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What's Original '77 and What's Not?

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Quibbles about best visual quality aside, I found it so pleasant to watch the (by and large) unaltered, original version of Star Wars on DVD.

But I'm left with the nagging suspicion that, since all but the crawl is from the same source as the 1993 laserdiscs, a few things (mostly in the audio mix) are not '77 original. Of course, since there were different "authentic" audio mixes for the 1977 release, it's possible that sounds I am personally unfamiliar with from the many 70mm screenings I was fortunate enough to view were, in truth, featured on the 77 mono mix.

So, let's test our arcane Star Wars knowledge .... ready? Here we go ...


1) Coming out of hyperspace in the Falcon cockpit. Those swooshie sounds made by passing Alderaan asteroid debris. I first heard them in the second or perhaps third VHS release (the first in "HiFi" sound, heheh, remember that?). I thought they were new sound effects, but someone here in some thread recently alleged those asteroid sound effects were part of the 1977 mono mix? Anyone know the truth on this???

2) C-3POs tractor-beam location speech, and "Close the blast doors." Does anyone know difinitively which 1977 audio mix featured these lines? I remember hearing them from the get-go, and the first dozen or so times I saw Star Wars was in 70mm (the stereo mix). Yet many have claimed these bits of dialogue were only on the mono mix. Can anyone shed some light on this?

3) Prisoner transfer from Cell Block 1138. When Luke, Han and Chewbacca shoot it out with the Imperials in the cell block, I heard some sound effects, new to me, on that same "HiFi" VHS release and in every subsequent release ... specifically, the really loud sound of glass breaking (more like kicking in a tube-TV screen) every time a laser blast hit a surveillance camera. Anyone know whether these were on the '77 mono track, or if they were added later?

3) Ok, on the visual realm. Same cellblock scene (and perhaps others). Has anyone yet determined if the blaster hits are the "toned-down" versions of revisionism, or whether they are the slightly more violent '77 originals?

4) Lastly, the long-debated matter of the opening crawl. So much pre-release talk about it. Well, the DVD's been out for a week! Anyone care to venture a final answer? Original or a well-intentioned copy?


Any answers or insights will be greatly appreciated.


Thanks.
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3) Ok, on the visual realm. Same cellblock scene (and perhaps others). Has anyone yet determined if the blaster hits are the "toned-down" versions of revisionism, or whether they are the slightly more violent '77 originals?


They are original and uncensored.
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I downloaded mp3s of the mono and 70mm versions of the soundtrack recently, so I'll give them a listen.

I'm most familiar with whatever mix was used for the HBO airings in 1983, since I watched it nearly every time it was shown (hundreds of times....I have no idea exactly ) But the 1993 mix is very close to the mix that was on HBO (I'm guessing they used the 35mm stereo mix?)

Also, someone said that the French and Spanish tracks on the R1 DVD use the mono soundtrack- I don't know if that's true or not, but it might be worth investigating.

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The biggest audio additions from the 1993 re-mix are the asteroid whooshing sounds, the re-done security camera things exploding in the cell block, and more gunfire in that scene as well. The garbage chute scene had more motors and stuff added and i think the sound of the Dai Noga hiding right before the walls start to close. I think the "here they come" sequence had a lot of extra sounds and sweeting done to it as well. Someone made a list with all the additions and theres about a dozen more minor ones but those stand out as the major additions.
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This thread has a link posted today to the mono mix from a UK TV broadcast, courtesy of Moth3r.
This thread has a link to an in-theater recording of the 70mm mix, courtesy of morgands1.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Also, someone said that the French and Spanish tracks on the R1 DVD use the mono soundtrack- I don't know if that's true or not, but it might be worth investigating.
.


Well, I just listened to some of it and it is definatley different that the english mix.

Thanks for the DL's Mallwalker.
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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen


1) Coming out of hyperspace in the Falcon cockpit. Those swooshie sounds made by passing Alderaan asteroid debris. I first heard them in the second or perhaps third VHS release (the first in "HiFi" sound, heheh, remember that?). I thought they were new sound effects, but someone here in some thread recently alleged those asteroid sound effects were part of the 1977 mono mix? Anyone know the truth on this??? Having just had a quick listen, I don't hear the swooshie sounds on either the mono or 70mm sdtks.

2) C-3POs tractor-beam location speech, and "Close the blast doors." Does anyone know difinitively which 1977 audio mix featured these lines? I remember hearing them from the get-go, and the first dozen or so times I saw Star Wars was in 70mm (the stereo mix). Yet many have claimed these bits of dialogue were only on the mono mix. Can anyone shed some light on this?
The lines are present the mono version, and NOT present on the 70mm version.

3) Prisoner transfer from Cell Block 1138. When Luke, Han and Chewbacca shoot it out with the Imperials in the cell block, I heard some sound effects, new to me, on that same "HiFi" VHS release and in every subsequent release ... specifically, the really loud sound of glass breaking (more like kicking in a tube-TV screen) every time a laser blast hit a surveillance camera. Anyone know whether these were on the '77 mono track, or if they were added later?
I didn't hear glass breaking sounds on either the mono or 70mm.

3) Ok, on the visual realm. Same cellblock scene (and perhaps others). Has anyone yet determined if the blaster hits are the "toned-down" versions of revisionism, or whether they are the slightly more violent '77 originals?
Those edits were done for the 1997 SEs. They're still present on the '04 DVDs, but they're not on the OOT DVDs.

4) Lastly, the long-debated matter of the opening crawl. So much pre-release talk about it. Well, the DVD's been out for a week! Anyone care to venture a final answer? Original or a well-intentioned copy?
The crawl is faithful to the 1977 version- but I guess the debate as to whether or not it's the real film crawl or a digitally re-created one will go on.



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What about Aunt Beru's voice?
40,000 million notches away
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Yeah, was Beru's original Aussie voice ever heard in any version?

Thanks for the responses so far, folks. They are in line with what I've surmised from my long experience, but I haven't done any actual research.

Of the "sweetening" sounds added post-'77, the surveillance camera explosions and the asteroid swooshes really stand out, bug me no end, and pull me right out of the 1977 euphoria granted me by the opening crawl - which, if it is a fake, is a darn good one. My gut tells me it's a fake, btw.


Of course, my gut also told me that 3PO's tractorbeam rant and a stormtrooper's "Close the blast doors" were in the 70mm, stereo mix that I saw many times June thru September in '77. After that, thru the end of the year, I saw the film in a second-run house that must have had the mono mix, and that's where I must have picked up those lines of dialogue. Hence, I will forgive their absense from the newly released DVD.


I wish those later-added sound effects didn't bug me so much. Other folks are bugged by the ghosting, the grain, the non-anamorphicality ... but I am only bothered by the non-seventysevenness in a product labled "original theatrical release." Bah.


(oh well, to each his own quibble.)


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The file name indicates it's an AC3 file. Do you have anything that can play AC3 (Dolby Digital/A52) files?
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Obi Jeewhyen: The exploding glass sounds in particular bug me as well, and I know for a fact they were not present on any of the three original '77 sound mixes, nor are they on the '85 remix (which I grew up with on vhs). The first time they appeared in an English-language track was in the '93 remix made for the Definitive Collection laserdiscs, the master for which was used to make the '06 GOUT dvd's.

In the preservation section, Belbecus has a thread about the making of the '93 mix, quoting an article interviewing a recording engineer who worked on the mix, who stated that the mix is primarily derived from the six-track 70mm, with additional sound effects added by Ben Burtt, most of which were taken from various foreign language mixes made in late '77 and '78. The exploding glass sounds most likely fall into this category, and are therefore nearly 'original', just not for mixes used in any English-speaking countries. They're not on the French of Spanish tracks included on the GOUT dvd, but these would probably have been among the first foreign tracks made. The glass may not have been added until later for some more obscure language. We'll probably never know for sure . . .

I've become more accustomed to hearing these sounds, from repeated exposure to the '93 mix, but I still prefer them to not be there. But that's where Belbecus' upcoming release of the original stereo and mono tracks will come in handy, so we can make custom dvd's according to our own sound preferences. I can't wait.
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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Yeah, was Beru's original Aussie voice ever heard in any version?
The mono version has different vocal takes, but her accent is still American. To me, it sounds like the same actress, just alternate looping. I prefer the vocals on the 70mm version.

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About the opening crawl...

If you watch it closely, you can see that the stars wobble like hell, but the text doesn't. one might immediately assume that it is a digital recreation, but if you look at the crawl from Empire of Dreams, it does the exact same thing. Now I don't know if anyone knows for sure where the EOD crawl came from, but if anyone can say for a fact that it was a direct film capture, I'll believe that the GOUT crawl is the real deal plus some minor cleanup and color correction.

My Projects:
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Originally posted by: Zion
About the opening crawl...

If you watch it closely, you can see that the stars wobble like hell, but the text doesn't. one might immediately assume that it is a digital recreation, but if you look at the crawl from Empire of Dreams, it does the exact same thing. Now I don't know if anyone knows for sure where the EOD crawl came from, but if anyone can say for a fact that it was a direct film capture, I'll believe that the GOUT crawl is the real deal plus some minor cleanup and color correction.


I don't have any hard evidence beyond my personal experience but i would be willing to bet my entire familys life that the EOD crawl is genuine and from a film source.
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As do I.
I think that it 1. either sourced from the negative, or 2. sourced from the Technicolor print
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Someone needs to do a layered composite of the two crawls to see if they sync up down to the pixel.
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Originally posted by: zombie84
Someone needs to do a layered composite of the two crawls to see if they sync up down to the pixel.
It's not necessary... the crawl is obviously an optical composite.. here, I'll show you...

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9091/crawlhf3.gif

Notice 2 things... on the "a" is a "dark star" that goes over the text, and over the "e" a scratch appears in 1 frame. This would not be the case if it was a digital recreation.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Sound mixes (English) for the original ANH:

1. Original Theatrical 70mm 6-track mix
2. Original Theatrical 35mm Dolby Stereo
3. Original Theatrical mono mix
4. 1985 digitally remastered mix
5. 1993 THX-certified digitally remastered mix

The original 70mm and 35mm Dolby mixes are very similar - the 70mm obviously having a "weightier" presence, but there are a few spots where the effects mix differs noticeably.

The mono mix was redone from scratch, and features the addition of stormtrooper and C-3PO lines, additional sound effects, and different ADR (e.g. Beru's dialogue and Luke's "Blast it Wedge"). See The Starkiller's Guide.

The 1985 digitally remastered mix was based on the Dolby Stereo mix. Threepio's line from the mono mix was added, and it was mixed with a wider stereo image (possibly to address the overly conservative approach used in early Dolby Stereo mixes).

The 1993 mix, as found on the '06 DVDs, was supposedly a combination of the best elements of the original 3 mixes, but mostly based on a downmix of the 70mm version. Some of the effects from the mono mix were added in, but they forgot the additional stormtrooper and C-3PO lines. Some additional new material was also added - see this thread for a list of differences between the 70mm and the '93 mixes.

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The jury is still out over the crawl thing. On the one hand we have highly regarded film and video authorities such as Laserman and mverta who say they spotted its fakeness straight away. And then we have the little bits of evidence such as posted by boris that suggest it is real.

To be honest, it doesn't bother me one way or the other. I know this will probably seem like a travesty to some of you, but I prefer the 1981 version with Episode IV, A New Hope, because it retains the consistency with Empire and Jedi.

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Originally posted by: Knightmessenger
After downloading the mono file, I got the dreaded "windows cannot open this type of file" message. The file type is unknown and windows does not recognize it. Can anyone help.
As Scruffy rightly states, this is a Dolby Digital (AC-3) audio file. If you have a software DVD player such as PowerDVD, then that should be able to play it (try right-click, Open With). Also, if you have PowerDVD installed then you should automatically have the correct filters installed to be able to play the file in Windows Media Player.

Other players, such as Media Player Classic, include a built-in AC3 audio decoder.

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Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: zombie84
Someone needs to do a layered composite of the two crawls to see if they sync up down to the pixel.
It's not necessary... the crawl is obviously an optical composite.. here, I'll show you...

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9091/crawlhf3.gif

Notice 2 things... on the "a" is a "dark star" that goes over the text, and over the "e" a scratch appears in 1 frame. This would not be the case if it was a digital recreation.



Wow, nice catch Boris! If you also look at the "N" there is another star that overlaps at the edge as well.

Well, that settles it for me. This looks like the real deal.

Now, i wonder--is the entire opening shot (ie crawl+stardestroyer) a new transfer as well? Because that original shot on the laserdisk had a different starfield did it not? Or is the new crawl simply blended with the old star destroyer shot? I ask this because if the whole thing is from a new transfer that may indicate that LFL has material ready for a pristine transfer of the OOT, and may even have already done such a scan.
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Originally posted by: zombie84
Wow, nice catch Boris! If you also look at the "N" there is another star that overlaps at the edge as well. Yes, the stars do overlap, it's just easier to see with this "dark" one at it's original size. I already reported this is the case in another thread, I guess you need to *show* people sometimes. Interestingly enough you're watching the footage in reverse... in rewind... I just couldn't be bothered re-ordering the frames.Well, that settles it for me. This looks like the real deal.

Now, i wonder--is the entire opening shot (ie crawl+stardestroyer) a new transfer as well?
It seems to be, the stardestroyer has a thicker black matte-line when compared to caps from the laserdisc.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: zombie84
Someone needs to do a layered composite of the two crawls to see if they sync up down to the pixel.
It's not necessary... the crawl is obviously an optical composite.. here, I'll show you...

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9091/crawlhf3.gif

Notice 2 things... on the "a" is a "dark star" that goes over the text, and over the "e" a scratch appears in 1 frame. This would not be the case if it was a digital recreation.


It is really weird watching it go backwards.