What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 12

Archivist99 said:

Channel72 said:

Sometimes Vader sounds a bit impatient - it’s kind of funny when some Officer has to bother him when he’s inside that meditation chamber, and Vader is like “What is it, General?” You can hear slight impatience in his voice. But he never rages or loses his temper. He’s the complete opposite of Kylo Ren. And definitely way more subdued than Anakin, who was constantly flipping out in both Episode 2 and 3. We can make excuses for this personality difference by saying that over the years Vader became more mature as a Sith and learned to channel his anger in more constructive ways or whatever, but honestly the reality is that Anakin’s portrayal just kind of sucks.

What makes you say that last line? Why wouldn’t ruling the galaxy for 20 years, having settled into your choice to take wrong path lead to a less “flipping out” personality? The “flipping out” was all due to his internal struggle between his better angels (Obi Wan) and the devil in his ear/his baser desires (Palpatine). The struggle is over after he ends the Jedi and loses Padme. He has nothing left but his delusions about bringing order to the galaxy and overthrowing Palpatine (both of which he tries to sell Luke on, and neither of which involve turning away from the Sith path).

You’re not really disagreeing with me here. You seem to agree that Anakin does flip out more than Vader, but you provide an explanation for why you believe this observed difference in behavior is plausible.

All I can say is that your explanation (essentially saying Vader had no reason to flip out once he settled into his role as a powerful Sith) doesn’t really help make Anakin and Vader seem like the same person to me. I mean ultimately this is subjective, but I just can’t really picture Darth Vader saying a lot of the stuff Anakin says with the cadence or wording that Anakin uses. As one example, I can’t imagine Vader saying “Liar!! You’re with him! You brought him here to kill me!” Instead, Vader would just say “You have betrayed me. You have brought Obi Wan to kill me.”, while pointing his finger in Padme’s face.

Spartacus01 said:

I can’t imagine Vader saying “Liar!! You’re with him! You brought him here to kill me!”

No, he just said: “You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor! Take her away!”

Prequel Anakin would have said something like “Traitor!! You’re with the Rebels! You’ve turned against us!! I will not let you get away with this!” or whatever.

He’d also pace back and forth while saying it. Then an Imperial officer would inform him that an escape pod with no lifeforms crashed on the surface of Tatooine. After realizing what planet they were orbiting, Anakin would tell his crew to initiate an orbital bombardment to kill all Sandpeople and also destroy all sand, after suspecting Leia was here as part of some nefarious sand-related plot to overthrow the Empire. He would then yell out to nobody in particular, saying “I now see through their lies! I will make them pay for their coarse, rough and irritating plotting against my Empire!!!1! It’s all Obi Wan’s fault!!”

theprequelsrule said:
I watched TPM for the first time in over a decade a couple of years ago. I was truly astonished at how bad the dialogue was and/or how badly delivered it was.

And why don’t you think the same with regards to the original trilogy?

Dialogue has always been cheesy as hell in Star Wars movies. It’s often badly delivered because the lines themselves are quite ridiculous, and attempts at humor are simply a failure.

I would argue that it has not been such a big issue with the sequels and the spin-offs (which have other issues for the most part), but the OT HANDS DOWN has the worst dialogue out of all SW content.

I, for one, love the prequels more than the OT, because I really enjoy the political subplots that are scattered throughout, something that was sorely lacking in the OT for obvious reasons. It enlarges the scope of the story beyond our main characters.

Yeah, there’s also bad CGI of course…but the OT is nigh unwatchable because of how dated it looks now. I don’t love PM, but I ADORE AOTC (besides the phoned in romance scenes) and really love ROTS as well. All of it was made better by TCW series, in retrospect, but I love the prequels nonetheless.

I’m in my late twenties, and all my friends were very excited when the sequels came out because of how much we loved the prequels. It might be a generational thing, but I feel like people who grew up with the OT are, for the most part, the ones who generally dislike the prequels, and vice-versa. All SW movies have their flaws, but some people are really looking at the originals with rose-tinted glasses. And I do have my gripes with the prequels as well, but some people here genuinely seem to hate them just for the sake of hating them, sometimes for reasons that should make them hate the originals as well.

Qiviuq said:

theprequelsrule said:
I watched TPM for the first time in over a decade a couple of years ago. I was truly astonished at how bad the dialogue was and/or how badly delivered it was.

And why don’t you think the same with regards to the original trilogy?

Dialogue has always been cheesy as hell in Star Wars movies. It’s often badly delivered because the lines themselves are quite ridiculous, and attempts at humor are simply a failure.

I would argue that it has not been such a big issue with the sequels and the spin-offs (which have other issues for the most part), but the OT HANDS DOWN has the worst dialogue out of all SW content.

I, for one, love the prequels more than the OT, because I really enjoy the political subplots that are scattered throughout, something that was sorely lacking in the OT for obvious reasons. It enlarges the scope of the story beyond our main characters.

Yeah, there’s also bad CGI of course…but the OT is nigh unwatchable because of how dated it looks now. I don’t love PM, but I ADORE AOTC (besides the phoned in romance scenes) and really love ROTS as well. All of it was made better by TCW series, in retrospect, but I love the prequels nonetheless.

I’m in my late twenties, and all my friends were very excited when the sequels came out because of how much we loved the prequels. It might be a generational thing, but I feel like people who grew up with the OT are, for the most part, the ones who generally dislike the prequels, and vice-versa. All SW movies have their flaws, but some people are really looking at the originals with rose-tinted glasses. And I do have my gripes with the prequels as well, but some people here genuinely seem to hate them just for the sake of hating them, sometimes for reasons that should make them hate the originals as well.

Looking at the rating data on imdb, which gives you the option to look at age groups, reveals the generational effect you argue explains the difference in perception of the OT and PT are overstated. The 18-29 group rates the OT an 8.5, 8.7 and an 8.2, while the 45+ crowd gives the OT an 8.8, 8.8, and an 8.3. The 18-29 group rates the PT an 6.5, 6.5, and a 7.8, while the 45+ crowd gives the PT an 6.3, 6.5, and a 7.3. So the perception for both generations is pretty similar with both clearly preferring the OT. Neither generation hates the PT on average, though the slightly higher preference for the OT for the 45+ generation likely means there are slightly more who dislike the PT among that generation.

Never mind.

This is my first post here, I have been browsing for years off and on. I love the more mature discussion.

I enjoyed the prequels in general but I don’t think they were great by any means. I like Episode 3 the most and thought it was an interesting take but the execution fell short.
Like a lot of people, I imagined something entirely different, from the aesthetics to the plot and everything else. From an aesthetic look, I thought everything from the battle of Geonosis until the end of ROTS matched what I thought. Episode 1 and parts of 2 felt like an entirely different franchise from the looks category.

I had a pretty young mind when speculation began but I thought a few things:

From the ESB novel, the Jedi and the republic fought Mandalorians and their clone armies. However, when Princess Leia told Luke he is too short for a stormtrooper, I thought stormtroopers could have been clones as well. It was called “the clone wars” not “clones vs droids”

I figured the emperor played both sides, but thought there was possibly a sith council/ order (at the time I had read the word but didn’t know what it meant, I just called them bad/dark Jedi) For me the rule of 2 was interesting but overall was just too much added to an already convoluted plot. I didn’t think there would be thousands of Jedi, maybe a few hundred at the most. I just assumed the emperor would use both sides to eliminate the Jedi and sith, including potentially his own master.

I also thought we would see open field battles, Jedi and troops vs dark side user and troops.

Lastly the portrayal of Darth Vader as a young man missed the mark. The speech patterns didn’t line up very much. I also thought Vader, based on some of his OT dialogue, would have joined the dark side out of a desire to bring order to the galaxy. Never would I have thought that he was crying over a woman, and literally killing kids over trying so save his wife. Really odd and didn’t line with up with his original portrayal. I thought padme would have been a really minor character who left anakin when he was starting to get weird and she didn’t tell him she was pregnant. She has the kids, leia remembers her, and after her body returns to its pre pregnancy weight, she confronts him or whatever and she dies.

I have other thoughts but maybe another time, this post getting a wordy.

Ok, it’s good to be here. Love the forum.

James1027 said:

This is my first post here, I have been browsing for years off and on. I love the more mature discussion.

Ok, it’s good to be here. Love the forum.

Welcome to the forum community! Yeah, that’s what I love about this place. You get a wide range of perspectives here. And I’m always interested to hear takes on the prequels from people who had time to speculate on them before they came out.

So Episode 1 came out when I was 6 and while I distinctly remember the experience of seeing it in theaters, I don’t remember whether or not I had seen the original trilogy before or after it. I only know that by the time it had come out on VHS, I had seen the original trilogy. I really enjoyed the prequels as a kid and just kind of took the prequels at face value with regards to Anakin’s transformation into Darth Vader and it worked for me. In fact, it wasn’t until I left for college that I knew people even disliked the prequels my dad liked them, my brother liked them, and most of my friends that were into Star Wars liked them, so it was really a shock to see how much hatred the prequels had gotten. Of course, watching them today, well 3 years ago was the last time I saw all of the prequels in their entirety, it’s easy to see that they aren’t great movies. Phantom Menace is ok I guess, the main problems were too much juvenile humor, and a lot of the movie is really slow and plodding. The story on paper is really good, but in execution, it’s just kind of boring to watch. There are exciting moments, I liked the underwater sequence, their flight from Naboo, the pod race is great and I think the entire climax is really fun, but they’re just too far and in between. Attack of the Clones was much better as it’s not boring to sit through. The pacing is fine, and the action was upped, but Anakin is pretty grating early on in the film. Revenge of the Sith is I think a legitimately good movie it’s got its issues with acting and some character moments being really forced, but overall I enjoy watching the movie.

With regards to Anakin’s transformation into Darth Vader I don’t really have an issue with it. I think most people’s complaints are that what ends up being his main motivation should have been his side motivation, and vice versa. I think what really sabotages this is that the romance between Anakin and Padme for a lot of people isn’t well handled or executed. Personally outside of the first act of Attack of the Clones, I don’t really have a problem with their romance. Sure the dialogue is really cringy but I actually don’t hate their romance on Naboo and I was really surprised at, when during my last watch-through, how much I liked it. I think years of hearing people shit on it, and not having watched the movie unedited in years eventually overrode my own opinion on it. Don’t get me wrong I do think most of the complaints about their romance are valid, but there’s something about it that just clicks for me. I don’t really know how to explain it or understand why I like it myself, maybe it’s nostalgia or maybe it’s that I have a soft spot for that type of melodrama, but for me, it works.

I think the main thing is that George Lucas’s directions for Hayden’s acting are just awful and they make scenes that should work fail. His conversation with Padme, while she’s packing for her trip, is one of them. His thoughts that while he looks at Obi-Wan like he’s his father, but feels constrained by his teaching and that he’s being held back. And that he wants more even though he knows he shouldn’t would be really compelling, but because of the directing and acting it feels like a childish tantrum. We get a really good look at Anakin’s own political views during his romance scene with Padme on Naboo, but it’s sandwiched between romance stuff people hate. It’s one of the reasons why the novelizations for the prequel trilogy are superior to the movies, it takes away the poor acting and directing that obfuscates the storytelling and character work that’s actually going on.

So Anakin’s reason for turning to the dark side being about trying to protect the galaxy or to gain more power because he’s frustrated by the Jedi seemingly holding him back are in Revenge of the Sith, but because they’re shown as side motivations and the romance hasn’t been done well since it’s the main motivation I can understand why it doesn’t work for so many people. Maybe it’s also because I read the novelization for Revenge of the Sith before the movie came out that some of the character work the novel does might also be contributing to it as well, but I thought the execution of it in movie 3 works really well. It also helps that the scene preceding his decision is kept 100% silent and focuses on the facial acting of Padme and Anakin, that makes it works for me.

Following up on my previous reply, episodes 1 and 2 were basically wasted exposition. Could have very easily made the revenge of the sith opening battle the start of the prequel trilogy and extend the timeline/era to 7+ hours for 3 movies.

One of the only consequential happenings in 1+2 was the clone army and that was oddly left entirely unexplained. The Republic just uses a random clone army that the Jedi council said they didn’t authorize and the template is fighting for the other side? Who paid for it? Who trained them? It was a subpar storyline and wasn’t believable in regards to rules of the universe we are used to. I know, it was explained in comics cartoons etc. but something that big deserves more resolution and explanation on screen.

G&G-Fan said:

I do think it’d be weird to make a prequel trilogy without Obi-Wan finding Anakin and bringing him in to become a Jedi as it was explicitly mentioned in ROTJ. Having Anakin be brought into the Jedi on-screen also allows us an organic introduction to them and the Republic (since we’d be from the perspective of someone from the Outer Rim) through our protagonist.

Yeah, I get that sentiment and what you say makes sense from a story telling perspective in many ways. I just thought there was too much going on in the story and anakins character ended up being disjointed through 3 movies.

Qiviuq said:

I would argue that it has not been such a big issue with the sequels and the spin-offs (which have other issues for the most part), but the OT HANDS DOWN has the worst dialogue out of all SW content.

That opinion is… unique. Kind of fascinating to me this opinion exists at all. But of course what constitutes good dialogue is subjective and difficult to argue about. Plus most attempts to demonstrate good dialogue versus bad dialogue with examples will ultimately be dismissed as cherry-picking.

The most objective thing I can say is that, the OT dialogue is on average, very different stylistically than the PT.

The OT definitely has some really corny dialogue. It has a small amount of excellent, or above-average dialogue. (I think Yoda in ESB has the most above-average high-quality dialogue.) But the majority of the dialogue is just serviceable, designed to move the plot from point A to point B, often with added snappiness and snark. A lot of it is elevated by the performances, especially with Harrison Ford.

For me, the best aspect of OT dialogue is the back and forth character interactions. I particularly love Han Solo’s interactions with Leia and Threepio. (“Sir, if I may venture an opinion…” … “I’m not really interested in your opinion Threepio.”) Leia probably has the highest number of really corny lines that could only be written in the 1970s.

Like the OT, most of the dialogue in the Prequels is simply serviceable, designed to get us from A to B. But a lot of it is a jarring blend of overly juvenile and overly melodramatic. Like, Anakin uses the word “grumpy”, then a few minutes later says “You are in my very soul, tormenting me.”

Broadly speaking, what sets Prequel dialogue apart from OT dialogue is that it’s way more stylized: going from Saturday morning kids show to operatic melodrama. (The OT has these extremes as well, but in much smaller quantities.) Plus, the PT has very little of the grounded, realistic yet punchy back and forth character interaction that was so prevalent in the OT. Prequel characters simply don’t say things like “Don’t everyone thank me at once” or “That’s what I’m trying to tell you, kid. It ain’t there. It’s been totally blown away.” Ewan McGregor comes the closest to some version of this, with his observational wit and sarcasm - but unfortunately most of his dialogue is of the “getting from A to B” variety.

I’ve often wondered if watching the Prequels is a better experience if you’re a non-native English speaker, or if you watch it in a different language, so that the worst tendencies of the dialogue don’t necessarily register as overly childish or obnoxious.

I’ve often wondered if watching the Prequels is a better experience if you’re a non-native English speaker, or if you watch it in a different language, so that the worst tendencies of the dialogue don’t necessarily register as overly childish or obnoxious.

From my experience, having lived years in both the United States and abroad, having attended conventions in multiple countries and all, Prequel reception is way, way more positive if you’re not from an English speaking country. You stop evaluating the lines by the quality you perceive in them, and only focus on what they’re trying to convey to the story, and the lines in the PT are very competent in that regard. So people watching the movie dubbed or subbed get a very different perception of the characters and story, probably the one Lucas wanted everyone to.

Omni said:

From my experience, having lived years in both the United States and abroad, having attended conventions in multiple countries and all, Prequel reception is way, way more positive if you’re not from an English speaking country.

Dubbing in some nuance and gravitas would help a lot of the characters in the PT… just like those fanedits that changed Jar-Jar into an alien language and gave him intelligent lines.

I gotta say… I watched the entire dub of Backstroke of the West some time ago and it was still really boring. In fact that might have been the last time I watched any of these. I was tempted to go back at some stage recently but… eh. I have other things to do besides let SW give me a headache.

Omni said:
From my experience, having lived years in both the United States and abroad, having attended conventions in multiple countries and all, Prequel reception is way, way more positive if you’re not from an English speaking country. You stop evaluating the lines by the quality you perceive in them, and only focus on what they’re trying to convey to the story, and the lines in the PT are very competent in that regard. So people watching the movie dubbed or subbed get a very different perception of the characters and story, probably the one Lucas wanted everyone to.

Yeah, that’s what I suspected. Which is why, for native English speakers, the Prequels might be easily improved to a certain extent by simply dubbing over certain characters with different performances or lines, as some fan edits have done. (I couldn’t bring myself to dub over Ian McDiarmid though…)

That would definitely help - but I also think the Prequels have a lot of fundamental problems at the structural/writing level that are impossible to fix without entirely rewriting them. But at least a dubbed version would potentially make certain scenes less painful to watch.