When did The Empire Strikes Back become more highly regarded than Star Wars? — Page 2

Is that just modesty on Lucas's part, though?

Yes, that Lucas has always said it's Kersh's film. And Kersh said when the SE changes were made that the Star Wars films were George's.

It's modesty, pure and simple. An appealing characteristic.

stretch009 said:

Tyrphanax said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Anchorhead said:

I never considered Empire superior to Star Wars.  I did like it when it was first released and even had a laserdisc of it a few years after that.  After a while, the things that I had never liked about it (Vader as father, Yoda, 3PO silliness) ended up becoming the things that caused me to lose interest.  To me, it felt small and stylized compared to Star Wars.  It was too slick, too formula.  I very much prefer the vast unknown, far away adventure of Star Wars.

I agree with you.  Also, the script and acting are noticeably better in SW (esp. Guinness and Cushing).  ESB has lots of cool stuff in it for saga fans, but as a movie, SW can stand up against any film ever made.

I dunno about that. There is a lot of weird delivery for me (Especially on Harrison's part) in Star Wars.

 

Any examples?

 

 

A lot of his lines on the Falcon on the way to the Death Star are just all run together with zero inflection and it makes it hard to follow. Makes me cringe every time.

Oh, I was talking about what they said in interviews where they both attributed the film to the other. So I suppose you could go with whichever quote suits your perspective or, better, take both as the truth. Lucas didn't want to be hands on with TESB, choosing instead to make the editing suite his place of work and he trusted Kersh anyway, being his one-time mentor, which would easily explain his absence from the set.

Tyrphanax said:

A lot of his lines on the Falcon on the way to the Death Star are just all run together with zero inflection and it makes it hard to follow. Makes me cringe every time.

Harrison Ford is a midwesterner.  They all talk that way.  It's a big part of the culture not to sound too excited about anything.

TV's Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:

stretch009 said:

Tyrphanax said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Anchorhead said:

I never considered Empire superior to Star Wars.  I did like it when it was first released and even had a laserdisc of it a few years after that.  After a while, the things that I had never liked about it (Vader as father, Yoda, 3PO silliness) ended up becoming the things that caused me to lose interest.  To me, it felt small and stylized compared to Star Wars.  It was too slick, too formula.  I very much prefer the vast unknown, far away adventure of Star Wars.

I agree with you.  Also, the script and acting are noticeably better in SW (esp. Guinness and Cushing).  ESB has lots of cool stuff in it for saga fans, but as a movie, SW can stand up against any film ever made.

I dunno about that. There is a lot of weird delivery for me (Especially on Harrison's part) in Star Wars.

 

Any examples?

 

 

A lot of his lines on the Falcon on the way to the Death Star are just all run together with zero inflection and it makes it hard to follow. Makes me cringe every time.

Get out.

Sorry bro. Most of his lines are delivered very well, but it distracts me every single time I hear him say things like "therearen'tanybasesaroundherewhere'ditcomefrom" because there's just no rhythm to it.

I think it depends which movie critic, if any, one listens to.  I also think the ESB favoritism of ANH is due to the changes of taste as one grows older.  In my experience kids liked ANH MUCH more than ESB.  My friends and other kid acquaintances loved the variety of characters(jawas,droids,cantina aliens, stormtroopers Vader and space battle of ANH.  We all LOVED the x-wings, tie-fighters, and y-wings. the great story with epic battle!  In ESB we thought it was entertaining with the hoth battle, asteroid chase, yoda and Luke vs Vader BUT NOTHING beat the DS assault of ANH.

As me and my SW buddies got older we learned to appreciate the details of the stories, and the multiple impacts of dramatic scenes provided by ESB.  I cant get enough of the deep storyline of ESB nowadays!  I still prefer ANH by a smidge, but i think ESB is the best sequel ever.  Who knows how good ROTJ would've been had Kershner/Kurtz/Brackett/Kasden been allowed to remain.  I can remember back in 93', when SW was beginning its comeback, reading sci-fi mags and talking with fellow fans, and thats when I 1st  started hearing that ESB is the best of the OOT. Many friendly debates ensued!

Sorry bro. Most of his lines are delivered very well, but it distracts me every single time I hear him say things like "therearen'tanybasesaroundherewhere'ditcomefrom" because there's just no rhythm to it.

It looks like an Imperial Cruiser, our passengers must be hotter than we thought; try and hold them off, angle the deflector shield while I make the calculations for the jump to light speed.

What a mess. All of his lines in the Falcon seemed like he was just trying to say them as fast as possible, while the lines themselves seemed written for a slower delivery.

"Faster! More intense!!"

Need I say more? 

Well, Brackett didn't "remain" because she died. Apparently the treatment that she turned in was not up to scratch but out of respect her name remained on the credits. It was never on the cards for Kersh to return for the next one. And I really think that anyone who was hoping for episode six to be TESB part two is entirely missing the point of the arc of the three-act play.

What is so great about TESB is that any lesser writer would have followed up Star Wars with simply more of the same, based on the premise that if it ain't broke etc. Certainly, if Lucas had not been canny enough to retain sequel rights then Hollywood would undoubtedly have churned out a repeat of the first film.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

Sorry bro. Most of his lines are delivered very well, but it distracts me every single time I hear him say things like "therearen'tanybasesaroundherewhere'ditcomefrom" because there's just no rhythm to it.

It looks like an Imperial Cruiser, our passengers must be hotter than we thought; try and hold them off, angle the deflector shield while I make the calculations for the jump to light speed.

What a mess. All of his lines in the Falcon seemed like he was just trying to say them as fast as possible, while the lines themselves seemed written for a slower delivery.

 

Disagree. This line would take a couple of seconds for Han to think. He realizes what's happening and gives directions. It makes sense that he would say it fast, as it needs to happen fast. It's a realistic delivery.

absolutely.  Han's delivery is spot on and fantastic.  He's making these observations while under tremendous duress.  Two fast approaching star destroyers, and later a battle station the size of a moon, kinda does that to ya.

NeverarGreat said:

Sorry bro. Most of his lines are delivered very well, but it distracts me every single time I hear him say things like "therearen'tanybasesaroundherewhere'ditcomefrom" because there's just no rhythm to it.

It looks like an Imperial Cruiser, our passengers must be hotter than we thought; try and hold them off, angle the deflector shield while I make the calculations for the jump to light speed.

What a mess. All of his lines in the Falcon seemed like he was just trying to say them as fast as possible, while the lines themselves seemed written for a slower delivery.

 

Exactly what I mean! He just blurts them out and you have to stop for a second to analyze what he said because there's no emphasis or... effort, really... put into certain lines. I feel like the "oh, he was under extreme duress" line to be a pretty lame excuse; it's a movie, not real life, and I know I've put more effort into what I'm saying in a tense situation than he did there; regardless, the actor could try it again, the director could choose to do another take, or the editor could use a better take. 

It's weird, because he delivers fast lines on the Falcon well half the time, and he does fine in the other films, but just certain ones he flubs (in my opinion) and it just throws me off.

One of the reasons I like SW so much better than ESB are the settings.  In SW, we essentially have a planet with large natural landscapes, a huge space station, and a lot of outer space.  There is more diversity on Tatooine than in all of the venues of ESB put together. Most of SW it takes place in big places where there is a lot to explore.  Ben takes Luke to increasingly distant destinations.  By contrast, ESB takes place in mostly confined places - an ice planet where everyone has to stay indoors, a rainy dank planet, the inside of an asteroid, and rooms inside of a city.  SW seemed expansive and the unveiling of a universe for a farm boy, whereas ESB always felt claustrophobic to me.

The SW universe also started shrinking with ESB and ROTJ, with Luke's father being Vader, etc., and lack of introducing any significant new characters that weren't already alluded to in SW. (Yoda being the one, signifcant exception - that puppet single-handedly transforms the movie from a bore to a classic)

As good as ESB is (and I don't mean to imply that it isn't great - only that it isn't as great as SW), I think it missed its chance to continue expanding our view of the universe, rather than shrinking it.  I could imagine SW going on forever with writers using their vision to continue adding new vistas, new factions, etc.  Instead, by making the "saga" so closed and wrapped around itself, they have effectively killed it as a venue for really new ideas.

For example, imagine instead if in ESB we had learned that the Empire was just one of many factions vying for control of the dark side.  Or if there were galactic rulers beyond the ones we have met.  Or if other races discovered other ways of using the force.  Or, what if Luke fell in love with some fascinating woman Sith?  The possibilities are (were) endless.

If Disney approaches Ep.VII/VIII/IX in that way, they could potentially reopen the doors to more SW.  If they keep trying to build upon the "saga", I think that interest will dry up quick.  At least mine will.

Father Skywalker said:

Markdav said:

I never saw any of the Star Wars movies as a kid, but I always do remember hearing from most fans that Star Wars was the best of the trilogy.  To be sure, I looked up IMDB's top 250 in 1996, and found that Star Wars was ranked #1, and Empire was ranked #26!  Below is the link to prove it.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/19961219233558/us.imdb.com/top_250_films

 

I looked at more lists, and found that around 2004-2005 is when ESB surpassed Star Wars on the list, and today ESB is the only Star Wars movie on the top ten.  Now I'm sure there were plenty of people in the 1980s and 1990s who considered ESB the best of the trilogy, but it seems like in the 1980s and 1990s Star Wars was considered the masterpiece of the trilogy, with Empire ranked behind it.  Now, in 2010, Empire is widely considered the crowning achievement of the saga.  Has anyone else noticed how opinions on these two films seem to have changed over the years?  I'm curious as to why they've change the way they did.

Star Wars is not a movie. There is no Star wars, episode, star wars. Star wars is the name of all 6 movies in both trilogies, not a paticular movie in paticular..... All Star wars films are called/named star wars; not a paticular movie called "star wars"...

LOL. Nice trolling.