I see your "Luke & Leia" and raise you "The Dark Side Beckons" (begins when Luke is hiding from Vader toward the end). Phenomenal.
I'd say ROTJ is a veeery close second to ESB for the best score of the originals. That's one area in which it certainly isn't lacking.
Have to agree with the above comments about the score for ROTJ; it's another fine score from Williams. All three original movies have great music.
They are nice passages to be sure and I'd chuck The Emperor's Theme and Jabba's Theme in there for good measure but as a score (rather than an album of music) it does at times feel like the film itself.
Star Warsy enough to get away with it for a few listenings but largely a re-hash of the greatest hits so far.
For example the use of the TIE fighter cue from Here They Come in the sail barge sequence makes no musical sense at all and smacks at 'I need a bit of flurry here...oh I'll stick that bit in from the first film, even though I will later use it in the correct context later in the film'.
The PT has some fine music too, I'd go as far as saying score wise AOTC and ROTS are better served than ROTJ (even though the films themselves are much weaker).
But it goes back to what I was saying earlier, at the end of the day people are different and there are people out there who are genuinely happy with the SE, they aren't deluded they just like different things and in a world where we can watch the OUT it really wouldn't be an issue.
I was 7 when the trilogy came on TV and from the first movie I was blown away. ROTJ was the only one I got to record on video and I watched just it for maybe at least half a year until I got my trilogy. So from the beginning it was always an entertaining movie and I couldn't decide which was better to me, TESB or ROTJ. SW was great, too, of course.
As a kid you tend to see only the positive things, I never had a problem with ewoks, I just waited for the end battle. But now in the recent maybe 5 years, everytime I watch ROTJ I think it's harder and harder to wait for the end battle. Because after the speeder bike chase it feels so dragging and boring and you're just waiting until Luke goes to see Vader. And even after that, the whole Endor battle isn't interesting at all. So for me, from 1 to 10, it's TESB 10, SW 9½ and ROTJ maybe 7½ now.
And about scores... I think SW and TESB are perfect. There isn't a track that isn't good (well, maybe Yoda's theme, I've never been a fan of that) or doesn't capture SW feeling. ROTJ is great, too, but there are some tracks that aren't so. And surprise, it's all the Ewok themes, and some of the Jabba tracks are little boring, too. But then there are themes that are more powerful than in the other movies. "Darkside reckons" always gives me the chills and then when Luke attacks... It's awesome. Also Emperor's themes are great and there are good battle themes, too. Funeral pyre is great, but again, Ewok Celebration ruins it, LOL. So ROTJ kind of compensates the bad tracks with even greater tracks.
And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.
I think the point raised about Lucas becoming a dad by ROTJ is entirely valid. Certainly fatherhood has affected his art; he hasn't become "soft", he just thinks about things more. Why else would he consult a child psychiatrist about the revelation about Vader revealing himself as Luke's dad in the previous instalment? By the time of the prequels, Lucas had separated from his wife and gained sole custody of his children. So now, more than ever before, he was aware of his responsibility as a storyteller and the messages his films were sending out to their target audience. Maybe this is why segments of the prequels feel a little laboured whereas the OT had a breezy, devil-may-care attitude to it.
Part of the appeal for me with ROTJ is it has a the-gang's-all-here tone to it. Yes, some of the actors are going through the motions - except Mark Hammill, for whom this is his shining hour - but the sequences between Vader and Luke fail to be diminished by this (and this really is their film, right?) and I really like then sense of this-is-the-last-one-so-let's-go-for-broke (a second Death Star is not so bad an idea - after all, people still make nuclear weapons don't they?).
Watched in the context of the bigger story, the opening of the film is a blessed relief after the darkness of ESB (in the same way, ANH is a breath of fresh air after the death and misery of ROTS) and I'm sure that was deliberate; the characters are really put through the mill in ESB, we really can't see them going through all that again in this, the final episode.
In retrospect, Kersh has made some observations about ROTJ that I do agree with. He said there's no sense of danger for the characters, they never seem in real peril. And how could they, with such appallingly choreographed sequences as the fight over the pit of Carkoon and the fighting on Endor? Also, the film moves from one set piece to the next in quite a ruthless fashion. I can't argue with these criticisms. Kersh also said he'd never have removed Vader's helmet. I think the story demanded that we see Vader's face, though, to drive home the message that the machine side of him was dead, and he had regained his humanity.
Why else would he consult a child psychiatrist about the revelation about Vader revealing himself as Luke's dad in the previous instalment?
Anyone got the origin of this? Seen it repeated a few times in the last year or two.
I think Lucas mentioned it in the ESB commentary.
All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.
I think it is a hyped up urban legend that Lucas consulted a Child Psychiatrist for the ESB revelation. I know he said it on the ESB '04 Commmentary, but he also said on those same commentaries that the story was always about the Tragedy of Darth Vader, which we all know that is utter bullshit. Another bullshit statement by Lucas is that he fought FOX to put Episode IV in the original crawl in 1977, yet his first draft of ESB documented from 'The Annotated Screenplays' is called Star Wars: Episode II. It wasn't called Episode V til the third draft!
My point is that there are alot of exaggerated myths in Star Wars lore after all these years, as Lucas enjoys revisionism towards the Star Wars movies. I'm sure it was discussed how kids would react to Darth Vader's revelation, but I don't buy that Lucas went out of his way to consult a professional opinion on this.
Sorry, but I have heard too many lies and exaggerations throughout the years from Lucas to believe alot of his nonsense these days.
Its in 1983's Skywalking and I think Kershner reported this as well. Its appeared in other sources too.
Bingowings said:
They are nice passages to be sure and I'd chuck The Emperor's Theme and Jabba's Theme in there for good measure but as a score (rather than an album of music) it does at times feel like the film itself.
Star Warsy enough to get away with it for a few listenings but largely a re-hash of the greatest hits so far.
For example the use of the TIE fighter cue from Here They Come in the sail barge sequence makes no musical sense at all and smacks at 'I need a bit of flurry here...oh I'll stick that bit in from the first film, even though I will later use it in the correct context later in the film'.
Where were you in '77?
CO said:
I think it is a hyped up urban legend that Lucas consulted a Child Psychiatrist for the ESB revelation. I know he said it on the ESB '04 Commmentary, but he also said on those same commentaries that the story was always about the Tragedy of Darth Vader, which we all know that is utter bullshit. Another bullshit statement by Lucas is that he fought FOX to put Episode IV in the original crawl in 1977, yet his first draft of ESB documented from 'The Annotated Screenplays' is called Star Wars: Episode II. It wasn't called Episode V til the third draft!
My point is that there are alot of exaggerated myths in Star Wars lore after all these years, as Lucas enjoys revisionism towards the Star Wars movies. I'm sure it was discussed how kids would react to Darth Vader's revelation, but I don't buy that Lucas went out of his way to consult a professional opinion on this.
Sorry, but I have heard too many lies and exaggerations throughout the years from Lucas to believe alot of his nonsense these days.
Sorry, but you say you've had enough of George's b/s? I've had enough of the endless negativity. I'm sure you think that his pledge to plough all that money into the education system is b/s too.
Look, he said it; it's been proven (and if you won't take it from George, I'm sure you'll take it from Kersh) so, whilst some of your gripes are well-founded I'm sure, I think you need to get a little perspective on things :)
I respect your passion as a fan and I'm sure it's that that fuels the bile and vitriol. So, I'm not taking issue with you personally, just some of the things you said in your post.
Dude, you're on the wrong forum. Just wait until Skyjedi shows up ...
CO has a good point, it not just "vitrol". Lucas has been notorious with putting out bullshit spins on things. Sometimes its probably just for simplicity's sake, sometimes its deliberate misdirection for promotional means. As far as his claim of consulting a psychologist, I have a feeling the reality is that he simply had a friend in the field of psychology and said, "so, this isn't going to like scar kids is it? It's kind of intense." Maybe he just looked it up in one of his psychology books and found that kids responding to situations like this will resort to denial (i.e., Vader's trying to trick Luke). Because if he actually did go to a real, live pyschologist and the guy said "yeah, this might be too intense for small kids", what was Lucas going to do? Scrap the entire father point? Well maybe, but then if it was REALLY the central element of his masterminded Tragedy of Darth Vader that was his "vision" that he was never going to compromise, the fact that he's Luke father is the entire point of the story's existance. I also find it hard to believe he brought the biggest plot twist for the biggest film of all time to someone outside of his circle.
The reality is probably that Lucas had a justified curiosity if he was taking things a bit too over the top and looked into what psychology had to say, and to his relief he found a convenient way to continue on without guilt. Maybe this entailed going to a real professional or someone in a related field of psychology for advice, but considering this was the biggest secret plot twist in movies at that time I would not think it realistic to go to anyone but a trusted friend. Still, the larger point brought up stands: he WAS showing concern for the children in the audience by looking into the matter, regardless of the extent this entailed. I don't believe he made it all up out of thin air, there is likely to be some truth in it.
Easterhay said:
Sorry, but you say you've had enough of George's b/s? I've had enough of the endless negativity. I'm sure you think that his pledge to plough all that money into the education system is b/s too.
Look, he said it; it's been proven (and if you won't take it from George, I'm sure you'll take it from Kersh) so, whilst some of your gripes are well-founded I'm sure, I think you need to get a little perspective on things :)
I respect your passion as a fan and I'm sure it's that that fuels the bile and vitriol. So, I'm not taking issue with you personally, just some of the things you said in your post.
Oh please stop your 'I'm tired of you're negativity' when this is the first time I have actually addressed you in a post on this website.
As Zombie said, he probably 'consulted' some psych friend or even somebody in that field, but as always in SW-lore, it is exaggerated like they did research and conducted field studies.
There is no denying that Lucas lies constantly about the SW movies more then any director about their own series. And as a fan who was there in 1977, I see Lucas re-writing SW history with this "Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' bullshit.
I will give you an example of someone humble about their directorial success. Zemeckis talks on Back to the Future commentary about how they never planned any sequels in 1985, and they sort of made it up as they went along. He could have done a Lucas and just said it was all planned from the beginning, but the guy doesn't rewrite Back to the Future history.
The bottom line is that I could make a list of Lucas lies in the past 13 years, and that is why I really don't take any value as to what he says NOW. You can call me angry, and that is fine with me, but I am just stating the facts, something that has been lost in the SW-world in the past 13 years.
You misunderstand. I am tired of the negativity is what I said. Did I say "your" negativity? No.
So, you are suggesting that people ignore the facts? If the facts paint a picture that might be called "negative", it's hard to just sort of pretend it doesn't exist. Well, you could, I suppose, but that doesn't really serve any constructive purpose.
Well the fact is I was misquoted. How's that for starters?
Easterhay said:
You misunderstand. I am tired of the negativity is what I said. Did I say "your" negativity? No.
The Negativity??? Dude, the site is OT.com, and Lucas just announced the SW movies are coming to BluRay and it doesn't include the OOT versions.
Should we be all happy and cheering????
Ok guys, time to change our tune around here:
I love Lucas, even though versions of SW I love don't exist in his mind anymore, and in the process has re-shifted the OT story which was about Luke to now the story of Anakin Skywalker!!! We get to see in the new versions of the OT, Greedo shooting first, Hayden being digitally inserted into the force ghost scene at the end of Jedi, a great musical number called Jedi Rocks! And if you look at the end of Jedi, you can see Jar Jar say, 'Weesa free!"
Thanks George!!!
ChainsawAsh said:
Dude, you're on the wrong forum.
I suspect that's exactly why he's here. Attacks & insinuates - then claims innocence & misunderstanding. Textbook passive\aggressive trolling. He'll be back on TFN and the Lucas boards after a while. We get a couple of these guys every few months.
Easterhay said:
Well the fact is I was misquoted. How's that for starters?
You were, and that was unfair to you, but don't side-step my point. "Negativity" in regards to the subject that was in discussion is pretty understandable considering the history of the person in question with regards to these sorts of claims (i.e. that Lucas is known for stretching the truth or just plain making stuff up) and also when considering the specifics of the alleged event in question (i.e. that it seems a little fishy the way it is often reported). Saying that you're tired of people speaking about Lucas in a negative light seems a bit unmotivated and unnecessary since peoples issues here are fairly understandable. It really just seems like you didn't like people picking on Lucas, regardless of the reasons.
I don't think the whole thing about Lucas going "soft" after becoming a father is anything new. In fact I thought that was the general understanding as the reason for certain shifts in focus or tone.
And the whole child psychiatrist thing could be said to go against the whole only Lucas, Kershner and Hamill (I presume Kasdan too) knew about the "revelation".
"Well here's a big bag of rock salt" - Patton Oswalt
Anchorhead said:
ChainsawAsh said:
Dude, you're on the wrong forum.
I suspect that's exactly why he's here. Attacks & insinuates - then claims innocence & misunderstanding. Textbook passive\aggressive trolling. He'll be back on TFN and the Lucas boards after a while. We get a couple of these guys every few months.
Well, you're wrong. You misquoted me. Thanks for manning up and apologising, very big of you. I can see I'm going to have fun with you.
zombie84 said:
Easterhay said:
Well the fact is I was misquoted. How's that for starters?
You were, and that was unfair to you, but don't side-step my point. "Negativity" in regards to the subject that was in discussion is pretty understandable considering the history of the person in question with regards to these sorts of claims (i.e. that Lucas is known for stretching the truth or just plain making stuff up) and also when considering the specifics of the alleged event in question (i.e. that it seems a little fishy the way it is often reported). Saying that you're tired of people speaking about Lucas in a negative light seems a bit unmotivated and unnecessary since peoples issues here are fairly understandable. It really just seems like you didn't like people picking on Lucas, regardless of the reasons.
Well, I don't think Lucas is untouchable at all. Ergo, he once said Star Wars was a nine part saga and he has recently went back on that and acted as though he never said it.
However, saying and doing things that some find disagreeable does not make that person essentially bad. There is no such thing as a bad person; all people are essentiallly good. This is my belief.
It is neither unecessary or unmotivated (how do you work that one out, fella? How does carping and negativity motivate anyone other than to continue to it all the more, especially when the braying gallery is urging them on?) to complain about negativity? Some people here are so consumed by their feelings that they will deny Lucas everything, even when it is clear as day that he is not always dishonest or economical with the truth. After all, w hat has Anchorhead just done if not lied about what I said just to fuel his own argument? This is what I mean about being consumed by feelings: someone says something thay find objectionable, so from that point on they object to everything that person says. It's witless.
If someone does something that is perceived to be bad and then does something that is good, is the good deed then ignored in favour of the bad? Tell me, where's the motivation in that?
I was 8 when I saw all three movie on 4:3 bootleg VHS few months after the release of ROTJ)
I must confess the only movie I really wanted to see at that time was ROTJ because of all the creatures I saw in the trailer on theater. While I really liked Star Wars and Empire, I was just waiting to see ROTJ and liked that movie very much.
Like I said I was 8 (or maybe 9), now I can see ROTJ is the weakest of all three, but I just can't hate that wonderful movie.
Easterhay said:
However, saying and doing things that some find disagreeable does not make that person essentially bad. There is no such thing as a bad person; all people are essentiallly good. This is my belief.
Hitler would like a word with you...*