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What do you think of the Sequel Trilogy? - a general discussion thread — Page 3

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I recommend these videos as they touch on the subject of the poetry angle to a degree.

https://youtu.be/Btp1BoGbuiM

https://youtu.be/NvlWSsZwLn0

https://youtu.be/gUKvHwjcfIQ

It’s more than a repetitive device. It’s about creating links between the two trilogies of two different generations of people and a family. They’re one of the same yet different from each other. The Original Trilogy on its own really follows the trajectory. Mind you it’s to a lesser extent but it’s there. The trilogy has lots of parallels within its own narrative. IV and VI correlate in certain ways. Just as V and VI do. The Prequels do it within their own narrative as well. It’s not about copying but creating moments that are poetic yet different from each other. Just like written poetry. The Sequels tried but ended up copying and pasting a lot of the time. The Last Jedi I find gets closest to getting it right in connecting the whole saga together. It doesn’t fully but it does succeed at times.

I’d prefer the final word in the Skywalker saga being George’s vision and having what comes after it beginning the process of creating something new and more experimental. It can mix it up and go in different directions as it’s not beholden to the established rules of the saga films. I would have welcomed new takes and spins with open arms as the story that was intended as a nine part saga was completed as the original author intended.

It honestly doesn’t bother me when creators of work go in a different direction than that of what fans want. They’re not there to please us. It’s when someone else has a responsibility to continue a story that I have a problem. It’s the difference between one vision and that of a corporation in a way. One does it for the joy of telling their own tale, while the other does it to max out on profits.

I wish I had more of a favourable view of the Sequels like you do. The only time I find I do is when I see them as disconnected from George’s story. As their own thing they are pretty enjoyable popcorn flicks but as a conclusion to what he started I find they don’t work for me. Star Wars was always a collection of art films with aspects of popcorn flicks to entertain. I find they’re now just the latter and nothing more.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

I recommend these videos as they touch on the subject of the poetry angle to a degree.

https://youtu.be/Btp1BoGbuiM

https://youtu.be/NvlWSsZwLn0

https://youtu.be/gUKvHwjcfIQ

It’s more than a repetitive device. It’s about creating links between the two trilogies of two different generations and families. They’re one of the same yet different from each other. The Original Trilogy on its own really follows the trajectory. Mind you it’s to a lesser extent but it’s there. The trilogy has lots of parallels within its own narrative. IV and VI correlate in certain ways. Just as V and VI do. The Prequels do it within their own narrative as well. It’s not about copying but creating moments that are poetic yet different from each other. Just like written poetry. The Sequels tried but ended up copying and pasting a lot of the time. The Last Jedi I find gets closest to getting it right in connecting the whole saga together. It doesn’t fully but it does succeed at times.

Again, it just strikes me as formulaic in a bad way when it comes to the PT and ST. Derivative, not poetic. I get the importance of the visuals and the poetry of it, along with the repetition, but it just comes off as a derivative quality whenever the PT or the ST come into the equation. It’s why I appreciate prequel rewrites that deviate greatly from the originals. Also, I find AOTC and ROTS to be on the same quality level as The Room and Nothing But Trouble, with all the after-the-fact justifications being flailing to try and counter-act the fairly correct assessment of the movies from their contemporary time.

I’d prefer the final word in the Skywalker saga being George’s vision and having what comes after it beginning the process of creating something new and more experimental. It can mix it up and go in different directions as it’s not beholden to the established rules of the saga films. I would have welcomed new takes and spins with open arms as the story that was intended as a nine part saga was completed as the original author intended.

“Original author” is where I lose interest. For me, George was the problem with the PT. Nobody was there to tell him no to his more outlandish ideas. If another director came in and gave his story beats something better, then a bunch of us would have a better opinion of the PT. I’d compare the PT to the first few seasons of TNG or Star Trek: The Motion Picture in terms of being misguided creatively. Heck, the comparisons to The Room and Nothing But Trouble are apt in how the “ultimate auteur experience” is nigh-unwatchable.

It honestly doesn’t bother me when creators of work go in a different direction than that of what fans want. They’re not there to please us. It’s when someone else has a responsibility to continuing a story that I have a problem. It’s the difference between one vision and that of a corporation in a way. One does it for the joy of telling their own tale, while the other does it to max out on profits.

As if the prequels weren’t made to max out on profits. Lionizing George’s intentions, when one considers the merch push during the PT time, is sketchy to me.

Besides, a few important beats of George’s story carried through (elder Luke, female protagonist, etc.). I know it’s not enough for some, but a lot of us wouldn’t have wanted to see a story that doubled down on the weaknesses of the PT.

I wish I had more of a favourable view of the Sequels like you do. The only time I find I do is when I see them as disconnected from George’s story. As their own thing they are pretty enjoyable popcorn flicks but as a conclusion to what he started I find they don’t work for me. Star Wars was always a collection of art films with aspects of popcorn flicks to entertain. I find they’re now just the latter and nothing more.

I find them a worthy conclusion to a nine-part series that’s 2/3 questionable (or 5/9, depending on your opinion of ROTJ). Heck, I even like the idea of OT-ST with no PT at times (really, OT + TLJ). If anything, there was some relief on my part that the series can now focus on serialized programs and one-offs that fill out other realms of the universe. It doesn’t have to follow the Skywalkers, Solos, Palpatines, or the two droids.

George is now Gene Roddenberry or Yuji Naka - he got it started and built the fictional world, but other people can play with said world/story and create their own stories from it that don’t need to play by the original rules. Granted, George never interrupted a filming shoot to describe how an alien species mated or made Balan Wonderworld, so I guess he has that above Roddenberry and Naka (respectively).

I’m thankful for what George did, but no fictional universe needs to be 100% dependent on a creator or their vision. I can see where you find the disconnect, but I don’t see it as much. If anything, I see a PT-rest of the movies disconnect that fan edits can help resolve. I guess that’s all I have to really say on it.

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I respectfully disagree. I don’t really see George as someone who was trying to max out on profits with the Prequels. I see what he did as giving endless creativity to collectors and recouping his investment in order to stay independent. He had to make his investment back in more ways than just the films. It’s the complete opposite of what Disney did with X-Wings and TIE Fighters. They made everything look like the Original Trilogy as they wanted to make something that they felt was Star Wars. It may look like it to some extent but I don’t think it entirely feels like it.

They did carry over a few things but it’s the execution of the ideas that seems to be vastly different. I never saw midi-chlorians as a weakness to the story. I think they add an extra layer when you consider the Whills angle. I equally don’t mind the political storybeats as Star Wars has always been political. I honestly don’t see the criticisms of the Prequels as detrimental to my enjoyment of them.

I would have been right there with you completely if the story that George started didn’t feel incomplete. The difference from my estimate and I could be completely wrong is that Gene Roddenberry got to tell his stories before someone else came into the picture to expand his work or he at least was still involved in some way. I’ve never been the biggest Star Trek fan but I have enjoyed Next Generation in the times I’ve watched it. I’d probably feel differently if I were more invested in the original series.

It’s all ultimately subjective. No one answer is correct but I do think the original creator no matter who they are should be given the chance to complete their life’s work. Unfortunately life doesn’t always go the way we want it to and this is a case of that.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

It’s all ultimately subjective. No one answer is correct but I do think the original creator no matter who they are should be given the chance to complete their life’s work. Unfortunately life doesn’t always go the way we want it to and this is a case of that.

I mean, George sold his life’s work for $4 billion. He didn’t have to do that. Disney didn’t steal it from him. Sounds like Iger gave him the impression they would follow his treatments more closely than they did, but he just as well could’ve made the Sequel Trilogy on his own terms.

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Stardust1138 said:

I respectfully disagree. I don’t really see George as someone who was trying to max out on profits with the Prequels. I see what he did as giving endless creativity to collectors and recouping his investment in order to stay independent. He had to make his investment back in more ways than just the films. It’s the complete opposite of what Disney did with X-Wings and TIE Fighters. They made everything look like the Original Trilogy as they wanted to make something that they felt was Star Wars. It may look like it to an extent but I don’t think it entirely feels like it.

That’s a fair assessment of it and I can respect that. I do miss the “evolutionary” trajectory of the ships in the PT-OT and I wish it continued in a more substantial way in the ST beyond minor adjustments.

They did carry over a few things but it’s the execution of the ideas that seems to be different. J never saw midi-chlorians as a weakness to the story. I think they add an extra layer. Especially when you consider the Whills angle. I equally don’t mind the political storybeats as Star Wars has always been political.

Indeed, I don’t mind the political aspects of it. Heck, it’s one of the parts of the prequels I enjoy and I wish there had been more of it in the sequels. I respectfully disagree about midi-chlorians and the Whills due to how they “de-mystify” the Force.

Then again, I feel that way about a lot of stuff. I’ve never been keen on Raava-Vaatu in the ATLA series, as I like the idea of the Avatar being completely obscured to even the wisest sages of the four nations. Granted, the Raava-Vaatu conflict gave us all the bits of Korra Books 3 and 4 that I liked, so it’s a wash.

I honestly would’ve been right there with you if the story that George started didn’t feel incomplete.

I’d say I-VI is pretty complete if that’s any consolation. ROTJ is a pretty conclusive ending for me, with those bits of poetic cycles completed. I even like how the film cuts from the heroes of the PT (Shaw or Hayden, take your pick) to the heroes of the OT in the last two shots.

The difference from my estimate and I could be completely wrong is that Gene Roddenberry got to tell his stories before someone else came into the picture to expand his work. I’ve never been the biggest Star Trek fan but I have enjoyed Next Generation in the times I’ve watched it.

It’s more that Roddenberry got kicked out of power when people realized that he wasn’t that good at writing dialogue or developing fallible characters. The “Roddenberry box” was a phenomenon that TNG writers and staff complained about, as Roddenberry told them that fallible people wouldn’t exist in his universe. I might be misrepresenting that, but the point remains. He didn’t really get to tell all of his stories beyond seasons 1-2 of TNG and the first Trek movie. He just got kicked up into a position where other directors and writers would do whatever they wanted and they just ran some basic stuff by him.

It’s all ultimately subjective. No one answer is correct but I do think the original creator no matter who they are should be given the chance to complete their life’s work. Unfortunately life doesn’t always go the way we want it to and this is a case of that.

Well said. I respectfully disagree about the “one creator completing their story” angle (I hate auteur theory and/or “protection from editors”), but I can completely see where you’re coming from. I get why I-VI is more enjoyable than I-IX to you, especially from the storytelling perspective and your interpretation of the series. I wish I could like the prequels as you do, I really do.

I do like that two people can get such different things from the series and that it can provide for respectful, thoughtful debate. I wish my Star Wars debates on other platforms (e.g., reddit and discord servers) went as well as this.

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RogueLeader said:

Stardust1138 said:

It’s all ultimately subjective. No one answer is correct but I do think the original creator no matter who they are should be given the chance to complete their life’s work. Unfortunately life doesn’t always go the way we want it to and this is a case of that.

I mean, George sold his life’s work for $4 billion. He didn’t have to do that. Disney didn’t steal it from him. Sounds like Iger gave him the impression they would follow his treatments more closely than they did, but he just as well could’ve made the Sequel Trilogy on his own terms.

George is getting up there in years. He had a choice between devoting another ten or so years of his life to another trilogy, or to spending that time with his family. It’s understandable why he decided to hand the series off at his age. And he and Bob Iger spent quite a long time negotiating the sale, with George wanting a more firm promise that his treatments would be used. But George ultimately gave in and settled for a verbal assurance from Iger.

(Of course, he could have worked on the ST earlier, but back in 2005, he insisted that there never was going to be an ST, so I suppose he didn’t want to back then.)

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RogueLeader, he didn’t have to but I respect his choice as ultimately he wanted to raise his daughter. I also really admire him donating the profits he made from the sell to philanthropy. I ultimately wish Disney had handled things differently. If they had just come right out and said they had chosen to go down a different path than what George intended as they wanted to make something they felt fans would enjoy more it may have gone down slightly better. Instead we were lead to believe his stories were still being used with only a few departures. It may have hurt as a devoted fan of George’s Star Wars but I think it would’ve created a lot less animosity between the fans and creators as they’d go in expecting something different than George’s style. I could be wrong on that but that’s at least how I feel to an extent.

I hope one day they release George’s complete Sequel Trilogy treatment.

BedeHistory731, definitely. It would’ve been great to see a natural progression that still very much feels like Star Wars.

I can respect that. The way you also talk about Avatar definitely makes me want to give it a chance as I’ve only seen maybe one or two episodes.

There’s definitely some formality to it. I think it’s just learning about George’s Sequel plans that kind of disrupted that for me. I definitely am finding that satisfying conclusion feeling to the first six films if I just forget everything that comes afterwards as I’m back to being a kid creating my own stories of what happens next.

That’s interesting. I was just reading too that he was getting increasingly ill and that’s why he brought others on board. I do wonder if his deteriorating health played any part in these things. We’ll probably never know for sure.

Thank you. I wish you could too. Haha. However that’s okay as at the end of the day we’re both Star Wars fans. We just have different views on the franchise. I’m sure we’d find more common ground than differences if we were to discuss the Originals. Hopefully in time I’ll be able to enjoy the Sequels more. I’m definitely excited to play the Crait and Takodana levels in the Lego game. So here’s hoping!

Same here. This forum is great for respectful debate that rarely I find turns completely sour. We may not always agree but I appreciate and enjoy reading your point of view. Afterall many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on it. Haha

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Lucas is the consummate control freak and perfectionist. The idea he would write a story and hand it over to someone else to mangle is frankly ridiculous. He could have only done it if he had decided to move on. Because he could just as easily have not sold Lucasfilm and filmed episode 7 himself and handed off film 8 and 9 to other directors while producing them and co-plotting the screenplays.

Especially considering how shrewd he was to hold onto the sequel rights and the control of these films in the first place with FOX, i find it hard to believe he was tricked by Iger somehow. I just don’t think he was all that interested he wanted to open a museum and enjoy retirement.

Lucas had like 7 years in between episode III and the sale. He spent all this time on Clone Wars the cartoon and the unmade underworld tv series, time he could have spent at least writing and getting episode 7 out the door. I submit he was more interested in the prequel era, if he was so excited about continuing Luke’s story he had from 1984 to 2012 in which to resume it. He never did. The prequels robbed us of direct sequels as did general lack of interest on George’s part. If the prequel era interested him that much and consumed him, who is to tell him no. He created Star Wars.

And finally even when he handed off to Disney he knew the movie sequels he wanted to make were a continuation and extension of the prequels, and that the fans would have hated them. And Disney rightly or wrongly also made the same judgement on those treatments that they were sequels to the prequels and not the OT, and weren’t going to spend billions of dollars on some weird non commercial midichlorian movie.

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JadedSkywalker said:

Lucas is the consummate control freak and perfectionist. The idea he would write a story and hand it over to someone else to mangle is frankly ridiculous. He could have only done it if he had decided to move on. Because he could just as easily have not sold Lucasfilm and filmed episode 7 himself and handed off film 8 and 9 to other directors while producing them and co-plotting the screenplays.

Especially considering how shrewd he was to hold onto the sequel rights and the control of these films in the first place with FOX, i find it hard to believe he was tricked by Iger somehow. I just don’t think he was all that interested he wanted to open a museum and enjoy retirement.

Lucas had like 7 years in between episode III and the sale. He spent all this time on Clone Wars the cartoon and the unmade underworld tv series, time he could have spent at least writing and getting episode 7 out the door. I submit he was more interested in the prequel era, if he was so excited about continuing Luke’s story he had from 1984 to 2012 in which to resume it. He never did. The prequels robbed us of direct sequels as did general lack of interest on George’s part. If the prequel era interested him that much and consumed him, who is to tell him no. He created Star Wars.

And finally even when he handed off to Disney he knew the movie sequels he wanted to make were a continuation and extension of the prequels, and that the fans would have hated them. And Disney rightly or wrongly also made the same judgement on those treatments that they were sequels to the prequels and not the OT, and weren’t going to spend billions of dollars on some weird non commercial midichlorian movie.

I see the complete opposite. I see someone who is very passionate about having their vision accurately portrayed. He himself has referred to his belief in the auteur theory. If he was truly egotistical he would’ve made Episode VII (he briefly considered) and then sold the company. He didn’t and I can’t blame the guy for believing in his vision. I also can’t blame him for being wary of having anyone else creating stories in his sandbox. Similar to how J.R.R. Tolkien was wary of Disney having the rights to his books. Authors are passionate and protective over their work.

To me The Clone Wars was his passion project to break into television. He also began writing his treatments for the sale in 2011. This is right after Darth Maul makes his return and we know he was the big bad. I think he was planting seeds in some ways of connecting the series and era to his Sequels. Whether it be with Darth Maul or the Yoda arc exploring the more metaphysical side of the Force or even the mystery of Sifo-Dyas. They were seeds planted I think to create lines.

The reason Underworld didn’t get made was because of cost. They were waiting for it to go down. It’s a shame as the series and 1313 would’ve been very intriguing looks at the galaxy that I don’t think we’ll see under Disney.

Mark Hamill also has the story in the 80’s of George asking him to return in 2011 and that the Sequels could end in another plane of existence. There’s also Steven Spielberg saying in the 90’s that part of George’s concept for the Sequels was rooted in doing the first three and then the Prequels to that.

I see his Sequels as a continuation of both the Prequels and Originals. I see something that would’ve brought both trilogies together while giving us something new to contemplate.

It’s hard to say if the fans would hate them as The Clone Wars was vastly popular. Not every fan hated the Prequels and the kids who grew up with them were coming of age. Same with the return of Luke, Leia, and Han. I think his Sequels would’ve done just fine.

Ultimately it wasn’t to be and I’m still trying to accept that.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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I see Star Wars in general as being a ‘band effort’ rather than the sole vision of one man. Yes, SW is/was Lucas’ creation, but the input of folks like Kurtz, Dykstra, MacQuarrie, Johnston, Burt, Marcia Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan etc etc really helped shape this universe significantly. If anything I see the PT as the equivalent of Mick Jagger reforming the Stones with an all-new lineup. So I don’t buy into the ‘George as canon’ thing at all. A Lucas-ST probably would’ve sucked.

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Shopping Maul said:

I see Star Wars in general as being a ‘band effort’ rather than the sole vision of one man. Yes, SW is/was Lucas’ creation, but the input of folks like Kurtz, Dykstra, MacQuarrie, Johnston, Burt, Marcia Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan etc etc really helped shape this universe significantly. If anything I see the PT as the equivalent of Mick Jagger reforming the Stones with an all-new lineup. So I don’t buy into the ‘George as canon’ thing at all. A Lucas-ST probably would’ve sucked.

Harsh. But fair.

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JadedSkywalker said:

some weird non commercial midichlorian movie.

That’s not the sequel trilogy that Lucas pitched. He’s had four entirely separate ideas for STs (that we know about, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were many more we don’t know about), and chronologically, it seems like that’s the second one of the four.

Shopping Maul said:

I see Star Wars in general as being a ‘band effort’ rather than the sole vision of one man. Yes, SW is/was Lucas’ creation, but the input of folks like Kurtz, Dykstra, MacQuarrie, Johnston, Burt, Marcia Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan etc etc really helped shape this universe significantly. If anything I see the PT as the equivalent of Mick Jagger reforming the Stones with an all-new lineup. So I don’t buy into the ‘George as canon’ thing at all. A Lucas-ST probably would’ve sucked.

I 100% agree, and that’s probably the best explanation why I prefer the sequels to the prequels. The ST was made by fans, and while the fans have some pretty crazy ideas of what Star Wars is, they have a more holistic view. The prequels were just George Lucas putting in his own contribution, lacking everyone else’s vision which made Star Wars what it is.

Death of the Author

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SparkySywer said:

JadedSkywalker said:

some weird non commercial midichlorian movie.

That’s not the sequel trilogy that Lucas pitched. He’s had four entirely separate ideas for STs (that we know about, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were many more we don’t know about), and chronologically, it seems like that’s the second one of the four.

Shopping Maul said:

I see Star Wars in general as being a ‘band effort’ rather than the sole vision of one man. Yes, SW is/was Lucas’ creation, but the input of folks like Kurtz, Dykstra, MacQuarrie, Johnston, Burt, Marcia Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan etc etc really helped shape this universe significantly. If anything I see the PT as the equivalent of Mick Jagger reforming the Stones with an all-new lineup. So I don’t buy into the ‘George as canon’ thing at all. A Lucas-ST probably would’ve sucked.

I 100% agree, and that’s probably the best explanation why I prefer the sequels to the prequels. The ST was made by fans, and while the fans have some pretty crazy ideas of what Star Wars is, they have a more holistic view. The prequels were just George Lucas putting in his own contribution, lacking everyone else’s vision which made Star Wars what it is.

In other words, the problem with the PT was that George Lucas had nobody to reign him in, whilst the ST had the opposite problem, which was that there wasn’t a single creative vision driving the trilogy.

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fmalover said:

SparkySywer said:

JadedSkywalker said:

some weird non commercial midichlorian movie.

That’s not the sequel trilogy that Lucas pitched. He’s had four entirely separate ideas for STs (that we know about, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were many more we don’t know about), and chronologically, it seems like that’s the second one of the four.

Shopping Maul said:

I see Star Wars in general as being a ‘band effort’ rather than the sole vision of one man. Yes, SW is/was Lucas’ creation, but the input of folks like Kurtz, Dykstra, MacQuarrie, Johnston, Burt, Marcia Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan etc etc really helped shape this universe significantly. If anything I see the PT as the equivalent of Mick Jagger reforming the Stones with an all-new lineup. So I don’t buy into the ‘George as canon’ thing at all. A Lucas-ST probably would’ve sucked.

I 100% agree, and that’s probably the best explanation why I prefer the sequels to the prequels. The ST was made by fans, and while the fans have some pretty crazy ideas of what Star Wars is, they have a more holistic view. The prequels were just George Lucas putting in his own contribution, lacking everyone else’s vision which made Star Wars what it is.

In other words, the problem with the PT was that George Lucas had nobody to reign him in, whilst the ST had the opposite problem, which was that there wasn’t a single creative vision driving the trilogy.

Exactly. Bringing in multiple sources of creative input is good, and can enhance a story through the collaboration of different people who can run ideas off each other. But there still needs to be some guiding creative vision to ensure that different people’s ideas aren’t in conflict with one another. So in a way, both the PT and ST are different cautionary tales about the creative process.

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fmalover said:

In other words, the problem with the PT was that George Lucas had nobody to reign him in, whilst the ST had the opposite problem, which was that there wasn’t a single creative vision driving the trilogy.

Exactly.

All 3 films were not sequels to each other. This is a failure on all levels, from management/producers to the directors themselves for not having any cohesive communication with each other.

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SparkySywer said:

This has been said probably a trillion times on here, but 7 and 8 link together just fine.

I still disagree, for a number of smaller reasons, but also for one fundamental reason: the treatment of Luke in TFA. TFA makes finding Luke the central object of the whole film. The heroes and villains are both obsessed with this end goal, and both speak of it as a massive game-changer that will determine the course of the war. Snoke is deeply concerned about stopping Luke’s return so that he can’t train a new generation of Jedi, despite Luke exiling himself to an island willingly and wanting to die. Leia, despite having led the war by herself thus far after Luke and Han both abandoned her, is convinced that finding Luke will turn the tide. There’s also a map pointing to Luke for some reason, despite Luke not wanting to be found. The opening crawl of TFA even implies that the First Order rose to power largely because of Luke’s absence.

So, the whole of TFA chooses to center itself around Luke, hyping up Luke to the audience and stressing his importance in shaping the course of the war. The movie tells its viewers that Luke leaving was a huge deal to the galaxy, and that Luke returning will also be a huge deal. Luke is just one person, but the movie makes him out to be a larger-than-life hero (which he never was in the OT. Luke was always much more human than that.) who could reshape the galaxy. Someone who is extremely important to both the good guys and bad guys for what he could potentially do.

JJ Abrams even wanted the movie to end with Luke surrounded by floating rocks, to wow the audience by showing off how powerful Luke was.

Then in TLJ, the movie “defies expectations” by pointing out that Luke isn’t actually the larger-than-life superhero TFA made him out to be (of course, TFA is what established that expectation in the first place), and goes in the extreme opposite direction to paint him as an impotent failure who wants nothing to do with the galaxy. Which raises the question: why did they bother hyping up Luke so much, then telling the audience they were wrong for getting excited about Luke? Perhaps it was all part of the plan from the start to “mess with audience expectations”, but that doesn’t explain JJ wanting to show off Luke’s power at the end of TFA. More likely, JJ and Rian just had conflicting visions for the role they wanted Luke to play in the trilogy’s story.

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Servii said:

JJ Abrams even wanted the movie to end with Luke surrounded by floating rocks, to wow the audience by showing off how powerful Luke was.

I remember reading that interview, and frankly I find that to be a very asinine idea, confirming that all Abrams is capable of doing is officially sanctioned big budget fan films.

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Servii said:

JJ Abrams even wanted the movie to end with Luke surrounded by floating rocks, to wow the audience by showing off how powerful Luke was.

I’m sure this would have been a cool shot. But now I’m really doubting JJ Abrams. This sounds like Luke would still have been connected to the Force when Rey finds him (which, to be fair, is maybe why they scrapped it). So Luke would have been on that island, ready and waiting to join the fight for… what? We know from TESB he can sense when Han and Leia are in pain or danger, so I hate the idea of him being able to sense that but not doing anything about it. He needed to have cut himself off from the Force, so the Force couldn’t influence his resolve as much.

People talk about Luke wanting to remain on the island as a ‘subversion of expectations’. But I always wonder why that wasn’t the expectation. In TFA, Han said that when one Jedi student destroyed Luke’s new Jedi order, “Luke felt responsible”… he just walked away from everything." Luke is on the island for a reason and Rian Johnson just had the task of explaining that as best he could. It’s beginning to sound like JJ and maybe Lawrence Kasdan were ok with Luke’s exile just being a set up for the sake of an interesting story structure, without any explanation or logic.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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jedi_bendu said:

Servii said:

JJ Abrams even wanted the movie to end with Luke surrounded by floating rocks, to wow the audience by showing off how powerful Luke was.

I’m sure this would have been a cool shot. But now I’m really doubting JJ Abrams. This sounds like Luke would still have been connected to the Force when Rey finds him (which, to be fair, is maybe why they scrapped it). So Luke would have been on that island, ready and waiting to join the fight for… what? We know from TESB he can sense when Han and Leia are in pain or danger, so I hate the idea of him being able to sense that but not doing anything about it. He needed to have cut himself off from the Force, so the Force couldn’t influence his resolve as much.

People talk about Luke wanting to remain on the island as a ‘subversion of expectations’. But I always wonder why that wasn’t the expectation. In TFA, Han said that when one Jedi student destroyed Luke’s new Jedi order, “Luke felt responsible”… he just walked away from everything." Luke is on the island for a reason and Rian Johnson just had the task of explaining that as best he could. It’s beginning to sound like JJ and maybe Lawrence Kasdan were ok with Luke’s exile just being a set up for the sake of an interesting story structure, without any explanation or logic.

From what I’ve heard, Rian asked JJ to scrap the rocks. But JJ still wanted to have Luke in Jedi robes in the final shot, so that’s why Luke changes clothes almost immediately in TLJ.

Han saying that about Luke definitely points the story in a certain direction that implies Luke is done with the world and has turned his back on everyone. Which makes it all the more confusing why the film chooses to focus so heavily on “We gotta find Luke.” Arguably, it could make sense for the new heroes to focus on that (though Han and Leia should both know better than to expect Luke to help them), but why would the First Order and Snoke care so specifically about a washed up old Jedi who’s cut himself off from the Force? TFA couldn’t really seem to make up its mind on the role Luke was going to play.

TFA’s whole central plot, the “map to Luke,” really makes more sense from a meta perspective than it does in-universe. One exiled old former Jedi isn’t that big of a deal in the ongoing conflict, but every character fixates on it and trying to figure out where Luke is, because that’s what the writers assumed the audience would be fixating on. So going into TLJ after two years of waiting, with the sudden tonal whiplash of Luke tossing the saber over his shoulder and walking off, it does come off as either differing visions or a deliberate bait-and-switch.

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I’d also add to the thought about Snoke and the First Order.

“If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise.”

To me the line implies Luke would’ve come out of exile in J.J.'s version of Episode VIII and rebuilt the Jedi Order over the course of the film and possibly Episode IX too. I could see Rey helping too.

J.J. said he was surprised most by and in his own words how dark Luke was portrayed in The Last Jedi. Daisy also said his plans were vastly different from what we got.

We know in George’s Sequels he planned to have Luke rebuild the Jedi throughout the trilogy and equally there’s a snippet of Rick Carter in The Force Awakens behind the scenes documentary talking about as the trilogy goes along that we’d discover the true nature of the Force or something like that. I remember also Kathleen Kennedy saying they merely changed the history and order of George’s ideas but didn’t make wholesale changes. Maybe at the time that was true but it doesn’t always add up either in light of Bob Iger’s book.

It seems to me like there were too many clashing visions and ideas floated around. It seems like they may or may not have originally planned to follow more of George’s plan with the Jedi and the Force through his and J.J.'s ideas. However they decided to let Rian start fresh away from these notes or whatever it was J.J. wrote out. Rian did talk about asking to be given a clean slate from notions J.J. came up with. He was granted permission.

It seems like he had nobody to reel it all in to create continuity and consistency with The Force Awakens and vise versa. It seemed to be what the Story Group was set up to do but they didn’t bat an eye or notice the inconsistenciess. It ended up being like a relay race instead.

There’s honestly too much misinformation about the process to know what is and isn’t true with what was the plan and wasn’t the plan. The films reflect as much as there’s no real set ups and payoffs that feel earned throughout each of the three films.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Thinking Luke’s return would be a big deal makes sense in-universe. I mean, of course it does. Luke is the last Jedi. It’s a pretty normal reaction for the characters to have to Luke being gone. Luke not really wanting to return is also the most logical conclusion of what was set up in TFA: “Do you think that I came to the most unfindable place in the galaxy for no reason at all?”

This weird internet mythology that Rian Johnson’s prime motivation in making TLJ was to completely subvert expectations is just not true. He just said that phrase once behind the scenes and it got plastered all over the marketing. Rian constantly spoke about the exact opposite: TLJ was made as a straight line continuation from TFA.

Death of the Author

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The Rebellion didn’t treat Luke that way. They didn’t hinge all their hopes on whether or not he showed up to help. Despite his abilities, he was still just one man, and one small part of a larger faction. The fact that the Resistance is so hyper focused on recruiting someone who, as far as they know, abandoned their cause years ago, and is hopeful that he’ll return, is naive and reflects poorly on them.

He’s still just one man, regardless of his powers, and it takes a long time to train a new generation of Jedi, so that’s hardly an immediate concern for the First Order. The line in TLJ when Rey tells Luke he needs to “bring the Jedi back” to stop Kylo Ren is really odd, since it makes it seem like Luke can just flip a switch and restore the Jedi after years of sitting around.

It’s also odd that Snoke is more focused on finding Luke than he is on destroying the Republic. His priorities seem backwards. He and the First Order have much bigger fish to fry than an inactive Luke who might be a potential threat in the future, yet Snoke talks about finding Luke like it’s the most important step in winning the war. But if the Republic and Resistance were destroyed, Luke coming out of hiding would be a nuisance, at best.

I do agree, though, that TFA sets up certain plot points that TLJ had to work with, particularly involving Luke’s exile. And TLJ often wrongly gets blamed for creative choices already established in TFA.

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TLJ had the unenviable job of reconciling the characterization of Luke in TFA of being simultaneously a mere man with some Force power and also the most dangerous and powerful person in the galaxy, capable of singlehandedly saving or destroying empires.

I think making Luke into the cantankerous hermit he became is a fairly deft way of solving the problem, since it’s still imperative that Luke not take up too much of the air in the room and leave some for the new cast. Sure, it makes more sense for this Jedi Master to be actively working on a new Jedi Order but the same could be said for Yoda in ESB.

The problem of Luke is one of JJ trying to have his cake and eat it. Luke can’t simultaneously be the savior of the galaxy in perpetuity while also allowing the new heroes to shine. Luke’s death in my opinion was the first chance for the ST to really stand on its own creative feet, and it should have happened in TFA like the death of Obi-wan. Of course JJ couldn’t write an ending to Jenga so we got TROS, but the chance for greatness was there, set up by Rian’s necessary choice.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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7 and 8 do not link together. The characters from 7 are not the characters from 8, because both directors had their own interpretations. When people defend 8, they are defending their love of the movie and their parasocial love of Rian, not its cohesiveness in the trilogy or how well it meshes with the other 2 films.

Rey was someone in TFA, Rian decided she was “no one” and then JJ decided she was someone again. There is no way that Rian thought she was a secret Palpatine when he made 8.

Kylo was Vader obsessed in TFA, 4 minutes later in TLJ (in universe time) he isn’t, and ROS he is back to Vader obsessed.

Snoke was a mysterious new emperor in TFA, TLJ said he was a joke nobody, ROS then said he was back to being a mysterious new emperor (clone thing). This is on record that JJ did not expect Rian to kill off the big bad unceremoniously.

This is not saying JJ’s writing is good. This is saying that the two different directors clearly had different visions of what they wanted the characters to be.