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What do you think of the Sequel Trilogy? - a general discussion thread — Page 2

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There has been a bright side to all this. After TRoS released, I realized that I loved the setting and lore of Star Wars too much to just give up on it entirely. And while I have no love for what Star Wars has turned into, I won’t let that spoil my enjoyment of what Star Wars used to be. So in the end, my rejection of the ST is what led to me delving back into the EU after so many years, and to me learning about fan preservations. Through both of these, I’ve started to enjoy Star Wars again, in smaller doses.

And it’s a huge relief to know that I was wrong back in 2015 after watching TFA. I thought I had changed too much, that I couldn’t enjoy Star Wars anymore and that it was no longer for me. I know now that that’s incorrect. I’m apathetic about modern Star Wars, but not about Star Wars as a whole.

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With some clever writing in part three this could be something I enjoy despite a few very rough patches early on. Sort of like how the wonky Marvel movies lead up to some of the best scenes in the Infinity War plot. But I’m not really sure I can watch any of these again. I just don’t care now the conclusion is just a pathetic brainless product. Star Wars is still just a trilogy for me.

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Well this thread is kinda a downer, init?

Rather than repeat what everyone else has so eloquently enunciated about the flawed first two entries being entirely buried under the avalanche of TROS’s inadequacies, I think I’ll turn an optimistic eye toward…THE FUTURE BUM BUM BUM.

Y’all remember how the Prequels were the worst things ever which totally destroyed all interest in Star Wars until the kids who grew up with them got terminally online with their nostalgia and were backed up by the competent character resuscitation known as the Clone Wars?

The same thing’s gonna happen to the Sequels.

Give it eight to ten years and I all-but guarantee that the most glaring character deficiencies and plot holes of that entire time period will be enthusiastically backfilled by the creative team at Lucasfilm with the Thrawn streaming show and Resistance Rebooted Part IV or whatever they come up with to bridge the month between TLJ and TROS. We’ll all be looking back at TROS as that critical flop that nevertheless paved the way for the brilliant arc in Season 3 of Ahsoka where she confronts the Sith Eternal while Rey is simultaneously confronting the specter of Palpatine reborn.

The machine never ends, and even the most disastrous films are merely fodder for future stories where fan dissatisfaction is harnessed and transmogrified into jubilation when the narrative justice denied the films is retroactively rendered in cinematic CGI upon the small screen.

I guess that’s optimism, anyway.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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I don’t know about having an outline for the entire ST from the start. Remember the OT was pretty much done on the fly, and Christopher Nolan revealed that his Dark Knight trilogy was done one step at a time, as they had no idea where the story would go after Batman Begins.

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fmalover said:

I don’t know about having an outline for the entire ST from the start. Remember the OT was pretty much done on the fly, and Christopher Nolan revealed that his Dark Knight trilogy was done one step at a time, as they had no idea where the story would go after Batman Begins.

I think this shows that series of movies/episodes that aren’t planned from the start can work. However if you have a general story outline before you start out, it can make for a more rewarding viewing experience if you set things up and plant the seeds for story directions early on, and you’re less likely to go wrong.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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The ST is still infinitely better than the PT to me 🤷‍♂️.

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As flawed as the PT may be, the deep disappointment I felt after watching TFA gave me a newfound appreciation for the movies, and TLJ is the only one of the ST that feels like a natural progression of the saga.

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BedeHistory731 said:

The ST is still infinitely better than the PT to me 🤷‍♂️.

I still prefer the PT for a few reasons:

  1. There are fewer meta moments in the PT that take you out of the experience. TFA and TLJ, in particular, are very referential and have a very prominent “proscenium arch” that makes you feel like you’re watching a movie about Star Wars (or a Star Wars-themed park ride) rather than just a movie in the Star Wars universe. With the prequels, it’s easier for me to relax and immerse myself in the setting.

  2. Most of my issues with the prequels are more surface-level problems. The acting, the dialogue, the visuals and CGI. Conversely, the sequels nailed all the superficial aspects, but their failings are on a more structural level with the plot and characters. (The prequels do have plot and character problems, also. Just not as many.)

  3. The prequels have a more coherent overarching plot.

  4. Prequels are harder to write than sequels. The PT was constrained by needing to work through a series of events preestablished by the OT. So I’d argue some inconsistencies with the OT were hard to avoid. On the other hand, the ST had the advantage of a blank slate to work off of (plus a huge amount of EU source material to potentially draw from), yet they needlessly limited themselves to making a modern variation of the OT.

  5. The prequels have more creative planet, ship, and alien designs than the sequels.

  6. The PT doesn’t actively detract from my enjoyment of the OT. The ST does.

(Just to be clear, I know the prequels are bad. And I have very mixed opinions on the creative choices George made with them.)

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As bad as the prequels are, despite the overuse of CGI, and having a baroque aesthetic which contrasts with the utilitarian aesthetic of the OT, they still feel part of the SW universe.

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fmalover said:

As bad as the prequels are, despite the overuse of CGI, and having a baroque aesthetic which contrasts with the utilitarian aesthetic of the OT, they still feel part of the SW universe.

That seems to be a general consensus. As bad as the prequels were, they still feel like part of a cohesive narrative.

The sequels are disjointed with each other, much less the rest of the story.

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The worst aspect of the prequels wasn’t just the unnatural and unbelievable dialog and acting, or the fact that II and III were shot on Video instead of on film. Or the incredible bad cgi in Episode II. The total lack of verisimilitude and a used universe which the OT had in spades made everything look like a cheap 1990s computer game. There was also the moving away from established canon of the OT just because as the creator Lucas could retcon whatever he wanted. Even if 4 different special editions later the prequels and originals don’t inhabit the same mentality or continuity.

On the other hand the Disney movies are bad for lack of imagination and originality but you can have original bad like the prequels, or original bad like a sequel about Darth Maul which thankfully wasn’t made.

Safe filmaking is when you rely on callbacks and nostalgia that’s when you hire JJ Abrams. Lucas was right on the money for saying they made a film for the fans, but he could have worded it fanfilm or pastiche because that is all JJ does. The great remaker/remixer. Who saved Star Trek when it didn’t need to be saved, Saved MI when it didn’t need to be saved, and saved Star Wars when it didn’t need to be saved.

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Star Trek was a dead franchise after Enterprise, while Star Wars was in complete limbo after ROTS.

The prequels are offensively bad to me, while the sequels feel more comforting. Safe, sure. It doesn’t ruin the OT with spoilers, ugly visuals, and terrible direction. It’s disposable, rather than damaging. It’s just a disposable sequel that doesn’t inject stupid lore. The prequels ruin the OT. The ST doesn’t for me.

The sequel trilogy is like Dragon Ball GT - fun, but a bit forgettable and cringe at times. TLJ is the only remotely good movie in the series since Return of the Jedi. It’s the Omega Shenron arc of Star Wars.

Meh, there are only three worthwhile Star Wars movies. At the end of the day, nothing should have been made after 1983 in this godforsaken franchise.

Star Wars was a mistake. The prequels were the biggest mistake. I miss when people knew the prequels were shit and didn’t throw unwarranted praise on them.

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Filoni was actually able to make Anakin likable and relatable though. And he got me to believe Ben and Anakin were really good friends. I agree when people say the Clone Wars redeemed the prequels. At least in the aspects of Anakin being a teacher, a leader and a good friend. The way he relates to the Clone Troopers and makes friendships with them and leads them into battle is good storytelling. He isn’t a sullen creep and loser.

While i can’t picture Hayden Anakin being a teacher to Ahsoka and a positive role model i can believe Matt Lanter’s Anakin is.

A bit off topic but someone said maybe someday the sequels will have some material to fill in the bad parts of the sequels and i thought about Clone Wars doing so for the prequels.

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JadedSkywalker said:

The worst aspect of the prequels wasn’t just the unnatural and unbelievable dialog and acting, or the fact that II and III were shot on Video instead of on film. Or the incredible bad cgi in Episode II. The total lack of verisimilitude and a used universe which the OT had in spades made everything look like a cheap 1990s computer game. There was also the moving away from established canon of the OT just because as the creator Lucas could retcon whatever he wanted. Even if 4 different special editions later the prequels and originals don’t inhabit the same mentality or continuity.

On the other hand the Disney movies are bad for lack of imagination and originality but you can have original bad like the prequels, or original bad like a sequel about Darth Maul which thankfully wasn’t made.

Safe filmaking is when you rely on callbacks and nostalgia that’s when you hire JJ Abrams. Lucas was right on the money for saying they made a film for the fans, but he could have worded it fanfilm or pastiche because that is all JJ does. The great remaker/remixer. Who saved Star Trek when it didn’t need to be saved, Saved MI when it didn’t need to be saved, and saved Star Wars when it didn’t need to be saved.

Several characters from the OT return, as well as the Millennium Falcon, there’s X-wings and TIE Fighters, but these movies don’t feel like Star Wars.

By now it’s obvious that Disney was merely appealing to fan nostalgia.

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Clone Wars just made the prequels worse for me. Going from compelling Lantner Anakin to Hayden “Elliot Rodger in space” Anakin just kills II and III in my perspective.

TCW didn’t redeem the prequels, it just made them even more unwatchable.

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Star Wars was in complete limbo after ROTS.

Star Wars was fine after RotS. TCW was doing very well. New video games were in production. The franchise would have kept on going as it has, just without the added hype of new movies, which Star Wars doesn’t need to be relevant.

The prequels are offensively bad to me, while the sequels feel more comforting. Safe, sure. It doesn’t ruin the OT with spoilers, ugly visuals, and terrible direction. It’s disposable, rather than damaging. It’s just a disposable sequel that doesn’t inject stupid lore.

The ugly visuals and bad direction of the PT don’t affect the OT (unless you mean the Special Editions, but those are a whole different issue). The spoilers are a problem for newcomers who start with the prequels, I suppose, but I wouldn’t call that “ruining the OT.” You can argue that Anakin’s portrayal in the prequels damaged Vader and his redemption, and I’ll agree with you on that.

I would definitely say that the ST also injected stupid lore, though. They did their best to be safe and derivative, but in doing so, they forced the post-RotJ lore into a creative dead end where everything has to lead to the First Order and to Palpatine on Exegol. It’s very difficult to work around that and make sense of that with new extended material, which will be hopelessly constrained and contorted to fit with the ST from here onward. The ST is like a lore black hole that everything now has to accommodate, whether it makes sense or not. The OT and PT expanded the universe, while the ST contracted it.

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BedeHistory731 said:

The ST is still infinitely better than the PT to me 🤷‍♂️.

Yeah but that’s not really saying much is it haha

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I think the good far outweighs the bad, and there’s something worth watching in all the Star Wars movies. I prefer the sequels to the prequels, but like both. I once had a narrow view of what I considered Star Wars to be, but I’ve since broadened my opinions. None of them are perfect, including the Originals, far from it actually. I’ve yet to come across an idea that’s better than what we got. Some of my favorite characters, scenes, and musical pieces are now to be found in the sequels. They’re a rich addition to the saga. I’m sure we haven’t seen the end by far.

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I’ll always prefer and defend the Prequels to the Sequels. Growing up I loved both the Prequels and Originals equally. So in a way I have nostalgic feelings about both but it’s more complicated than that. I can see some flaws in the Prequels now but I can also point them out in the Originals. No Star Wars movie has ever been perfect and that includes Empire.

I really have no problem with the Prequels “ruining” mysteries in the Originals as to me personally they add to experience and the story is meant to be watched I-VI.

Yoda using a lightsaber is meant to echo his words of war not making one great. How does he know if he didn’t experience it?

You see Palpatine’s overconfidence on full display when he thinks he’s defeated Yoda in the Senate Chamber. This foreshadows his downfall.

“His fate will be the same as ours.” Welp! Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine all three did die on a Death Star.

Anakin and Luke learn the same lessons in their first and second film but ultimately make a different choice when it comes to their third film. However the beautiful thing about Return of the Jedi is that it’s the coming together of both their choices and destinies to destroy the Sith and Palpatine. So Anakin has another chance to get it right.

You don’t really get these and other experiences if you watch them IV-VI, I-III. You may get the shock value of the reveals in Empire but there’s more to Star Wars than that. It has grown and evolved into something bigger than these story points.

Another reason though it’s more complicated is because I was genuinely really invested in the Sequels. The first year or two for the most part I really loved The Force Awakens and loved Rey wholeheartedly. I truly related to her as our life experiences are very similar to each other. I didn’t think it would age as well as VIII and IX when they came out but I accepted its lack of original vision as I felt assured that’s what was coming next. I felt assured and trust that George’s story was still being used as Kathleen Kennedy said they only made a few departures. It made sense. The Last Jedi came and I felt a numbness and bad feeling that something was wrong. I didn’t hate the film but I didn’t love it either. It was vastly different from what I was hoping as I was thinking Rey would be a Skywalker in some way. Afterall we’re following the Skywalker family saga and George asked J.J. once about Darth Vader’s grandchildren. As time went along I was somewhere between accepting this isn’t George’s story and denial. Bob Iger’s book came and I felt hurt. Finally The Rise of Skywalker came and the moment we see Rey’s parents leaving her on Jakku I was finding peace. I told myself this isn’t George’s story and that’s okay. It was then revealed she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter and my heart sank. Leaving the film I had a fun time despite all of the nostalgia and feeling that something was off with Rey.

In the end and two years onwards I really don’t think I hate the Sequels. I don’t love them either. They’re something that gave me a roller coaster of emotions and some really fun experiences. I look back to that moment in The Rise of Skywalker when we see Rey’s parents and think to myself there was a moment of acceptance of this trilogy for what it is and that’s not George’s story but it’s okay. It ultimately passed the moment they made her related to Palpatine. It’s sickening having her related to a toxic male with no redeeming qualities and who George himself referred to as the devil. It’s sickening seeing how clearly it opened up all of the parallels with the Skywalker family and even Obi-Wan and knowing they meant absolutely nothing. They were just put there for nostalgia. She may declare she’s a Skywalker but it fails to me because of who she really is and the contextual issues it creates. It doesn’t feel like a happily ever after fairy tale like Return of the Jedi but real world sensibilities being injected into Star Wars. That’s ultimately the biggest problem with this trilogy. It’s not growing, expanding, or progressing the story forward but telling us what the writers see Star Wars as and to them it will always be the first three films. It is its detriment as it restrains what Star Wars can be and how so much has come out since then that has expanded the universe.

I’ve made my peace with The Last Jedi most. I’m grateful that Rian at least acknowledged and incorporated the Prequels into his narrative as they’re part of the fabric of Star Wars. I may not always agree with his interpretation of what Star Wars is but I can at least tell he seems to like it all and wanted to expand the story.

In the end though Ahmed Best said it best. He said that Star Wars isn’t something we believe in anymore and that it’s falling more into the Han Solo side of the story instead of Luke Skywalker. I couldn’t agree more.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

I’ll always prefer and defend the Prequels to the Sequels. Growing up I loved both the Prequels and Originals equally.

I grew up liking the OT and disliking the PT.

So in a way I have nostalgic feelings about both but it’s more complicated than that. I can see some flaws in the Prequels now but I can also point them out in the Originals. No Star Wars movie has ever been perfect and that includes Empire.

Fair, but the prequels always had more flaws to me.

I really have no problem with the Prequels “ruining” mysteries in the Originals as to me personally they add to experience and the story is meant to be watched I-VI.

I have problems. It detracts from the experience to know that Vader used to be Hayden Anakin. It detracts to know who Yoda was. It detracts to have all the magic of the PT spoiled.

Yoda using a lightsaber is meant to echo his words of war not making one great. How does he know if he didn’t experience it?

I beg to differ. I prefer a Yoda who left the order because of these issues. He was a man who preferred peace, leaving out of objection to war.

You see Palpatine’s overconfidence on full display when he thinks he’s defeated Yoda in the Senate Chamber. This foreshadows his downfall.

Meh. He still won pretty handily and I don’t think the foreshadowing adds much of anything.

“His fate will be the same as ours.” Welp! Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine all three did die on a Death Star.

That’s just forced.

Anakin and Luke learn the same lessons in their first and second film but ultimately make a different choice when it comes to their third film. However the beautiful thing about Return of the Jedi is that it’s the coming together of both their choices and destinies to destroy the Sith and Palpatine. So Anakin has another chance to get it right.

I guess, but Anakin is beyond redemption the minute the youngling-slayer scene came up. He was an idiot who flipped heel within minutes.

You don’t really get these and other experiences if you watch them IV-VI, I-III. You may get the shock value of the reveals in Empire but there’s more to Star Wars than that. It has grown and evolved into something bigger than these story points.

Not really. IV-VI, VIII is the only viewing order you need. Maybe throw in Clone Wars, ignore the terrible movies in front and behind it that ruin Clone Wars’ characterizations.

The Last Jedi came and I felt a numbness and bad feeling that something was wrong. I didn’t hate the film but I didn’t love it either. It was vastly different from what I was hoping as i was thinking Rey would be a Skywalker in some way. Afterall we’re following the Skywalker family saga and George asked J.J. once about Darth Vader’s grandchildren. As time went along I was somewhere between accepting this isn’t George’s story and denial. Bob Iger’s book came and I felt hurt.

I was glad and overjoyed that it wasn’t George’s story anymore. My joy of the sequels comes from George not being involved. It’s like when TNG and the TOS movies got rid of Gene Roddenberry. He was an anchor dragging it down. Filoni is the Rick Berman taking over, minus the “allegations” against Berman.

Finally The Rise of Skywalker came and the moment we see Rey’s parents leaving her on Jakku I was finding peace. I told myself this isn’t George’s story and that’s okay. It was then revealed she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter and my heart sank.

Meh, Rey Palpatine is a fun twist that explores a bit of the nature/nurture thing. Overcoming one’s nature is a theme of the series, be it Luke asserting himself in ROTJ or Anakin’s character expiration in TCW.

It ultimately passed the moment they made her related to Palpatine. It’s sickening having her related to a toxic male with no redeeming qualities and who George himself referred to as the devil. It’s sickening seeing how clearly it opened up all of the parallels with the Skywalker family and even Obi-Wan and knowing they meant absolutely nothing.

So just because she’s a Palpatine, she should be denied all of those parallels? That seems too prejudicial. We should be able to overcome our “nature” and arrive to a point of heroicism. I think it’s cruel to deny the character that and call it “sickening.”

They were just put there for nostalgia. She may declare she’s a Skywalker but it fails to me because of who she really is and the contextual issues it creates. It doesn’t feel like a happily ever after fairy tale like Return of the Jedi but real world sensibilities being injected into Star Wars.

Overcoming one’s nature and rejecting your negative heritage is a fair tale/happily ever after to me.

That’s ultimately the biggest problem with this trilogy. It’s not growing, expanding, or progressing the story forward but telling us what the writers see Star Wars as and to them it will always be the first three films.

…and that’s the way it should be. Right down to retconning big chunks of bad prequel lord away.

I’ve made my peace with The Last Jedi most. I’m grateful that Rian at least acknowledged and incorporated the Prequels into his narrative as they’re part of the fabric of Star Wars.

I’d agree, but I would have appreciated a retcon for Midichlorians.

In the end though Ahmed Best said it best. He said that Star Wars isn’t something we believe in anymore and that it’s falling more into the Han Solo side of the story instead of Luke Skywalker. I couldn’t agree more.

Nah. Many of us still believe in the OT and want good things for the franchise. The ST was better than what we got with the PT (my opinion) and the lore is trending in an OK direction. It’s as healthy as it was in the PT era, with writers exploring different directions.

If anything, Star Wars is like Sonic. The OT is the Genesis/Mega Drive games, while the PT is the Adventure/Heroes series, and the ST is Generations or Mania. Generations/Mania have hope for a modernized version of the classic style, (which is well done for SW and Sonic, I’d argue). This would mean that The Force Unleashed is ‘06, but TFU is a terrible addition to canon.

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As someone who was perused this site before the Sequels, it is never ceases to surprise me how much opinions on the Prequels have changed. I know a big part of it has to do with the prequel kids growing up, but I also think a lot of people have sort of gotten used to them overtime. I really think this change happened in the year preceding and following TFA’s release, so like 2013-2016.

I know it is common to say this same change of opinion will happen with the ST eventually, but I’m curious to see if that ends up really happening.

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BedeHistory731 said:

It ultimately passed the moment they made her related to Palpatine. It’s sickening having her related to a toxic male with no redeeming qualities and who George himself referred to as the devil. It’s sickening seeing how clearly it opened up all of the parallels with the Skywalker family and even Obi-Wan and knowing they meant absolutely nothing.

So just because she’s a Palpatine, she should be denied all of those parallels? That seems too prejudicial. We should be able to overcome our “nature” and arrive to a point of heroicism. I think it’s cruel to deny the character that and call it “sickening.”

They were just put there for nostalgia. She may declare she’s a Skywalker but it fails to me because of who she really is and the contextual issues it creates. It doesn’t feel like a happily ever after fairy tale like Return of the Jedi but real world sensibilities being injected into Star Wars.

Overcoming one’s nature and rejecting your negative heritage is a fair tale/happily ever after to me.

That’s ultimately the biggest problem with this trilogy. It’s not growing, expanding, or progressing the story forward but telling us what the writers see Star Wars as and to them it will always be the first three films.

…and that’s the way it should be. Right down to retconning big chunks of bad prequel lord away.

I’ve made my peace with The Last Jedi most. I’m grateful that Rian at least acknowledged and incorporated the Prequels into his narrative as they’re part of the fabric of Star Wars.

I’d agree, but I would have appreciated a retcon for Midichlorians.

In the end though Ahmed Best said it best. He said that Star Wars isn’t something we believe in anymore and that it’s falling more into the Han Solo side of the story instead of Luke Skywalker. I couldn’t agree more.

Nah. Many of us still believe in the OT and want good things for the franchise. The ST was better than what we got with the PT (my opinion) and the lore is trending in an OK direction. It’s as healthy as it was in the PT era, with writers exploring different directions.

If anything, Star Wars is like Sonic. The OT is the Genesis/Mega Drive games, while the PT is the Adventure/Heroes series, and the ST is Generations or Mania. Generations/Mania have hope for a modernized version of the classic style, (which is well done for SW and Sonic, I’d argue). This would mean that The Force Unleashed is ‘06, but TFU is a terrible addition to canon.

It’s not really prejudice, it’s more accepting what is the established rules and trajectory of the story and that the parallels that came before it are part of this. If they gave Rey her own sense of self and own motivations then it could’ve worked much better I think. As it stands now they gave her parallels because of nostalgia and nothing more. I would’ve been accepting of Rey Skywalker if she remained Random because the argument of her being a “No One” could be paired with the idea she found identity in the generation of Skywalkers before her and their shared experiences as she too had humble origins. Despite how meta it is I find it kind of works since it didn’t tip over to mixing up with established characters but her own character, and the character happens to parallel the family who came before her.

I don’t think so because that’s putting your own sensibilities into the story and not respecting what came before. Whether one likes or doesn’t like the Prequels should remain irrelevant. It’s about respecting all of Star Wars and not just picking and choosing the pieces of the story that best suit the storyteller. It’s about accepting the creator (George) had a story and following the rules he created for his universe. The Clone Wars is the perfect example of respecting what he created as it expands the scope and possibilities of what Star Wars can be. The Prequels for that matter are the other side of the story when it comes to the Original Trilogy. They’re one of the same. They’re just different from each other. George didn’t want Rebels versus Empire 2.0. He wanted to create something fresh and new. Yet at the same time it respects the story he established before and adds new layers to it. It’s not always smooth and perfect but it’s his story.

I don’t find it healthy to be retrained to the Original Trilogy for source material. There’s a whole other trilogy and countless books to gather from. Star Wars needs to respect what came before and not cherry pick when it comes to what George created just because someone may not like parts of the story.

At the end of the day it’s not George’s story anymore but I do feel there should be a responsibility to respect what came from him as without him we wouldn’t be here right now. It may not be smooth or perfect but the effort is what counts.

Star Wars was a classical story but is now like many works wearying towards something that is similar to post modernism. I don’t necessarily find this a good thing as far as Star Wars is concerned. To me it always had its unique place in the cultural threshold. It’s subjective though like all of art.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

It’s not really prejudice, it’s more accepting what is the established rules and trajectory of the story and that the parallels that came before it are part of this. If they gave Rey her own sense of self and own motivations then it could’ve worked much better I think. As it stands now they gave her parallels because of nostalgia and nothing more. I would’ve been accepting of Rey Skywalker if she remained Random because the argument of her being a “No One” could be paired with the idea she found identity in the generation of Skywalkers before her and their shared experiences as she too had humble origins. Despite how meta it is I find it kind of works since it didn’t tip over to mixing up with established characters but her own character who happens to parallel the family who came before her.

It sounds like prejudice to say that “a Palpatine can rise above their background and become a hero.” Rejecting one’s heritage to adopt something new is a welcome addition rather than relying on pre-destination as the only determinant of one’s worth. Sometimes it’s worth it to break the rules for something more compelling. I’d have preferred “Rey nobody,” but “Rey Palpatine” represents one’s rejection of negative heritage. Breaking the cycle of abuse and horror in one’s family is a positive piece of symbolism, a welcome addition to the canon. As somebody who knows people that have had difficulty with their families, the theme of ascending above an awful family resonated with me.

It’s about respecting all of Star Wars and not just picking and choosing the pieces of the story that best suit the storyteller. It’s about accepting the creator (George) had a story and following the rules he created for his universe.

That’s literally been the state of the franchise since the '90s. Picking and choosing is an important part of enjoying any franchise, even within official media (see the state of any fandom today).

But let’s say we have to limit ourselves to the existing rules of “George’s universe.” The idea of ascending above one’s heritage is Luke avoiding the fate of his father, just like Rey escaped the legacy of the Palpatines to join the family of her mentors. It fits. Not great, but it fits the “rules for George’s universe.”

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I’m not saying a Palpatine can’t. I’m just saying within the framework of established rules that it comes off as a lack of care was given to what came before it. Palpatine never had these parallels in the Prequels or Originals. However if they established right away that Rey was her own character with her own sense of self with some parallels to Palpatine then it could’ve worked much better. Like say how Anakin and Leia and Padme and Luke are one of the same. They share many of the same personality traits and qualities but they also have very clear motivations and sense of self. They’re paralleled and connected but it doesn’t stop them from being their own characters. They remain their own people. The same could be said if they showed Rey as a Palpatine from the very beginning and then you find she rejects it all in favour of a different path than that of the Dark Side. She becomes just Rey.

If you don’t have rules within your narrative and story then you create a lack of cohesiveness and consistency throughout the story. The story will eventually run its course and will have nowhere else to go. It’s just as important to respect what came before as it is about expanding upon the story.

That’s the key though as within the fandom it’s okay to pick and choose. There’s no wrong way to enjoy Star Wars from a fan’s prospective. However the fandom and storyteller are separate entities. As storytellers you don’t fall prey to what the audience wants you to make. However it’s just as important to follow the rules of the universe and going from there. It’s about finding a natural progression and middle ground that doesn’t contradict what came before it.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

I’m not saying a Palpatine can’t. I’m just saying within the framework of established rules that it comes off as a lack of care was given to what came before it. Palpatine never had these parallels in the Prequels or Originals. However if they established right away that Rey was her own character with her own sense of self with some parallels to Palpatine then it could’ve worked much better.

Yeah, that does make sense to some extent.

Like say how Anakin and Leia and Padme and Luke are one of the same. They share many of the same personality traits and qualities but they also have very clear motivations and sense of self. They’re paralleled and connected but it doesn’t stop them from being their own characters. They remain their own people. The same could be said if they showed Rey as a Palpatine from the very beginning and then you find she rejects it all in favour of a different path than that of the Dark Side. She becomes just Rey.

If you don’t have rules within your narrative and story then you create a lack of cohesiveness and consistency throughout the story. The story will eventually run its course and will have nowhere else to go. It’s just as important to respect what came before as it is about expanding upon the story.

“It’s like poetry, it rhymes” became a meme for a reason. What the parallels sounds like, to me, is a way to just make a repetitive story. Yeah, Rebels vs. Empire MKII is also repetitive, but the protagonist’s journey is something new. “Respecting” the past just means “slavishly following the standard beats of the protagonist’s journey” in this sense. I get that it may not be cohesive, but it’s different and a fun spin that fits within the franchise’s themes of found family and rising above one’s family flaws.

That’s the key though as within the fandom it’s okay to pick and choose. There’s no wrong way to enjoy Star Wars from a fan’s prospective. However the fandom and storyteller are separate entities… However it’s just as important to follow the rules of the universe and go from there. It’s about finding a natural progression and middle ground that doesn’t contradict what came before it.

I’d argue that what happened does follow the rules of the universe, but also disregards the pattern found within the PT (and retroactively applied to the OT). It builds upon it and sends the story in a new direction, with more room to expand post-TROS and growth through the other ventures (e.g., Mandalorian, Visions, Book of Boba Fett, etc.

As storytellers you don’t fall prey to what the audience wants you to make.

There has to be a balance. You go too far into one direction, you get George’s sequel trilogy/BBC’s Sherlock/Supernatural (i.e., disregarding the fans). You go too far in the other, you get two hours of the Vader hallway scene (i.e., giving in 100% to fan service).

I think the sequels fit the balance well enough. It could’ve been much much better, but it could’ve been a lot, a lot worse. Still, I’m tempted to disregard everything after 1983 as bonus fluff. Fine, but ultimately inconsequential and irrelevant to the movies. TCW is nice and all, but it doesn’t match the “OT and OT alone” method to me.