I was watching the featurette at the beginning of the Phantom Menace Letterbox VHS and i literally laughed out loud when Rick McCallum said its so dense.
Don’t get me wrong i’ve mostly been enjoying my tapes of the prequels warts and all but damn the people interviewed in this tape at ILM are laying it on thick.
I hate how the Jedi are portrayed in the prequels. You get from Lucas in interviews and in audio commentary they are supposed to be the good guys, and really pure because they reject attachments and are selfless.
In the movies they come off as arrogant, insular and corrupt. Which is poor writing and directing, or he thinks these are good qualities.
I’d also add that the way the Jedi never looked into the whole “Clone army” thing enough AND just took over and went with it shows them to also be completely naive and lacking any kind of simple awareness. There’s not alot of cause to feel sad for what happens to them in ROTS. They were too incompetent to be the authority of the entire Galaxy.
It comes off like it was necessary for them to be dethroned and I’m sure that’s not want Lucas initially intended. 🤷♂️
It should probably be a case of ‘the road to hell is paved with good intentions’ but instead it comes off as ‘dumb people are too dumb to do anything right’. Clearly the rise of the Empire wasn’t supposed to be the result of arrogance and hubris alone, but everything seems to point to that; especially in all the spin-off material. The clone army is baffling enough but we’re never shown things like an investigation into where Darth Maul came from. Diminished force powers don’t account for the lack of basic thinking.
Lucas didn’t even intentionally characterize them as arrogant. They’re unprepared, complacent at worst.
He needed more script doctors.
Star Wars, Paleontology, Superhero, Godzilla fan. Darth Vader stan. 22. ADHD. College Student majoring in English Education.
My Star Wars Fan-Edits
It’s a recurring, fatal flaw throughout the trilogy. It’s clear what Lucas is intending to do, but he botches it so badly in the details that everyone looks stupid or accidentially terrible in every situation.
Diminished force powers don’t account for the lack of basic thinking.
Somewhat of an aside, but this is another element in the prequels I really wish was shown rather than told to us. And it could’ve been easily done, just by making the Jedi less powerful than Luke and Yoda were in the OT, with Anakin as an outlier. Instead Lucas uses Bizarro logic.
“The simultaneous existence of opposite virtues in the soul — like pincers to catch hold of God.”
― Simone Weil
“Reality is the original Rorschach.”
― Malaclypse the Younger
Yoda says the dark side clouds everything, that is supposed to excuse their stupidity. Episode III is almost like Dark Helmet said about good being dumb.
I’ve gone on rants on this site about some flaws of ROTS, but every time I rewatch it, I get swept up in emotion and really enjoy it. Not OT tier, but I genuinely think it’s well-constructed in some ways. The entire OT is a 10/10, ROTS is like a 7.
Esp Anakin’s turn. Like when you really think about it, it doesn’t make a lot of logical sense, and I’ve ranted about that on here before, but every time I watch it, with the exception of some iffy parts, it kinda works, bc maybe that’s the point. He was a very power hungry, passionate, fiery person. He was scared shitless, desperate, and made some really bad mistakes, burned within his own flame, and then became the cold Vader we see in the OT bc he lost everything, while still burning deep within. There are ways it could be done better (I still maintain that craving immortality should’ve been part of it, and it should’ve been spread over 2 movies instead of 1), but to a degree, elements of it still work. I think it’s bc I can be a really emotional person at times, I’ve done some really dumb stuff when it comes to women (tho obvs nowhere near that degree) that when I snap out of it I go, “Wow, really? That was really pathetic and stupid”, so I guess I kinda get it? Especially if it was a hypothetical wife of 3 years dying and I had gone through as much loss as him? Idk.
Star Wars, Paleontology, Superhero, Godzilla fan. Darth Vader stan. 22. ADHD. College Student majoring in English Education.
My Star Wars Fan-Edits
I’ve gone on rants on this site about some flaws of ROTS, but every time I rewatch it, I get swept up in emotion and really enjoy it.
Man, I wish I had the same reaction. After I saw so many positive reactions to ROTS I wanted to give the movie another chance. But when I tried rewatching it like around 2 years ago, it just came off as hopelessly flawed. There were glimpses of chemistry between Anakin and Obi-Wan in the opening space battle scenes, but it was just way too little and way too late. The middle segment of the movie is a CGI circus featuring a cartoon cyborg riding a unicycle while a cartoon lizard chases him.
Anakin’s turn seemed paradoxically both too sudden and also predictable, because his entire arc was mostly incoherent and spastic. He already slaughtered an entire village in the previous movie, then reverted back to “good guy hero” mode, then immediately agreed to mass-murder children like an hour after we saw him having a fun adventure with Obi-Wan. The Order 66 scenes have some dramatic weight, but just barely. The ending lightsaber duel is mostly meaningless spectacle until the very last scene, when Ewan McGregor breaks down in tears, which I admit does manage to bring out a bit of emotion in me… but again, it’s just way too little and way too late.
I’ve tried to enjoy this movie, and I’ve always been jealous of those who do, because I’ve always wanted an Anakin Skywalker movie I could enjoy. On paper, it’s such a compelling story. The real “Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker” is that his story was never properly told.
I was watching a video asking who would win in a rematch Yoda or Palpatine and it reminded me of how I never wanted either of them to ever have a lightsaber. Shouldn’t they be like super powerful wizards who don’t need anything but their mind to be deadly or just a motion of their hand to move an object, or to shoot lightning.
Definitely. But I’d go further. In the Making of ROTJ, Lucas says that Yoda is a teacher, and that is what the moniker ‘Jedi Master’ implies, as opposed to ‘Jedi Knight’. The terms do not denote power level, but rather specialization. Yoda would never intentionally engage an enemy in battle, because his role is purely to instruct. I imagine Yoda and most Jedi practitioners as pacifists, using the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.
Similarly, Palpatine’s role is as a manipulator, subtly influencing people’s minds and actions to suit his ends. Shooting lightning at a Jedi opponent is clearly a last resort, used after every other puppet and mental trick has been exhausted.
Who would win in a fight? Yoda. We already saw that play out across the battlefield of the Original Trilogy, with Yoda and the Emperor using their greatest weapons (Luke and Vader, respectively) and their preferred techniques (teaching and manipulation, respectively). Stripping away their weapons and comparing their base power levels strips the characters of everything that makes them interesting.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Man, I wish I had the same reaction. After I saw so many positive reactions to ROTS I wanted to give the movie another chance. But when I tried rewatching it like around 2 years ago, it just came off as hopelessly flawed.
I feel that man, with other stuff. I want to love the Obi-Wan show. It’s Obi-Wan and Darth Vader, I should like it. But they didn’t do them justice, and it’s hard, but eventually you have to come to terms with your own feelings, and you have.
I’m happy to admit that most of my enjoyment for ROTS is that, and nostalgia, it was my fav as a kid. I think it’s quality wise better then the other two Prequels, but it’s not a masterpiece like the OT (even ROTJ, fight me). I had my denial period, but it’s true, at least through the standard by which I judge media. It’s the difference between analyzing quality and emotional connection (tho the two coincide to a degree, but not wholly).
There were glimpses of chemistry between Anakin and Obi-Wan in the opening space battle scenes, but it was just way too little and way too late.
When watching the entire trilogy as a whole, I agree. When watching it in isolation, it’s fun, and I can ignore how the previous two failed them.
The middle segment of the movie is a CGI circus featuring a cartoon cyborg riding a unicycle while a cartoon lizard chases him.
I enjoy that part, and Grievous as a whole, ironically. It’s hilariously over the top. He’s my favorite of the Prequel villains (besides good ole Sheev) because he’s a meme. Even mundane lines like “Just as Count Dooku predicted” are a stitch. To the point where I prefer him over 2003 CW Grievous, who to me, is just a faster Vader. I’m a Darth Vader stan, I want my man to be unique. Nobody steals his thunder. I liked the approach Lucas was going for, making all 3 Prequel villains their own, but having one tie in to Vader (even if superficial) as foreshadowing. Neat idea.
Even though, like everything in the Prequels, Lucas needed that filter he had during the OT era (so it’s earnest, not corny), to a degree, Grievous fits with that moustache twirling villain vibe we see sometimes in the OT with Tarkin, Jabba, and even the Emperor (Lucas even said when making Grievous, to avoid making him too similar to Vader and the other two, wanted to make him more like the Emperor). When you really think about it, Vader is really the only OT villain with a lot of depth, but it works, that’s not a criticism. You can only shove so much in a script. And that’s one of the Prequels failings, they try to do too much. Too many protagonists, too many villains, too many plots. You can’t enjoy Dooku like you can Tarkin because it tries to develop him but doesn’t have time to do so in this bloated screenplay. He’s at his best when he gets to be just Dracula, and even then, he doesn’t get to do it too much. So that’s why Grievous, who’s literally just Dr. Evil and doesn’t try to be more, is the most enjoyable to me.
Anakin’s turn seemed paradoxically both too sudden and also predictable, because his entire arc was mostly incoherent and spastic. He already slaughtered an entire village in the previous movie, then reverted back to “good guy hero” mode, then immediately agreed to mass-murder children like an hour after we saw him having a fun adventure with Obi-Wan.
Once again, I agree with a lot of this in the logical part of my brain. The Anakin content in TPM and AOTC should’ve been combined, and his arc in ROTS should’ve been in two movies. A slow decent into the cold domineering Darth Vader we know and love from the OT, an emphasis on that addiction to power, the desire to cheat death to never feel pain of loss (and I’d also add not ever die), only to become Death’s Dragon, the Grim Reaper. A monster.
I see where Lucas was going, with the hot and cold thing. I’ve been there, even if nowhere near that extreme. Is it too extreme given the movie’s tight time frame? Yeah. But in social situations, where I’m scared, I can often be like that. I go from being confident and believing to being cold because I’m insecure and don’t want to be hurt. Though it’s worth mentioning, I’m a 21 y/o with ADHD (I went undiagnosed until April; I am on meds now). And those are situations with crushes or even sometimes platonic friends. What if it was a hypothetical wife about to die, when you’ve already watched your mother die in front of you, and blamed yourself?
The scenes work for me when I isolate them in my brain (even when watching the movie) to allow myself to feel the emotional effect. William’s score and Christensen’s acting work really well to convey that emotional distress, conflict and the cold, even if he sometimes got stuck with some bum material. That pathos connects with me on an deeply emotional level.
Star Wars, Paleontology, Superhero, Godzilla fan. Darth Vader stan. 22. ADHD. College Student majoring in English Education.
My Star Wars Fan-Edits
I think Lucas really wanted to push the limits of cgi and digital cinema. I’m still of the opinion II and III should have been shot on film and used more reals sets and practical effects and locations than he did. I know there was a mix of them but it’s not clear when you watch the movies, they all look video gamey for some reason. Especially in Episode II and on Geonosis it’s almost like an animated movie so much cgi. The way the Clone troopers are rendered, the Walkers, the enemy robots nothing feels real. AT least the scenes change at a rapid pace, so you don’t linger on the renders too long to lose willful sense of disbelief completely, but there is zero verisimilitude or any used universe like the OT.
Other than Revenge what is Palpatine’s endgame, Ian is brilliant but the story makes no sense if you bother to ask questions. What was the trade federation boycott of Naboo about, Tariffs? What in the force does Sidious need taxes for. Why does he want to ruin the Naboo. And that is just in the first episode. In II he makes the Jedi the Generals of his army to then in III just murder them all because he sets Anakin on a path to betray them.
Other than Revenge what is Palpatine’s endgame, Ian is brilliant but the story makes no sense if you bother to ask questions. What was the trade federation boycott of Naboo about, Tariffs? What in the force does Sidious need taxes for. Why does he want to ruin the Naboo. And that is just in the first episode. In II he makes the Jedi the Generals of his army to then in III just murder them all because he sets Anakin on a path to betray them.
The writing in the Prequels forces the audience to fill in lots of gaps, especially in Phantom Menace, because the script is loaded with hand-waviness. I think AOTC and ROTS are a bit more straightforward: Palpatine’s goal is to kill all Jedi and become an absolute monarch. He does this by forcing the Republic into a civil war and making them use an army he created in advance. He antagonizes the Jedi by abusing his emergency powers, then when some Jedi representatives confront him, he kills them and accuses the Jedi of insurrection. Then he presses the “off” button on the Separatist army (???), and sends Anakin to kill their leaders. Then he builds a Death Star over the next 20 years and then fires the Senate. Finally, after all that, he finally gets to relax and enjoy his absolute unlimited power… for about a few days or so, before the Death Star explodes.
I kind of feel bad for Palpatine now… like, he did all that work and he put up with those stupid Nemoidians and the stupid Senate and their boring meetings for 20 years and then some random whiny kid blew up his cosmic fear machine.
I get that part about Sidious being behind both sides of the conflict so he could declare himself absolute ruler. Why did Jar Jar give him emergency powers again? Also, Padme was maneuvered into making him Chancellor in the first place. When Bail Antilles probably would have won the election. Since Palpatine is the one who stirred up lies that Valorum was corrupt, but you can’t argue that he wasn’t ineffective as a chancellor. He was a friend to the JEDI, I guess that made it doubly useful to ruin him.
I assume Mas Amedda was working for him the whole time as well reporting on Valorum to Sidious.
Also, Padme isn’t weak minded, so she was manipulated without use of the force, but Jar Jar is weak minded so who knows.
I get that part about Sidious being behind both sides of the conflict so he could declare himself absolute ruler. Why did Jar Jar give him emergency powers again? Also, Padme was maneuvered into making him Chancellor in the first place. When Bail Antilles probably would have won the election. Since Palpatine is the one who stirred up lies that Valorum was corrupt, but you can’t argue that he wasn’t ineffective as a chancellor. He was a friend to the JEDI, I guess that made it doubly useful to ruin him.
Well, that’s what I’m saying, the Prequel scripts have very little “connective tissue”. They convey the bare facts relevant to the plot and that’s it. For example, in Phantom Menace, Palpatine uses his alter-ego to manipulate the Trade Federation into invading a planet, causing the Senate to lose faith in the current Chancellor and replace him with Palpatine. Those are the bare facts, but the connective tissue just isn’t there.
Like for example, I have no clue why the Trade Federation even agreed to invade Naboo. We can assume their goal is to get lower taxes, but there’s no connective tissue in the script that explains why they believe invading Naboo will result in lower taxes. So we have to mentally stitch the script together and assume some elaborate backstory between Sidious and the Nemoidians that explains why they even listen to him and why they believe he can get them lower taxes and why they believe that blockading and then invading some random planet will lead to lower taxes eventually. Lucas just didn’t do the work to thread these plot elements together in a clear, coherent narrative.
A problem I have with the prequel is the villains are more compelling and interesting than the heroes. There is no clear protagonist, despite us constantly being told it’s supposed to be Anakin. This was a mistake, the Jedi are written as aloof and without emotion and Anakin is written as the opposite as very open with them and un-jedi like outbursts, sort of Emo. The dialog is stilted and stiff and nobody talks naturally. Everyone is directed in a listless manner and is completely asleep delivering their lines except Ian in Episode III, in Episode II even he was boring in his delivery.
I really wish Lucas hadn’t filmed them against green screen as separate elements you need chemistry between actors and for them to be comfortable in what they are doing.
Why were the actors in the original able to convincingly act to puppets and bluescreen, why was the dialog in most places much more natural. What happened. Lucas can’t have slipped that much in 16 years between Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace. Some essential thing was missing and I can’t quite quantify what.
A problem I have with the prequel is the villains are more compelling and interesting than the heroes. There is no clear protagonist, despite us constantly being told it’s supposed to be Anakin. This was a mistake, the Jedi are written as aloof and without emotion and Anakin is written as the opposite as very open with them and un-jedi like outbursts, sort of Emo. The dialog is stilted and stiff and nobody talks naturally. Everyone is directed in a listless manner and is completely asleep delivering their lines except Ian in Episode III, in Episode II even he was boring in his delivery.
I really wish Lucas hadn’t filmed them against green screen as separate elements you need chemistry between actors and for them to be comfortable in what they are doing.
Why were the actors in the original able to convincingly act to puppets and bluescreen, why was the dialog in most places much more natural. What happened. Lucas can’t have slipped that much in 16 years between Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace. Some essential thing was missing and I can’t quite quantify what.
Lucas was much more interested in the possibilities that CGI offered him to realize his vision than the acting. The guy is, quite frankly, not all there. The SFX tech of 1982 was perfectly capable of creating anything he needed. The Battle of Endor is still the best space battle we have ever seen in Star Wars. Mostly CGI was used to make things “more dense” - which was not to the benefit of the PT.
He had to be convinced to get acting coaches for Portman and Christiansen in ROTS.
“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord
Why were the actors in the original able to convincingly act to puppets and bluescreen, why was the dialog in most places much more natural. What happened. Lucas can’t have slipped that much in 16 years between Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace. Some essential thing was missing and I can’t quite quantify what.
The “Secret History of Star Wars” is mostly about trying to answer this question. It’s an interesting read if you have the time. Basically, the conclusion is that Lucas never slipped. He was always this way, even back in the 1970s. But the difference is that when making the OT, Lucas had much less control and was beset with problems and limitations. This had the effect of smoothing over many of Lucas’ weaknesses. The dialogue was often rewritten or cleaned up by Lucas’ friends, there was more push back about things since Lucas had not yet ascended to the status of demi-God at that point. An entire movie (Empire Strikes Back) was directed by Kershner, often without any oversight from Lucas, etc.
Rewatching the OT with a friend this weekend to show him the theatrical cuts. Today was A New Hope. And it shed further light on the why of the prequels bad structure.
Anakin’s mother’s death parallels Luke’s aunt and uncle, the difference being that it inspires Luke to be a hero, and Anakin to become power hungry. But for Anakin, it doesn’t happen until the second movie. Lucas tried to justify Anakin being 9 in the last one by saying “well his bond with his mom is more emotional”, but all he does is waste a movie, as he’s an entirely static character. ANH proves that the emotion still hits with barely any screentime, as anyone can relate to what it may feel like to lose a parent. Shmi’s death should’ve been in the first one, with Anakin being 19 in TPM. It makes him want to become a Jedi, because he seeks power. And over the next two films, we see him slowly descend from Jedi hero into the cold ruthless Darth Vader we love from the OT when the power of the dark side is more appealing to him, especially the promise for the secret of eternal life.
Basically, it takes two movies for Anakin to get where Luke is at the end of ANH, and that is heavily problematic to the structure of the trilogy. I enjoy ROTS, but there was just too much material crammed in as Lucas basically procrastinated the most important parts of the main character’s journey.
Star Wars, Paleontology, Superhero, Godzilla fan. Darth Vader stan. 22. ADHD. College Student majoring in English Education.
My Star Wars Fan-Edits
Generally I would say they’ve aged fairly well in my mind, especially compared to the sequel trilogy. I enjoyed them a lot as kid, but grew to have the “prequels are hot garbage” opinion as I grew up. Now, though, after many of the Disney projects have been so disappointing I’ve come to appreciate them again. The CGI is kinda abhorrent and inexcusable. The bad dialogue honestly fits in with much of the terrible dialogue of the original trilogy (esp episode 6). Way too much screen time is spent exploring the politics of the galactic republic v. the trade federation etc. etc. With a proper edit, they make for solid, fun movies that I would happily watch with my kids alongside the originals.
I just watched the “Neon Noir” Fanedit recently and what that abbreviated version of the prequels highlighted for me was that the Jedi were way too focused on playing politics and and getting an army together, that Anakin was left unchecked. They weren’t focusing on their own. It was a neat perspective I hadn’t really gotten before.
Basically, it takes two movies for Anakin to get where Luke is at the end of ANH, and that is heavily problematic to the structure of the trilogy. I enjoy ROTS, but there was just too much material crammed in as Lucas basically procrastinated the most important parts of the main character’s journey.
That hits the nail on the head. Revenge of the Sith had to cram in every last plot point to bridge the gap between the prequels and originals. Those elements being the victims of “procrastination” in the films is probably the best I’ve heard it described.
Might be a little bit of a hot take, but the youngling scene is only bad because of how abrupt it is. It’s not a new low for Vader when you really put it in perspective.
Darth Vader, even in the OT in isolation, has the blood of thousands on his hands. Rebels, Jedi, innocents. He embraces the dark side and was even straight up sadistic. He knows he’s a monster and embraces it. It’s not like when Tarkin was gonna blow up Alderaan, he was like, “But dem kids”. His heart was frigid at that point.
Anakin’s redemption was never about making up for his crimes. He was a cold Sith for decades. It’s spiritual, stemming from the ounce of good left in him, his love for his family. It’s never too late to make the right choice. The fact that the line was crossed a long time ago is the point.
To me, that’s an important part of Vader’s character. He’s a villain. I love him in a “he’s terrifying and badass” way, whilst also having a deep connection to his depth as a character, not “what if he’s actually right, society amirite”. I don’t sugar coat his actions.
The Prequels just didn’t do a good enough job getting us to the point where him killing children comes across as anything other then insanely abrupt.
Star Wars, Paleontology, Superhero, Godzilla fan. Darth Vader stan. 22. ADHD. College Student majoring in English Education.
My Star Wars Fan-Edits
Also, having that scene in a post-Columbine world just gives off extra tacky vibes. Turing the Jedi Purge into a “school shooting” maybe isn’t the best approach.