one because Luke was the only one. In the PT era there were several Force sensitive children, therefore Yoda instructed several at once. All we get to see in the films is Yoda teaching a lightsaber 101 class. I'm sure he taught others that would've looked more like what he taught Luke. And I'm equally sure other masters taught children before they were assigned a master. I see no problem with this.
I for one thing think the whole sequence of a bunch of little kids mimicking Luke's improvised lesson was deliriously awful.
Luke has plenty of room and the droid thing is flying around him so he has to stay put and anticipate where the blasts are coming from. It's a good test for a young adult novice. I always got the impression that the seeker was something Han had for target practice. We don't see Ben with anything noticeable in the way of luggage and he borrows the helmet from Han's shelf so why not the seeker as well?
Yoda, (the powerful Jedi master from the good sequel that preached that reliance on weapons was a weakness and that conquering your own fear through the power of the mind was the key to solving your problems) well... they put him in charge of a bunch of toddlers with deadly glow sticks too close together for my comfort. Deflecting stinging blasts from flying robot things like a... like a very dangerous space pinata party.
Talk about deflating the dignity of the character, if sitting on a flying loo like the bleeding Mekon wasn't bad enough.
If I were in old Ben's shoes, I'd simply say this:
"There you will learn from Yoda, a Jedi master who instructed me".
And I'm sure anyone else with English as a first language would do the same as well*.
*Unless they're senile and/or lying, which I suspect is true for SE Obi.
If Ben had referred to "A Jedi Master who instructed me" that aspect of the PT would be fine. The rest of it would still be bobbins though.
I always thought of Yoda as something like Pai Mei from Kill Bill, albeit less psychotic.
But again this just delves further into the problems with how the Jedi are portrayed in the PT in general. I never saw the Jedi as being this tens of thousands strong army of robe wearing emotionless monks, that incidentally had a giant temple on corrusant dedicated to training young children on mass.
For me they were numbered in the hundreds, if that. They were much more like noble knights, roaming the galaxy in order to learn more of the force and through it wisdom, whilst helping those in need.
This would also actually give us some interesting differences between Jedi, giving us Jedi who tow the line between good and evil, yet at their hearts are still good, again giving us the potential for mass variation in Jedi, like Jedi who use blasters, wear armor, fight alone from the shadows, or fight in groups with other Jedi or soldiers, hell, we could even have Jedi who refuse or don't need to fight, instead relying on their power over others minds.
I also didn't see them having a 'council' or a 'grand master', or really much of a governing structure at all, as it all completely contradicts the OT in that there are plenty of people who don't believe in the force and have clearly not even heard of the Jedi.
They always seemed more mysterious and legendary than what we are shown in the PT, and thus the idea of thousands upon thousands of beings, who train endless young children from extremely early ages at a towering temple at the centre of the galaxy, who later lead armies of clones in a galaxy spanning war, seemed out of place for a group of people who are near enough completely forgotten or talked about 20 years after they are wiped from existence. Wiped from existence by the very clones they lead, in a clear coup de tat by a military dictatorship government.
Bottom line for me: Never trust old Ben when he says something. That's very "OT" after all. ;)
Vozlov said:
I always thought of Yoda as something like Pai Mei from Kill Bill, albeit less psychotic.
But again this just delves further into the problems with how the Jedi are portrayed in the PT in general. I never saw the Jedi as being this tens of thousands strong army of robe wearing emotionless monks, that incidentally had a giant temple on corrusant dedicated to training young children on mass.
For me they were numbered in the hundreds, if that. They were much more like noble knights, roaming the galaxy in order to learn more of the force and through it wisdom, whilst helping those in need.
This would also actually give us some interesting differences between Jedi, giving us Jedi who tow the line between good and evil, yet at their hearts are still good, again giving us the potential for mass variation in Jedi, like Jedi who use blasters, wear armor, fight alone from the shadows, or fight in groups with other Jedi or soldiers, hell, we could even have Jedi who refuse or don't need to fight, instead relying on their power over others minds.
I also didn't see them having a 'council' or a 'grand master', or really much of a governing structure at all, as it all completely contradicts the OT in that there are plenty of people who don't believe in the force and have clearly not even heard of the Jedi.
They always seemed more mysterious and legendary than what we are shown in the PT, and thus the idea of thousands upon thousands of beings, who train endless young children from extremely early ages at a towering temple at the centre of the galaxy, who later lead armies of clones in a galaxy spanning war, seemed out of place for a group of people who are near enough completely forgotten or talked about 20 years after they are wiped from existence. Wiped from existence by the very clones they lead, in a clear coup de tat by a military dictatorship government.
This is the problem when you talk about the mechanisms of a thousand generation old Galactic Republic.
What use would a few hundred Jedi be?
I thought there was a separation between the Jedi Knights and the other Jedi.
"Knights" implies a military order with martial arts and some sort of commission from the Galactic Government.
Even now in the UK a knighthood is bestowed by the Queen on recommendation from her Prime Minister. Similar formalities are shared with other orders like the Knights of Malta etc.
Yet Tarkin calls the Jedi a religion. Non-Jedi evoke the Force in their calls to arms.
Yoda seems to preach very limited militant action.
There would have to be at least millions of Jedi Knights to have any sort of limited impact on a galactic scale. But their may be billions of Jedi living a life of contemplation and meditation. Employed as spiritual gurus or healers.
Han has heard of the Force and isn't impressed but Luke hasn't a clue about it so at some point in the Empire there isn't just a purge of the militant wing of the 'religion' but also a cultural purge to the point where young people on distant worlds need the basic concepts explained to them.
Thanks for bringing this up... I never actually thought about this until reading this.
It Would make a lot more sense if they would have fleshed out Yoda training Obi-wan and it still could have meant other Jedi were still new characters.
But the opportunity to develop those 2 characters a lot more was a missed opportunity. Much more history and lore could have been built on there relationship that continued throughout the 3 films yet they developed a character that they killed off in the first film (Dead End). Trying to repeat the Obi-wan death from star wars when they should have not tried to replicate the originals but focused on more character development that we Did know.
Oh well... Thanks Again for bringing this up.
I agree with this numbers of Jedi being a Small but very dangerous elite group but not aggressive.
Almost like a SAS or Navy Seal Team or something but in a magical religious spiritual sense. They sort out the real difficult bad situations in a way nobody else can in this fantasy world. And also a long arduous task that it would not be easy to earn the title of Jedi or Jedi knight. You would spend most of your life trying to reach that status.
Stating outright the number of Jedi Knights in existence is always going to be a bad idea, because everyone has a different idea of them and their purpose in the galaxy. I imagine that the Jedi are a religious sect which isolates itself from society at large, much like Tibetan monks. They would have their own culture and family structure, and most would preach a philosophy of peace and would not have obvious mystical powers. It is only a very few who decide to serve the Republic and become knights, and these may not be the most powerful, only the most eager to serve the government. Since the Jedi are isolated from galactic society and their homeworlds are often peaceful (like Alderaan), it would be a simple task to hunt them down and destroy them. Since they are so isolated, regular people would probably only know of them, and not know or believe in their philosophy or powers of the Force. The Rebel Alliance would be the spiritual successor to the Jedi, which is why its leaders invoke the power of the Force.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Assuming it isn't all more Obi-Wan point of view style fibs, the Jedi Knights were guardians of peace and justice for a thousand generations.
Consider how ineffectual the UN peace keeping missions are and multiply that by the billions of worlds in the Republic. Are these knights some sort of inquisitors as well? They don't just keep the peace they keep justice too and they have the power to enter the minds of some people.
To be effective as guardians of peace there has to be millions of Jedi Knights all over the place and working hard and being quite openly active for their memory to be revered and despised almost two decades after being systematically rounded up and destroyed.
A thousand generations (assuming he means human generations) is a long time.
They can't all just be hermits hiding up a hill in the middle of nowhere.
However from a certain point of view anyone can guard a whole galaxy :
I think Bingowings that you are ascribing the Jedi the requirement of being galactic law enforcement, which as you say is just one way to look at it. The members of the Supreme Court can also be said to be the "guardians of justice", and that's just nine people for an entire country. The Supreme Court can also be "revered and despised", even though it is just a few people, because it represents the highest form of justice in the United States. Of course, the Jedi Knights would be more active on account of their military activity (Obi-wan being a general), but the point is that they would be the elites, commanding and influencing many normal people, people who have only a vague idea of the mystical Force that their commanders care so much about.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
I'm taking Ben at his word which naturally generates problems with his track record. His. "the guardians of peace and justice" blurb carries over to TPM's crawl so clearly Lucas didn't intend them to be a couple of hundred people.
He could be puffing up the order. "Morgan Cartewell is the guardian of oral hygiene in the universe" (that sort of thing) but unlike Luke's family relationships Ben hasn't got a reason to exaggerate or fib and his claims seem to backed up by what the Rebel and Imperial leaders say so yeah...that implies a large body of people doing stuff in a very open way...to me.
Vozlov said:
I always thought of Yoda as something like Pai Mei from Kill Bill, albeit less psychotic.
