darklordoftech said:
TV's Frink said:
darklordoftech said:
Tack said: (get over it, man!)
Getting over it would be like preferring the prequels over the OT.
Here's an idea...instead of getting over it, just stop repeating it. We all get it.
We also get how bad the Anakin/Padme romance is.
Please start using "reply with quote" properly.
dan76 said:
The fact that the films were made at all. Prequels are never a good idea, as if a film is successful enough to warrant a sequel it obviously means it doesn't need one.
By that line of thought, Lucas should never have made ESB.
I'm going to repeat some things that have been mentioned already, but I have some that haven't been brought up yet.
Anakin should have been a different character altogether. He should have been someone we could respect; a real hero instead of a powerful, out-of-control whiny kid. The whole "chosen one" idea should have been scrapped. Anakin should have been a normal Jedi, corrupted by a desire for power (though this would only have begun as a result of some tragedy in the middle of Episode II--his mother's death could have been part of it). If the Battle of Naboo had still happened, he shouldn't have been involved in it at all and IMO he should have been a background character in Episode I, and become gradually more prominent.
I hated the whole Padmé/Anakin romance. It seemed too forced and it shouldn't have been such a big part of Episodes II and III. If it had been kept fairly background like in the OT, then it wouldn't have been so bad.
Jar Jar. He could have been such a different character, but everything about him was goofy and retarded.
The bad guys were just for looks. If we had explored their characters a bit more, they would have been far more convincing characters.
Lightsabre fights should have had more dialogue. Fast-paced action would have been OK for me, but it should have been interspersed with the Sith taunting his Jedi opponent and trying to make him lose control. If more of the fights had been done along the lines of Anakin vs. Dooku in Episode III, it would have been far better (I think--I haven't seen Episode III for a while).
The prequels should not have been treated like a reboot of Star Wars. PT technology should have looked less advanced than OT technology. The SE should have given us more advanced displays like Adywan did so that they would be able to use slightly more advanced technology, but it should not have been more advanced than the OT's tech.
I think Lucas and ILM forgot about the fact that people loved that the Star Wars universe looked lived in in the OT. Everything in the PT looks new and clean, and if there is dirt it is CG dirt and thus looks fake. Far too much focus was on the visual effects and eye candy in the PT and thus it fell into the trap of other Sci-Fi movies that the OT had avoided (and that's another thing: the PT was too much science fiction whereas the OT was space fantasy).
The PT tried to tie everything together and by doing so effectively shrunk the Star Wars universe to a tenth of the size. C-3PO being built by Darth Vader? That's garbage. Everything also seems to revolve around Tatooine, which is supposedly an insignificant planet no one's ever heard of, way out on the edge of the galaxy. The only Star Wars movie that doesn't feature Tatooine is ESB (unless it does too...). Not only that, but everything happens in the same general area of Tatooine and we even see Jabba in TPM. Boba Fett loses a lot of his mystique and is way too involved in the main story. George apparently lost his ability to invent new characters when he wrote the PT.
The Jedi should not have been so well known. In the OT, Han has never heard of the Jedi or the Force, yet he was something like 14 when the Republic fell, Luke had never heard of the Force, Imperial officers scoffed at Darth Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" yet one would think they would have heard about the kinds of feats Jedi had been capable of. Also, Jedi should not have been so powerful. In the PT they had way too few limitations.
CGI was over-used.
Dialogue was terrible.
The prequels should have been made so that that Star Wars could be watched in chronological order. Now the surprise of Darth Vader being Luke and Leia's father is ruined in Episode III, Jabba's reveal is ruined, Boba Fett and Slave I are no longer unique to Episodes V and VI, we see Jawas, Tuskens, and Sandcrawlers in Episode II, the Emperor is too prominent in the PT--his appearance should have been a shock in Episode V, etc.
The prequels spoiled a lot of continuity. Padmé should not have died in childbirth, the Force should not have had a scientific explanations, etc.
There are so many, but one that is glaring to me: Padmé. How much contempt must Lucas have for his own character?
Padmé changes completely based upon whatever whim Lucas has at the moment: in the first film she's a 14 year old Queen. That makes sense, that sort of thing happens in a constitutional monarchy.
Then, in the second film because Lucas changed focus on how Palpatine was to come to power, we learn that she was the democratically elected Queen, with a finite term. This means that the population of Naboo elected a teenager to be responsible for the governance of their planet — because that makes so much sense.
And then, in the last film, this supposedly “strong” female character dies of a broken heart. This is one outdated and disgusting trope. News flash: Anakin Skywalker is not the only schmuck around, and plenty of women work through that. As someone who was raised by a single mother who ran her own business during the 80s, this was something that actively offended me.
Can anybody imagine Leia Organa “dying of a broken heart?” Seriously?
“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”
There is nothing wrong with a democratically elected monarchy.
There are examples on our own planet.
The Naboo are aliens so maybe they venerate the wisdom of little girls in the same way we venerate the wisdom of of men with long beards from the bronze age.
As I said earlier a good writer could have got those sorts of things either to work or vanish.
George can't seem to do much of either.
Lightsabers were everywhere. They ceased to be interesting and Jedi became generic.
RicOlie_2 said:
dan76 said:
The fact that the films were made at all. Prequels are never a good idea, as if a film is successful enough to warrant a sequel it obviously means it doesn't need one.
By that line of thought, Lucas should never have made ESB.
And everything else afterward was shit; maybe he has a point.
NeverarGreat said:
One danger of episodes 7-9 would be to focus on the story of Luke, or (god forbid) Anakin. The story should be re-framed to be about the Skywalker family as a whole, with a focus on the younger generation. Not to say that they shouldn't play a part, but they should never distract from the new leads.
Reposted because of this.
From the article:
"Arndt is said to have focused on the offspring of Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill), Han Solo (Harrison Ford) and Princess Leia (Carrie Fisher), with the original trilogy heroes taking on supporting roles. Abrams, however, wanted Episode VII to focus on the classic trio of characters, so audiences could have one more chance to enjoy them before a fitting send-off. The new characters, the offspring, will now be in supporting roles, according to these sources, and take center stage in Episode VIII and IX. Some characters have disappeared from the Arndt script and new ones are being drafted."
This is Indy 4 all over again.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
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Another thing that went wrong: Several things that were said in the OT that referred to the past were contradicted in the PT or left out:
- "Damn fool idealistic crusade". I suppose that this refers to the Clone Wars, but what was the "idealistic" part? What was the "crusade" part? It was a war, but there wasn't much of a movement for anything - instead the Jedi were against anything that could lead to war.
- Leia remembering her mother.
- "Yoda, the Jedi Master that taught me"
Bingowings said:
Having Yoda in the PT was a mistake in my opinion and having him be a saber throwing acrobat was a disaster the series will be hard pushed to recover from.
No, I think that Yoda being in the PT was absolutely compulsory. Just has Luke is compulsory in the ST. There are too strong hints in the OT to what the character did/will do. I think that more fans would have got outraged if Yoda wasn't in the PT than they are of how Yoda was portrayed.
I agree about the saber fights. The fight in AOTC was a very cheap flirt with the fans and the fight against the Emperor in ROTS is a memory that I prefer to suppress.
The OT had Yoda set up as being primarilya great teacher and we don't see much of that. I think he would have been more interesting if we only got glimpses of his abilities in using the Force.
Dooku would have been so much more tragic/potent a character if he was the same character Liam Neeson played in TPM leaving Obi-wan to do all the ground work of finding Anakin.
Wow. I have never thought of that ... Very interesting. What if Qui-Gon was only badly hurt in TPM. The pain and suffering would make it easier for him to succumb the dark side, and also motivate him to seek out the Sith for revenge. He was already somewhat of a rogue who wouldn't have stayed on the "right" path just because doctrine said he should. His wounds and his disobedience against the order would have kept him away from official Jedi duties, giving him time to pursue the Sith on his own .. and still have Obi-Wan be Anakin's teacher.
Even though Obi-Wan was Anakin's teacher, Qui-Gon would naturally have more access to and influence over Anakin than Palpatine had.
Tack said:
The biggest problem is that, as is, the films are about a bad egg who needed that last push to get to the side of evil, not a noble soul seduced by evil.
I am of the same opinion. For more information read my signature.
真実
Darth Lars said:
Bingowings said:
Having Yoda in the PT was a mistake in my opinion and having him be a saber throwing acrobat was a disaster the series will be hard pushed to recover from.
No, I think that Yoda being in the PT was absolutely compulsory. Just has Luke is compulsory in the ST.
Yes.
Yoda's appearance is one of the 'surprises' of ESB that the PT breaks.
Luke is anticipating a great warrior and doesn't recognise the Jedi master when he is right under his nose. We as the audience are supposed to share in that surprise the first time around.
It adds to the plot of the OT that Vader believes he has killed the final Jedi in ANH (with the Senate gone and the final Jedi dead the Empire will, with the destruction of the Rebel base will be the supreme power of the Galaxy).
So for him to know Yoda (not to mention know him as a renowned swordsman, to hope to surpass) breaks key aspects of both those characters.
Tarkin is sure Ben has just died of old age but Vader warns him not to underestimate the Force. I can't imagine he would be that cautious about Obi-Wan but assume his Master's teacher is dead.
Like Luke we as an audience are meant to draw the same conclusions as Vader. If we know Yoda is still alive it diminishes the tension caused by the potential elimination of opposition against the Empire.
In ESB Yoda is dismissive of violence and teaches Luke to not be reliant on weapons. He isn't a martial being like Ben and never demands Vader's death (like Ben does), only that Luke faces his fear. So having him engage in battles and fight with a sword weakens that persona as does the Emperor having anything as mundane as a sword.
I wouldn't have Qui-Gon/Dooku fall to the Dark Side so to speak but rather have him react to the Sith danger differently which Palpatine takes advantage of.
I certainly wouldn't have him firing lighting around (Palpatine needs to keep that skill under his cowl).
Lucas was essentially writing a sequel but setting it in the past.
If the character names were changed and it was set in the New Republic after the fall of the Empire the PT would be a little less annoying as it wouldn't trample over the groundwork laid down by the OT.
Another example is seeing Fett without a mask.
Linking Fett to the clones was pure fan service but you could forgive it if it didn't smash up the mystique of the character (a mystique first dribbled over in ROTJ with his ridiculous death).
The Troopers and Fett are never seen unmasked in the OT.
Masks aren't just costume details they add/define the characters as mystery men or dehumanised. The unmasking of Vader was justified by his character arc and final (he didn't put the mask back on and try to be mysterious again).
If Boba had been the template (no dad) and the clones were perpetually masked the fan service would be less onerous. A good writer who knew how the OT worked would have made these sort of adjustments.
generalfrevious said:
RicOlie_2 said:
dan76 said:
The fact that the films were made at all. Prequels are never a good idea, as if a film is successful enough to warrant a sequel it obviously means it doesn't need one.
By that line of thought, Lucas should never have made ESB.
And everything else afterward was shit; maybe he has a point.
Er sorry, auto correct changed prequel to sequel... Didn't catch it.
NeverarGreat said:
"Arndt is said to have focused on the offspring of Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill), Han Solo (Harrison Ford) and Princess Leia (Carrie Fisher), with the original trilogy heroes taking on supporting roles. Abrams, however, wanted Episode VII to focus on the classic trio of characters, so audiences could have one more chance to enjoy them before a fitting send-off. The new characters, the offspring, will now be in supporting roles, according to these sources, and take center stage in Episode VIII and IX.
They should so have focused on the offspring
Let's hope Ardnt's draft leaks.
I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.
Nobody has seen these films yet so assuming that the plot is one way or the other is pointless though speculation is always fun.
Bingowings said:
There is nothing wrong with a democratically elected monarchy.
There are examples on our own planet.
The Naboo are aliens so maybe they venerate the wisdom of little girls in the same way we venerate the wisdom of of men with long beards from the bronze age.
As I said earlier a good writer could have got those sorts of things either to work or vanish.
George can't seem to do much of either.
My problem isn't so much that it is a democratically elected position. I do, however, question how much intelligence goes into electing somebody to a very powerful position who is too young to understand pressures of their electorate and consequences. The idea that this could be “trained” is ridiculous. My issue with this idea is only supported by the fact that Padmé is so easily manipulated in the movies. Ultimately, due to the inexperience and naiveté of one kid, an entire galaxy fell into the hands of tyranny.
“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”
Once again you are placing a human contemporary Western template over a fictional alien culture from a galaxy far far away a long time in the past.
If you have ever tried to get a girl of that age to eat sprouts or tidy their room you may see a certain wisdom in having such a being as the diplomatic valve between her people and the other peoples of the Republic.
A good writer would work it out or dump it.
Bingowings said:
Once again you are placing a human contemporary Western template over a fictional alien culture from a galaxy far far away a long time in the past.
If you have ever tried to get a girl of that age to eat sprouts or tidy their room you may see a certain wisdom in having such a being as the diplomatic valve between her people and the other peoples of the Republic.
A good writer would work it out or dump it.
But we are talking about a film produced by a contemporary Western human that reflects Western values (a bit too much, one might say, what with the blatant racism on display) for a contemporary Western human audience. I guess the key point here is “good writer.” With the prequel trilogy being so much about the ultimate fate of the galaxy, this was too important an element of the films not to have been dealt with. If there was, indeed, a cultural reason for such an arrangement, such a thing should have been established instead of mentioned offhand.
“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”
Why do we translate ancient beards with wisdom but modern beards with villainy?
There are valid theories but they don't necessarily make sense.
RicOlie_2 said:
By that line of thought, Lucas should never have made ESB.
Now we're getting somewhere.
Darth Lars said:
No, I think that Yoda being in the PT was absolutely compulsory. Just has Luke is compulsory in the ST. There are too strong hints in the OT to what the character did/will do. I think that more fans would have got outraged if Yoda wasn't in the PT than they are of how Yoda was portrayed.
How about an exchange like this:
Anakin: "I don't understand why we're just waiting here! There won't be a Republic if we don't attack! "
Obi-wan: "Our orders are to stand by."
Anakin: (stews in frustration)
Obi-wan: "It is at times like this that I meditate on what my master taught me, about patience."
Anakin: "You've never mentioned your master before. Who was he?"
Obi-wan: "He was wise and powerful, old even when I first knew him. It was because of him that I became a Jedi."
Anakin: "I'd like to meet him someday."
Obi-wan: "You won't. He was old even when I knew him, living on an uninhabited planet in the outer rim. I was the last of his students. He will train Jedi no more."
That's all I required from the prequels about Yoda. Just a bit of explanation, if that.
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Neverar, why don't you go into writing?
Here I am, a guy who can't write decent dialogue to save his life, trying to write a four-part epic series, and here you are able to write something like that!
I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.
Aw, you're too kind.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
Actually, Neverar, that would have been awesome...though not so awesome for someone like me who saw the prequels first, but still awesome.
No armies of lightsaber-wielders. Armies of lightsaber wielders look more like "glowstick raves" (to quote Bingowings) than like battles and they make lightsabers and their wielders generic.