Cadavra said:
By your logic, how Rey beat Kylo Ren and why Holdo doesn’t tell Poe her plan need a logical basis.
First, Rey beating Kylo DID get a logical basis shown in the film itself pretty clearly. The movie went out of its way to (1) establish via her staff that Rey has experience with melee weapons, (2) demonstrate the power of Chewie’s bowcaster, (3) show Kylo getting shot with the bowcaster, (4) linger on Kylo’s wound before the duel, and (5) show Rey firmly on defense until she lets the Force in. This aspect of TFA, at least, is actually a master class in showing rather than telling; all the pieces are patiently doled out IN THE MOVIE ITSELF. I don’t think any of the TROS elements I’m criticizing come anywhere near that close.
This logic applies to how Palpatine survived in RotJ. He wants to transfer his spirit into and possess Rey/Kylo Ren. He explicitly confirms to Ren he’s died before, further reinforced by him visibly exploding in RotJ. He can create bodies from scratch like Snoke, and his current body is identical to his original. Hence, one can infer he transferred his spirit to his clone body after RotJ.
Second, I do think Holdo not telling Poe the plan was poorly handled in TLJ, as well, and there should have been a real explanation for why she didn’t. Did you assume that I don’t think that?
Except Holdo’s refusal DOES make sense and DOES have a real explanation. Given that the First Order is consistently locating the Resistance (“Our base is Starkiller’s next target” in TFA, meaning the FO is aware of their base; in TLJ they evacuate BECAUSE of this, and even in just TLJ the FO tracks the Resistance through lightspeed and no one has any clue as to HOW they tracked 'em thru lightspeed) and given Holdo’s refusal, put two and two together and one can INFER she believes there’s a spy leaking information to the First Order.
Inferences ARE real explanations, they just aren’t explicitly confirmed in dialogue or in visual storytelling. It’s like saying the following inference I’m about to mention isn’t a real explanation - there’s a cat and a broken vase next to a table, put two and two together and one can INFER the cat knocked the vase off the table.
The audience has no reason at that point to believe that Vader is Luke’s father. That’s NOT how foreshadowing works.
You seem to have misread what I wrote again. I didn’t say those elements were foreshadowing or that anyone would suspect Vader was Luke’s father. I said they fit perfectly with the ESB reveal and take on new and deeper meaning when viewed through that lens, regardless of original intent. Which they obviously do.
But both reveals STILL came out of nowhere and had no explicit set-up. That’s my point. That foreshadowing is absolutely NOT necessary. That Palps’ return is surprising BECAUSE of the lack of set-up.
How, exactly?
By me watching Episodes VII and VIII after having seen IX and not feeling any newfound, Palpatine-related interest, that’s how (if anything, it got in the way of all the elements I was interested in). In fact, the most amazing things about my first post-TROS viewings of the previous movies was how I didn’t feel like they were leading up to anything Palpatine-related at all. They didn’t feel to me at all like they connected to TROS. And I am immensely grateful for that, because it helps me continue to enjoy those films on their own terms (even if I do have to settle for swapping out TROS for my own fan script in my personal headcanon).
If you enjoyed them and found meaning in the trilogy as a satisfying whole, great. I would never even think of trying to stop you. But that simply wasn’t my experience, nor was it the experience of most of the friends with whom I enjoy Star Wars.
I meant as in: “How does Palpatine’s return make the events less interesting?” And I already explained WHY it DOES make them MORE interesting.
Except the “Rey Palpatine” storyline ISN’T about family drama.
You’re reading too much into a simple phrase. It’s drama. It’s related to family. That’s all “family drama” means.
God, you don’t understand what it is.
it adds to Rey’s core belief of self-worthlessness, whilst also reinforcing that the saga is about the conflict between the Skywalkers and Palpatine himself, with his heir basically flipping him off when she adopts the Skywalker name to honor Luke and Leia.
I don’t see “Rey’s core belief of self-worthlessness” being a thing, sorry. I know it’s a point you’re passionate about, I’ve read some of your arguments about it, but I just don’t see her that way. If that interpretation is true and meaningful to you, then again, more power to you. It simply doesn’t factor into my interpretation.
I recommend you read my essay. It lists evidence and symptoms of it.
I also don’t care all that much for her adoption of the Skywalker name. Oh well.
I do. It drives home the point of the trilogy - the Skywalker legacy will live on after the actual bloodline (including Ben) dies off. It’s more meaningful than Luke’s daughter continuing their legacy.
Fair, but Anakin still brought balance for almost 30 years.
Yeah, it’s fair to say the ST doesn’t completely ignore the issue, but it sure doesn’t treat it as significant. If they were gonna use Palpatine, I would very much preferred a meatier treatment of it.
Why does that balance need to be significant, exactly?
Subjective.
That’s one of the most important points here. MOST of what we’re arguing about is subjective. Yes, you inferences mean most of the story’s events make enough sense from a canon perspective, and enjoying it on that level, as a package deal with the theorizing and the reference books and the other supplements is one thing. And yes, some unanswered questions are good in movies (mainly about themes, symbolism, tertiary plot points, etc.). But when discussing a film’s merits as a film, the core experience has to stand on its own, relying only on the other films in the same series. It must be digestible to casuals and fanboys alike, with as few obstacles as possible to both groups’ understanding and satisfaction.
To make another comparison, I mostly liked Solo, and I loved Maul’s cameo at the end, which I understood instantly because I followed The Clone Wars and Rebels. But I can also separate my personal enjoyment of the product from from my recognition that including Maul was a bad move from a general-audiences filmmaking standpoint, because it needlessly confused the hell out of a lot of people who didn’t know why a guy they last saw die in a movie from 1999 was suddenly back and running a crime cartel.
Yes, that’s what I’m arguing here. Film is subjective in whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing to YOU, but it’s objective in the sense of whether in-story and in-universe events and plot points and stuff DO make sense or not. That’s what MauLer - f%#king MauLer - means when he says film is objective.
Regarding Maul’s appearance in Solo, by your logic, it’s never explained how Anakin survived being burned up on Mustafar. Oh wait, one can infer the dark side kept both characters alive. And casual audiences don’t care or know about inference in storytelling, it’s their fault they haven’t paid attention in English class - that’s the problem with most Star Wars movie fans post-1998 (the “1998” is intentional).
Same with TFA and TLJ, by your logic.
Sure. I have no problem agreeing that both films have things that aren’t adequately explained, although in TFA and TLJ those things do not detract from my enjoyment nearly as much because I find them far stronger and more enjoyable movies overall.
Except TFA & TLJ DO have things that ARE explained. Those explanations rely on INFERENCE as well, same with TRoS, the prequels and every short film from Pixar. Even f%$king children’s cartoons rely on inference.
Except it IS impressive, because the Knights of Ren were trained and are skilled fighters - they’re more skilled than stormtroopers, who use blasters.
Most skilled normal fighters (outside of Mandalorians) are no match for a well-trained Jedi or Dark Jedi.
And? That’s not the point. Why else would Kylo Ren keep 'em around? Because they’re well-trained. They’re more of a threat to Resistance forces than stormtroopers. And all other Jedi (except Luke) were DEAD at the point he took 'em in.
And again, there was no indication Palps knew they were Force-sensitive.
If Snoke knew, then Palpatine would have known.
There’s no indication from the films Snoke knew, either.
I never said that, it’s just Palps personally wanted to be MORE powerful.
Well then if it’s just a matter of what he wanted, then any old able-bodied Force-sensitive would suffice. Guy would’ve been smart to dispatch some henchmen to search the galaxy for a few, just in case Oochi did something stupid like get himself killed in the desert while searching for Palpatine’s granddaughter.
[Camera zooms in like it’s an episode of The Office.]
That’s why Palpatine decided to turn Ben to the dark side.
Is there something wrong with that? No?
Sure there is. It robs the scenario of moral or thematic depth, and needlessly creates practical complication and confusion.
Again, subjective. I’d rather have my story make sense than have moral/thematic depth. And it is NOT confusing, as I’ve explained so many times in this thread.
This, alone, IMPLIES it works that way.
If something seems to work a certain way, and the best answer for why is circular (it works that way because we see it work that way), then it’s either a flawed concept or a flawed execution.
How is it flawed, exactly? It’s literally how it works in storytelling.
As I stated, Palpatine using Force lightning in RotJ, ALONE, implies he’s a powerful dark side Force-user and that only skilled dark side Force-users like him can use Force lightning. Why do you think neither Luke or Obi-Wan or Yoda or Vader use it?
Palpatine was OVERCONFIDENT. It’s something Luke spells out in RotJ: “Your overconfidence is your weakness.”
Sure, but overconfident doesn’t mean incompetent, and it certainly never has in Palpatine’s case.
Except Palpatine being overconfident DOES make him incompetent. Because of that, he’s so incompetent he doesn’t realize Vader’s about to pick him up and throw him into the shaft. In the same way, he doesn’t realize Rey’s gonna reflect his Force lightning onto his face, and he was hoping for her to die from his attack.